Debates of Sept. 21st, 1995

Corrections And Conditional Release Act

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

I wish I had an hour.

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I was watching the debate on television outside the Chamber and heard the member who just spoke use unparliamentary language. I would like to draw it to your attention and to his and request that you ask him to withdraw the comments he made and refrain in future from using that kind of language in the House.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. member. Perhaps we should all remind ourselves that there are certain words that are unparliamentary. We all know which ones they are. There is a fairly short list now.

The first test is that the language does not cause an uproar. I did hear the expression the member referred to and I noticed that there was no uproar caused by the expression. Frankly, I was surprised by that. I would ask all members that since we are starting afresh this fall to please, if they hear something offensive, get up and put the objection on the floor immediately rather than waiting.

I am sure the hon. member will take note of what has been said. I would ask then if we are ready for the question.

The member is entitled to reply.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to know what I said that was offensive.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It is a phrase we have all heard many times involving a word that begins with h and ends with l . I do not think the Chair should string this thing out.

Is the parliamentary secretary to the solicitor general rising on a point of order or on debate?

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is on a point of order and it could very well lead to a debate.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am afraid the hon. parliamentary secretary has to choose. If it is on debate, it is the turn of the Liberal Party and the hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we are discussing the last motion raised by the opposition, Motion No. 19.

We heard a number of things here this morning and indeed most of yesterday afternoon about Canadians having a constant worry about the apparent rise in criminality in the country. I think we should keep in mind that criminality in Canada has been somewhat stable for the past 20 years. The statistics are there. There have indeed been a number of cases that were brought to the attention of the public and many of those were indeed heinous crimes and very disturbing. That is why the government and we on this side of the House have done considerable work to try to reduce criminality and make Canada a safer place.

I found it interesting when I heard a number of members claim that the federal government is not putting any money whatsoever into trying to protect Canadians and especially our youth. I would like to point out that the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada is one of the few departments that has seen a slight increase in its expenditures.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, a while ago we were talking about the finances. Now we are on Motion No. 19 dealing with parole. I would like the member to stick to the subject.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All hon. members will understand the relevance rule. It is even more important since we are discussing motions and perhaps second reading. I am sure the hon. parliamentary secretary will make his remarks relevant very quickly.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we have heard from the opposition on Motion No. 19, on Motion No. 16, and on all the other motions. I think we have been patient enough on this side of the House by giving these people the chance to express themselves. What we have heard all day is a well-founded concern about the safety of Canadians. However, after hearing a number of those debates it is my opinion and that of most members of the House that often the information that was introduced by the opposition was not entirely correct.

We have the obligation to explain to these people, as it concerns Motion No. 19, that we have done a number of things to make Canada a safer place. I will make this point very briefly. I think that members sitting on the opposition benches should know that money has been put into the system. We are out there protecting Canadians. We are now spending considerable amounts of money building new facilities. That was a concern raised by the opposition. Five new facilities are going to open in the short term here in Canada in order to accommodate the incarcerated members of our society.

There was also talk about CPIC, the screening mechanism we now have in place. We should also inform the hon. members of the opposition that they have the right through various service and volunteer associations, for instance the brownies, the scouts, minor hockey and what not, to screen volunteers in these organizations for a previous criminal record to avoid endangering the lives of many young innocent Canadians. We have instituted that. It is a tangible benefit from the Liberal government. We are concerned about the safety of the younger members of our society.

We also spoke about gun control. If opposition members are concerned about the rise in criminality, why did they oppose gun control? That is a fundamental issue. Most crimes committed in Canada are committed with guns and rifles. Often these weapons are acquired illegally. We are trying to make Canada a safer place, and this is all we have heard all day. The opposition benches are supposed to be the law and order side of government, but we have done the tangible thing. We have done the right thing. We pushed

through the gun control law because it was the will and the wish of the Canadian public, as numerous polls have suggested.

I could continue. We have made amendments to the Criminal Code to tighten up the intoxication defence. We were referring to cases where someone was under the influence of certain drugs and alcohol and had committed a crime. That will no longer be admissible in court. That is very tangible. I think the ministry and the Government of Canada should be applauded for their efforts.

We have set up the task force on high risk, violent offenders. We are reviewing that with our provincial and territorial counterparts. We have experts in the field looking into this. Of course more can be done, but we do have the commitment of the government. We have the commitment of the Solicitor General and the Minister of Justice to do something about it.

There was also Bill C-37. They made no mention of it. We have tightened up the Young Offenders Act. We are making it more difficult for youngsters to come out. We are imposing different rules and regulations in order to make Canada a safer place. The public should know that. The public has a right to know what we are doing, instead of going on with these debates and these unfounded arguments, which are not based on fact. Factually, I think we have done a commendable job.

We have also created a national crime prevention council. The Government of Canada, after two years, with its so-called liberal values as members opposite like to call them, has proven to the Canadian public that it is taking these concerns very seriously.

Another one is the DNA legislation.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Yes.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Exactly. I am happy to see that the hon. member for Wild Rose is approving our initiative. We are trying to do what was never done in the past. The previous government did not measure up and that is why it was soundly defeated.

We on the government side after two years in the House are starting to show Canadians we are taking very seriously these concerns. That is why I have a duty as a parliamentarian and we have a duty as a government to explain this to the public, to explain this to, I must admit, the misinformed and ill-informed members of the opposition.

Another private member's bill came to our attention, the witness protection program. Again we are trying to encourage Canadians who in some cases are in difficult situations and we are asking for their help in trying to find the criminal elements in Canada and to bring them out to public view in order to try them in a court of law.

What we have done over the past two years is quite commendable. There are a number of instances where we can do more no doubt. The various accomplishments of our most competent Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General of Canada prove once again the the Liberal government is taking Canadians' concerns very seriously.

This is all within the purview of Motion No. 19. Why we are opposing the hon. member's motion is that in our opinion, and given these recent accomplishments by the Government of Canada, there is sufficient inquiry powers under the Inquiries Act and Corrections and Condition Release Act to address instances where a conditionally released offender commits a serious crime. The disciplinary inquiry should not be misused for that purpose.

In all fairness to the government, in all fairness to the people of Canada we are very concerned about their security. I regret to say the opposition benches have not been paying much attention to our accomplishments. That is why in Reform country and in other parts of Canada we are trying to reassure Canadians we are taking their concerns in a most serious sense.

I am very pleased the hon. member for Wild Rose has invited me once again to his wonderful riding. I have never had the privilege of going to that part of Alberta. It is one of the most beautiful provinces in Canada, especially with the Rockies. During the referendum debate this is an issue we would like to bring up.

However, we will not support this opposition motion and I would gladly like to debate this a little further with the hon. member for Wild Rose in his constituency.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, quite a bit was said by my colleague from Fraser Valley in terms of giving examples of why Motion No. 19 is on the floor, why we want this review in place when there has obviously been something that did not go right. Simply asking for a review makes sense.

If we parole a killer and he kills somebody again, it is only common sense that we look at the results that brought us to that decision. How many times do we have to say that? It is called accountability. It is time all of us became accountable for that for which we are responsible.

We have the charter of rights and freedoms. We really need a charter of responsibilities. It should apply to everyone, including members of parole boards.

I believe in this past year there have been some improvements. One improvement was the firing of the previous chairman of the parole board and the hiring of the new one. I compliment the present chairman. I have had many visits with the present chairman. He wants to ensure to the best of his ability that the most competent people, the most able, the most knowledgeable are placed in those positions.

The biggest fear I have for him is that patronage goes on and on, another patronage appointment. I read not too long ago that 11 people were put on the queen's bench across the provinces; failed Liberal candidates, party hacks and fundraisers to fill the benches across the land. Mr. justice minister and his 11 disciples are now in place.

Making patronage appointments is not the way to fill these positions. The present chairman of the board wants competent people. He is very knowledgeable. If we allow him the authority to run it the way he feels appropriate it will be better. Nevertheless, regardless of whether they are judges or whatever else, everybody has to be responsible for what they are expected to do.

Mr. Speaker, being from Edmonton you will remember Daniel Gingras. Good old Daniel Gingras, the guy who was awarded a birthday pass. Remember how it blew everybody's mind that this killer, this dangerous offender, could be awarded a birthday pass. He had been in for a long time and the parole board decided he should have a birthday pass. Not only that, it allowed him to pick the guard to go with him because it was supposed to be a supervised day.

I do not have to say he sized the guard up. He did not pick the most powerful, biggest one he could find. He picked the one he thought he could overcome, and he did. How many women died that day, two or three? And nobody is accountable.

Surely with something like that it would make sense to review the whole thing to make sure it never happens again, which is all this motion is asking for. It will not create a huge expense. It will not do anything except accomplish one thing, an effort to make sure we are accountable to the people of Canada when we are drawing money from them and filling our pockets with paycheques. If we are being paid by the people we should be accountable to them. This motion will allow that.

Once again it blows my mind how anybody can oppose such a common sense motion. I heard rhetoric a few minutes ago by the parliamentary secretary about all of the wonderful things this genius of a justice minister has done. He has not done anything. There has been nothing accomplished. Wait, he fixed the Young Offenders Act. No he did not. Wait, let us talk about guns, remember? He has fixed that. He has gone after duck hunters, deer hunters and rabbit shooters. Give me a break.

I forgot about Bill C-41. Now we have done it. We will get tough on those who commit crime based on hate. We will let them have it. However, if we ask them to get tough on all crime they say that is not the Liberal way. They talk out of four sides of their mouths. Sometimes I do not know what they do want.

I have one last appeal. It is time people who are paid by Canadians are held accountable for the decisions and the jobs they do. This motion would help that happen.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House read for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on Motion. No. 19. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion stands deferred according to the standing orders.

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred divisions.

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung: