Debates of Oct. 24th, 1995

Small Business Loans Act

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will try this one more time. The member talks about its being a simple concept. Indeed it is a very simple concept.

In his hometown I am sure there must be an insurance broker who in his daily operations will have a provision for doubtful accounts. It is a fact in the course of doing business. That insurance broker will say: "It is a normal operation that I will lose 2 per cent to 3 per cent of my accounts receivable every year. If I were so perfect as to have a 0 per cent, I would be a very unusual business; I would be a business that did not take any risk". Small business is about taking a certain degree of risk.

Those bad debt losses within that business are shared and borne by all the other customers by definition. Therefore there is nothing strange or unusual about the government's orientation to this and I am really quite surprised the member does not understand it.

Have I made it any clearer for the member?

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to be brief and lucid. He used the example of an insurance broker. If the broker has 2 per cent or 3 per cent of his debts go bad which he has to account for, that is fine and he builds it into his margin. However, the point I am trying to make is why should he have to build into his margin an amount of money which is channelled through the government to reimburse his competitor across the street who may be reckless and have a 10 per cent bad debt situation? That makes no sense.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 5.53 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business.

National Horse Of Canada Act

[Ian Murray, Liberal, Lanark—Carleton, ON]

moved that Bill C-329, an act to provide for the recognition of the Canadian Horse as the national horse of Canada, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have my private member's Bill C-329 reach the floor of the House of Commons today. Unfortunately the bill has not been chosen as a votable item, however it certainly represents a part of our history which deserves to be celebrated.

The purpose of the bill is to bring appropriate recognition to the Canadian horse, the official designation of the breed. I believe it is a symbol of Canadian heritage. I believe we should take every

opportunity to celebrate those aspects of our history which make Canada unique.

There are several precedents for the kind of recognition I have proposed for the Canadian horse. Some years ago Parliament passed a bill which designated the beaver as Canada's national animal. Recently we recognized hockey and lacrosse as our national sports. That kind of celebration of our heritage is neither frivolous nor unimportant. We need more symbols to add to the rich tapestry which is Canada's history.

As we debate the bill today Canadians are watching with concern the debate taking place in Quebec which is so important to our future. When I introduced Bill C-329 I was well aware that the history of the Canadian horse began in New France, now the province of Quebec, and I believe if we embrace the goal of the bill it would make some small contribution to national unity.

Alex Hayward, a Canadian horse owner who lives near North Gower, Ontario, brought to my attention the idea of giving the Canadian horse national status through a private member's bill.Mr. Hayward grew up with the Canadian horse and insists "they can do everything but dance".

After researching this breed we did note in several documents that the Canadian horse was declared our national breed by Parliament on March 17, 1909. Unfortunately nowhere in the debates of Parliament could this be verified. Therefore I set out to bring some attention to a breed of horse which has worked our lands as far back as the 1600s.

The introduction of the Canadian horse to Canada dates back to King Louis XIV of France in 1665. The horses were delivered to the governor of New France at Stadacona, now known as Quebec City. King Louis felt a knight should not be without a horse, and the horses were presented as noble gifts in order to keep his colonists happy.

The exact breeding of this horse is unknown. It was not until 100 years later that accurate breeding records were kept by horse breeders. However, historians believe that the blood lines are from the Arabian, Barb and Andalusian stocks. In 1667 and 1670 further shipments of this horse were received and their numbers reached 12,000 strong by the year 1760.

It has been noted that the Canadian horse was the first to clear Canadian soil. This versatile breed cleared, ploughed and cultivated the soil. In addition they were used as carriage, riding and race horses. This small, swift, rugged and strong horse seldom reaches 1,100 pounds and is from 14.3 to 15.2 hands high. Therefore the average Canadian horse would be about five feet high.

As the years went on France was constantly at war and was unable to support its colony. For the next century and a half the horses in New France were bred and multiplied, with no outside blood lines changing the breed. However, when the British arrived in the late 1700s they brought with them other breeds of horse. Upon arrival of the British many French settlers moved on to Manitoba and the United States and took their Canadian horses with them.

The American civil war created great demand for cavalry mounts. The Canadian horse was the right size and was well known for its tough constitution. This made it well suited to the hardship and rigours of war. Exports from Canada increased greatly and prices were very high. Many horses were killed in the war and those that survived never returned to Canada. By the late 18th century these factors threatened the continuation of the Canadian horse and so action was taken then to preserve this fine breed.

In 1885 a stud book was started to keep accurate records of the breed and in 1895 the Canadian Horse Breeders Association was formed. The federal ministry of agriculture maintained a breeding centre from 1913 until the second world war forced its closure in 1940. The Canadian horse has supplied foundation stock to many breeds, in particular the Morgan and the Standardbred. It has been estimated that by 1850 half of the horses in Canada carried some trace of Canadian blood.

In The Canadian Horse by Gladys Mackey Beattie the strength and endurance of the breed are well described. There are recorded instances of Canadian horses trotting from Quebec city to Montreal and from Montreal to Cornwall, stopping only when their drivers needed refreshment.

Another example was noted in the Breeders Gazette of Chicago written in 1914: `A wood merchant, owner of Canadian horse weighing approximately 1,050 pounds, harnessed it on the same pole beside another horse, 200 pounds heavier. The Canadian horse always kept its harness traces well stretched and never showed as much fatigue as its heavier mate. After two years of common work, the heavy horse died. Questioned on the cause of this death, the driver answeredIt is the Canadian horse that made him die of overwork'. Another heavy horse teamed with the same Canadian horse died after a year and the Canadian was still in perfect condition''.

We should also pay tribute to that small band of Canadian horse breeders past and present, without whom this important part of our heritage would have been lost. In this respect I would like to thank Alex Hayward and his friend, the late Don Prosperine, from Dunrobin, Ontario, which is in my riding of Lanark-Carleton. Those two gentlemen decided in 1978 to become partners in a project to breed the Canadian horse. They spent a year and a half searching in Quebec for suitable specimens. From their beginning with one stallion and two mares their stock increased to 28 Canadians. Don Prosperine's son, Frank, continues the family tradition on his farm in Dunrobin where he has 18 Canadians.

In conclusion, I want to thank those of my colleagues who have shown an interest in this part of our heritage and who are taking part in the debate today. I also want to thank the people from across Canada who wrote their member of Parliament in support of Bill C-329. Finally, congratulations to the Canadian Horse Breeders Association as it celebrates its centennial this year.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his words on the Canadian horse. From what I have read about this horse it seems like an outstanding candidate for the title of national horse of Canada.

The hon. member has talked about the history of this animal: how it came from France; its ability to stand up in Canada's cold weather and the varied seasons; its strength and its intelligence. All of those things are wonderful. It is a lot like Canadians in that sense. For that reason I cannot say anything against the bill. I do not have a problem with the Canadian horse or even with the concept of having a national horse for Canada.

However, I am wondering, when we are six days away from a referendum on the break-up of the country, why we are talking about these types of issues. It is an issue which the hon. member could handle in a member's statement or in a letter writing campaign. There are ways of handling these types of issues.

Frankly, when we are bringing private members' business to the House of Commons, it should be a little more relevant to the national agenda. For crying out loud, in six days we are going to have a referendum about the break-up of the country. That is the type of thing members should be bringing to Private Members' Business to discuss. There is no reason in the world we could not have had a bill today regarding the devolution of powers and how that might affect Canada and the possibility that Quebec would remain in the country. There is absolutely no reason we could not have had that debate.

All kinds of excellent legislation has come from private members. That is the type of thing we should see in this hour.

We have a debt of some $560 billion and it is going up $90 million a day. It will be going up more now that interest rates will be spiked as a result of all the uncertainty over the Quebec referendum. To me, that is the type of thing we should reserve this time for.

Last night on television I saw that a transit worker was stabbed to death in Toronto. He was the first ever transit worker to be murdered in Toronto. This Ontario member could have brought forward legislation to deal with that type of thing.

I truly do not want to denigrate what the hon. member has done. However, I believe that Private Members' Business should be set aside for things which are more germane to the public agenda in Canada. I know that Canadians are outraged at some of the things which are going on and that nothing is being done. We cannot prod the government to do it, so let us prod private members to do it. Let us get them to bring forward the legislation.

There are 97 or 98 government MPs from Ontario in the House. The hon. member brought forward a bill to make the Canadian horse the national horse of Canada. Fine. But a lot more essential legislation could have come forward to deal with the issues I have just talked about.

Would it not be great if a Toronto MP, along with 19 or 20 other Toronto MPs, brought forward legislation to deal with crime. We could point to the example of what happened in Toronto the other night, where we saw that man stabbed to death on TV. It was outrageous. We have to do something about those types of things. We cannot continue like that.

In small ways almost every day we are seeing the erosion of the rule of law, not the breakdown, but the erosion in a lot of ways. Some people are becoming so disrespectful for the rule of law. Let us have legislation to deal with that sort of thing.

Another thing we could be dealing with today and it would help the hon. member and his cause, would be to see Parliament and individual parliamentarians bring forward legislation through Private Members' Business to free up MPs to vote the wishes of their constituents on certain pieces of legislation. There is no reason in the world that we could not have legislation like there is in Britain today. They can defeat their own government's bill without bringing down the government. In other words, there would be a motion of non-confidence after defeating a specific piece of legislation.

Imagine how Canadians would feel about their House if that is what happened here. It would be astounding. It would be a revolution. People would have new confidence in this place. As politicians, I think members across the way would agree that we have a vested interest in doing what we can to improve the very poor reputation of politicians. That would go a long way to doing that.

One thing we could bring forward is balanced budget legislation. The situation today is that we are going in the hole approximately $19 million a day. Every day that goes by we go into the hole a little further. To me that is absolutely immoral when we consider the effect it will have on our children.

I have two boys back home; one is seven and one is eleven. Many members have young children. It is really immoral for us to be living today at their expense. We must move quickly if we are to be worthy of our title as parliamentarians to make sure that comes to an end. We have to quit spending them into poverty down the road.

I do not want to talk for a long time. I want to say again that Private Members' Business should be set aside for very important issues, for issues that are important to the country as a whole.

I appreciate the argument that this horse is part of our heritage. I also know and the member has noted that this horse was recognized by cabinet I believe in 1909. I would argue that because of the fact that the horse already has the title Canadian horse, because of its proud history, we have certainly already given it a lot of profile. I would argue that there are other ways, through statements under Standing Order 31, through a letter campaign to other MPs, through recognition by provincial legislatures and that kind of thing that we could make the point.

I will conclude by thanking the hon. member for his initiative. I also encourage members across the way, in my own party and in the Bloc, to bring forward the best possible and most important legislation they can think of when they deem it appropriate to bring a bill forward through Private Members' Business.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the bill to provide for the recognition of the Canadian horse as the national horse of Canada affects many Quebecers and particularly breeders. It is therefore a pleasure for us to represent them by taking part in this debate.

In perusing Bill C-329, we learn that the horse was sent by the King of France, was invaluable to settlers in their efforts to survive and prosper. We learn that the horse has a number of fine qualities, including strength, endurance, intelligence and good temper.

We also learn that it was nearly lost at one point through interbreeding and casualties in war. Allow me to add a few points, because I believe it is important to understand the history of this exceptional animal and see how it developed.

The very first horse to touch the soil in New France arrived in Quebec City on June 25, 1647. At that time it was called the Canadian horse, and there were no horses in this part of North America. The region's dense and broad forests effectively prevented crossbreeding with other types of horses. There was no possibility of interbreeding with the breeds of horse brought in by the English and by the Spaniards in the south.

It was only after 1759 that export to the United States and crossbreeding with other types of horse became a possibility, and the numbers of the purebred Canadian horse began to decrease.

Sometime around 1880, faced with the real threat of the breed's disappearance, people decided to act. Quebecers like François Pilote, Édouard Barnard and, particularly, Dr. J.A. Couture, a veterinarian, decided to ensure the species' survival by selecting and breeding the best of the remaining horses. Dr. Couture, among others, gathered in a breed book all of the subjects combining the breed's distinctive characteristics to ensure their protection.

Thus, through this brief history, we can see that the Canadian horse arrived and was bred in Quebec. Those who raised and trained them were the inhabitants of what would become Quebec. These same people took steps to ensure that this symbol of strength and pride would not disappear from our continent.

In the light of these facts, it would be a good idea perhaps for any future recognition of this horse as the national horse to contain greater reference to Quebecers' contribution to its survival and conservation.

Furthermore, since the government of Quebec is currently considering a similar request, it seems more in keeping with history that any recognition of this breed as a national emblem should come from the Quebec National Assembly rather than from the House of Commons.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to enter the debate on Bill C-329 to recognize the Canadian horse.

I must admit I am not knowledgeable about horse breeding. One of my constituents brought the bill to my attention. As I read over the history of this horse in Canada, I realized it is part of our identity, part of our cultural history. The member from the Reform Party who went into great dissertation about the irrelevance of the legislation, I believe, misses the very important point that cultural identity is what makes a nation.

Looking at the history of this horse, in 1665 it originally came from the royal stables of King Louis XIV. It was situated in New France. During that time the breed strengthened and became larger until 1759 at the time of the collapse of New France.

It is interesting to study political economics. It is something I have always been fascinated with. There is always so much concern about what happened on the Plains of Abraham in revisiting our history of those days. If we were to study the history of New France prior to the Wolfe-Montcalm battles, we would discover an economy that was rampant with inflation, high debt and high unemployment. It is interesting that these are some of the very problems we have today.

After the collapse of that economy, many French speaking people of New France left the province. They went to Manitoba.

Do we see any similarities between some of these things and some of the debates that are happening in our House today? The Canadian h orse typifies Canada itself, often struggling against tremendous forces of nature and social situations, sometimes

becoming almost extinct, and from the brink of that extinction fighting back, becoming stronger, becoming more proficient.

I often like to view art. The members of the Reform Party do not seem to have much interest in art. If we go to the National Gallery we will see a number of paintings there by Cornelius Krieghoff. Cornelius Krieghoff of course was not a Quebecer, but he painted at the time of New France. In those pictures you will constantly see the Canadian horse. That is very much part of our cultural identity. That is also why it is very important that this nation continue to exist, because we have something very special to protect. A horse clearly cannot run on three legs. The Canadian horse is not just part of Quebec; it is part of all of Canada.

As a previous speaker has mentioned, there is quite a breeding operation not far from the Hill, in North Gower. When I read the background of this horse, that also rang a familiar bell with me, because the last time I went horseback riding was in North Gower.

In conclusion, in looking at the struggles this horse has been through, it is very appropriate that he is called the Canadian horse. More important, it is incumbent upon us in this House to look at those things that make us a nation rather than those things that divide us.

The struggle for Canada in this part of North America has not always been easy and has often been met by trials and tribulations and indeed death. Often our concern in this country was to protect ourselves from the Americans south of the border through wars and now even the consistency of cultural identity in Canada. We continue to resist the imposition of American culture in our society and we continue to strive for the dominance that is Canada's culture. This horse is a symbol of that.

I am very happy to support this bill. I want to remind some of my colleagues in the House that we must always fight for a united Canada.

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to have this opportunity to speak on the bill before the House by my colleague from Lanark-Carleton, Bill C-329, an act to recognize the Canadian horse as the national horse of Canada.

The history of this breed is impressive. The Canadian horse was introduced into Canada in 1665, when the King of France sent horses from his own stables to the people in his North American colony. The breed thrived and multiplied in its new home from 145 head in 1679 to over 5,000 in 1720, in that short period of time.

The history of the Canadian horse is also the history of Canada's agricultural pioneers. These animals became an invaluable ally to the settlers in their efforts to survive and prosper in their new homes.

I want to talk about this for a minute, because I found it very interesting. When the member from the third party was here he said we should be talking about more important things in the House right now. We have a motto on my farm back home. The motto is very simply this: mindful of the past, planning for the future. It goes to show members how important our history is to us in this country. If we have no past, we really do not have much to look forward to in the future.

In these days of tractors and modern machinery, when a farmer goes out to plow his field he hops into a 100-plus horsepower tractor that is pulling anywhere from six to ten furrows behind him in an air conditioned cab. He is listening to the radio and the markets as he is doing his job. However, back in the days of the Canadian horse, a farmer went out and had a single furrow in front of him, the horse in front of him, the reins around his neck, two hands on the handles, and he went out plowing.

Today, with the equipment we have we can plow 15 to 20 acres a day. Back then, a farmer plowing a field with a horse in front of him could do two acres a day. Members might be interested to know that for every acre he plowed behind a horse he had to walk 10 miles. For the farmer to do two acres a day he would walk 20 miles. I should be getting more exercise like this.

The horse has always been there. I come from Grey County in Ontario. When the surveys of Grey County were first being done there were two surveys. One was called Rankin and the other was called Trainer. The distance from Owen Sound down to Hamilton is about 150 to 180 miles. When these gentlemen were setting out the surveys to lay out the townships and the roads and everything in the early 1800s, which does not seem all that long ago, the fields were not there. It was all covered with forests. These gentlemen came with backpacks and horses from Owen Sound. They worked their way down and set up food caches all the way through. They came from Hamilton and worked their way up so they could start to do these surveys. The surveys took quite a while.

When the surveys were done, of course, there was still a forest to clean away so we could get into agriculture with open fields. The horse was there again. The farmers were cutting down trees and were using horses to pull those trees and stumps away.

This summer I was up in Collingwood, which is part of my riding. They have a fair up there called the Great Northern Exhibition. They show horses up there. It is part of our heritage, our past. I watched and handed out trophies this year for the horse pulls. It is a very competitive atmosphere.

In my own village of Holstein, we have a Santa Claus parade every year. One of the prerequisites to be in that parade is to have a horse-drawn float. There are Mennonites and Old Order Mennonites in my area who use horse-drawn equipment, the horse and buggy, the democrat. Maybe the pages do not know what a

democrat is. It is a long wagon affair with a number of seats in it, which a sizeable family can sit in. Some of these families have eight to ten kids, all behind the horse.

In the Depression years our family lived on a farm. We had a large stand of timber on the farm and we sold wood. How did we get it to town? We hauled it with a horse. This was all part of agriculture.

The Canadian horse is known for its strength and endurance. There have been a number of historical accounts of the horse's performance and ability to outperform animals of much greater size. I am talking about Belgians and Percherons, horses of that kind, which are sizeable horses when you get beside them. Never get stepped on by one. I did when I was a child.

One story tells of a butcher who hooked his Canadian horse to a buggy and travelled 250 kilometres from Quebec City to Montreal in less than 12 hours, outracing the overnight steamer that was racing against him to collect an unpaid bill.

There was another account from the Breeder's Gazette of Chicago in 1914. I think the hon. member touched on this, but I will say it again, because we have to show how good the Canadian horse is. It is not very often that we in this House beat our own drum on how good we are as Canadians. I think we should do it more often. The Canadian horse is a good example. We have a wood merchant who was the owner of a Canadian horse weighing approximately 1,050 pounds. He harnessed it to the same pull against another horse about 200 pounds heavier. The Canadian horse was always kept in its harness traces, well stretched and never showed as much fatigue as his heavier mate. After two years of common work the heavier horse died. The question on the cause of death'', the driver answered,is the Canadian horse made him die of overwork''.

That goes to show how good this breed is that we are trying to recognize as something that is Canadian. Canada should be very proud too because as a united country we are number one in the world today. Again I have to stress the fact that my colleague from the third party seems to miss this point. I find it unfortunate that he and my Bloc colleagues they do not understand how good they have it right now.

Despite its qualities the Canadian horse almost faced extinction through inbreeding and neglect. In 1886 a few admirers banded together to establish a breed registry or a stud book listing all the purebreds.

In 1907 a second book was opened and the federal government department of agriculture funded a panel of judges to survey approximately 2,500 horses out of which only 969 were acceptable and registered as foundation stock. That is how close we were to losing the Canadian horse.

Between 1913 and 1981 the federal and Quebec governments launched programs to maintain the breed. However, in 1976 with only 383 Canadian horses left on record, once again the horse was destined to disappear. This is what the hon. member across was talking about, this resiliency of Canadians. We bounce back. We will bounce back. We always do bounce back. The Canadian horse is a good example of this.

During the past 10 years there has been a resurgence of interest in the breed. People are rediscovering the little iron horse. Is that not a great way of describing a symbol of Canada, the little iron horse. It is a gentle hardworking breed, an intelligent, multi-purpose horse. There are breeders in my riding of Wellington-Grey-Dufferin-Simcoe that have written to me to proudly describe these animals, which is one of the reasons I am here today supporting the member's bill.

This bill provides us with an opportunity to celebrate this uniquely Canadian horse. We owe much to it for its hard work in developing this country and I encourage all the members to support this bill.

[Gurbax Malhi, Liberal, Bramalea—Gore—Malton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to speak in favour of Bill C-329, an act to provide for the recognition of the Canadian horse as the national horse of Canada.

Since their introduction into Canada in 1665, the "little iron horses" have served Canadians well. Not only were they used for driving and riding but they were also used for clearing land, cultivating and hauling. They may have begun their lives as pampered pets in the royal stables of King Louis XIV but once they were shipped to Canada they had to earn their keep.

The early history of the Canadian horse in some ways resembles that of the colonists themselves. In her pictorial history of the Canadian horse, Gladys Mackey Beattie notes that due to natural selection, only the strongest managed to survive. The conditions under which they had to exist gave them endurance found in no other breed.

Over time the horses became smaller in size than the original imports, but they were much more hardy, could thrive on meagre rations, trot tirelessly through mud or snow by day or night, matured at an early age and were long lived as well. Many stories are told of the strength and stamina of the little horses who could eat less but do more work than other horses almost twice their weight, and they could run. The record books of the 1800s are full of references to record times of the pacers and trotters descended from Canadian horses.

The historian, Faillon, described the horse as "small but robust, hocks of steel, thick mane floating in the wind, bright and lively eyes, pricking sensitive ears at the least noise, going along day or night with the same courage, wide awake beneath its harness, spirited, good, gentle, affectionate, following his road with finest instinct to come surely to his own stable". What fitting attributes for a national symbol.

There is also another reason to recognize this uniquely Canadian breed as our national horse, that is its need for protection and encouragement. Throughout history, despite its strength and stamina and sometimes because of it, this little horse has often been in real danger of extinction. After 1670, the last year that horses were shipped to Canada as gifts to nobility, the 40-odd horses in New France multiplied. Their numbers reached 5,200 by 1720 and 12,000 by 1760. However when the British captured Quebec in 1759 the fortunes of the Canadian horse began to decline. British immigrants brought their own horses and bred them to the durable little Canadians, depleting the purebred stock.

Many French Canadians packed up and moved away to Manitoba or the United States, taking their horses prized for their cross breeding qualities with them. From 1861 to 1865 thousands of Canadian horses were shipped to the U.S. to be used as cavalry mounts and pack horses during the American civil war. A great many died in the war and those that survived never returned to Canada.

By the end of the 19th century only a small number of pure blooded Canadian horses were left. Despite breeding programs only 383 registered Canadian horses were on record as of 1976, and the future of the breed seemed pretty dark. Since the late 1970s determined Canadian horse lovers and breeders who believe it is a perfect all-purpose family horse have increased the numbers to the point where the breed is no longer in danger of disappearing.

As gentle, relaxed and intelligent as they are, some breeders believe they will be in greater and greater demand for tourist activities from endurance trail rides to pulling visitors through the narrow streets of our oldest cities.

However until now the horse that can "do everything but dance" has certainly not received the recognition and honour it deserves. The little iron horse was an integral part of the lives of Canadians more than 300 years ago, working alongside our first colonists and doubling as carriage horses for the family and race horses on Sundays and holidays.

All in all it is what J. G. Rutherford, federal veterinary director and livestock commissioner, reportedly testified before a parliamentary committee in 1909 when he said that it was "the best general purpose horse raised in Canada".

It is high time we recognize it as Canada's official national horse and I thank my hon. colleague from Lanark-Carleton for bringing it to the attention of the House.

[The Deputy Speaker]

There being no further members rising to speak on the matter, the time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has expired and the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

It being 6.35 p.m., the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m.

(The House adjourned at 6.35 p.m.)