House of Commons Hansard #67 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Landry Bloc Lotbinière, QC

I will gladly answer this question, Mr. Speaker. You know, when I quoted figures in my speech earlier, it was to impress upon this House and this government that, regarding supply, Quebec has often been cast aside.

We were talking about supply and demand. As a result of the GATT agreements, the agricultural sector will suffer many losses, not only in Quebec, but across Canada.

I would also like to say that it makes me sad when I see, as I did recently-and I want to come back to this because this is the starting point, the signing of the GATT-farmers' associations were formed to oppose it. While some aspects were beneficial, protection had to be sought against other aspects. It is like when you make a deal; there is no point giving and giving, you have to keep something for yourself.

That is the point I was trying to make in my speech. We have been giving too much and for no reason. We are worth a lot in Canada and in Quebec.

As far as quotas on milk are concerned, I can tell you that farmers have been asking what will replace them. One of them told me: "Look, I will loose everything within a few years because my quota which was worth so much will not be worth anything any more because of free trade, of the GATT". Canada should have negotiated protective clauses.

I would have to do the same thing if I owned a business and dealt with other countries or had employees. In any case, we have to protect ourselves and our interests. In so doing, we are protecting all Canadians and Quebecers.

But rest assured this is not over yet and I think it will do more harm than good. We are told to think in terms of globalization, but as I said in my remarks earlier, we must also be competitive. Let us not forget that unless we are able to compete on the global market, we will do very poorly.

I believe that Providence and common sense are both required in this matter, even if it is politics or agriculture. I also believe that we must always strive to obtain as much as possible and the best deal possible for Canada and Quebec. That is why I chose that angle in my remarks, saying: "Look, Quebec has traditionally received less for grain transportation like all the rest". I could have gone on for 20 minutes. Let me tell you that as a Quebecer and a member responsible for representing the people of Quebec and Canada, I will do my very best to get as much as possible for them and protect our interests, instead of giving it all to the Americans or other foreign countries.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the member which I ask on behalf of Quebec dairy farmers.

Quebec has a surprisingly large percentage of the dairy quota within the supply managed system. Quebec depends on markets beyond the borders of the province in this arrangement. If the Bloc gets its way and Quebec does separate then certainly Quebec dairy farmers will lose that production which is presently being sold in the rest of Canada.

What is the member going to tell Quebec dairy farmers about the prospect of virtually overnight losing this market outside Quebec?

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Landry Bloc Lotbinière, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to answer his question because I have the impression that on learning of a sovereign Quebec, farmers or, to go even further, cows will give less milk on account of being afraid. That is not the case. I would like to set the record straight. You can rest assured that whether it is Quebec or the other provinces, it has never been said that for years there have been tariff barriers between Quebec and

Ontario or between other Canadian provinces. No such thing has never been said to the Canadian people, but today it has to be said. We had not even become sovereign, and yet there were tariff barriers between Canada's provinces. Did that make sense?

Do not worry, the agricultural sector will not be any worse off in a sovereign Quebec. There will be agreements, but we will not be dealing with barriers. In the agriculture committee, we were told that if cows ever gave less milk, there is a new hormone, on which a one-year moratorium has been imposed. We said no to protect human and animal health. Wait a minute! Technology is so advanced, and we are being pressured by multinational pharmaceutical companies. You can rest assured that at that time there will not be a problem with supply and demand or the lack of milk.

I can tell you that, as far as milk is concerned, whether it is Canadian or Quebec milk, it will always be easier to sell without BST, unlike what comes from the U.S.A. You can tell me in a year from now, when the current moratorium is lifted.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, the last two speakers were on a particular theme so I thought I would continue to run with it for a minute.

In my riding, which is probably one of the highest density supply managed ridings west of Ontario where there is actually more of Canada, there is a real concern. In B.C. we have what is called Fraser Valley butter in a Fraser Valley butter wrapper, but it is not produced in the Fraser Valley. It is produced in Quebec, shipped to British Columbia, and then wrapped in what they call a Fraser Valley butter wrapper.

To follow up on the earlier comments of the hon. member, what are you going to tell the Quebec dairy industry? If the hon. member believes that there is a readiness, a willingness or an eagerness to have the milk and cheese and butter produced in Quebec when we could very easily do it by increasing our production of industrial milk in B.C., there is some kind of sad mistakenness here.

What are you going to tell the dairy farmers in Quebec? The market is going to be cut virtually in half.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Jean Landry Bloc Lotbinière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if my colleague is referring to production or overproduction. At one point, there were quota problems in the dairy industry and I remember quite vividly farmers dumping milk in creeks. I believe the dairy industry in Quebec is trouble free at this time.

I am not looking for problems where there are none. I like to deal with problems as they arise and find solutions to them. I have always maintained that there are no problems, only solutions. You can rest assured that when Quebec and Canadian farmers encounter a problem, they will confront it head on and seek out a solution together. They will not turn a blind eye to it. Have no fear, they will be open, honest and to the point. Our farmers are capable of adjusting very quickly.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jane Stewart Liberal Brant, ON

Mr. Speaker, as I was thinking about participating in this debate today, I could not help but reflect on its timeliness.

In my riding of Brant as in many ridings across this country we are now seeing our agricultural community out in full force. They are out and visible because now is the planting season for 1994.

In my little village of St. George the tractors are on the highways pulling discs, cultivators, drills and sprayers. If you look closely you can see that the tractors are in the fields 24 hours a day. Local mechanics, tire repair operators and carriers of fuel are working at the beck and call of our farm community, all because our farmers are working. They are working hard against time and against the elements to get our crops planted for this year.

The opportunity to debate the issues facing Canadian farmers today is very timely and important. The debate is not only important for farmers, producers and retailers of food. It is important for each and every one of us as a Canadian.

What we are talking about is our national food supply. When we think about our national food supply there is one issue that we cannot ignore. That is the issue of security; security of supply, security of health and safety and the financial security that our farmers who grow and produce the food for this country and hopefully for more and more of the world require.

Let us think about security of supply. Canada has a very, very good record in that area. Over the last 40 years we have been part of the green revolution and have helped to identify, develop and now use seeds, herbicides, pesticides, fungicides and fertilizers that have helped us increase our yield exponentially.

As we move into the next century we are also moving out of the green revolution and into the genetic revolution. I expect very much so that we are going to have considerable debate in this House as we move into that biotechnological revolution.

I believe that we will in the end make good and clear decisions and that we as a country will continue to be able to provide and supply food, not only for ourselves but for the rest of the world.

When we think of security of health and safety, we have an excellent track record in Canada. We have come to expect that the quality of our food will be the best in the world. Our ministries of agriculture and health have insisted on it and we as Canadians may have even come to take it for granted.

It is very possible that as we make transitions in the world of agriculture and agri-food we are going to see more and more products from around the world. I think we will then find very clearly that Canadian produce has been the best quality bar none at a good and affordable cost. I believe that Canadians will continue to insist upon the availability of Canadian food products.

We can also think about security from the point of view of financial security for our farmers. When I think about that I am optimistic. I continue to be optimistic. I read in the current farm media that there is an understanding or a belief that in Canadian agriculture we have a sleeping giant that is now just awakening. It gives me pause to feel optimistic.

As I have said we have a good, solid supply of bulk commodities. It is a quality supply of bulk commodities. I believe that as we work with our farmers, and I too am a farmer, to become better entrepreneurs, to be better marketers, to be more innovative and creative in our product slate and our crop slate and our market sources we will ensure our financial security as an industry.

I believe quite fully that the agricultural and agri-food sector of our economy will be a driving force to ensure a strong economy for this country. I believe that the government has a role and responsibility to help our farmers move in that direction so that we can ensure our own financial security.

There are a number of things that this government has already done in that regard. First, as many of my colleagues have identified, we have signed the GATT agreement. In that agreement we identified what subsidies are all about and how subsidies can truly interfere with the marketplace, particularly in agriculture.

We have a world trade organization that will help us adjudicate the times when we believe that subsidies are playing an unfair role in the world market. Our government has gone a long way and will continue to work to make sure that the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs works effectively for us.

As well our government is working hard at looking at interprovincial trade barriers that are stopping us from having effective trade here at home. I have been very pleased to see the work of the Ministers of Industry and Agriculture in terms of getting their provincial counterparts to work together to break down these interprovincial barriers. As we become more successful in our market development at home so will we become more successful in the broader marketplace.

A third area I must highlight is the general focus that this government takes in ensuring that as a government we reduce red tape, we reduce government intervention that gets in the way of our agri-food business as well as all business. We want to make it so that government is there supporting small business and, in particular, given this debate, the agri-business, so that we can continue to develop effective markets and be able to sell our commodities not only here at home but to the broader world.

As we try and work to help our farmers and our farm communities become more entrepreneurial we also have to accept the responsibility and the understanding that we have to make life predictable, or as predictable as we possibly can, for this sector of the economy. Fighting, as I mentioned earlier, against the natural elements of floods, disease, drought, we have to make sure that we have some kind of safety net that is there in support of our farm community.

As well as talking about the development of new markets we have to recognize that the marketplace is a very unpredictable place. As we encourage our farmers and our farm communities to step out, to think about new crops, to find new market niches and to be more aggressive in our activities around the world, we have to provide a safety net that will allow them the confidence to do that.

I would like to recall the work of Alvin Hamilton under the Diefenbaker government, of all governments. Back in the 1960s when we made our first grain sales to China, that was a watershed that really solidified the western grain marketplace. It is this kind of activity that we have to build on and improve and step out and grow with. I think our government plays a significant role in helping our agricultural and agri-food industry to do just that.

We are talking about social safety nets here. I believe, as on many occasions we have already done, our government is looking forward to introducing and making more aware and making more usable the whole farm approach to safety nets.

I was pleased to hear the hon. member for Prince George-Peace River reference the NISA, net income stabilization account, approach to security and safety nets. That program is a new program, a bright light in our safety net situation, to quote him.

I would also like to identify that the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, the federation to which I belong, is working hard in support of the notion of whole farm safety nets: "The OFA is committed to the concept of a whole farm approach to safety nets and will continue to work with commodity groups and

government to evolve a meaningful and equitable set of safety nets that are available to all producers".

I support that approach. It is the approach of the Liberal government. I have talked to producers in my own riding, some of whom are covered by programs like NISA and feel very positively about that program, others who are not but are interested in being covered. I feel that this notion of whole farm support is the right one. It encourages our farmers to develop their farms in a complete way and not to carry on growing crops that may not be the best for their properties because those are the crops that receive subsidy. It is the right approach and the approach that becomes even more important is the one of making sure that we consult with producers and with growers as we develop this whole safety net transition.

That is what my growers are saying to me. They say: "We need the social safety net. The whole farm approach has appealed to us but please, please do it in concert with the producer".

This government will, I believe, make that its hallmark. Whether it be in the ministries of finance, immigration or agriculture, what we are seeing is that our government is one that consults with those who are particularly concerned.

In terms of our security and financial security for farmers, I feel very optimistic in that regard.

This government is here to support our farming communities. I believe we have a very bright future as Canadian agriculturalists and that agriculture will play a significant role as we continue to develop our new and global economy.

I feel glad to have been able to participate in this debate and I also want to thank the minister for providing this opportunity for me and for all my colleagues in the House to talk about this very important issue to the Canadian people.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for her comments and her speech.

I would like to ask if she believes farmers should be exempt or non-exempt on the Liberal GST replacement tax on machinery and equipment that is pending.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jane Stewart Liberal Brant, ON

I appreciate that question, Mr. Speaker. As you may know, the hon. member and I both sit on the GST review committee.

We have heard some very appropriate and clear submissions from the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. As a farmer I do believe that farmers should continue to be exempt and that we have to work very closely to find new solutions to improve the cashflow situation that farmers face as they pay their GST up front and then have to wait for those rebates to come back.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member.

It may have been a slip of the tongue, I am not sure, but she referred to the farm stabilization programs as being social safety nets. I just want to clarify whether that was in fact a slip of the tongue or does she see farm stabilization programs as a type of social safety net.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jane Stewart Liberal Brant, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member drawing that to my attention.

It was a slip of the tongue. I feel that these are very much programs that are there to help our industry, the agricultural industry, propel itself into the future. I look forward to having that safety net so that we can actively pursue new and broader markets.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Cowling Liberal Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, as a grain farmer representing the rural constituency of Dauphin-Swan River in western Canada I firmly believe that we need a long term vision for the grain industry.

The current difficulty in moving grain is just one of a number of issues affecting Canada's grain and oilseed industry. The short term immediate problem must be addressed to ensure that it is not repeated next year.

However, it is also time to take a look at the grain marketing system as a whole. We must be prepared to ask ourselves if our industry is positioned properly to build on the opportunities that are out there.

The new trade deals offer new market opportunities and the Canadian grain industry must examine how it can best take advantage of these opportunities. New trade agreements, notably the North American free trade agreement and the GATT deal, mean obligations that the Canadian government must meet.

For example, the GATT requires that we make changes to the WGTA for shipments to the west coast and to Churchill. The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has asked representatives of the grain marketing system to a meeting in Winnipeg on May 16.

Why should the industry and government work together to develop a vision for the future? First, the marketplace is changing, trade patterns are shifting, traditional markets for Canadian grain are disappearing, Asian countries and the Americas are now the focus of Canada's grain marketing efforts. These changes in trade patterns mean different demands on Canada's grain handling and transportation system.

There are also production driven demands as farmers turn to higher income, alternative special crops. We are selling to fewer larger institutional buyers and more to individual buyers such as millers who require just in time delivery. This changes, for example, the time and resources required to ship our grain.

As we look toward a vision for a grain policy framework, clearly decisions we make today on a number of grain issues need to be based on a long term vision for the grain industry. Today I would like to outline the policy framework we intend to

use as a basis for working with industry to shape a vision for where we want the grain marketing system to be in five to ten years.

The first area is transportation. My hon. colleague will or has already outlined the steps we are taking within the industry to resolve the serious short term system capacity problems plaguing the industry.

Other transportation issues include the St. Lawrence seaway, the WGTA issues, rail system efficiencies and the NTA rate setting. On the St. Lawrence seaway, the Standing Committee on Transport has established a subcommittee to review the seaway system. This government is grateful to have this report.

On WGTA, by June the minister will have reports from the producer payment panel on methods of paying the benefit and from the Grain Transportation Agency on efficiencies. A study was also undertaken of the NTA rate scale.

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food plans to announce a process for reviewing the recommendations on all of these issues so that the government is in a position to make decisions by the 1995 crop year.

The industry is very concerned about a number of grain marketing issues, but the issue is very divisive. The Canadian Wheat Board for its part already has made important studies toward positioning itself to meet new global marketplace demands. For example, it has made changes to improve its price information for producers and the industry. It has made changes to the quota system so there is better information on the amount and quality of grain in the country elevators.

In the trade area we are faced with a combination of tremendous trade opportunities in the U.S. mixed with increased protectionist pressures. Canada continues to work toward a negotiated settlement. That is good for Canadian agriculture.

Our objective is to achieve a settlement before the 90-day consultation period which is up in July. If agreement is not possible and the U.S. acts to restrict imports of our wheat we have the right to retaliate, and we will. Canada will not roll over and play dead.

In the regulatory area, the Canadian Wheat Board and grain commission have made numerous changes in their operations which are contributing to greater industry competitiveness. For example, the Canadian Grain Commission has examined ways of handling grain that are not visually distinguishable.

Visual distinguishability remains an integral part of our grading system. Our commitment to a grading system which ensures quality and consistency remains unquestioned. We are also considering options as to how the grain commission regulates terminal elevator tariffs. The goal is more flexibility for grain companies and, in turn, a more flexible grain handling system overall.

There is an industry based committee in place now to continue monitoring the implementation of regulatory review recommendations over the course of this year.

Another factor in the whole grain policy area is the safety net programming. In order for the industry to change in the face of a changing global marketplace it must be supported by a strong safety net program. Currently a committee representing farm groups and federal and provincial governments is reviewing the Canadian farm safety nets.

Its consensus is to make a whole farm safety net program available to all commodities. They also agree that some type of additional support or supplementary programs may be needed to deal with specific regional or commodity problems as they arise.

Federal and provincial ministers of agriculture expect to receive the committee's report in July. The goal of this government is a safety net program that is GATT consistent, market neutral, financially sound, affordable, effective and understandable. Our policy framework involves decisions on WGTA before the 1995 crop year, continued implementation of the regulatory review over the next year, overseen by the industry based advisory committee, a negotiated settlement in our trade dispute with the U.S. before the section 28 deadline in July but only if the settlement is a good deal for Canada, and finally whole farm safety nets for the 1995-96 year with companion programs if necessary. The committee of producer representatives and federal and provincial governments will work together toward this goal.

These are the means we have established to achieve our goals and the timeframes we have set. On this basis the minister has asked representatives of the grain companies, railways, grain handling labour unions and government agencies to a meeting in Winnipeg on May 16.

We must move immediately to re-establish Canada's reputation as a reliable supplier of export grains and oilseeds. It is critical that the people who own and run the system come together now to set their collective sights on the next five or ten years.

Before we make decisions today we must ask ourselves what kind of a grain marketing system is needed for a competitive tomorrow.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join with other members in this debate on the challenges facing Canadian agriculture and some of the alternative approaches to resolving those challenges.

In doing so I want to begin like other members by acknowledging and stressing the importance of the agricultural sector to

Canada's future. Agriculture is important because we all have to eat, because of its contributions to GNP and the balance of payments and because, as others have pointed out, it is the economic underpinnings of most of rural Canada.

However, there is another reason why agriculture is important. It is because it is a primary resource industry in full transition, a transition which if successfully accomplished, has lessons to teach every other primary resource sector.

In other words I believe there is an old agriculture based on old trading patterns, old financing methods, old marketing techniques, old relationships with governments that are passing away. There is a new agriculture that is more knowledge based, more market oriented and more internationally competitive that is struggling to be born.

This challenge of transition faces all our primary industries: forestry, mining, energy and the fisheries. However, if we can pioneer and find adjustment strategies to guide the transition of agriculture from the old to the new, I am convinced that many of these solutions will have application to other primary sectors as well.

I want to suggest therefore that the acid test of the government's agricultural policy and the acid test of the agricultural platforms of the Bloc and ourselves should be how well do these facilitate the transition of the old agriculture to the new. Do these policies and platforms provide adequate bridges whereby farmers and agri-business people can pass over from the old agriculture to the new? This is the standard by which we ought to judge both government policy and opposition alternatives.

I should add that this need for transition policy or bridge policy in agriculture has been repeatedly drawn to my attention, not just by theorists but by farmers themselves.

In the spring of 1993 prior to the federal election I received a letter from a Saskatchewan farmer in which he wrote these words:

We feel like we are on an economic island, isolated from the economic mainland and opportunities to make a decent living, isolated by trade wars at depressed prices, marketing systems we can't control, inefficient transportation systems, safety nets that don't work well and ever-increasing taxes and input costs. What we desperately need are bridges over troubled waters, bridges that lead to a better economic future.

What then are some of the key questions that will allow us to test whether government policy will truly assist farmers to participate in the agricultural economy of the future? Let me discuss three of them.

First, does the government's policy provide any prospect of tax relief for farmers or at least a reduction in the tax component of input costs?

Measured by this standard the government is not getting off on the right track. Its general budgetary policy is to spend $40 billion more this year than it takes in or $110 million more a day than it collects in tax revenues. Farmers know that these levels of expenditure mean that taxation levels are likely to rise, that the tax component of input costs will rise, and that the cost of money as measured by the interest rate is also likely to rise.

To date I have not heard from the minister or from government members. I have not heard them in the forefront of demanding deeper spending reductions that would lead to tax reductions for their agricultural constituents.

We have even heard from some Bloc members in this debate who seem to think that the answer to the problems of the agriculture industry, and presumably other industries, is still to spend yet more government money on additional or enhanced programs.

Spending more taxpayers' money is not the answer to any industry's problem. In contrast, Reformers continue to call for reduced federal expenditures.

It is our conviction that the single greatest thing that the federal government can do to stimulate agricultural recovery in the context of freer trade is to simply get the cost of government down to the point where this is reflected in lower taxation levels, a lower cost of living and a lower cost of doing business for Canadian farmers.

We even believe that the agriculture sector could be persuaded to take less by way of program expenditures if it could be assured that every other industrial sector would do the same thing to the point where there is an absolute reduction in the cost of doing business for all of us.

A second question for testing the relevance of agricultural policy is does that policy reduce or maintain the dependence of the agricultural sector on government.

During the years when government involvement in agriculture was considered to be the solution to every problem, we witnessed enormous growth in provincial programs and regulations, federal programs and regulations, and the overlap between the two. To date we see very little in government initiatives to reduce the dependence of agriculture on those programs in concrete terms.

For example I have not heard, but perhaps I missed it, the minister call for a clear definition of the responsibilities of the private agricultural sector, the provincial departments and the federal departments so as to eliminate excessive overlap and regulation.

Moreover it appears from the current budget and the estimates of the agriculture department that it intends to keep in place the dozen or so income support programs maintained or instituted

by previous governments including crop insurance, revenue insurance, net income assistance, loan guarantees, livestock feed development initiatives, assistance to agri-food producers, cash flow enhancement programs, western grain transportation subsidies, the dairy commission subsidy and so on.

Reformers on the other hand call for a phased clear-cut reduction in the dependence of the agricultural sector on both levels of government.

We believe it is the private agricultural sector which should have the right and responsibility to make the vast majority of agricultural production, transportation and marketing decisions. We believe the primary role of the provinces is in the maintenance and development of the human and physical resource base of the industry, education and training for the farmer of the future and preservation of the soil.

We believe that the primary responsibility of the federal government lies in the maintenance of health and product safety standards for agriculture, the negotiation of international trade agreements, the enforcement of import and anti-combines regulations, and the operation of national income maintenance programs as long as these are necessary.

In order to further reduce agricultural dependence on government and excessive regulations, Reformers advocate the consolidation of the current plethora of income support programs into three. These have been mentioned by my colleagues.

They include, first, an expanded crop insurance program to protect agricultural producers from natural hazards. Second is a trade distortion adjustment program to shield at least partially agricultural producers from foreign subsidy injury. A third question for testing the soundness of agricultural policy is does government policy respect and enhance the farmer's freedom of choice, the right of the farmer himself or herself to make those production, transportation and marketing decisions upon which the success or failure of the farm unit depends?

On this question of freedom of choice, we see a hesitancy on the part of the government. It is the same hesitancy evidenced by the government when it is asked to experiment with more direct methods of democratic decision making in other areas, like using referendums to establish the legitimacy of aboriginal self-government in Manitoba, to give Canadians a say on criminal justice issues like capital punishment or to democratize the Senate.

Reformers advocate greater democratization of economic decision-making in agriculture. We believe the present government appointment system for the Canadian Wheat Board should be replaced by a board of directors elected by producers through a fair and democratic process.

In order for grain producers to benefit from every available market opportunity we believe that producers should be given the opportunity to democratically examine their organizational and jurisdictional options. This would include introducing greater domestic and international market competition; permitting the wheat board to trade in grains and oilseeds; allowing the purchase of wheat and other grains on either a cash basis or a pooled initial final price basis and implementing special opting out provisions for entrepreneurs interested in developing better export markets.

The net effect of all these reforms is to increase the freedom of choice for the Canadian farmer with respect to production, transportation and marketing decisions affecting their own future.

I want to conclude by raising one further question which is on the minds of almost every farm family in Canada when they think of the future and any government policy that is intended to help them prepare for that future. That is the question whether government policies or alternatives offered by the opposition provide any genuine basis for hope for a better economic future for Canadian farmers and their children.

I personally believe that there are reasons for hope for the Canadian farmer, that bridges can be built between the faltering agricultural economy of the past and the new agricultural economy of the 21st century, over which the majority of our farm people can pass.

There will always be a growing market for food even though it may be badly distorted and obscured by everything from government trade wars to private monopolies. What we must do is figure out how to access our fair share of that changing market, which is what building the bridges of marketing, safety net and transportation system reform is all about.

The world is slowly lurching toward more liberal trade including freer trade in agricultural products. The signing of CUSTA, NAFTA and the GATT agreements are good and hopeful signs. What we need to do is hold our trading partners to the spirit and the letter of these agreements and not let them or ourselves slip back into the old world of protectionism.

We also need to build bridges which will enable our producers to survive the transition from a heavily subsidized agricultural sector to a less subsidized one, which is what our safety net reforms and particularly our trade distortion adjustment program is all about.

In addition, tax relief and a lowering of the cost of doing business must be offered as the light at the end of the tunnel, to persuade all our resource and industrial sectors to become less dependent on government. It is up to this Parliament to build the bridges from unbalanced budgets and excessive taxation to balanced budgets and lower taxation, which is what the Reform Party's federal spending reforms are all about.

It is up to this generation of Canadian voters and farmers to build these bridges, not just for ourselves but so that the next generation, the children of farmers, may enter and prosper in the new agricultural economy.

I conclude with this. In the 1920s and 1930s, in the heyday of agricultural reform in this country led by the old progressive party there was a poem on bridge building that was frequently read at farm meetings across the country and was often quoted in the House during the great agricultural debates of that year. It is a simple poem which eloquently expresses the ultimate reason for building bridges from the past to the future in any field of human endeavour, including agriculture. It provides the ultimate reason for advocating and supporting real agricultural reform regardless of our politics. I will close by reading it. It says:

An old man, going a lone highway, Came at the evening, cold and gray, To a chasm, vast and deep and wide, Through which was flowing a sullen tide. The old man crossed in the twilight dim- The sullen stream had no fears for him; But he turned, when he reached the other side, And built a bridge to span the tide.

"Old man," said a fellow pilgrim near, "You are wasting strength in building here. Your journey will end with the ending day; You never again must pass this way.

You have crossed the chasm deep and wide, Why build you the bridge at the eventide?"

The builder lifted his old grey head. "Good friend, in the path I have come,"he said,

"There followeth after me today A youth whose feet must pass this way. This chasm which has been naught to me To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be. He, too, must cross in the twilight dim; Good friend, I am building the bridge for him."

AgricultureGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I listened with intent because being on the agriculture committee I have been amazed at the contradictions within the Reform Party agricultural policy. As I listened to the leader of the Reform Party I am still struck that it is cut, cut, cut, regardless of the consequences.

What does phased clear-cut reduction mean? Can he be more specific than that? Where does the Reform Party really stand with regard to the Canadian Wheat Board and supply management?

You talk about opening up the board to allow basically off board grain to be sold and grain to sold through the pooling system as well. Do you not realize that that works in-

AgricultureGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. I would like to remind the hon. member to put his question through the Speaker please.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, so noted.

I want to point out that maybe there is something that the Reform members have not learned, and it is that when you set up that kind of system the lowest seller sets the price. The last thing we want to see is Canadians competing against each other in international markets. The Canadian Wheat Board, and as we have seen with the barley experiment, has shown that it is a good seller, that it achieves success in terms of selling and maximizes that return back to producers.

Just where does the Reform Party stand relative to the Canadian Wheat Board and to the supply management system?

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5 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

I want to thank the hon. member for his question.

I thought I had made myself fairly clear with respect to the Canadian Wheat Board. What we are saying is democratize the way the Wheat Board is organized and makes decisions. We consider that more important than particular questions about what decisions the Wheat Board makes. We are prepared to live with the decisions that are made if you democratize the board.

With respect to the member's comments that he sees something contradictory in what the Reform Party is advocating, I do want to say that what we are talking about is the trend or shift in direction. We are not talking about going from a very heavy dependency on government and subsidies all the way to no government, no subsidies, overnight. We are talking about a shift in direction. We argue that it is not a contradiction. It is clear the direction in which we would like to shift things. We can argue about the scope.

I would suggest that if he thinks that is somehow a contradiction, what we wonder about is the contradiction where before the election we had Liberals fighting free trade and fighting any change in the supply management system at all, and then six months after advocating a completely different position. If we are guilty of contradictions, we suggest there are others who are even more guilty.

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5 p.m.

Regina—Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the leader of the Reform Party.

I was interested in his comments in so far as they related to grain transportation and the impact of market forces on grain transportation.

The hon. member will know that before the 1980s the railway companies could quite legitimately complain that the regime existing at that time did not compensate them for the movement of grain. Accordingly government moved in to pick up the slack and did so by buying hopper cars, rebuilding prairie branch lines and a whole range of other things. With the WGTA coming into effect in the early 1980s it effectively provided for a full compensatory position in terms of the railways.

Now that we have passed through the end of the eighties and into the nineties, despite the fact that under the WGTA the railways have been fully compensated and they do not have their old complaints about shortfalls, we have seen very little, if any, investment in hopper cars, very little, if any, investment in infrastructure like prairie roadbeds and so forth. This year we

have a horrendous problem with the levels of service that have been provided.

In terms of the philosophical position that the leader of the Reform Party takes, I wonder how he sees in future market forces being a sufficient discipline on the grain transportation system to ensure that those agents that operate in the system, even though they are being fully paid for their services, are not in fact providing the services in some cases for which they are being paid.

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5:05 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

I think that whenever you see a demand for a service as he suggests exists in the grain transportation field not being adequately provided, what that is telling you is that you do not really have a proper market operating; that there is still either too much regulation, or monopoly framework or semi-monopoly framework because supply is not responding to demand.

I suggest that what that means is you have to go to further deregulation and that freight rates ultimately should be set by market forces. This is what we advocate.

The minister will also notice that in our safety net reforms we argue taking away the funds that are currently used to subsidize the railways under the Western Grain Transportation Act, and channelling them into one of these three income support programs, in particular the expanded NISA.

We think that provides a measure of protection to the producer over the changes which market transportation rates would provide. It is also a mechanism of helping the producer that would be GATT green. That is our view on how you employ more market forces to solve the transportation problem and still provide a measure of transitory protection to the producer.

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5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Paul Marchand Bloc Québec-Est, QC

Mr. Speaker, I also was extremely impressed by the speech of the leader of the Reform Party.

I sat on the subcommittee on transport and agriculture and was amazed at the problems of grain transportation in the west. In fact the problems are critical for grain for the western economy.

I was curious to ask the Reform Party leader what suggestions he might have in regard to improving the system.

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5:05 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

I guess I would just reiterate the remarks I made to the minister.

Our view is that further deregulation and greater reliance on market forces is ultimately the best solution to the transportation problems of agriculture in the west. Many of the reforms that we advocate would move us in that direction, although not all at once.

The other thing I would like to comment on, because I have listened to the speeches made by the Bloc members, is this comparison between government subsidization of agriculture in the west and government subsidization of agriculture in Quebec, the implication being that Quebec is not getting its fair share.

I really do suggest that what the Bloc members have been doing is comparing apples and oranges, or to use an agricultural analogy, Herefords and Holsteins. In the west, our agriculture is essentially serving and competing in an international market, particularly the international grain market where it is subject to all these tariff or subsidy wars and it is being subsidized by the taxpayer.

Quebec to a much greater extent is competing more in a domestic market and the subsidization is being provided by the consumer. I suggest if you add up subsidies, not just subsidies from government but subsidies in general, you will find that the subsidization levels in Quebec and the subsidization levels in the west are a lot closer than the Bloc member suggests.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed my pleasure today to join in this important debate on agriculture and the agri-food-

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5:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. We still have a little time left for questions and comments. I thought the member was seeking the floor for questions or comments.

Before I resume debate, were there any other questions or comments?

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I have a comment. The leader of the Reform Party read a poem that talked about our understanding where the shift is leading us.

Members should understand where this shift is leading us, what this absolute sacrifice of power to the marketplace really means and how it affects us. I will read a two-line quote: "One of the key characteristics of a market society is that it isolates us as individuals. From a market point of view, there is no such thing as society. There are only individuals and markets. Families are only units of consumption based on economies of scale. Communities are only places where individuals come together to engage in economic activity".

That is not the kind of community and society I want to live in. I would suggest that the Reform Party policy that is looking at shifting in that direction is not the society we want to be a part of.

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5:10 p.m.

Reform

Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member did not give the source of that quotation but it sounded like Karl Marx. I would argue that that philosophy is in disrepute the world over.

The other thing I point out to the member is that it has been under the heavy government involvement, government subsidization pattern that we have had for the last 30 or 40 years that

has seen the destruction of rural community after rural community all across Canada, and particularly in the west.

Whatever we were doing before, I argue that it is the last thing we should continue to do if our number one priority is the preservation of the rural community. The reforms that we are advocating are a step toward a revitalization of rural Canada on the basis of market principle.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, on a point of information, I should have attributed the source. The source is Christopher Lynn, a minister in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.