House of Commons Hansard #67 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.

Topics

AgricultureGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Prince Edward—Hastings Ontario

Liberal

Lyle Vanclief LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food

Madam Speaker, I hate to prolong this discussion on the contradictions in the hon. member's speech, but I do not know how we can do anything but.

In one minute within his speech, as the previous member from the other side has just suggested to him, he goes on and on about government involvement. Then, as has been well said, the member for Vegreville certainly has not answered very well on how he separates his comments about no government involvement.

It reminds me of a phone call I had from the hon. member's province two or three weeks ago. It was from an individual who said there had been a meeting of 150 randomly selected farmers. They did not want anything to do with supply management. They did not want anything to do with any type of organized marketing in any way, shape or form. They did not want anything to do with any government support. They did not want anything to do with the NISA program. I said: "You do not want anything to do with government". He said: "That is right. All we want is government there if there is a trade war and if there is a weather problem".

I ask the member to comment on whether this is how he feels the government should be involved in support in a safety net program for agriculture. As I said to that gentleman, it seems he did not want to have fire insurance on his barn, but if it started to burn down he wanted the right to go to town and the insurance company would be obligated to sell him a policy at that time.

Is that the way the hon. member thinks a government should plan ahead for the future of this important industry? We as a government are in the safety net. We are meeting with farmers. The majority of the people in the national safety net are key players, participants from the grassroots in putting that plan together, the task force on orderly marketing in the dairy, egg and poultry industries, all of the players involved in that industry are around the table.

I suggest to the member that he notice what is being done. Government's role is to listen to opposition, listen to the grassroots and facilitate with the restrictions, legislation and financial restrictions in a responsible manner for the good of all Canadians. I would suggest that is being done.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

I appreciate the comments from the hon. parliamentary secretary to the agriculture minister.

For such a strong attack on what I said, I am not so sure that in the area of safety nets we have such different ideas. I guess that will be determined down the road.

However, both prefer some kind of whole farm approach to the problem. I have never said no government involvement. I said this industry is tremendously overregulated. There is much too much government interference. We can get rid of a lot of it. I believe the safety net programs that I outlined will cut down on the amount of government involvement tremendously. It will take the market distortion out of the system that is there now.

I did not want to get into the flaws of the GRIP program, but GRIP has just demonstrated almost everything that can go wrong with a government program. It really has. It was supposed to be market neutral and it is far from that. It encouraged farmers to grow wheat at a time when the market said not to grow wheat. There were flaws in the basic design of the program and there were lots of flaws in the administration and in the overlap of administration between the federal government and the provinces.

GRIP is a program that interferes in farmers' business and in their decision making process way beyond what any government program should.

I am saying there is a matter of degrees here. I assume with our difference in philosophy the programs the Liberal government comes up with to replace the programs in place now will involve too much government involvement but I am going to continue to give input along the way. Hopefully I can at least affect somewhat the outcome of this process.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Discepola Liberal Vaudreuil, QC

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 43(2), I will be sharing my time with the member for Gatineau-La Lièvre.

Madam Speaker, I am delighted to speak in this debate on agriculture, since it is a subject of vital importance to my constituency of Vaudreuil, which is largely rural. Most of my constituents earn most of their living from agriculture: dairy farming and grain farming.

Overall, agriculture in Canada and in Quebec is modern and efficient, very much thanks to the partnership established by the government and the agricultural community. These structures are the results of adaptation. In a context of ongoing change, this sector must continue to adapt. In its policies and programs, the Canadian government will continue to help this sector adapt to new market conditions and improve its competitiveness.

Our government will maintain and even increase its strategic investments in research, infrastructure development and skills development. Partnership with the farming community and the provinces will help us determine the best way to use these resources. Partnership is essential if the industry as a whole is to take full advantage of the opportunities the new trade agreements offer.

The agri-food industry is a pillar for the Canadian economy. All Canadians and Quebecers profit from investments in this industry. Our government is committed to helping farmers in every region of Canada, but we must recognize that this kind of support comes in many different ways.

The federal government's intention is to act in the best interests of the agri-food sector. This commitment applies just as well to farms in Quebec and in the prairies, for they are all essential elements in the whole Canadian agri-food system.

Statistics do not reveal the whole picture and can often be deceiving. We must look beyond the numbers and the columns. Government support in the agri-food sector cannot be evaluated solely on direct payments to producers through various different programs. We must take into account indirect transfers such as research or market development and those governed by controls such as border control for quotas.

Canada is recognized world-wide as a healthy and high quality agri-food producer and exporter. Agricultural producers across Canada profit from this fine reputation. Quebec's agri-food sector holds a predominant place within the Canadian economy. This is a very tangible factor, one which many regions seek to emulate.

On average a Quebec producer earns the highest net income in the country. In 1993 the income produced by agriculture activities reached $3.8 billion. This represents 16 per cent of total Canadian revenues, while manufacturing brought in $11 billion. In the last 12 years in financial terms, the global income of Quebec farmers has increased 67 per cent.

In 1993 the value of Quebec's agri-food imports reached $1.2 billion or 9 per cent of the total Canadian export market proceeds. Quebec's hog industry holds 32 per cent of the Canadian market and is the number one seller abroad. In 1992 it accounted for $294 million or 40 per cent of all Canadian exports in this sector.

I am not taking into account the enormous potential of world-wide commercial markets. The hon. minister of agriculture has seen it himself when he recently travelled to Asia. Some of Quebec's industrial leaders such as the president of the Union des producteurs agricoles, Mr. Pellerin, and the president of the Coopérative fédérée de Québec, Mr. Massicotte, were part of the commercial delegation travelling with the hon. minister of agriculture.

There are 38,000 farms in Quebec; they help supply over 1,000 processing plants and 12,000 food stores. Quebec agriculture and the Quebec agri-food industry account for 15 per cent and 21 per cent respectively of Canada's gross domestic product in those sectors. Hundreds of thousands of jobs-415,00 jobs-depend on the Quebec agri-food sector: that figure represents 22 per cent of jobs in Canada's agri-food industry, and 14 per cent of all jobs in Quebec.

In the processing sector, the Quebec food and beverage industry accounts for 25 per cent of the Canadian market. That is a vital market. Among Quebec manufacturing industries, the processing sector is in first place in terms of value added and deliveries, and in second place in terms of direct jobs.

The processing sector has grown by 24 per cent in seven years. Nearly one-third of deliveries from the Quebec agri-food industry are destined for the rest of Canada. Agri-food sales to the provinces are three times higher than exports of the same products on world markets.

It must be recognized that this success of Quebec's agriculture is the result of the work of the people in the agricultural community. The performance I have just highlighted, however, was made possible by the support of public administrations. Indeed, the two levels of government have been intimately linked to that prosperity. And, whatever the Opposition may say, the federal government plays a role of the utmost importance in the agri-food sector. It carries out its mandate in a fair manner, taking into account the special needs of each region in the country. We provide energetic support for the expansion of industry by working in partnership with the provinces, the sectors of this industry, and the farmers.

Our income security programs, our research initiatives, our agreements with the provinces, our food inspection program, and our commitment to rural regions and to the environment are designed to ensure the vigour and growth of this industry. Our government works with the industry and the provinces in order to ensure long-term stability for producers. Together, we shall develop an income protection system that will meet the basic needs of all sectors without distorting market signals, a system that will allow farmers to make enlightened decisions based on co-operative advantage, not government programs.

The agri-food sector is an important source of jobs and economic activity. That is not the result of chance, after all! The federal government is a key player.

We have a role to play and we will play it, now and in the future. We will continue to help the industry to grow by setting up programs to promote the development of new products and new markets and improve productivity, programs to help processors, programs to promote training and programs to provide easier access to credit.

As far as GATT is concerned, the rules may have changed somewhat, but the Canadian government has successfully negotiated an agreement that protects supply management and its foundations. The Canadian economy and the economy of Quebec will benefit substantially under the agreement concluded at the GATT talks, and it is also a good agreement for Canadian and Quebec agriculture. In the course of the GATT negotiations, the Canadian government was able to obtain tariff levels that will ensure not only the survival of supply management, as I men-

tioned earlier, but also its future prosperity. The tariffs will be in effect long enough to provide a stable and secure framework for producers in the industry.

The case of our trade relations with the United States is a good example of this government's determination to defend the interests of the Canadian agri-food industry. Our firm response to the Americans and their threats of trade sanctions against Canadian wheat was praised by the industry. If necessary, we will react as promptly and vigorously in any other sector. We will not play off one region against another or one group against another group.

The Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food has 1,400 employees in Quebec. At the national level, 23 per cent of the department's employees are francophones, and the federal government invests an average of $360 million annually in the agri-food industry in Quebec.

Madam Speaker, I will share my time with the hon. member for Gatineau-La Lièvre. He will need a little less time, and I will now start my concluding remarks, since I have about a minute or two left.

I would like to quote very briefly a number of revealing figures: Federal investments worth $42 million annually in the food inspection sector whose 850 employees are spread throughout Quebec's regions, and $27 million annually plus 415 jobs in research. Incidently, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada has had a network of research establishments in Quebec since the beginning of the century. We are everywhere: Saint-Hyacinthe, Lennoxville, La Pocatière, Sainte-Foy and Normandin, to name only a few.

The federal department also spent $65 million in recent years on building or updating its research facilities in Quebec. The federal government also finances many research and marketing projects under the Canada-Quebec agreement on agri-food development and the agreement on regional development. The list of programs and agreements is a long one, representing tens of millions of dollars, and this does not include the dairy subsidy, $107 million for Quebec in 1992-93, and the fact that the agri-food sector in Quebec benefits from research carried out elsewhere in Canada, and vice-versa. Research funding provided by Agriculture Canada benefits all Canadians and all Quebecers.

In closing, our mission is quite clear. Under the auspices of consultations and through a policy of dialogue the welfare of all Canadians will be served by maintaining the wholesomeness and the marketing value of agri-food products, by developing the region's potential and diversity and by protecting agriculture resources and the environment.

Yes indeed, the agri-food industry is facing great challenges but we will meet them together. We will carry out our program in a spirit of partnership and respect for provincial jurisdictions.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

Noon

Bloc

Jean-Paul Marchand Bloc Québec-Est, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Vaudreuil. There is no doubt that with regard to research, Quebec is not unfavourably treated at Agriculture Canada, but that may well be the only one where it is not at a disadvantage. This business of federal spending inequity between Quebec and Western Canada is old news.

For the hon. member for Vaudreuil's information, inequities have existed for decades, in the sense that the federal government has been giving Quebec much less than its fair share by comparison with Western provinces. In Quebec, organizers, the Ministry of Immigration and farm organizations have met on several occasions in 1988, and in 1991, to denounce this ongoing inequity.

I want to tell the hon. member for Vaudreuil this inequity turned out to be for the best. The fact the federal government was not as involved as expected and not contributing as much as it should drew Quebec farmers closer together. That is why in Quebec, farm organizations are so well organized, motivated and aggressive; they never had the chance to grow as dependent on the federal government as some other provinces.

That is why these organizations can courageously and confidently seek harvest markets abroad. It is also why Quebec farmers are waiting with anticipation for sovereignty, because then, they will benefit from investments made in their regions to strengthen infrastructures that will help them. There is no doubt farmers are among those who stand to gain the most from sovereignty.

A second comment regarding GATT. The hon. member for Vaudreuil praised this agreement, like all government members do. He said farmers would benefit from tariffs that would help support the supply management system for a good while. But the transition period is one of the terms and conditions so poorly negotiated by the government. Six years is a rather short transition period. To compensate for article XI, the government could have obtained at least ten years to give time to the agricultural industry to adjust.

Farming is not like toy manufacturing; it is an extremely complex industry that requires a very long time to adjust to new conditions. We must admit that the Canadian government has shown weakness in the GATT negotiations by accepting a

transition period of only six years. This is one aspect among many in which the federal government was not fair to Quebec farmers.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Discepola Liberal Vaudreuil, QC

Madam Speaker, I am not sure that a question was asked. If the hon. member wants to ask me a question, I will be pleased to answer it. So far he has only made comments.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Assad Liberal Gatineau—La Lièvre, QC

Madam Speaker, of course, agriculture is a crucial sector in our country's economy. Like the industrial and technological sectors, it plays a capital and inescapable role. That much is crystal clear. The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade better known as GATT will come into effect in 1995.

For the first time in the history of international trade, GATT will subject the agricultural sector to a set of predetermined trade rules that will apply to all countries.

Article XI has been replaced with customs tariffs that will allow our supply management systems to survive in a new era of international trade.

It is impossible to overstate the importance of the agriculture or agri-food sector in our national economy, and I listened with interest to my colleagues opposite, the hon. members for Québec-Est and Vegreville, whose criticisms were not unjustified, far from it. I agree with them that there is certainly room for improvement and, as the hon. member for Québec-Est talked about grain transportation, there is no question that this government must resolve the issue of grain transportation.

It is true that it does not make sense, that there are no excuses in the world. But let us not forget that the problem has been around for years. We are not more responsible than others, except that our government has a duty to find a solution.

Although the grain and wheat sector was extremely important, previous governments let the situation deteriorate from month to month. There is no excuse and I am sure that the Minister of Agriculture and the Prime Minister are very aware that solutions must be found.

We cannot let a sector of our economy suffer as was the case in the past. There are so many issues at stake in the agricultural sector but I just want to address a few that were mentioned by our colleagues.

The hon. member for Québec-Est said that the failure of GATT with article XI-well, a failure-when all the countries in the world agree on an issue and want a trade agreement, it would be rather difficult for us to go against an agreement signed by all the other countries. Some claimed that the six-year transition period was too short, but I think that six years is more than enough time to adjust, especially with today's technologies.

Let us consider the little time we had to adjust to free trade. I do not want to start an argument with my colleague, but you used to belong to a political party that was in favour of free trade and you did not criticize the fact that we had very little time to adjust to the changes caused by free trade.

Free trade came in at a bad time and many Canadian companies were affected. The hon. member's own leader was one of those who favoured that free trade agreement-even your other colleagues in the Parti Quebecois did all they could to elect the previous government in 1988.

In any case, that transition period was so short that we have suffered the consequences. We must be consistent and know what positions we took in the past. So your argument about six years for agri-food does not stand up. I think that six years is reasonable. It is one of the factors.

Our colleague from Québec-Est also mentioned a company. I do not know if it is just by chance or because the field interests me, but he referred to a Quebec company called Interal Marketing Inc. which produces Grand Pré milk. This Quebec company exported its product to Puerto Rico where it held 40 per cent of the market and provided a good return to Quebec.

This problem arose a few years ago and I was interested in it. When I was in the opposition, I had the opportunity to raise the issue in the House and to make representations for the company.

I spoke many times with the company president, Michel Gilbert, and very recently I wanted to find out what the decision was. A panel of Canadians and Americans was set up to solve this problem, since Grand Pré makes its product in accordance with hygiene and other standards. I wish to inform my colleague from Québec-Est that I received a letter from Mr. Gilbert which says: "Thank you very much, Mr. Assad, for following up the above-mentioned matter. As a result of your efforts, the minister"-meaning the former minister, Mr. Wilson-"finally decided to refer the matter to a panel".

This question of Grand Pré is an important factor. They went to the panel. I heard recently that this panel's decision will be known in a few weeks. Like the officials at Foreign Affairs who are dealing with this issue, I am sure that the decision will be favorable and that Grand Pré products will be back on store shelves in Puerto Rico and regain the market which they held before. This is an important point.

Since the free trade agreement, many Canadian companies, not only industrial companies but also agri-food, have had difficulties. We know that the Americans have used tactics to limit access to the U.S. market because they knew that we could compete and had quality products.

As our minister said, the quality of Canada's agri-food is probably among the best in the world. That is no exaggeration; we know it is true.

As regards the part of the Department of Agriculture's budget allocated to the West, to Quebec or to any other region, the hon. member for Québec-Est said that the situation may be a blessing in disguise, because since Quebec farmers were receiving less, they set up various co-ops such as the UPA, an organization with which I worked in the past when I was a member of the National Assembly. This may provide part of the answer; it may be true. However, I am not prepared to say that Quebec did not get its share.

Let us go back to the days of Eugene Whelan, the former Liberal Minister of Agriculture who created the supply management system and quotas for dairy products. I know that the hon. member for Québec-Est worked for Mr. Whelan's department then. When milk quotas were established, which province got the lion's share? It was Quebec of course. That province was providing 48 per cent of the total dairy production. This was a major component of the province's agricultural sector. I knew many Quebec farmers who had milk cows. This was a phenomenal success for these people. Their family farm increased in value, they had a guaranteed income, and things were going well. This is something which must not be overlooked when you look at the situation of Quebec's agricultural producers.

Indeed, it is a blessing in disguise that we have to create various bodies. I attended several meetings held by the UPA and other agricultural organizations in the riding I represented as member of the National Assembly, and it is true that many initiatives were taken by our farmers in Quebec, but this is to their benefit because the market is very competitive right now. The technological sector has a major role to play. This past experience will certainly help us in the future.

As regards horticulture, I had a meeting a few days ago with officials from a Quebec provincial organization. I was told that a fantastic market exists, just south of here, in the Boston region and certain parts of New York State, where the population exceeds 15 million people. There is a very short but very important period during the year for Quebec producers, especially in the field of fruits and vegetables, when they can meet the demand.

Over the years, the agricultural sector has taken an increasingly important place in our economy. I even said before that agriculture has become more important than national defence. If we leave that sector in the hands of our neighbours or other foreigners, we will pay for that and the price might be very high. Consequently, I believe it is necessary, and in fact it is this government's responsibility, to correct the mistakes made in the past. I am convinced, considering the Minister of Agriculture's determination, that we can arrive at solutions.

I hope that the hon. member for Québec-Est will stop comparing the East and the West, or Quebec and the West, because this simply does not solve our problems.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry, but the hon. member's time has expired. We now move to questions and comments.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member.

He pointed out during his debate, quite proudly it seemed, that Quebec had received a lion's share of quota under supply management particularly in the dairy and that it was probably more than a fair share. Does the member feel that it is fair for any part of the country to get more than what would be considered a fair share of any type of program, or quota in this case?

Does the member feel that is one of the problems with the present supply managed system as it is now in that it will not allow one part of the country, which maybe can compete and should and does have a natural advantage of some type or some other type of competitive advantage, to improve competitiveness to gain a larger share of the market?

Does the member feel that this is part of the problem with the system, at least as it is now?

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Assad Liberal Gatineau—La Lièvre, QC

Madam Speaker, I must say to our colleague from Vegreville that I have always been sold on the system we have whereby we have control of the markets and the production. I have always been sold on that aspect of it.

The member posed the question: Is it good that one section can benefit by this and another section will suffer? I do not believe so.

To go back to the member's first question, I mentioned that when we came in with the gestion de l'offre-I forget the term in English unfortunately, but marketing boards or whatever it is. It is true that when it came to milk production, Quebec was the big winner with 48 per cent of the production in Canada. At that particular time in our development, yes Quebec was the big winner, but I do not think we expected it to be the big winner all of the time and it was not. There were other times when it came to agriculture in Quebec that it was not the big winner. It was probably the west that benefited. However, that was another particular time.

Over a period of 25 to 30 years, if we have in mind to correct the shortcomings, we will all benefit. We cannot feel that at one time we benefited more than at others. It just so happened that the milk production and the way we had structured it was very favourable for Quebec. But it was very favourable for the whole of Canada also in the way that our farmers were guaranteed a price and they could produce a product that was second to none from the point of view of quality and otherwise.

I do not see any problem. We have to look at the long term in agriculture. That goes for our attempts by our new Minister of Agriculture to open up in Asia and elsewhere. It is going to take time. In time we can solve our problems providing we all work together and not one against the other.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Paul Marchand Bloc Québec-Est, QC

Madam Speaker, it is actually a comment. In general, I am completely in agreement with the member for Gatineau-La Lièvre. There is little disagreement. The member for Gatineau-La Lièvre is a highly respected member of the Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

I simply wish to say that, yes indeed, concerning the milk quota, Quebec was given very generous treatment, but that may be the only sector in the federal system in which Quebec was so favoured. For example, unfortunately, in 1991, the sales of Grand Pré milk to Puerto Rico were lost. The member told us that he still hopes to win back this market for Grand Pré milk, I hope so too. Now that we have a new Minister of Agriculture, perhaps he might be persuaded to assist this industry, which accounted for 40 per cent of the Puerto Rican market.

In conclusion, article XI was concerned with free trade, but there is a difference between an open market and free trade. But, to start with, since we are speaking of Article XI, six years may not be long enough in the sectors that have quotas for such a fundamental structural change.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Assad Liberal Gatineau—La Lièvre, QC

Madam Speaker, I would just like to bring to the attention of our colleague that the period is long enough, I am convinced, to adapt to new international regulations. The problem with the six years does not lie there.

What I am concerned about in the six-year period, is whether our neighbours to the south will really follow the rules of the game. I do not wish to prejudge, but we have seen in the past that our neighbours to the south, the Americans, do not always follow the spirit of the agreement. The issue of Grand Pré milk that you have raised is a classic example. In my opinion, they found unfair tactics to prevent Grand Pré from keeping its products on the shelves of stores in Puerto Rico.

AgricultureGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to speak to you about agriculture today. I am very pleased to see that the Government has followed the example that the Official Opposition set for it by focussing the debates on agriculture. I feel that this subject is very important and goes beyond partisan matters.

The Official Opposition's first day this year was devoted to agriculture, and we now have another opportunity to make our views known. This is rather the way I see it, an opportunity to say what we feel the government should do with respect to agriculture in the years to come.

I will be speaking about this issue as a representative of the riding of Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, whose long agricultural tradition makes people very proud. This can be seen in the dairy industry, where producers have made their mark and have distinguished themselves among organizations across Canada as being very competent; the same is true in other production sectors. There is also a riding where there are institutions such as the Institut de technologie agricole and the federal government's experimental farm in La Pocatière, which certainly played a role in the development of agriculture in our region in the past.

However, I feel we should draw attention in the House to the fact that agriculture in Quebec reflects to a certain extent the situation elsewhere. We have gone from a protectionist system, a Canada-wide protected system in which Quebec's production was concentrated more in the dairy industry, and the West had certain other advantages. Now we have moved to an open system in which we will compete with the rest of North America, the Americas and the entire world. In this open system, the divergent interests that can be found in the various regions of Canada will be even more present than in the past. In a closed system, there were certain rules within which we were able to interact, but now, we will no longer be in control and we will have to ensure that each region is able to find its place in the scheme of things.

Another point is that we had a centralized system under which milk was trucked in to be processed near the markets. Under the new system, the open system, we will have to maintain a centralized approach for mass production, but at the same time, we should allow for something that does not exist today, namely, decentralizing milk supplies to small processors of agricultural products.

For instance, in Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, in my riding, we have a factory that processes organic milk. Near Trois-Pistoles, a small cheese factory, the Fromagerie Petit Loup, has started producing cheese for local markets.

In the maple syrup sector, there has been a substantial increase in exports, but there is still room for expansion. I think the minister should realize it is important to leave room for new players on our export markets. A number of large co-operatives have been involved in exporting maple syrup for a long time, but there could be room for small operators as well. In my own riding, la Cuvée de l'érable would like to develop the equivalent of an "appellation contrôlée" which already exists for wine.

These people have good ideas. They do not have much money, but they manage. What they need is some help in reaching those export markets. Right now, they are not always in a position to take advantage of these markets, and it would therefore be useful to have programs to help these small operators.

It has been said repeatedly, and I heard this at the Bélanger-Campeau Commission from the present Minister of Foreign Affairs, that in the future, we will no longer enjoy the same protection for milk production in Canada. What happens if Quebec becomes sovereign? GATT and the free trade agreements have changed the rules. The answer is, of course, that we will have to manage on our own, because we no longer have any protection. When time comes, we will have to be able to compete and face foreign markets.

In this connection, it will be very important for Quebec to diversify its products. I am thinking, for instance, of fresh lamb which has increased market share but should be able to take an even larger share of the market. This market would require Canada to look at what New Zealand, among others, is doing in that area, so that we could take a larger share of the market. This would have a beneficial impact on stabilization payments. At the present time, because we cannot sell our production in a more effective way, there are stabilization costs that could be avoided.

Beef production is another sector where production diversification should take place. Quebec does not have its share of the Canadian production and now that the Canadian system I was mentioning earlier has collapsed under international pressure to open markets, we will have to find ways to have more beef processing in Quebec.

There could also be a debate on hog production. There is a very hot environmental controversy in this area, because environment protection organizations want a production method that is not harmful to the environment. However, we know that production could be increased in Quebec and Canada, as we have developed a very enviable reputation in hog production. We should have the possibility, in the future, to intervene more adequately in that field. We should inform the whole population, because the debate around hog production is a very emotional one. The government has the responsibility to provide information where needed to ensure that people understand the situation.

What I would like to say is that in the future-because we are really talking about the agriculture of the future-we should have flexible, focused and supportive structures, capable of reacting rapidly to changing signals in the market place. In the past, since we were in a protected system, we did not have to watch markets so closely.

In the next few years, if we do not watch how the markets evolve, we may find ourselves in situations where we will produce things that consumers do not want. We are going to have to adjust very quickly, and it is very important for the government to understand that, in this area, its huge bureaucracy does not always respond with the necessary speed and that the impact on the economy could be disastrous, especially if we do not adopt adequate policies in that respect.

The main criticism I have regarding today's motion is not so much the use of the words "pro-active work", but the fact that we are still in the consultation mode. Agriculture is a sector in which the government is going to have to stop consulting and quickly implement a global intervention strategy.

It is all very well to say that we support producers, that we have a good relationship with all the organizations, but if we miss the boat, it will not solve our problems. We need an interesting global strategy.

This strategy should first promote export assistance programs. We should pave the way for new players and, since they will no longer be protected, we should help those farmers who saw themselves only as producers, play an increasingly larger role in the food chain as a whole.

Regional research and development is another issue dear to my heart. We already have the facilities. I mentioned the experimental farm in La Pocatière, but I believe that in the future, it will be important to establish adequate research and development institutions in regional areas to provide direct service to local stakeholders. We will have to avoid making the mistake of concentrating research and development establishments near major centres because, by so doing, we would prevent research and development from meeting the needs of local producers.

There is a slightly more touchy issue I would like to raise regarding the government motion, namely the fact that the government should not forget the Quebec industry. Allow me to quote what Agriculture Canada said about the Quebec agri-food industry in its corporate intervention strategy. Page 5 contains a few words about the human and cultural side of the industry and they read as follows: "Despite the efforts of the Canadian government to provide services in both languages, many Quebec entrepreneurs make too little use of the national development tools available to all Canadians. Canadian associations often have trouble adjusting to this reality. As a result, Quebec's industry often tends to withdraw into its francophone environment, a situation which presents an additional challenge for regional departmental authorities".

Mind you, these words were not written by nasty sovereigntists, but by Agriculture Canada's regional management committee for the Quebec region. We on this side are truly

concerned that in the future, language will not prevent Quebec farmers and stakeholders from getting the credit they deserve.

I would also like to mention new areas such as big game and cattle production, backgrounding, ethanol production which has already been mentioned by other members from other regions, and feed exportation.

These are areas in which we need to expand, something which was not necessarily done in the past, perhaps in light of the protectionist system in place. I mentioned the response to environmental challenges. I think it is rather obvious that if agriculture is to retain its favoured status with Quebecers and Canadians, it must meet the environmental challenges of the 21st century. This is an important consideration.

Human resources development is another important intervention sector where the Canadian government is much weaker, not because of the individuals in the system but because of the system itself. Perhaps more than other sectors, agriculture is one area that reflects the Canadian federal system's paralysis and inability to adequately meet human resources development needs.

While Canada is one of the countries that spend the most on job training, it is also one of the countries that spend the least on the person being trained in the end. In an open system like we have today, it can be said that, at the end of the day, human resources are a country's only competitive advantage.

Therefore, we have to give our agricultural labour force the training it needs to adjust to new crops and new market demands, to ensure that our people can deal with the changes. I think we must recognize our shortcomings in this respect.

The current Canadian educational structure is very out of date and does not allow us to meet needs quickly, especially in agriculture where this type of adjustment will be needed in the next few years.

I also think it is important to have an intervention tool flexible enough to accommodate various sectors such as dairy products, pork, horticulture, grain and maple syrup production, which all need their own intervention strategies. Our good old bureaucratic dinosaur may find it difficult to meet the needs of each sector and we must find adequate and effective ways to spend the money in the right places and to delegate to the right entities to avoid losing money in the bureaucratic channels and to give much more to the producers, the processors and those who put their products on the domestic and international markets.

In conclusion, Canadian agriculture as it now stands gives me the impression that it will be very difficult if not impossible to have a Canada-wide balanced policy that would not put one of Canada's regions at a disadvantage. Access to markets to the South, North-South markets, whether in British Columbia, the Western provinces, Ontario, Quebec or Atlantic Canada, will necessitate a number of very well-structured actions, and definitely not competition between provinces by which one part of Canada would gain something over another because of it has more political weight.

In that area, we have reached the same point as with the rest of the free trade issue. In the 19th century, we used to need large government structures to create vast markets, with the political market and the economic market being one and the same. We have moved beyond that now. We no longer need these big political markets to create economic markets. This happens to be one of the reasons why Quebec as a whole has supported free trade, because the concept, the essence of free trade -not the transition phases but the very principle of free trade- would be beneficial to Quebec in that it would promote increased trade with other countries, the United States in particular, as well as a return to the direction development should always have had in North America, that is to say from the North to the South, as opposed to the more artificial East-West direction established by the Canadian confederation, which does not really meet the needs of the continent in terms of development.

So, this is one thing we have to contend with in the agricultural industry, but I bet you that with their drive, farmers will manage to get by in the future. It would be important however that the governments support them appropriately. Whether you look at the future from a federalist standpoint for Canada or from a sovereigntist one like I do for Quebec, in either case, an extremely decentralized approach is called for. The centralized approach some may have known in the past will no doubt rebound on those who chose that particular approach.

We need a different approach for the various regions of Quebec.

We need a body that can make decisions quickly and we need integrated regional development. I will give an example from our area. A milk-processing plant in Trois-Pistoles closed. Now all we see are milk trucks going to Montreal and the processed milk comes back in plastic bags. This is very bad for regional development. A region is not there only to provide raw materials; it can also do processing and occupy markets. I think that free trade will be an opportunity if we take the time to adjust and can meet the needs of the market.

In conclusion, I will simply reread an excerpt from article 31, which I mentioned last week during the opposition day debate on agriculture: "The future depends on decentralized authority in the hands of regional decision-making bodies that are in touch with local reality. Unfortunately, the shared jurisdiction for agriculture and the very different interests of Canada's main agricultural regions provide poor support for the initiatives of Quebec farmers". Quebec farmers are doing the same thing as the Bloc Quebecois; they are using the federal system so that Quebec gets as much out of it as possible. But like many other interest groups in Quebec, they are beginning to realize that

sovereignty for Quebec is an essential tool if Quebec agriculture is to win on the markets of the 21st century.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened to the comments made by the hon. member opposite who uses sovereignty like sugar. Just as you put sugar on cereals and other things, the hon. member uses sovereignty here and there to try to sell it. However, he chose a very inappropriate time to do so.

For example, he said that we no longer need major markets, referring to the East-West market. If the hon. member knows agriculture like he claims to-and I am convinced that he does, after listening to him talk about dairy trucks in his riding-he should also know that this same East-West market buys some of his province's milk production, since that production far exceeds the needs of Quebecers. There is nothing wrong with that; in fact, it is a good thing and we should not deny that this situation exists. We must not say, as the hon. member seems to imply, that it is bad. Why should it be bad for Quebecers to sell milk elsewhere in Canada? Why is the hon. member trying to deprive his own constituents of this benefit?

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, I think I will have to start over again, because the hon. member does not seem to have understood very well. I referred to what the future holds, because we have to look to the future, not to the past. And if the government thinks otherwise, it will have to make some adjustments. In the future, the markets for our agricultural products, whether it is milk or anything else, will be the North American and international markets.

There is no doubt that markets are necessary for these products. We approved the free trade agreement and insisted on having acceptable conditions precisely to have access to the largest possible markets. I never said that we did not want to sell milk in Western Canada. I said that the old system, which protected production, is being replaced by a new global market in which we will have to compete.

The major part of my speech had to do with suggestions I made to the government concerning what, in the years to come, should be put in place in the agricultural sector. I only referred to the issue of sovereignty at the end of my speech, and I did so to clearly indicate that small economies such as Norway, Sweden and other countries with a population of less than ten million people can do better than the current federal system, which was not able to adjust over the years. I gave the example of vocational training where, again, the federal system was not able to adjust and avoid creating a situation in which there are about 1.5 million unemployed for 500,000 jobs available. Any system which gives such results deserves to be changed.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, after listening carefully to the member opposite, I can tell you that he did not clarify anything. He said in his speech, and he can read it himself in Hansard , that the East-West trade in agricultural products was not proceeding naturally. He even said we were faced with an artificial situation.

Earlier, he tried to make amends by saying: "Well, I was not talking about the past, but about the future." Does the hon. member consider that the east-west trade in dairy products from Quebec to other regions in Canada is artificial? Because if that is the point of view of the Bloc Quebecois, I can assure you that it is not the opinion of Quebec producers.

Interprovincial trade, in dairy products for example, seems to me very logical, but they want Quebec producers to believe that it would be better for them to have access to the bigger US market than to sell their milk elsewhere in Canada. To paraphrase Mr. Winston Churchill, who made sure he was using parliamentary terms, the opposite of the truth has never been stated so clearly before.

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, I will not use the words "bad faith" because I believe they are not acceptable here.

I have always maintained that, right now, the Quebec farm industry is ready to compete on international markets. That includes the Canadian market and the American market. And with the appropriate tools, we will be able to compete in the world market. However, to achieve this goal, we must be able to diversify our production and to go from a protected economy to a market economy where we will have more freedom.

As far as our trade activities with Western Canada are concerned, I see no problem with that, but I hope that we will be able to improve the Canadian system which has often impeded on the marketing of Quebec products on foreign markets, because the networks needed to achieve the expected results were not in place.

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12:50 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member.

If his party's cause is successful and Quebec does separate, understanding that Quebec has a large share of market quota in dairy products now, how does he expect dairy farmers in Quebec will deal with the large loss in market share that will certainly occur with a separate Quebec?

How are they going to deal with that huge loss of income and their lack of access to the Canadian market? I would assume that if supply management remains in place that the quota for the rest of Canada will be redistributed among the other provinces.

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, that is a very good question. Quebec farmers began to think about this question some years ago. What has been undertaken in Quebec is a diversification of production.

There have been production increases, and I gave some examples of them in my speech, such as the diversification of production in the area of pork, for example. In the area of milk, there is also the issue of processing products better, as well as targeting specific niches.

I gave the example of Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, where there is plant that processes biological milk, but in North America there are possible niches for this type of product, which will mean that, instead of selling the traditional quart of 1 per cent or 2 per cent milk and trying to market it to all of North America, we will be able to offer a product like biological milk processed into milk, cheese, etc., to a niche of the population interested in that type of product.

The other factor aside from milk is that there are all the other kinds of changes. It is acknowledged, for example, that in the entire Lower St. Lawrence region, the whole St. Lawrence River region really, there is excellent land and production there can be diversified. I do not say that the federal system has "imprisoned" Quebecers in milk, and that they were not pleased by this, I say that the advent of the GATT, of the international system, has led to changes and that it is necessary to face them.

The way that can be done in a sovereign Quebec will be to have total control over the way in which we want to conduct our agriculture in the future and thereby reach the right markets, without being caught in a federal system that would have to defend not only our interests but the interests of the West, which is quite natural, and the interests of the Atlantic provinces, whereas for Quebec, those interests, in the future, will coincide less and less with those of the rest of Canada.

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12:55 p.m.

Prince Edward—Hastings Ontario

Liberal

Lyle Vanclief LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food

Madam Speaker, I would like to point out to the House and to all those who are watching, particularly the dairy producers in Quebec, that the member opposite in the last few minutes commented at one stage about wanting protectionism for the dairy industry. In one of his last statements he said: "The Quebec dairy industry wants to move to a free market system". I suggest that he cannot have it both ways.

His colleague who spoke before him this morning made the statement that in his view the agreement that was reached at GATT has destroyed the orderly marketing system for dairy, eggs and poultry in Canada. There is nothing further from the truth. If anything, it strengthened it considerably, compared to what it could have been had we not negotiated as a government as well as we did on behalf of and with the producers.

In his very next statement his colleague said that the tariff protection that is there is going to make the product too expensive for consumers. I want to point out to people that the Bloc Quebecois seems to want it both ways. I suggest as the member for Vegreville said that if that is what they want and at the same time they want sovereignty and separation, they better start looking for markets.

I have had a lot of dairy producers from other parts of Canada than Quebec approach me recently and make comments about where that quota is going to go if and when Quebec separates.

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, I hope that I will have the same amount of time as the Member took to ask his question.

I feel that in the whole range of trade between Quebec and the other provinces, be it in agriculture or other areas, it is very much in people's interest, especially in Ontario, to find out who the other's best customer is. Trade between Quebec and Ontario benefits both parties. The same holds true for the other provinces. When I say that we will have access in a sovereign Quebec to the North American market, I mean that Quebec will be a party to free trade agreements and the GATT as a sovereign state, as all other countries have done.

Canada will be the first state to have an interest in Quebec's being a party to such agreements, because as long as it cannot, we will have a difficult situation on our hands. I would like to conclude simply by saying that it is important to point out that in the past, we operated according to a given system. We are now in a state of transition, and in the future we will have to interact with foreign markets. It is in this context that our agriculture initiatives must be as flexible and as mobile as possible.

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Kraft Sloan Liberal York—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Malpeque.

I have been listening to the most recent comments. While some members of this House feel that separation is a fait accompli, I can assure members that members on this side of the House do not share that point of view.

I believe that the number one priority of government is the health and well-being of its people. This government is committed to promoting and sustaining the health and well-being of rural communities through agricultural policy renewal. Our agri-food industry is at risk and we must stop its erosion by using agricultural resources more effectively.

This government is committed to rebuilding our rural communities by ensuring a more equitable share of the food dollar for farmers and their families. A healthy community is one that is not only economically viable but is also environmentally sustainable.

One of the measures that this government will undertake toward this end is rural renewal. Rural renewal is a multi-disciplinary, multi-sectoral challenge that must be addressed through a multi-departmental approach. The challenge is to form effective partnerships to bring about healthy rural development.

To encourage this the minister of agriculture has established a rural renewal secretariat that is working in partnership with all branches and levels of government as well as the private sector. The objectives of the secretariat are: to assist rural people in the realization of their developmental goals; to provide collaboration among various government programs and farm community organizations; and to promote and facilitate improvement in the economic, social and environmental conditions of Canada's agricultural communities and rural areas so that they may be sustainable and self-reliant contributors to Canada's economy.

This rural renewal secretariat is being developed through a reallocation of government resources. No new money is being used. We are not reinventing the wheel. A myriad of approaches has been tried in the past with questionable results. What most of these initiatives have clearly discovered is that rural Canada cannot be sustained by government transfer payments and cannot be rejuvenated by top down policies and programs.

The approach that shows the most promise is one which will promote and facilitate bottom up initiatives, recognizing that it is at the grassroots level where the ideas are found and the drive and dedication to make things happen occur.

The role of the federal government must be to provide the policy environment and the tools for community driven rural development. This is the course of action this government has already embarked upon and this is the course of action that will bring results.

The people who live in rural Canada must be the driving force. They are the key to building healthy rural communities. There are success stories out there, stories of people starting with an idea, creating a local business and providing employment for local people. It is the objective of the rural renewal secretariat to share these case studies to assist others in turning their ideas and their resources into sustainable businesses.

The challenge this government has taken up is to create an environment which provides rural Canada with the necessary tools to give it the opportunity to succeed.

In the red book this government committed itself to stabilization programs to reduce the impact of fluctuating markets. I am glad to report that this government has embarked on a consultative process to refurbish Canadian farm safety net programs.

This government is also actively pursuing several research and development initiatives. The government realizes that research is a key component to competitiveness in the agri-food sector of Canada. Programs include the oat research program and the PSE pork research program; not only programs but also the actions and attitudes of the minister, his parliamentary secretary and my colleagues who are actively involved in the rural caucus.

One thing is very clear. Members of the rural caucus, whether they are from the west, north, Ontario, Quebec or the maritimes, are dedicated and determined to ensure a high quality of life for the members of our rural and agri-food communities.

While the agri-food industry is not part of my own background, I live in a small village, Mount Albert, which derives its existence from the surrounding farmland. As a member of Parliament I have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know individual agri-food producers.

In the riding of York-Simcoe which I represent the First Nations people laid the foundation for our agricultural traditions. Later the United Empire Loyalists and Quakers were among the first settlers to break the land and till the soil. To this day the riding of York-Simcoe retains its agricultural heritage.

The close proximity of the Toronto market contributes to the prosperity of local agri-food producers. Since the York region is the fastest growing area, the market for York-Simcoe agri-food producers is continuously growing. The wonderful infrastructure of highways enables local agri-food producers to reach their markets.

In addition, the close proximity of St. Lawrence Starch provides an excellent opportunity for corn producers to sell their corn.

Potatoes grown in the Mount Albert region and the Alliston area are arguably the finest in the land. Although my colleagues from P.E.I. may differ, I believe York-Simcoe potatoes are superior.

The geographical position of the riding and the nature of the soil enable farmers to cultivate a variety of crops. Lake Simcoe is an undeniable drawing factor to the region and part of the watershed that helps to sustain farms in the surrounding regions.

The tourists and cottagers will note the large number of dairy and beef farms that grace the landscape of York-Simcoe. There is also the world renowned Holland Marsh. Despite its small size, the Holland Marsh produces 85 per cent of Ontario's celery, 75 per cent of its onions, 95 per cent of its lettuce and 60 per cent of its parsnips.

The Muck Research Station is also located in the Holland Marsh. This station researches all aspects of vegetable production on muck or organic soils. Extensive weed, insect and disease control research trials are conducted in co-operation with industry, Agriculture Canada and the University of Guelph.

In the Bradford district there is also the integrated pest management program which continues to develop and evolve. IPM encourages responsible crop management and a sustainable, quality food supply for Ontario. The IPM program now includes onions, carrots, celery, lettuce, potatoes and sweet corn. As a result of its implementation insecticide use in onions has been reduced by 80 per cent.

With the assistance of Agriculture Canada, this program has become a leader in IPM development in Canada and North America. It is partnership programs like the Muck Research Station and the IPM program that Agriculture Canada needs to continue to sponsor in order to further world development.

This government is tackling the rural renewal challenge in an open and honest approach based on consultation and fostering partnerships. Success or failure rests not in Ottawa nor in our provincial capitals. Rather, it rests within our rural communities so that they can become sustainable and self-reliant contributors to Canada's economy. If rural Canada prospers then all of Canada prospers.

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1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Madam Speaker, the hon. member is to be commended for her speech, especially when she stressed the need to ensure that our rural communities will have a satisfactory quality of life in the future. She said at the beginning of her speech that no Bloc member should assume that sovereignty is a fait accompli. During the election campaign, we told Quebecers that we were sovereigntists and that we were there to defend the interests of Quebec, and what we have been saying this morning is part of that approach because, surprisingly, Quebec rural communities were practically unanimous in voting for the Bloc to represent them in the House of Commons. So we can at least respect the opinions of the people who elected us.

I have the following question for the hon. member: Is she prepared to ask her government to include as part of its future policy on agriculture that farm products can be processed in the producing areas, so that for instance, if an area produces milk, beef and grain, first and second level processing can be done as much as possible in the area, and that it would provide programs to encourage this approach?

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1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Kraft Sloan Liberal York—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his comments. I would like to be assured with the fact that the Bloc is not working toward separation in Quebec.

As far as the member's comments about having processing done locally, if we think of what community economic development is all about, it is ensuring that we have healthy local economies. By that I mean economies that serve the local community and do not contribute to environmental degradation but contribute to the ability of people to work locally so that they can spend money and spend time with their families locally.

It is also very important when we are thinking of the agri-food industry to think of the effects of hauling raw materials over long distances and what that means for the quality of our food. That is a consideration as well.

However, as the hon. member knows, it is not government that dictates the policy of the private sector. Therefore while we can look at measures that encourage local community economic development it is not the federal government's place to tell the private sector where it has to produce and how it has to produce.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member's speech in which she alluded to the fact that rural Ontario has a lot of challenges in front of it.

As a farmer I agree with her. In fact, one of the major problems, and I would like the opinion of the member on this, is a lack of education as to what happens in rural Ontario compared with what is happening in urban Ontario or Canada for that matter.

I am wondering if the member would tell me what kind of an education process she envisions to better inform urban Canada of what happens in rural Canada.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Kraft Sloan Liberal York—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

He probably has some understanding of my background which is in education and not directly in the agri-food industry. It is absolutely crucial that those Canadians who live in the densely populated urban areas understand the impact of our agri-food and rural communities on their health and well-being.

The area of connection is around food. When we talk about the quality and sovereignty that this nation must have over its own food, when we talk about the right kind of price, fair pricing for our food, that is a point on which rural and urban communities can connect.

There is a bit of a misconception out there that farmers are somehow benefiting greatly because of the price charged for food. If you look at what is actually given in terms of the farm dollar at the farm gate it is quite low in terms of all of the hands that this money flows through.

When consumers go to a grocery store or a restaurant they may be concerned about the price of food, but that is an important area to start talking about, what actually happens within the processing food management, food growing system. That is one area of interaction.

Another area of interaction is understanding the way our rural communities support our urban communities economically. What are the things our farmers need to have in order to have effective farms in agri-food businesses? What kinds of equipment and other supplies do they need? Also, there is the fact that they contribute to our towns and villages because they come into the larger centres and they shop and they buy.

I think if we take a look at food, that interface and the economic contribution even though there are fewer and fewer Canadians who are directly involved in the agri-food industry we will see what a tremendous benefit it is indeed to Canada.