Debates of May 6th, 1994

Defence Industries

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not seem to have understood the point I was making in my first answer.

We are working very hard to assist corporations which are in the process of conversion. It is just that the approach and the design of DIPP is going to be different from what it was in the past. Part of that has to do with the fact that we have a very tough fiscal framework within which we are dealing.

The hon. member should also know there are many examples of good solid success stories. People with their own expertise are using other resources like the Export Development Corporation and the banks which have been more progressive in the last little while as well as enhanced marketing. These are all new approaches that help bridge this period of conversion.

As we redesign DIPP eventually this will deal with this issue in a way that will satisfy most of these industries.

The Deficit

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

The budget presented yesterday in the province of Ontario is evidence that the provinces and the federal government can no longer operate in budget isolation of each other.

This government is initiating through the Minister of Human Resources Development a national strategy on social reform. The Prime Minister is chairing a national forum on health care. Is it not time for the federal government in consultation with the provinces to initiate a national strategy on deficit reduction?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, certainly the thrust of the hon. member's question is one we would agree with completely.

As the member knows, at the first federal-provincial finance ministers meeting we discussed that very subject and at the second meeting in Halifax we put a great deal of meat on the bones. In fact we want to develop a common effort between us toward reducing the terrible burden of deficit and debt that the nation suffers from.

We recognize very clearly that there really is only one taxpayer. There is one Canadian who shoulders the burden of federal, provincial and municipal debts. We intend to deal with it jointly.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, in light of the hon. minister's answer, I ask the minister the following:

First of all, what are the targets and objectives that the minister is establishing for the federal government along with the provinces in terms of a deficit reduction strategy?

Second, in co-ordination with that question, is the minister prepared to make this the number one item on the agenda of the finance ministers meeting in June? Out of that meeting will there come specific targets and objectives not only for the federal government but the provinces as well?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows the federal government's point of view is that we have explicit deficit reduction targets.

We are certainly prepared, as we have done at the previous two meetings, to have that on the agenda. I can assure him it will be on the agenda for the meeting that will be held in June. Depending upon those discussions, if we are able to come up with national objectives, this is one Minister of Finance who would certainly support the concept.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, in the government's plan for deficit reduction one of the objects is to reduce the transfer payments to provinces. The minister knows the consequences of doing that.

First of all, we offload part of the federal deficit problem on the provinces. Second, by removing funding from the provinces in terms of transfers without easing the obligation in terms of funding services, we create a problem for the provinces.

Will the minister deal with that question in full co-operation and full discussion with the provinces so that the provinces know what the actions of the federal government will be? They could therefore plan on a longer term basis their deficit reduction programs in co-operation with the federal government.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we did at the January meeting. It is precisely what we did in the budget.

At the January meeting I notified the provinces that we would not be unilaterally shifting debt on to them as previous governments had done simply in advance of their budgets.

We told them there would be a moratorium of two years under which we would attempt through the good auspices of the Minister of Human Resources Development to renegotiate the whole fabric of our social programs. Therefore what we would really end up with would be more efficient programs, more cost effective programs. These programs in the end would not only save the federal government money, but would save the provincial governments money because they would be far more efficient.

In other words, our goal is not to shift the burden on to the provinces; it is to give Canadians better service at a better price.

Mil Davie Shipyard

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

The General Investment Corporation, the main shareholder of MIL Davie, yesterday approved the firm's business plan, which was also forwarded to the federal government. The General Investment Corporation said it would be willing to add $135 million to help revive MIL Davie.

Will the minister admit that by postponing his decision, the way he has done for the last six months, on the construction of a ferry for the Magdalen Islands and on the development of the smart ship, he is also postponing this shipyard's recovery and putting in jeopardy thousands of jobs in the Quebec City area?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I find it rather strange that in the same question the hon. member can say that the business plan of MIL Davie was given to us yesterday and then accuse me of having delayed my decision six months. Please, let us be serious.

The reason why the decision on the ferry has not been announced yet, and why the Minister of Transport is waiting, is that we want to act in the best interest of the Magdalen Islanders. We want to provide them with a ferry service between the islands and Prince Edward Island which would be adequate, effective and safe. To that end, we are trying to negotiate a solution with MIL Davie.

You should learn to be fair and to react positively to government initiatives taken precisely with a view to help you.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister should remember that the Prime Minister and his chief of staff saw the business plan before and during the election campaign. Now that he has everything in front of him, now that all the interested groups-the unions and the Conseil du patronat-in the Quebec City area are in agreement, what he is waiting for before deciding?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, since this matter is of great interest to the people who use the ferry, I will try to be as objective as possible.

To suggest that the Prime Minister and his chief of staff had the business plan during the election campaign, after saying it was handed to us yesterday, this is assuming that we are damn stupid.

[The Speaker]

I would ask the minister to talk to the Chair.

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the service between Prince Edward Island and the Magdalen Islands is absolutely essential and part of my responsibilities as Minister of Transport. We would have liked to have been able to answer months ago the legitimate request, made years ago, to replace the Lucy Maud Montgomery .

Now that a business plan has been made public, I am sure that with Minister Tremblay from Quebec, whom I met this week with my colleague the Minister of Industry, we will take all the necessary means to find a solution, not only for the people who need a ferry, but also for the workers of MIL Davie. It would help if hon. members knew the case a little better.

Bill C-18

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the government House leader. In spite of twice trying, the government House leader has been unable to persuade the Senate to pass Bill C-18 and stop electoral redistribution.

Yesterday a Senate committee passed substantial amendments to the bill. Will the government give serious consideration to these amendments, or better yet, withdraw its support for Bill C-18 and stop the waste of Parliament's time and money on this legislation?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, it is the government's intention with Bill C-18 not to stop redistribution but to give the House an opportunity to review and update the process which has not been reviewed fully since it came into effect in 1964.

Second, I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on a report of the other place. The other place as a whole has not yet dealt in a final way with Bill C-18. When it does we here will have to take into consideration the final decision of the Senate and I am sure we will do that very actively.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that Bill C-18 in its present form will stop redistribution until after the next election.

My supplementary is for the same minister. The readjustment process has reached a point where, even if public hearings were cancelled, not a penny will be saved.

Is the government ready to accept the Senate Committee recommendations and allow the public hearings to go on in order that the commissions may submit their reports without undemocratic and unconstitutional intervention called for in Bill C-18?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

First, Mr. Speaker, the government's position is that the bill is totally constitutional. It bears the certificate of the law officers of the

crown that it meets the requirements of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Furthermore, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the activities of a committee of the other place before the other place has even made a final decision.

If the hon. member is concerned about this matter he should reflect on why, when this bill was before the House, he was indicating that if it only capped the number of seats at the present level he and his party were ready to support it.

Indian Affairs

[Maurice Bernier, Bloc, Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we heard this morning that Indian Affairs was about to intervene in order to prevent the Quebec Department of Revenue from revoking the license of 12 aboriginal service stations owing $3.8 million to Quebec Revenue. Indian Affairs was also rumoured to have accepted that an equivalent amount of $3.8 million of transfer money granted to the band council be used to pay the amounts owed.

Can the Minister for Indian Affairs confirm that his department is about to take extraordinary steps to prevent Revenue Quebec from revoking the licenses of 12 service stations at fault?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the hon. member that this is not true. Yesterday and this morning I talked with Mr. Christos Sirros about the service stations. There is a problem, but there is no agreement between us. Even if I had the money I would not do it.

Our problem is with 12 stations, private businesses, and we have the band year. I am a fiduciary and the government's fiduciary of the funds that belong to the band. Not only can I not do this, I would not use band moneys to solve a government tax problem between basically private enterprise and the government.

[Maurice Bernier, Bloc, Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Minister confirms that there is no such transaction or dealings between the Quebec government, his department and the band council, what guarantee does he have that the funds granted to the band council will not be used for that purpose?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, there are two guarantees: my word and the law. The hon. member can rely on both.

Employment

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister who said in the House just a few minutes ago that 115,000 new jobs were created since February. She also indicated that 74,000 of these jobs were created in Quebec. That is about 64 per cent of these jobs.

Now that unemployment is up to 11 per cent from 10.6 per cent, what has the government done with its infrastructure programs? What has the red book done? What has the sunny sky scenario done for Newfoundland, for P.E.I., for British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I think the member should be very careful about characterizing the issue of employment or unemployment as a Quebec versus Canada issue.

If he will review what I answered, what I said was that there were 115,000 new jobs created since February across the country and that in the province of Quebec since August of 1993 there were 74,000 jobs created. Those numbers are not for the same period: 74,000 jobs in Quebec since August 1993; 115,000 jobs created across the country by the government since February. That is what I said. That is what I stand by.

Unfortunately the member continues this vicious attack on unemployed people, whether they be in Quebec or any other part of the country. We want to find jobs for every unemployed Canadian.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister has no idea what a vicious attack is.

Quite frankly the government has talked about infrastructure programs, about red book programs. What it has delivered in the House of Commons, to the country, is an unemployment rate that is increasing.

What is the Deputy Prime Minister's forecast for next month? Perhaps in June she will know what an attack is if those numbers go up again.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.