Debates of Sept. 19th, 1995

Quebec Referendum

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are asking for volume and cheering and we are still not there.

On September 12 the federal Unity Minister said: "Quebecers have the right to express themselves about the future of Quebec in Canada. We are a democratic country, so we will respect the vote". On the same day Daniel Johnson, the leader of the no forces in Quebec, when asked if he would accept a 50 plus 1 yes vote, said: "Yes, everyone will have to live with the result".

The federal unity minister and the leader of the no forces in Quebec have endeavoured to be clearer on the meaning of yes than the Prime Minister.

For the sake of national unity, we are not disagreeing about the goals, for the sake of making the issue crystal clear, will the Prime Minister get on side with the unity minister and with the leader of the no forces in Quebec by saying he agrees with them on the meaning of a yes vote?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is very sad to see the leader of the Reform Party asking exactly the same questions as the Bloc Quebecois.

I have said all along the minister replied very clearly yesterday that we want a clear question on separation. This is not a clear question on separation. It is a confusing question which we are denouncing. When I hear that confusing question from the leader of the Reform Party, saying that with one vote he will let Canada go, it is a very sad day for the people of western Canada.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Labour, responsible for the No side.

Yesterday in this House, the Minister of Labour tried to justify her about-face with respect to the referendum results by claiming that the question was ambiguous.

On September 12, when she said she would respect the decision of Quebecers in the referendum, would the Minister of Labour agree that at the time she already knew what the referendum question was and had known for several days?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Rimouski-Témiscouata certainly did not pay attention to the statements I made in my own riding. I was in the Lower St. Lawrence the day after the question was tabled in the Quebec National Assembly, and I said then that we were dealing with a question that was ambiguous, and I still say so today. And that is why the "No" coalition will work very hard during this referendum campaign to make the stakes clear to Quebecers, and the stakes are the separation of Quebec.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Labour agree that it was intellectual dishonesty on her part to refuse to admit that a reprimand from the Prime Minister caused her to change her position on the results of the referendum?

[The Speaker]

My dear colleagues, today we have used the words "intellectual honesty".

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The very words of the Prime Minister.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. Now we are saying "intellectual dishonesty". I would ask hon. members to be very careful in their choice of words. These are very important matters, and I realize

that, but I would ask all members to please be very judicious about the kind of language they use.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder who is obsessed with hiding the facts. They want to hide what is basically at stake in this referendum, the separation of Quebec. They want to hide the consequences of this referendum, should the outcome be Yes, the economic consequences first of all, and the political and legal consequences.

As well, they are trying to hide studies that would be unfavourable to the option of the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois. Who is acting democratically in this country?

[English]

The Economy

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government claims to be champing at the bit to deal with other issues in Parliament and Canadian taxpayers from coast to coast are concerned about their economic security regardless of the outcome of the Quebec referendum.

Can the Minister of Finance give us a precise date for his fall financial statement and will that statement include a target date for elimination of the federal deficit?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, taking the questions in the reverse order, we will proceed as we have stated to operate on the basis of rolling two year targets so that in the course of the next budget we will obviously be setting a target for the year after 1996-97.

It will be a pleasure at that time to be establishing that target since it will be the fourth year in a row the government will have hit its deficit target.

We intend to proceed in terms of the fall update exactly as we did last year. At a certain point following the beginning of the consultation process when it is important to make that appearance after there has been enough consultation so that the government reacts I would be delighted to appear.

There is one major distinction between this year and last. It was very important last year to very clearly establish the direction the government was taking. That direction has now turned out to be very successful. What I will be doing this year is confirming that direction.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we had all summer to deal with this issue and I am surprised we are back here without a set date for an economic and financial statement.

My supplementary is for the same minister. Among the eleven governments in Canada, the PQ government and the federal government are the only ones without a commitment to deliver a balanced budget. Why has the Minister of Finance pursued the fiscal policy of the separatist government by avoiding a commitment to a deadline for a balanced budget?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the member has no shame. His allies are laughing.

We have made it very clear that the way the previous government operated, the government for which the hon. member once worked, which never once met its deficit targets-that is to say to simply set five year targets, long term targets out of the way after an election was held and never meet them-was not the way to go.

As far as we are concerned what this country wants is credibility in government. We have provided it by establishing clear targets and hitting them and we will continue to do that.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, whereas the official opposition has done nothing else for the past two years, the Prime Minister only yesterday discovered a sudden desire to address real problems: job creation, economic growth, public finances. His finance minister does not share that interest, however, since he will not be taking part in the work of the finance committee leading up to the pre-budget consultation before the Quebec referendum is held.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. How does the Minister of Finance explain his decision not to personally initiate the pre-budget consultations starting up today, but to wait until November to appear before the finance committee?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, it is nothing but a coincidence that the Reform Party and the Leader of the Opposition asked exactly the same questions on national unity, but now that they ask the same questions on the finances of the country I wonder why we need the two parties. Perhaps one would do or maybe one research branch between the two would do.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

At any rate, Mr. Speaker, I will give you the answer. It is our intention to follow exactly the same timetable as last year. In other words, I went before the Finance Committee around October 17, or after the financial statements had been tabled. They are not yet ready for last year. Presentations were made to the Finance Committee by four or five other groups. I certainly intend to go before the Committee, once I am able to make worthwhile interest and growth rate projections. I want the submission by the Minister of Finance to be worthwhile for the members. And I shall make it when the time is right.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if a prebudget consultation process is initiated, the minister should be present to provide guidance. Last year, he gave direction to prebudget consultations. So, why is his office now telling us that he will be available from November 1 to 4 only? Is it because he has things to hide from the people of Quebec, who are about to make a decision regarding their future? Is he trying to hide his incompetence, seeing that there has been no net job creation since November 1994 and that economic growth is stalled?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the reason why I testified slightly ahead of schedule last year, on October 17, was to clearly set out the government's economic policy. This year, as I said, we intend to confirm this.

Now, I must say that I am quite pleased to see that the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe is looking to me for guidance. I was under the impression that he always took his orders from-

Health

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, October 15 is the deadline this government has given to the provinces on the issue of semiprivate medical clinics. Does the Prime Minister know this edict will affect not only Alberta but high quality health care and choice in Ontario as well as Quebec?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the federal Minister of Health as we speak is meeting to follow up on the suggestion of all provinces, with the exception of Alberta, who agreed at a September 1994 meeting "to take whatever steps are required to regulate the development of private clinics in Canada".

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, some examples of those clinics, Médiclub in Montreal and IVF Canada in Toronto, would be gone as we know them. Does the Prime Minister feel so passionate about outdated legislation that he is willing to withdraw funds and decrease choice to Canadians coast to coast on quality health care?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is the Canadian one tier health care system costs 25 per cent less than the American system. It has full coverage whereas in the United States, the king of private clinics, they pay 25 per cent more and they leave 30 million Americans without a penny of coverage.

Social Programs

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Yesterday, the Prime Minister stated in this House that his only priority was to deal with the real problems. How does the Prime Minister explain then the fact that his government has postponed until after the referendum every major reform affecting ordinary people, seniors, families, the unemployed and the poor? Is this what dealing with the real problems means?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the contrary is quite the case.

If the hon. member had been more actively looking at the initiatives being taken over the past several months, she would know that we have been able to very successfully introduce a new program to aid students. Under this initiative 300,000 students will now have a new program of loans and grants for the first time, including new grants for those in the province of Quebec.

We have a new program where close to 25,000 young people will now be enrolled through various private sector initiatives in a series of apprenticeship programs. This will give them a real chance to move from school to work.

We have introduced a brand new system of delivery across the country. We will now be able to tell senior citizens that their applications for pensions can be processed in half a day rather than eight days and that they can get coverage in close to 700 centres.

If the hon. member had been more active in looking at the real things going on in the country rather than campaigning for separatism, she would have seen that we are in fact improving the lot of Canadians.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we did look carefully. We saw that Quebec is number one in the poverty sector and that nothing serious was done about that.

Will the Prime Minister admit that he decided to postpone the announced reforms because he wants to save the bad news for Quebecers until after the referendum?