House of Commons Hansard #41 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was process.

Topics

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Will those members who object to the motion please rise in their place.

And more than 15 members having risen:

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Pursuant to Standing Order 26(2), the motion is deemed to have been withdrawn.

(Motion deemed withdrawn.)

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Stephen Harper Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, I took great interest in the comments of the secretary of state.

I would like to make a couple of comments. I was interested in the fact that there was the motion to extend the sitting, once again another attempt to rush this bill through.

This bill was tabled in the House on Friday and is being debated for the first time today. There has been virtually no public discussion. The public discussions the process allows for are the independent commission hearings that the bill seeks to terminate.

I find this all very interesting in that we have had a number of speakers today and this is really the first debater from another political party other than the hon. member for Kamloops who gave a very reasoned and considered intervention. We had the first two speakers from the government and from the Official Opposition. It is not questions and comments, not true debate. They just state their position. Since then we have been talking here to ourselves.

I find it peculiar this great effort we are going through to make sure that the public does not have a right to go to the hearing process.

Perhaps the hon. member could explain to us precisely why that is such an important public policy objective, why it is so important that we not get some reaction from the public before we continue to debate this particular issue?

The member raised some of problems, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others. He raised two complaints, particularly in relation to the province of New Brunswick. This bears some examination. On the one hand he noted the radical changes that the commission has proposed in some parts of New Brunswick because of population shifts. On the other hand he raised concerns about increasing the number of seats in the House of Commons.

I suppose if we were ultimately to revise the formula, which would require a revision to the senatorial clause, so that we were able to resist the increase in seats then we would have fewer seats in provinces like New Brunswick and we would have even more radical changes to the boundaries. This is what I find particularly disconcerting. The various reasons that are being used, not in this House but sort of in the hallways, for stopping this process are a complete contradiction to each other in terms of the results that they would bring about.

Besides his commenting on the necessity of killing this, as a government minister would the hon. member favour having a public policy objective to this whole thing that the public would support limiting the number of seats so that we can proceed to at least give the public some reason why we would be interested in killing Bill C-18 after we have spent $5 million on the process?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Fernand Robichaud Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not our intention to rush the bill, in the words of the hon. member who just spoke. We simply want to avoid a process like the one now under way, that is holding hearings where members or representatives of organizations, associations and municipalities wishing to make submissions to commissions must give notice, prepare their submissions and then appear before the commissions, the operations of which we are proposing to abolish. If we suspend the entire process, all of this work will have been for nothing. We simply want to save money by putting a stop to the process as soon as possible.

As for the public's participation, we want their input. We want the public to have an opportunity to express their views because when the matter comes before the House committee, the public will certainly be asked to propose ways of changing the process. The committee will also likely consider the possibility of capping the number of seats in the House at the current level of 295. Clearly, this is what the Reform Party members want, but the government is not prepared at this time to say that it will cap the number of seats at 295.

First, we want to get the public's opinion on this process, if it comes to that. I assure you that we want to encourage public input in the readjustment of electoral boundaries any way we can.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have a comment and question for the minister. This is a bit of déjà vu. When looking at the history books a very similar incident happened in 1974, 20 years back in Canadian history. At that time a number of MPs, the majority being Liberal MPs on the government side, were not happy with redistribution.

I have not had time to read all the Hansards from back then to find out what all the reasons were, but the bottom line was that members were not happy with redistribution and so they interfered with the process. As a result 18 new seats were created in Canada.

We have no indication from this government that by suspending the current process and the commissions in place there is goodwill from that side. The purpose of the suspension is to cap the number of seats in the House of Commons.

I do not think the government has even considered all the ramifications of capping seats in the House of Commons. Perhaps that is a subject that really needs to be debated at greater length in the House.

Bill C-18 calls for the commissions currently in place to cease to exist upon the passing of Bill C-18. Once the suspension is completed, some 24 months later, 60 days later new commissions are to be appointed. Certainly the government is opening itself up to allegations of patronage. We hope that would not be its purpose in suspending this and causing these commissions to cease to exist. However, the allegations could come.

Therefore, if the government wanted to suspend the work of these commissions would it reinstate those commissions and have them resume their work at the point they were at when the suspension took place, thus saving the $5 million?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Fernand Robichaud Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Speaker, if we want to suspend the current process, it is because we intend to make a number of changes. It would be hard to say: "We are going to suspend the process for 24 months, but after 24 months, we are going to start right back at the beginning, without taking into account the committee's findings or recommendations". I do not see how we can predict the outcome of the committee's study. It would be like saying to people: "We do not need your input. You have nothing to say, everything has already been decided".

As for the hon. member's concern that we could be tempted to resort to patronage, I can assure him that this is not what we have in mind. The process for selecting commissions is not open to this type of action and we have no intention of making changes in that regard. However, the committee, which is made up of representatives of all parties in this House, could make all kinds of recommendations and observations.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Hugh Hanrahan Reform Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will begin by expressing my opposition to Bill C-18. I also acknowledge the fact that the Liberal government must truly be committed to deficit reduction. I can make this statement because any government willing to scrap an electoral boundary commission report that has cost Canadians nearly $5 million must be committed to fiscal responsibility.

To make matters even more convincing, the government will be asking Canadian taxpayers to go through this process all over again even though the present commissions' report has not been tainted by any political influence. Nor is there any outcry from Canadians regarding the current redistribution process other than the fact that they do not want the number of seats in Parliament to increase.

Perhaps the most troubling aspect of the government's plan is that there is no strong defence for interfering with the present process before determining if the public hearings are not successful. We can also see that throughout Canada's history the issue of electoral boundary redistribution has been a contentious issue. This hostility is derived from the very premise that those who have power are never willing to relinquish their hold on it.

I think the idea of politicians redrawing their own boundaries lies at the very core of a serious problem in Canada. That problem is a lack of trust by the public regarding politicians. It is evident therefore that this government does not see that Canadians are unhappy with the entire process in which politicians have been doing their business. Canadians want change. They want a new style of openness. They want a new style of fairness. This type of legislation can only be viewed as regressive.

This House was given the absolute right to redraw the electoral boundaries at Confederation. However because of the contentious nature of electoral redistribution which I have already mentioned Parliament has agreed to share this responsibility of redistribution with the electoral boundaries commissions created in 1964.

Since the creation of these electoral boundaries commissions public perception that there are not considerable amounts of political interference to the readjustment process has diminished. This political interference which took place before the creation of the electoral boundaries commissions was an attempt to assure as far as possible the re-election of the members of the governing party.

This is absolutely wrong. I hope that this government is not travelling down the same path of early governments.

It is important to note that since 1964 while many politicians have been unhappy with the outcome of redistributions, there has rarely been the concern of political interference. This is for the simple fact that these commissions are non-partisan.

There are 11 electoral boundaries commissions in Canada, one in each of the provinces and one in the Northwest Territories. These commissions consist of three members: a chairman who is appointed by the chief justice of the province from among judges in that province and the other two members of the commission are appointed by the Speaker of the House. These two individuals are usually university professors or non-elected officials of the legislative assemblies.

The commission looks primarily at the number of people in the province, not political partisanship. They do not consider how the changes will affect one party over another. In fact the largest criticism of the commissions is they do not consider enough non-political information. Many times they overlook the common community interests or community identities.

It is important to ensure that redistributed boundaries correspond as closely as possible to the national quotient while also taking into account community interests and the historical pattern of an electoral district.

These factors then will enable the commissions to properly manage the geographic size of districts with sparsely populated areas. The commissions are allowed to deviate from the provincial average by plus or minus 25 per cent. This allowance then allows them to accommodate the human and geographic factors.

Another issue that is troublesome for me is that in 1985 Parliament passed the Representation Act which set out a formula for redistribution. It was a constitutional amendment which ensured that no province could have fewer seats than the 1985 level of representation regardless of the population of that province.

The exception is P.E.I. which can have no fewer MPs than senators. We therefore have done away with the premise of absolute representation by population. The government would like to suspend the Representation Act and attempt to develop a new proposal for the consideration of the House.

Let us start with the basic premise of rep by pop. Within the concept of representation by population emerges the concept of equality of vote. Any notion of equality of rep by pop may permit if countered by the fact that the current and historical development of representation in Canada has only partially been based on the notion of representation by population.

Since Confederation, Canada has developed a system with respect to electoral representation whereby the heavily populated provinces retain a majority of the seats within the House of Commons while the less populated provinces receive an adequate number of seats to ensure representation.

By no means does the federal government reflect the notion of representation by population in its purest form. Rep by pop has been altered in order to guarantee a minimum number of seats within the House to less populated provinces so that they do not become under represented if their population base decreases.

Thus while the principle of representation by population may be said to lie at the heart of the electoral apportionment in Canada, it has from the beginning been altered by other factors.

Due to Canada's vast geographic size and regional differences, a modified version of representation by population has emerged. It is therefore determined that the equality of votes guaranteed to Canadians is one of relative equality and not

absolute equality. Therefore we do not have equality of voting power but rather relative equality of voting power.

This relative equality is not just within the provinces but between the provinces as well. For example, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick constituting 6.1 per cent of the population are guaranteed 7 per cent of the seats. Alberta and British Columbia comprise just under 22 per cent of the population while we are entitled to only 20 per cent of the seats.

The west is not only under represented in Parliament, we are also under represented in the Senate. How can a region of Canada that has less than 11 per cent of the population have over 28 per cent of the Senate seats while western Canada has over 29 per cent of the Canadian population with only 23 per cent of senate seats. These injustices must be rectified. The west wants in.

Canada is a country of many regions and there are probably as many definitions of regionalism as there are people defining it. Regionalism is not some sort of disease to be stamped out. Rather it is a healthy manifestation but lacking a healthy institutional outlet.

The only true significant political failure of the Canadian experience is its chronic inability to solve those regional tensions. The Senate was established to protect the interests of the provinces. Yet, for too long western Canada has felt that its interests have not been adequately represented in the federal Parliament. The National Energy Program is just one example and the possibility of a carbon tax implemented at source is another.

The Canadian Senate lacks legitimacy in the eyes of many Canadians because it is an appointed body that runs counter to the fundamental Canadian belief that democratic governments should be conducted by an elected rather than an appointed body. What Canadians need is a triple-E Senate, an effective, elected and equal Senate. A reformed Senate will not just benefit one province or one region. It will help build a better and stronger Canada.

We should have an elected Parliament based solely on representation by population with a constant number of members of Parliament. This concept will only work if we have an elected Senate to which all regions of Canada have an equal number of senators.

This would ensure that Parliament reflects the notion of one man, one vote, and allows the Senate to reflect the regional interests of our nation.

Moving on to specific recommendations of the recent electoral boundaries commission which has recommended that Calgary be given one additional seat for a total of seven, while Edmonton in Alberta would remain at six and 26 respectively, it was encouraging that the commission did recognize that Calgary and Edmonton have traditionally the same number of representatives in Ottawa.

Because the number of electoral districts for Edmonton remains at six the proposed changes to the boundaries are relatively minor. The changes that will be made to my riding are not extensive and I feel that they have been done in a just manner.

Edmonton-Strathcona's population will be almost 16 per cent above the provincial average yet it is well within the established plus or minus 25 per cent deviation.

Although I do not wholeheartedly agree with this plus or minus 25 per cent as an absolute figure, I do agree that there needs to be some allowance in riding size because of urban and rural differences. However I am not convinced that the deviation presently allowed has not been picked arbitrarily.

Why should it not be plus or minus 20 per cent, 15 per cent, 10 per cent? However, this is an issue that I will leave to debate another day and I will continue with the specific changes to Edmonton-Strathcona recommended by the commission.

The southern tip of Edmonton-Strathcona will be lost to Edmonton Southwest while we gain the northeastern part of Edmonton Southeast riding. Although I realize the need for redistribution, I do have some trouble with the map that has been made for Edmonton. However, with a few minor changes in the electoral boundaries which would ensure that the riding populations of the rest of Edmonton are closer than they are presently, I can see nothing else that is substantially wrong with the commission's report. These small changes could be made through the public consultation process.

In fact these consultations or hearings are to begin in Quebec on April 12. They will move across Canada over the next three months and are due to hold hearings in Edmonton on April 28 at two o'clock and at 7.30 p.m. at the Macdonald Hotel.

The present process of designing constituencies by independent boundaries commissions for each province has worked well. We do not need a change for the sake of change. If the electoral boundaries commissions were inherently flawed then changes would be made. However, this has not been shown to be the case.

The use of such non-partisan commissions has made it possible to give consideration to community interest criteria without including a partisan tone to the nature of the equation and/or the process.

These independent commissions have allowed us to redraw constituencies based primarily on equality of the vote which includes specific criteria based on a national quotient and have also included a need for justification of variations that deviate dramatically from the quotient.

In conclusion, this process has worked and it has been fair. Any alteration to the process will raise suspicions and a sense of unfairness among the Canadian public. Bill C-18 does not give the appearance of fairness to the Canadian public.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my hon. colleague's concerns about Bill C-18 that is being introduced. Every elector in my riding of Kindersley-Lloydminster received a map of the new boundaries two or three weeks ago. I have not heard a public outcry even though my riding boundaries have been quite drastically changed.

The current riding of Kindersley-Lloydminster will not exist after the readjustment takes place as proposed in the current report by the boundaries commission. In spite of that I have not had a hue and outcry from the public. I know as an MP I have some concerns. I know my constituency association has some concerns. However the general public seems more concerned about other decisions made in the House such as dollars spent.

Has the hon. member had an outcry of concern from his riding regarding the new boundary proposals, or would he sense it being more a concern of politicians and political organizations?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Reform

Hugh Hanrahan Reform Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have had concerns expressed to me with regard to the boundary changes. I have also had constituents recognize that the process by which they can express their concerns to the commission is a valid one. They are much more confident with that process than with a committee of politicians deciding on where boundaries should or should not be.

They are concerned but they see the opportunity they have to express those concerns in a traditional and fair manner.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Reform

Jan Brown Reform Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge my hon. colleague's comments and his presentation in the House tonight. There are several points I would make. I ask my colleague if he would care to respond to the points I am going to bring forward, one of which is clarity of purpose.

It seems to me that anything we would do in the House of Commons would always have a clarity of purpose and that we would always know, by having defined that clarity of purpose, where we were going.

We heard earlier from the side of the House from which I am speaking that perhaps it was personal self-interest that motivated some of the comments in today's discussions by the government side. Indeed those members mobilized themselves extremely well in terms of putting the bill forward, hastily I might add.

When we have a clarity of purpose it is only the beginning of a process. I would like my hon. colleague to comment. Having extended the clarity of purpose perhaps we then have the review. However the review is only one small part of what comes next, a broad analysis of what the review has told us, followed at that point by drawing conclusions and then making recommendations.

All this would be in very open debate; all this would be very much in the public view. If the bill had died tonight constituents across the country who watched the debate would have seen only a few of us make presentations in the House today. We have an obligation to our constituents to ensure that in the fullness of debate the richness of our ideas is shared with them.

Does my hon. colleague wish to make some comments on that?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

Reform

Hugh Hanrahan Reform Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague in terms of quality of purpose. I suggest to her that the vast majority of Canadians would also agree with her.

I would agree with her and Canadians would agree with her on the very point that the process as it now exists is separate from politicians rather than involving politicians. They have seen it work over a period of time. What it seems to be in this instance is change for the sake of change. I do not believe that change is for the benefit of the Canadian people. I doubt very much if my constituents or anyone else in the country would see it in that manner.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Okanagan Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, are the same kinds of things that happened in the boundary changes of the member for Edmonton-Strathcona happening in Okanagan Centre? If I heard correctly the southwest portion of the constituency will be lost or will be added. There may be some confusion as to the economic and social benefits if this were to happen.

The southern part of Okanagan Centre is being taken out of the constituency and put into the Penticton riding or the Similkameen riding. That will not benefit that particular community because people naturally go to Cologne to do their shopping and so on.

Could the hon. member for Edmonton-Strathcona detail exactly what is happening in his constituency with regard to the new boundaries?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Hugh Hanrahan Reform Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, in terms of Edmonton-Strathcona it is geographically located in south central Edmonton. We are losing part of the southern tip and gaining part of the eastern section of it. In terms of socioeconomic changes, they are minimal. I do not see that it is going to be of major significance to my riding. We are studying that now.

As I suggested there is a process in place at Hotel Macdonald on April 28. If we have problems with it we will submit them to the commission.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the applause from both sides of the House. I think it is someone dying to speak over there who has been thwarted

perhaps in the debate today. They want to say something more. Who knows?

Let us look for a few moments at how the bill came to be and what some of the reasons are for the incredible crisis that is under way and why it has to be dealt with so quickly.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Because they are getting rid of Beaver River.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

My friend says: "Because they are getting rid of Beaver River". Let us cut to the basics here. That is very true. It would be easy for me to stand today in the House of Commons and say I think that shelving the whole thing is a marvellous idea. We would then see a cocooning of Beaver River and, if it were politically motivated, I would say: "Whew, that makes me safe".

There is something far deeper, far more democratically essential in terms of this debate. Whether I would lose my constituency or whether my neighbour from Kindersley-Lloydminister would, as is the case as well, that is not the issue. People watching the debate need to be aware of exactly what is going here and the things they have heard from just one party in the House. Granted, the government House leader spoke and someone from the Bloc spoke, but basically they have heard from the Reform Party.

Why has the Reform Party been talking about this bill all day long? Why are we concerned about the whole idea? If it were just political we would say: "Let us put the thing off, shelve it for two years, and get back to looking at the details later". That is not the case here.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Fernand Robichaud Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Yes, it is.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Certain people have talked about it on the government side but basically only in questions and comments. I think that would be the general consensus in the House. They have probably been asked not to speak because they wanted the debate to die out, as we saw when they requested extra time. Let us not be foolish. There are people who have all kinds of concerns. We will continue to talk about this matter until something is done about democracy in the country. We would not see politicians getting in the way of electoral boundaries commissions that have been set up. We can talk about reasons: why they are set up and whether they are politically motivated. I will talk about that for a couple of minutes also.

As soon as politicians get their hands into the tub we know there is something going wrong in the Chamber that is filtering out across the country. We are saying it must stop. We are not trying to be sanctimonious. I am not standing here trying to be self-righteous because I stand to lose. My constituency of Beaver River was brand new in 1988. It lived through the 1988 election and the 1993 election, and under this proposal it stands to die.

It is easy for someone to sit on the other side, chuckle about it and say: "Look at her". However, I have no seat in which to run in the next election. I want that very clear and I want that on the record. I stand here and that Beaver River lives, but let us make sure Beaver River has a chance to live in terms of the process of going to the hearings and making representations on April 27 and April 28. That is what we are talking about here.

It is easy to ask whether this was politically motivated. That is not for me to say. This is supposed to be a commission that has worked at arm's length from the government. I cannot quarrel or quibble with that.

Recently I was at a hockey game in Elk Point and player came off the benches to me and asked: "Deborah, could they not have made it any more subtle that they were trying to get rid of you"? Of course the circumstances were such that in the last Parliament I sat here as the only Reform member in all of Canada. My friend from Edmonton-Strathcona just mentioned that the head justice of each province was set up by the chief justice of the province. We have that situation in Alberta and the two members of the commission, one from Calgary and one from Edmonton, were appointed by the Speaker of the House of Commons.

If in Elk Point, Alberta, somebody comes off a hockey bench and says "boy, it sure looks political to me", we need to pay attention. It is not self-righteous to stand here and say that is all they are trying to do. That is not the point.

We are trying to say that something has been set up here whether or not we like it. Whether my friend's riding in Vancouver has been blitzed is not the issue. My friend from Vancouver should be there, absolutely firmly at those public hearings. That is his chance to talk about it. He should not hurl insults and comments across the House of Commons because it gains nothing. It is his party that has brought it in.

It is sad to me that the public is feeling skeptical about the matter. Members of my party from various ridings have said today that they did not think there was much a hue and cry. Maybe in their ridings there has not been, but certainly in Beaver River there has been.

The constituency of Beaver River, although it was a brand new riding in name in 1988, has a marvellous history in north eastern Alberta. The Beaver River itself is an amazing waterway which was a trading route for the fur traders or the voyageurs into the Athabasca region. They came to Lac-la-Biche, up the Beaver River, portaged very few miles across to the Athabasca and were gone all the way north.

It was a really exciting moment in our history when people on the previous commission decided that Beaver River riding would be named. As I have said, why would the constituency have such a short history?

In terms of setting records, if this bill goes through as proposed, yes, they will shelve it for 24 months. That is fine but what will happen after? If it goes through I will have sat as the only member of Parliament for the entire life of the constituency of Beaver River. We feel old and start looking old quickly in this place, but it seems to me that is a pretty short shelf life for a constituency.

I am not arguing all in favour of the proposal because I have some serious reservations about it. I have been in touch with the person with whom we are to get in touch to say that I will be appearing in Lac-la-Biche, Alberta, at McArthur Place on Wednesday, April 17, 1994, at 7.30 p.m. That is where I am to go as a citizen and as a member of Parliament. That is what was set up in terms of stages that we are to go through.

I sent in my notice saying that I would be appearing before this public hearing commission. Why should that be kiboshed? If I have any reservations about it, it would be just to ask one question: why did the commissioners draw up their lines first and consult second?

I have problems with the process. I have problems with the map that has been redrawn because I have serious reservations about totally eliminating a particular constituency that is brand new. I have a method in place to go and voice my concerns and my complaints about that. That is to go and talk to the people at the public hearings.

Five million dollars has been spent on this already and are we going to throw it off on the shelf?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

An hon. member

That was the Tories, not by us.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Nonetheless, how much will it cost to redo this completely? How much does it cost for lost time when the government is trying so desperately to get some other bills through vis-à-vis money and the borrowing authority?

We look at things that it wants to put through Parliament and then all of a sudden now we have a crisis that we need royal assent just as quickly as possible.

Why is it that people are so frustrated with this? There are problems but could it be that they would be losing out politically? That is the one thing that this commission was set up originally to do, to try to keep politicians' hands out of the works of this. If ever we have seen politicians' hands and dirty finger marks all over everything we see it today in this Chamber on March 21, 1994. That is a sad day in Canada as far as I am concerned.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. I know that the member for Beaver River has seized her colleagues' attention opposite but I certainly do not want to miss anything either.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about details in the way that this is set up versus process. That is what I am trying to draw to the attention of members opposite. I do not particularly like the way this is drawn up. I made that very clear. I have obviously riled some people on the other side of the House.

I disagree with the way it is. I have constituents who are very upset about it. Nonetheless, when we look at a process that is flawed and only becomes more seriously flawed when we all get into it, that is what I am expressing concern about. I think that is probably what we have heard more and more.

Let me address a couple of other issues before I close. Does this further divide rural and urban Canada? I spent my first 25 years living in Vancouver which is about to lose a riding, as I understand from the other side. I grew up practically in downtown Vancouver. I know what it is like to be a city person. I know the concerns of urban Canada.

I live in northeastern rural Alberta by choice. Many people are born in areas and there they are, citizens of that area just because. I chose to leave Vancouver and teach school in northeastern Alberta and so I am a rural Albertan by choice.

To me that says a lot. I realize both sides of the coin. I know what it is like to live in the city and to be able to go to the symphony which is about six or eight minutes from home. I also know what it is like to watch the Edmonton Oilers play hockey or watch the Edmonton Eskimos play football when it is a three hour, one way drive for me. I know what it is like to be a rural Canadian.

I would like to invite the commissioners who sit as the Alberta commissioners, two from Calgary, one from Edmonton, to come and spend a week with me in Beaver River, in my four by four. They would understand what rural Canada is all about. They would understand what it is like to travel 28,000 square kilometres regularly from end to end of our constituency. In terms of square kilometres mine is far smaller than many others. If we look at the map, if we look at the riding which is north of mine, Peace River, Athabasca, those take up physically literally half of Alberta's square kilometres.

Beaver River is small in comparison to that but I would love the commissioners to come with me in my four by four. I appreciate my friend from Broadview-Greenwood. We have known each other well over the years. I always remember his saying he could ride around Broadview-Greenwood on his

bicycle in about an hour and a half. I have given him a standing invitation to come on out to the "Beav" and we would see how far he would get on his bicycle-not very.

I looked up the mileage of the three vehicles that I have gone through since my election in March 1989. There is my basic four by four that I spend most of my time in the riding with. I have also put lots of miles on my truck and camper, a small car and another truck when I have needed to.

On my four by four that I do most of my business travelling with I have put 324,000 kilometres. I am no mathematician but I divided that out. It is basically 8,000 kilometres across Canada. That is 40.5 trips from sea to sea across and around Beaver River. That is an incredible number of miles.

Rural Canada is an exciting place to live but let me tell members that in terms of hours and time and driving and getting around, driving two hours or three hours one way to a one and a half hour meeting and then turning around driving three hours home again is an incredible amount of time chewed up. However, it is peaceful time.

Telephone time, if I need that, is marvellous. Why would we take that away from people? What is wrong with urban Canada's getting to know its country cousins better? Why could we not redraw these boundaries by taking a corner of the population out of a city and moving it into the rural areas? Why do we need to be so firm and obsessed with city boundaries all the time?

Why not take a corner out of some of the population of four or five thousand people in Edmonton and tell them they have something in common with these people? The guidelines that the commissioners were given say that boundary readjustment must take into account human interests and geographic characteristics.

Every one of those people who lives in Edmonton, Toronto or whatever is eating the bread that was grown for them on these farms. They do have something in common with urban and rural Canada. Why do we not celebrate that instead of always moving it off against each other? There are such divisions between the country and the city. We need to celebrate what we share in common rather than saying that person is from the country, that one is from the city and we have nothing more to gain from each other, we have precious little in common.

That is wrong. That is incorrect. We need to look at these things and say that there are problems in the way this commission has gone about doing it. However, that is not the end of the world. One does not make a matter worse by having the government and the Official Opposition jump up and say that we should shelve it, that we should try to come up with something better.

I would be in favour of that if I had a list of possibilities of what might be better. I really would. Let us make sure that we have some options on the table rather than saying that we will put a committee together. I get nervous when I see things like that and when I hear things like that.

As rural Canada and rural MPs are called upon to represent larger and larger areas, we need to be very careful that we do not get into the situation in which MPs feel absolutely worthless because they simply cannot cover the physical distance.

I think of my friend to the north of me from Athabasca, an incredibly large area. There is my friend from the western Arctic and my friend from Churchill. How do they get around? Why would we in Beaver River say that we are totally happy with being able to say take the north end of the riding and move it up to Athabasca, it can use a few thousand square kilometres extra, what the world? When one has 200,000 what is another 10,000 or 15,000?

Those are people who live there. Those are real people who live in Lac-la-Biche and they want to see their MP. They want to talk to their MP and know what their MP looks like and thinks. What about the people who live in St. Paul and Bonnyville and Cold Lake? They are going to become part of the Vegreville-St. Paul riding then, no problem. We will just throw a few thousand square kilometres on to that riding.

There have been rapports built up with members of Parliament. I suspect that is why there is nervousness built up on the government benches to a great extent. They have built up rapports with their constituents, absolutely. I have built up a rapport with mine. I have a fine group of people I represent and I am proud to say that I am the representative of Beaver River.

What about the people in bedroom communities of Edmonton, Namao, Gibbons, Bon Accord, Redwater? Those people are going to become part of Elk Island. Sorry, folks, we will just add a few thousand square kilometres on to Elk Island. My friend from Elk Island will represent any number of other towns. As I have heard so often today, the split or the general movement or flow of those people probably would not be to that area but to the west of them, over to St. Albert.

This is flawed. I have serious problems with it but the reason we are so concerned about this, let me reiterate very firmly, is that the process for this is dreadfully flawed. The process in my neighbour's province of Saskatchewan is the same thing.

Under this particular format it may lose a seat. We look at constitutional limitations on it. That is one thing. Do we toss it aside and say we are going to try and come up with something better? I hardly think so.

What about my neighbours in my home province of British Columbia where the population is growing at an incredibly rapid rate? They have some serious considerations about the flaws in this as well, where things were drawn up, where there are so many people.

Look at discrepancies in constituency numbers. These people need a chance to be able to say they will go to those hearings and we as Canadians or as members of Parliament will go to those public hearings because that is the system, that is the way it was set up and that is exactly what we need to do, not sit here in Parliament and cook up some deal in which we will shelve the thing for 24 months.

In closing, I hope that the Canadian public has learned something here today in terms of process about this whole review. Let us make sure that Parliament does not have its fingerprints all over this process. Let us open it up. Let us consult the people first and then make decisions.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Comuzzi Liberal Thunder Bay—Nipigon, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wish to pose some questions to the previous speaker.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I regret the time has lapsed. I am sure the hon. member for Thunder Bay-Nipigon will seek the next opportunity to ask questions of his colleague opposite, the member for Beaver River.