Debates of Nov. 22nd, 1996

Canada Elections Act

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

No, I will not. I am not like that.

So I implore the government to take the time needed to determine the reasonable period that should be allowed all parliamentarians, including government members, to really examine in depth bills which have an impact on the lives of all Canadians, of all Quebecers.

[The Deputy Speaker]

There are two members rising. Normally we wait until all the people moving the motions have given their reasons and then someone from the government side gives their reasons why they can or cannot accept the motion.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address Bill C-63, whose title, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act, tells us parliamentarians about its importance.

You will understand that I cannot discuss the amendments proposed by my party without first congratulating and thanking the hon. member for Bellechasse, for his excellent work regarding this measure.

I am convinced that you share my conviction, as does I am sure the President of the Treasury Board, that this Parliament would be a better institution if it had more members like my colleague for Bellechasse, who believes in the value of words and is well aware that, in a democracy, the best way to oppose an idea is to come up with a better one.

This is why the hon. member for Bellechasse reminded us of certain things. I was told that the President of the Treasury Board received a classical education. We will get back to this, since it has a direct connection with the bill and the motions. You will agree with me that, when we discuss issues relating to electoral democracy, haste is often the enemy of common sense.

It is truly sad that, on an issue such as this one, which deals with the quality of representation, of democracy and of our debates, the government did not ask opposition parties to get much more involved.

We are all mature enough, regardless of the party to which we belong, to know that, when it comes to such issues, it is preferable to seek a consensus. The hon. member for Bellechasse and the President of the Treasury Board are both cultivated individuals. The hon. member for Bellechasse quoted Boileau and reminded us that we had to keep working to improve the bill.

To illustrate the importance of the motions, I too wish to quote Boileau and dedicate the following proverb to the President of the Treasury Board: "There are those whose dull minds forever languish under a cloud, blind to the light of reason. What is well understood can be clearly expressed; the words just flow naturally".

The reason I am quoting Boileau, an author oft quoted in the classical colleges attended by the President of the Treasury Board, who is now in his fifties, is because it is important-

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am sorry to interrupt my colleague in the debate.

Mr. Speaker, in recognizing my colleague you referred to a standing order. Perhaps you could suggest to us what standing order it is that you feel would make it inappropriate for us to speak. I believe that my colleague the chief opposition whip spoke and then my colleague from Calgary also spoke. I thought it would be appropriate in terms of the normal rules to allow the government to speak at least at that point.

I am respectful of the Chair and I would appreciate it if you would point out to us the standing order to which you were referring.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the clarification you will bring into that matter, could you, by the same token, explain to the hon. member for Fundy-Royal why a substantial motion cannot be moved on a point of order?

[The Deputy Speaker]

I will explain it as I attempted to do before.

It seems logical, to me at least as the Chair, to have all the people proposing motions to rise and say why they favour their motions. At the end of that process, whether there is one, two, three or four, it really does not matter, then a government member would rise to

say why they either agree with or, more likely, oppose an amendment. That makes some sense, rather than going back and forth across the aisle as we normally do in debate.

I think I discussed this earlier with members on the government side.

[Bob Kilger, Liberal, Stormont—Dundas, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. I believe that I was involved in some of those discussions.

Keeping in mind what the Chair has put forward, in terms of members who have brought motions forward, in this case in Group No. 2 they would stand in the name of the hon. member for Bellechasse and in the name of the hon. member for Calgary West.

I would add that the member for Laval Centre, who at this time and in this particular group has no motions standing in her name, participated in the debate. I believe, with every entitlement, that the hon. member for Fundy-Royal should be given the opportunity to speak. I think that any government member should be given the opportunity by that criteria.

I understand that the member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, who is speaking now of course, does not have a motion in this group. I submit that possibly a large number of members on that side may want to speak and the government will not be silent on this important piece of legislation.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The Chair has no desire to prevent anyone from taking the floor. I think it is more logical to hear people in favour of the motion for 10 minutes. At the end of that period, members on the government side will be able to reply and even if 100 of them wish to speak, they will be allowed to do so.

[Bob Kilger, Liberal, Stormont—Dundas, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find, with the greatest of respect for yourself and the Chair, that sometimes things might be deemed to be practical and logical and that above all, the rules of the House must prevail which entitle members on either side to participate in the debate whenever they so choose and get the attention of the Chair, the eye of the Speaker.

While certainly I would understand fully that the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve would complete his remarks, I would hope that during the remainder of the debate we would be given the opportunity to participate fully.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will respect whatever decision you will take. But some members on this side of the House have taken positions. I see the hon. members for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis, Parry Sound-Muskoka and Scarborough-Rouge River and I do not know what they think.

Preventing alternation would be presuming that all the members on the government side will oppose our motions; it would also hamper the exchange of views that makes the debate progress and that builds the debate as we go on, because the points made by the hon. member for Fundy-Royal might convince my hon. colleague for Verchères, or myself or the hon. member for Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia that he was wrong when he supported his party's position.

We have here in this House a dynamic where you ask all members in favour to rise first and then those opposing, but this is the last stage, the vote. That is the time when we will be called, one by one, row by row, to do it.

I respectfully submit that during debate, the principle of alternation, without being applied as strictly as on second or third readings, should nevertheless apply.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know what your decision will be, but, should that be of any help to the Chair, we would agree with the suggestion of our colleague, the government whip, to allow the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve to complete his remarks. After that, we could alternate to allow for an exchange of views, as mentioned by my colleague from Bellechasse.

That would make for a better discussion, and prevent one side or the other from monopolizing the time of the House. As you suggested earlier, once we have expressed our views, the government side could have 25, 50 or even 100 speakers in a row, but I do not think this would be good for debate. May we suggest that the Chief Government Whip's proposal to alternate speakers be accepted.

[An hon. member]

Point of order.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I think I have heard enough. I have already heard from the member on this point. I do not think I need to hear from him again.

The point is a difficult and important one. The principle of alternates is a very important principle in the House. Possibly the best cure is to allow the mover and the seconder to speak and then to respect the question of alternates.

In this case, the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve supported one of the motions. The hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve may complete his remarks. After that, we will have to alternate.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thought we would never straighten this out, but I will continue. You are right to remind the House that

I support the motion. It may not look like it, but it does mean something when someone supports a motion in this House. When I rose earlier in the House it was as seconder of the motion.

What I mean is that we would like and we would have liked, as the hon. member for Bellechasse put it, to have plenty of time to consider the issue. It would have been terribly courteous, good practice and extremely respectful to invite opposition parties, both the Bloc Quebecois and the Reform Party, to take part in the drafting of this bill.

As the hon. member for Bellechasse reminded the House, that was done when the issue of redistribution of seats was addressed. Let us not forget that some people fought hard and lost their lives for the right to be heard in Parliament.

It is important to come to an agreement on the issues of democracy and representation. In our system we have a tool called the list of electors. Why do we have such a tool? Because we brag about having the cleanest, most transparent election practices of the whole world, which promote a strong democracy through representation. The voters' list is an extremely important tool.

We are convinced that the more complete it is, the more information it contains, the easier it will be to track down abusers. This is why we want to see on this voters' list the same thing we have in Quebec, which is identity information, like the age and sex of voters. This would be useful come election time, enabling support staff, the clerk, and representatives to ensure that persons-

I believe my time is up. I think I will be able to continue after question period.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being eleven o'clock, we will now proceed to Statements by Members.

Minden Dog Sled Derby

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to announce the 12th Annual Minden Dog Sled Derby on January 18 and 19, 1997. This is the largest dog sled race purse in North America. It will draw competitors from around the world to Haliburton County and the village of Minden. This is a unique weekend with fun events for the whole family.

I would like to congratulate Val and Steven Loughead, Stu Brandon, Jack Brezina and Sue Collings, the five planners responsible for the event, not to mention the leaders, volunteers, community sponsors and mushers who will make this race the best ever.

You only have to be a spectator, not a musher, to take part. Let Bill Payne welcome you to the main street of Minden for the excitement of seeing canine and human athletes compete for a piece of the $42,000 purse.

Father Alfred Couturier

[Bernard Deshaies, Bloc, Abitibi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in every community across Canada, groups and individuals work to alleviate the ill effects of alcohol and drugs. The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse created a merit medallion to underline the great achievements of these dedicated volunteers and professionals who work with drug abusers.

This merit medallion has just been awarded to Father Alfred Couturier, of the religious order of Trinitarians, from Amos, in Abitibi. This is a very good choice, since Father Couturier, affectionately known as Alfred, back home, is very well loved by the people of Abitibi and the Amos area. This truly dedicated man works unstintingly for so many causes that we sometimes feel that he is a volunteer for all organizations.

Today, in this House, I want to pay tribute to Father Couturier for the mission he has chosen to carry out among drug abusers and transients. I want to sincerely congratulate him for what he has done for them, for giving a new meaning to their lives. I thank him for his solidarity towards our community.

Department Of Fisheries And Oceans

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, while we all want to minimize environmental impact, common sense and rational approaches to development must prevail.

The Prime Minister and the government promised jobs, jobs, jobs, but constituents in Prince Rupert tell a different story. Small businesses in this community are deeply concerned and frustrated by the lack of co-operation the department of fisheries has shown with respect to waterfront development in this community.

I am told of many incidents where recalcitrant DFO bureaucrats are standing in the way of job creating developments in Prince Rupert. Last week I received a petition signed by a majority of Prince Rupert businessmen asking that DFO adopt a more reasonable posture.

On behalf of concerned citizens and businesses in Prince Rupert I call on the minister of fisheries to rein in his over zealous bureaucrats and encourage job creating small businesses in this

community and other Canadian costal communities to pursue rational waterfront development.

Healthy Harvestfest

[Rose-Marie Ur, Liberal, Lambton—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on September 21 the Southwest Middlesex Health Centre presented the Healthy Harvestfest at its facility on Mount Brydges, Ontario.

This event was a resounding success with more than 300 people throughout my riding of Lambton-Middlesex attending. A large number of participants, including the Heart and Stroke Foundation, the Middlesex Farm and Home Safety Council, the Onyot'a:ka Community Health Nurses, the Women's Rural Resource Centre, provided valuable information and exhibits to the public. A number of local businesses were kind enough to donate prizes and food for the event.

Founded in 1974 as a joint effort of the local communities and the University of Western Ontario, the health centre is a unique community minded facility offering a wide variety of family health care services in the community while serving as a training facility for medical school graduates in family medicine.

My congratulations to the entire staff of the Southwest Middlesex Health Centre for hosting this event which hopefully will be held annually.

Mining

[Marlene Cowling, Liberal, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on this occasion to speak about how the government's new minerals and metals policy will help Canada internationally.

The mining industry in Canada plays a vital role in the continued well-being of our economy. Nowhere is it more important than in many rural and remote communities that depend on it for their very survival. However, the continued success of this industry is heavily dependent on its ability to export what it produces.

Ensuring that our minerals and metals producers enjoy open access to foreign markets is a central objective of the new minerals and metals policy. Its principles will guide the government in its participation in international organizations like the World Trade Organization and in its efforts globally to protect all Canadians who are dependent on a prosperous industry for their livelihood.

As the world's leading exporter of minerals and metals, Canada must play a leadership role in the management of international issues affecting th industry. The new minerals and metals policy-

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to acknowledge Natural Resources Canada's commitment to sustainable development of Canada's mining industry.

In "Creating Opportunity" our government made a commitment to incorporate the principle of sustainable development into all of its activities. We are living up to that commitment.

The new minerals and metals policy is concrete evidence of this. The policy establishes a framework that integrates not only economic factors but environmental and social considerations in federal decisions about minerals and metals.

Earlier this week the natural resources committee tabled its unanimous report entitled "Streamlining Environmental Regulations for Mining" which provides specific prescriptions on how this policy can move forward.

By placing minerals and metals in a sustainable development context, the government's new policy ensures not only present but future generations of Canadians will reap the benefits that this important industry contributes to Canada.

National Patriots Day

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to celebrate National Patriots Day. By dedicating the Sunday closest to November 23 to the memory of those who fought for the fundamental values of freedom and democracy-as my colleague from Hochelaga-Maisonneuve mentioned a few moments ago-Quebecers want to pay tribute to the patriots who did everything they could to leave us a country we can call our own, a country that meets our aspirations.

Their contribution to the history of Quebec and Canada is unquestionable. In fact, on October 7, the Maison nationale des Patriotes, located in Saint-Denis-sur-Richelieu, received a prestigious award from Parks Canada. This house, which once belonged to merchant and patriot Jean-Baptiste Mâsse, has been converted into an interpretation centre. Visitors are reminded of the events that led to the patriots rebellion in 1837 and 1838, when those who were then called "Canadians" fought against the British colonial regime.

Since each brick and each stone of a building is essential to its construction, each action taken by these patriots must make us proud of these men and women-

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. The member for Ottawa Centre has the floor.

Transit Strike

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the national capital region is under the threat of a bus strike. Yesterday a federal mediator was called in for marathon talks between OC Transpo and its management.

There has been some progress. However, there is still much work to be done. As the deadline approaches it is our responsibility to ensure that a fair and equitable solution is found and a strike is averted.

I consider the public transportation system to be an essential service. I believe that we should look at measures where strikes and lockouts would not be necessary in this area and where in the future arbitrations become the norm.

The negotiations over the next three days are crucial. OC Transpo employees, taxpayers and people in the Ottawa-Carleton region look forward to a quick and fair settlement. My staff hopes to take the bus to work Monday morning.