House of Commons Hansard #219 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentencing.

Topics

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberal Saint-Léonard, QC

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I think as the Chair you have the right to keep order here, but the way you addressed the issue was as if you agreed and made your judgment but did not give a chance to the member to express himself on whether or not he made that statement. I think as a Speaker of this House you have to hear both sides before you make any judgments.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does any other member wish to speak to the point of order? The hon. House leader of the Reform Party on the point of order.

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9:20 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the hon. member who made the comments has returned. Mr. Speaker, you did say, if I understood correctly, that you thought it would be the decent thing for the member to come back and state his case.

I agree with the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Affairs that the hon. member for Hamilton West should be allowed to state whether or not he in fact used the word. He has been decent and has come back to the House. I would ask that he state whether he would withdraw the remarks he made to my hon. colleague from Wild Rose.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Speaker, I refer you to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms , citations 488, 489, 490 and 492. In none of them is the word bigot listed as a word that is unparliamentary.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I do not know about the member for Hamilton West, but I did call the member opposite a big bigot and I withdraw it as being unparliamentary.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I would thank the hon. member for Peterborough for the courtesy to other members in the House. Does anyone else wish to speak to the point of order? I will call on the member for Hamilton West one further time.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, one further time for what? I am not too clear on what you are asking.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Whether the member would be kind enough to withdraw the word bigot that was used earlier, I understand.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, in the interests I have of having a respect for this House-is Mr. Speaker paying attention?

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9:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

In the interests I have for the respect of this House and the respect I have for a colleague of this House, I will withdraw the term bigot on the member because I too was in a heated state with the member in debate.

But, Mr. Speaker, to ask for me to have the decency to come into the House, I had a lot of difficulty with your remark, Sir.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I thank the member for doing that.

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9:20 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

Thank you very much for your courtesy.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs on questions or comments.

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9:20 p.m.

Parkdale—High Park Ontario

Liberal

Jesse Flis LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I rise so that I can compliment the hon. member for Wild Rose who is a former educator like myself. He told the House what he would do if he saw a fight on the street regardless of the colour of the people, the religion, et cetera. I compliment him for it.

He like other speakers from the Reform Party complained that the only section the Liberals were addressing was section 718.2. The reason this side is addressing it is that-

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9:20 p.m.

Reform

Elwin Hermanson Reform Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to clarify whether the hon. member is on debate or on questions or comments.

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9:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member is on questions or comments.

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9:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jesse Flis Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, the reason we were hung up on section 718.2 is that it was all the Reform Party was addressing and we were trying to educate the Reform Party to the fact that it was not the only issue in the bill.

I draw the hon. member's attention to section 718. I had trouble with some sections but I welcomed section 718 when I looked at the purpose and the principles of the bill because I also have a constituency where a lot of crime has crept in. Section 718 states:

The fundamental purpose of sentencing is to contribute, along with crime prevention initiatives, to respect for the law and the maintenance of a just, peaceful and safe society by imposing just sanctions that have one or more of the following objectives:

(a) to denounce unlawful conduct;

Unfortunately there are some Canadians who stoop to unlawful conduct. It continues:

(b) to deter the offender and other persons from committing offences;

(c) to separate offenders from society, where necessary;

In question period the Reform Party has been pressing this point. Sections 718(e) and (f) are specifically important. They state:

(e) to provide reparations for harm done to victims or to the community;

The judges in the past have had no direction and now the bill is giving them direction. If there is damage done to a community, hopefully in the sentencing the judge will take that into consideration. The criminal might be able to help the community more by restoring the damage rather than by sitting for two or five years behind bars.

They continue:

(f) to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders, and acknowledgement of the harm done to victims and to the community.

There is an organization called Parkdale Focus Community Watch in my constituency. That is exactly what it is focusing on. It wants to protect the safety of the streets and the homes of the community.

Would the hon. member agree with what is stated in the purpose and principles in section 718?

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9:25 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I too sat on the justice committee for a number of hours going through the bill. Like I said, there are a number of things which I really liked about it. There are some things in section 718 that I appreciate about the bill. I think there was some good intent.

What I cannot understand is why we had to have an all-inclusive list. When we start making a list regarding hate we are going to leave somebody off of it. I do not see how we can help that. At the same time we did research on this and my hon. colleague provided statistics which said that homosexuals were third on the list of groups being targeted. The first was racism and I forget what the second one was. There are statistics showing that the courts today are dealing very effectively with those issues.

The Minister of Justice has received a letter from the police commissions indicating that is the case. They objected to the entire section 718.2 based on the fact that they have been doing this for years, have built case law and have plenty of literature. They were very effectively doing the job.

If they are doing it effectively, why does the minister not listen to the police commissions as he did on the gun bill and take that section out? I have to assume it is because of the inclusion of sexual orientation. I cannot figure any reason why they would include that if it is not to extend it much more. It bothers me when we get into legalizing adoption and spousal benefits. That is what bothers Canadians.

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9:25 p.m.

Nunatsiaq Northwest Territories

Liberal

Jack Iyerak Anawak LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, I have one very simple question for the hon. member for Wild Rose. If a crime such as murder is committed against a person who is a homosexual, or a person is discriminated against because of their homosexuality, does the member condone that?

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9:30 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

No, Mr. Speaker, I do not condone that. I thought I had made that perfectly clear. I do not believe that any human being in Canada should be treated in that fashion regardless of anything. I object when people say that a particular crime affected more people than another one.

We have a number of crimes before the court right now. I am thinking of the Mahaffy family and the Fisher family which affected the entire nation, affected every province. Every human being in this country who knows has been affected.

Whether people over there like to believe it or not, any time that happens to any human being, regardless of anything, it affects me. I do not want it to happen in Canada. I do not want my grandchildren to live with that threat. I am here because I want laws that will address those problems. It is not going to be done with Bill C-41 regardless of what the clown from Kingston tries to tell us.

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9:30 p.m.

Reform

Philip Mayfield Reform Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak to Bill C-41, an act to amend the Criminal Code with regard to sentencing and other acts in consequence thereof.

There are a number of positive aspects of this bill that I personally find encouraging. For example, it is good to see that victim impact statements will be allowed as testimony, though Reform members have voiced concerns over the decision that only written testimonies will be accepted.

One of the principle concerns I hold though lies in this bill's further entrenching of the divisions between Canadians as outlined in section 718.2. This entrenching does nothing to pull Canadians together and reinforce the principles of fundamental justice. If anything, it stigmatizes Canadians, classifies Canadians, divides Canadians and raises suspicions between Canadians.

In the last century, one of the most controversial thinkers ever proposed a radical view of history and society. Whether or not one agrees with these views and opinions, most people will agree that Karl Marx was one of the great philosophers of his age. The theories he put forward on society's changes and conflicts rested on one basic foundation, that our society is divided into identifiable groups. Changes came in Marx's model when groups polarized and fought against each other, landowners versus peasants, the proletariat versus the bourgeoisie, or the capitalists versus the communists. These groups would clash and fight and in the end, society would undergo dramatic changes, he proposed.

Most Canadians today rightly refuse to have anything to do with Marx's principles of division and conflict. The people of this country want Canada to be a land of opportunity where anyone, rich or poor, man or woman, can reach for their dreams and strive for whatever goals their hearts desire. We strive for a country free of racism and discrimination so that when we look at each other we see nothing but fellow Canadians. Ironically, it is our governments, not the Canadian people, which are striving to retrench and reinforce these very divisions that Canadians are trying to erase.

It was in 1982 that the government of Pierre Trudeau brought forward its controversial charter of rights and freedoms. This charter did not simply declare all individuals as equal under and before the law, it outlined the specific grounds under which people could not be discriminated. In other words, it spelled out the specific grounds under which Canadians could be considered equal or unequal.

In section 15(2), much to the surprise of many Canadians, the charter gives our governments the power and the authority to discriminate. This charter by its language and intentions purposely divided Canadians into identifiable groups both before the courts and before their fellow Canadians.

Since the passage of the charter, Canadians from coast to coast have fought against the entrenchment of these divisions in the quest to simply become Canadians above all else, not hyphenated Canadians, not divided Canadians. For example, Statistics Canada became extremely frustrated during the last census because many Canadians refused to identify their ethnic origin. They saw themselves only as Canadians and told StatsCan this by writing "Canadian" on the form.

The message they were sending is: "We are Canadians, not members of some identifiable group". Despite this opposition StatsCan is continuing to compile these figures. Without a doubt even more questions on ethnic origins will be asked in future censuses.

It is odd that my colleague from Calgary Centre presented a petition just last Monday calling on Statistics Canada to consider adding Canadian to its list of backgrounds and ethnicities. There is a message here. Canadians are tired of the divisions, tired of the classifications. They are seeking parity. They want equality.

This brings me to Bill C-41 and the amendments to the Criminal Code under debate today. A great deal of debate has surrounded section 718.2 of the bill. No doubt each member of the House has received numerous letters asking that we, as members of Parliament, vote against this entire bill because of the section and particularly because of the inclusion of the words sexual orientation.

Last week my counterpart from Port Moody-Coquitlam tried to give the justice minister over 10,000 letters from Canadians who oppose this inclusion. As well, over 70,000 Canadians have signed their names to over 600 petitions against this aspect of the bill. Reports have placed the number of letters to the minister opposing section 718.2 at over 70,000.

The reasons for opposing this section are wide ranging. For some the reasons are based on their religious beliefs or ethical convictions. For others the opposition stems from legal concerns. For me the key concern is that this section once again enhances the notion that there are no real Canadians in this country, just identifiable groups that happen to share a plot of land on the northern part of the continent.

I agree with the basic principle of this section, that those committing a violent act based on hatred or bias should be more severely punished. In Canada, after all, we oppose all forms of violence. We look south of the border and we are shocked at the rampant crime and brutality in many United States cities. Is it not ironic that the capital of the United States of America, Washington, D.C., also has the highest homicide rate in North America? It is a tragedy none of us want to see repeated north of the 49th parallel.

More important though we are a people who from day one of our existence have opposed discrimination. Even before Confederation we willingly became the final stop along the underground railroad. We provided new homes and new opportunities to hundreds of American slaves who wanted nothing more than a taste of freedom. Since then we have welcomed people from every corner of the globe to taste and savour that same freedom enjoyed so many years ago. Many have come not only for our freedom but also to contribute to our society.

My constituents oppose and I oppose how the government is setting aside these principles and using the bill to further entrench these legislated divisions. The bill outlines to Canadians what discrimination is from the federal government's point of view. Included in the list are a person's race, national origin or ethnic origin, someone's language, an individual's colour, sex or age, a person's mental or physical disability, someone's sexual orientation or finally some other similar factor.

As I noted earlier a great deal of debate has surrounded the inclusion of the term sexual orientation. As the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association and the Quebec Bar Association have noted, the lack of a definition of this term could open the door to the legal acceptance of such practices as pedophelia. These groups, I would like to add, are seeking a clear definition limiting the term sexual orientation to heterosexuality, homosexuality or bisexuality. It is a concern that has not been directly addressed by the government.

I find it ironic that the government refuses to define the term sexual orientation yet insists on defining and limiting the term discrimination. Some characteristics it would appear are more worthy of protection than others. Those singled out for attack based on some characteristic outside of these grounds have no assurance that they will be protected by the full force of the law.

For example, would this section apply to the Canadian counterpart to the so-called unibomber, an individual well known throughout the United States for attacking academics with letter bombs? Would it apply in the case of people singled out for attack because of their size or lack of strength, their accent or any number of characteristics in this legal and legislative grey area? The fact is we do not know.

I am encouraged that a number of members in this Chamber have seen this shortfall. Proposals have been brought forward to simplify this section and make additional measures apply to any instance where bias, prejudice or hate are involved. Sadly though, it appears that the justice minister is fully committed to appeasing the special interests and keeping his list of characteristics in place.

To conclude, Canadians for many years have been trying to move beyond government defined categories in the hope of becoming one people. This bill defies this vision and tries to further entrench these categories to appease special interests.

Canadians have clearly spoken out against these categories and want equal protection under the law. It is my intention therefore to oppose this bill when it comes up for final vote and I encourage other hon. members to do the same.

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9:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to comment about what has been said in this debate tonight. I want to compare that with a debate and question and answer session I had which I found extremely informative in two ways. It occurred in my riding and it concerned this bill. It occurred on a Sunday afternoon from four o'clock until around six o'clock at the London Salvation Army Citadel. It was about section 718.2.

What was so interesting was all the misinformation that came into that room that day with those people who came to have a fellowship and information session. They were very concerned about the moral fibre and changing laws in Canada.

The minister of that congregation came to see me in my constituency office. He was very concerned. He said: "I think I cannot go to my pulpit any more and preach what I want to preach in my church and this disturbs me". I asked whether his sermon was a criminal offence to which he replied: "Of course not". I told him not to be concerned because there is no offence created in this bill.

When I asked him what else concerned him, he said: " There is a slippery slope. If you do this we are going to end up over here and all of my beliefs I feel very strongly about will be gone". I said: "If that concerns you and if it concerns other constituents why don't I come to you in your forum?"

That is what I did. We walked through this section step by step telling them what the bill said, outlining the abuses of positions of trust in this section that we are concerned about and the crimes that are going on in our communities across this country. It was a long discussion. I went through the section as it stood before the amendments which in my opinion have actually added to it and have made it even a better section. At the end of the day they were very satisfied that their concerns were addressed.

I have offered that to other churches in my community. They have not accepted my invitation to go to them and explain this section. That concerns me. I think a lot of people think this section does something that it does not do.

I want to comment on one other thing. When I practised law, part of my job was with the psychiatric Criminal Code review board in Ontario. In that part time position on many occasions I had to deal with situations where pedophiles were involved. I want to say very clearly it is my honest belief that pedophilia is not covered in this bill at all. I have had to deal with pedophiles. I have been there.

This is not a bill that sanctions pedophilia. Pedophilia is a crime in Canada, as I explained to the Salvation Army people that day in the church. Pedophilia is actually a mental disorder under DMS-IV. It was III when I was doing that type of work. Heterosexuals often commit the crime of pedophilia. It is more prevalent with heterosexuals.

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9:45 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

How do you know that?

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9:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Because the psychiatric evidence tells us that. Because it is common psychiatric evidence.

Mr. Speaker, I will speak through you because it is difficult to educate some members on the other side. It is not so difficult to go to people when they are concerned about the real issue of this bill and explain to them in a calm manner when the decibel levels are not so high and say: "This is what is really happening. We have a Criminal Code statute. We are not addressing morality in this bill".

It is easy to joke. I came here as a lawyer to become a politician. I guess in some people's books I have two strikes against me. I do not know what the third one is. Maybe it is becoming a Reformer.

I think my comments have probably used up five minutes. There is no question to the member of the third party.