House of Commons Hansard #112 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was harmonization.

Topics

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

I hope so.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

I have one minute. The member for Wild Rose hopes I am out of time. I can only tell the hon. member that I will be here making my point long after he too has joined the pantheon of Reformers leaving this House.

In closing let me say something about books because I have to correct what the hon. member for Wild Rose said. Books will not be more expensive in the province of Nova Scotia. Indeed some books purchased by public libraries, schools, universities, public colleges, municipalities, qualifying charities and non-profit organizations, most particularly those dealing with the literacy problem, will receive a 100 per cent GST rebate. That comes about because the Minister of Finance listened to the Liberal backbench that went to him and told him how important it was to have this movement and this rebate on the GST on books.

We in the backbench of the Liberal Party are proud of what we did. We are proud of the HST. It is good for Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to say so.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Halifax for her intervention on this issue. I am glad to hear somebody from Nova Scotia get up and talk about it and defend it, defend it to the degree and with the passion that she has.

Let me clarify a few things she said in her comments. In no way during my speech was I trying to lecture to Nova Scotians and to tell them what was right for them or what was better for them. In no way was I giving a lecture. I was criticizing the method with which this government is implementing a harmonized sales tax. I was criticizing the government in its implementation.

It is not a question of knowing better. I am not saying I know any better. I am here to give some suggestions and some ideas and that is all I have been trying to do. Doing what is right is important. In the Standing Committee on Finance when we looked at replacements for the GST there were a lot of alternatives looked at. The Liberal government had a lot of options and a lot of choices. It hung its hat on replacing the GST with a harmonized sales tax but it did it piecemeal. It is doing it ad hoc. It is doing it at a high cost.

Let me point out to the hon. member where the high cost is. First of all, to reduce the combined current rate in those three provinces of 19 per cent down to 15 per cent. Obviously it is a loss of revenue to them. Call it a transfer payment. Let us not get into partisan politics for a minute. Let us call it a transition cost from one regime to another of $1 billion. That is $1 billion of expense that need not happen if they would have taken the full report and looked at the Reform recommendations in the minority report.

Reform said it would not solve the problems because this is just entrenching the GST. The Liberal Party wants to replace the GST. In other words, get a system of taxation that is revenue neutral that is not this confusing, complicated, bureaucratic, red tape system of taxation.

Reform said if it were going to do it and look at it, look at an integrated system with those provinces that have provincial sales tax. Given that it wanted to look at it, here are some recommendations Reform has. Make it integrated. Make it the broadest possible base, the widest base. Let us tax everything, groceries, prescription drugs. Tax everything. That way there would be the lowest rate and we would not have this billion dollar cost to make up for lost revenues in certain provinces.

Second, for those low income people who are affected, we currently have a system of rebate and this national integrated sales tax could then adjust to the fact that certain people who are the lower income level would get a bigger rebate than they currently get and we have taken care of those in society we have an obligation to take care of.

These were legitimate recommendations. The reason I am so vehemently opposed to the current botched up mess the government has is that it is not doing it right. It is being done wrong. It is not getting all the provinces to agree. The Liberals quote Mike Harris of Ontario. Mike Harris would love to co-operate if everybody else across the country were coming into the deal at the same time, on a level playing field. Okay, so we would have to compensate, but the finance minister did not do that.

I just want to clarify for the member for Halifax and give her enough time to respond that it was never my intention to lecture. It was never my intention to stand here and say that I know better. If the Liberals would just read that full minority report, we did make some recommendations which the government has not listened to. It is being done piecemeal and that is not right. Let us do it right.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I accept the hon. member's comments that he was not lecturing. However, I do not accept some of the things he said. Let me just make a few points in the very short time I have.

First, hanging our hat on a specific program is what government is about. In government we do not have the luxury to gadfly around a pick one policy one day and another policy the next. We pick a policy that we feel is good for our constituents and we go with it. That is what has happened here.

Again, the premiers of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland realized this was a good policy and they decided to go with. If other provinces have not picked up on it, I can only say that they do not understand the situation as fully as they should.

With regard to what the hon. member said about increasing the GST rebate to the individuals, I think that betrays to some extent two things. First, that the hon. member does not quite understand what the transitional funding is. But more particularly, it betrays the fact that there are chasmic differences between the Reform Party and the Liberal Party because in the Liberal Party we do not necessarily think that the best way to deal with funding to assist a province is to put it directly in the hands of the consumer in all ways. There may be moneys that are better administered through the provincial government. In this case, this is what we have done and what we support.

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4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Gilbert Fillion Bloc Chicoutimi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have just listened to two members from across the way who have told us about all sorts of things that do not, or will not, exist with respect to this bill.

I will naturally take a moment to try to place the effects of Bill C-70 in perspective. Everything we have heard during the last two speeches has been nonsense. Things must therefore be put in perspective.

First of all, Bill C-70 is a collection of amendments that are going to complicate even further what Canadians had to contend with in the previous legislation. Just now, they were trying to tell us that this would make it easier for businesses to collect the GST, but this is not so.

Bill C-70, introduced by the Minister of Finance, is a striking example of what this government can do to make a mockery of democracy.

First, there is the manner in which this voluminous bill was tabled, without allowing time for the official opposition to examine

its contents. The official opposition had less than 24 hours to read and examine the complete bill. That is a mockery of democracy.

The Minister of Finance would do well to change his ways, for the benefit of Canadians. A bill as technical as this, with so many amendments, deserves to be examined in greater detail.

This is not the first example of the contempt in which democracy is held by members across the way, nor, I am sure, is it the last we shall see before the coming election. They will be trying to pull some fast ones on Canadians.

This bill is proof of the failure to keep the election promises made in the famous red book by the Prime Minister himself, by the Minister of Finance, by the Liberal government, which has forgotten, without a shadow of a doubt, that it is governing on behalf of the public.

How many times did they promise during the 1993 election campaign to scrap the GST outright? The present Prime Minister said that he was going to scrap it. In 1994, he also said that the Liberals, i.e. his own government, detested this tax and that they were going to get rid of it.

Today, with the tabling of this bill, we have come to the moment of truth. The worst part of all this, however, is that the Liberals used the taxpayers' money, yes the taxpayers' money, to pay for a byelection on this matter. The Deputy Prime Minister treated us to an appalling demonstration of how not to keep one's promise. Yet making the GST disappear was an election promise.

The only disappearance in this bill is that the GST has been made to disappear from view, has been camouflaged. It will be camouflaged, it will be hidden from view. The government ought to know that the people are not fools. The public knows very well that this government does not keep its promises.

In Quebec we have a motto, one which the people of Quebec will put into application when the time is ripe. That motto is "Je me souviens", and yes, we will remember. I shall speak shortly on what Quebec has done to harmonize its sales tax.

This brings us to Bill C-70, where the Liberals end up doing exactly what they themselves have criticized. The new GST is a hypocritical tax, and that makes a lot of people's hair stand on end. It is a hypocritical tax, that is true. From now on, it will be hidden within the cost of goods and services.

However, in a report of the Standing Committee on Finance which dates back, not to 1990 but to 1994, the Liberal majority, these people sitting in front of us, took a position that was clear and to the point on what the GST should be. They said in the report that it would be improper to hide from Canadians the amounts they paid in taxes to their governments and that making it a hidden tax undermined their ability to make the government accountable for the way these taxes were collected and, to a lesser extent, for the way moneys were spent. This is straight from the report of the Standing Committee on Finance. I repeat, the date is very important. This was in 1994.

What happened since that time? Today, we are hearing a very different message. I think the Liberals, the members of this government, are suffering from amnesia. What does this mean? It means saying one thing today and saying the opposite tomorrow.

Personally, this is an attitude I could not tolerate. We cannot change our minds overnight, just like that, especially when everything we buy nowadays costs Canadians an awful lot of money. Has power made members opposite deaf? Being in power means being hard of hearing, speechless and asleep. That is what is happening now.

Here is another example of the amnesia of members opposite. In 1989, they were in opposition. The position of the Liberals on hiding the GST in the sales price was that if the GST was hidden in the sales price, it would be much easier for the government to increase it later on. That is what they were saying in 1989. Today, they dismiss this out of hand. They have reversed their position. So they say one thing when they are in opposition and something else entirely when they are in power.

Is that what Bill C-70 is all about? Is the Liberal government proposing to hide the tax to make it easier to increase later on? Later on meaning a few months from now, after the election, for instance? Considering the selective memory of members of the current government, we have every right to ask these questions. And there is one I would like to ask especially: What can the public expect now? The Liberals, the people opposite, talked about doing away with the GST, but now they want to hide it. Can we expect any increases in the GST in the months to come?

We also know that 76 per cent of Canadian businesses are against hiding the GST in the price of goods and services, although the opposite was implied just now. Personally, when I pay my bills, I want to know where my money is going. I want to know the price of the product or service. I also want to know how much I will be sending the government and what it will do with it. I want the government to be accountable. I am sure that my constituents agree with me. Some members would do well to return to their riding and talk to those who elected them to see whether they approve of this bill.

Rest assured of one thing. I am going back to my riding to talk to the people. Every time I have the opportunity, I tell them that the government reneges on its promises, that the GST will be hidden

and that this government can do what it likes with it. It can do with it what it likes.

I would also like to look at another aspect of this bill, the most undemocratic element and one that, yet again, tramples the rights of Quebecers. We heard endlessly during the referendum campaign, and even afterward, that all Canadians were equal. This bill provides a fine lesson in equality. Just a fine lesson.

Quebecers are denied the compensation paid the maritime provinces. Is this the government's idea of equality among Canadians? Is this what it is? One law for the maritimes, one for Quebec. The Minister of Finance's election promise costs $1 billion. On top of it, they are calling this harmonization. I find this very confusing.

Naturally, someone is going to have to come up with this $1 billion. Although Quebec harmonized the sales tax with the federal government, it is going to have to pay $250 million. All the other Canadians are going to have to make up the difference. Is it in the public's interest to have double standards in government policies? I think not.

When will the Minister of Finance inform us of the criteria applying to his compensation package? This is very important. When will the Minister of Finance show us that Quebec is not entitled to this compensation? There must be a debate on this question. Quebecers are entitled to this debate, because they will be footing the bill.

I am telling you nothing new when I say that Quebec harmonized its tax with that of the federal government. Quebec administers the tax. Quebec acted very responsibly. Why then are Quebecers not entitled to the compensation the federal government is giving to the maritime provinces? I am wondering. The people opposite are hiding behind power.

Some day, the government will need to come up with an answer, in terms of equality and not of campaign promises. We have proof that this government's campaign promises are not being kept. They did not keep their promise with this bill, where harmonization of taxes was concerned, just as they did not keep their main promise regarding job creation.

It is all very fine to pitch all sorts of figures at us, but when everything is weighed out, it can be seen that job creation in this country is stalled.

If the maritime provinces have additional costs to pay in harmonizing their sales tax with the federal one, so does Quebec. If the maritimes are entitled to compensation, to the tune of $1 billion, then Quebec too is entitled to compensation. Once again, the Minister of Finance must show some fairness. Good for the maritimes and their co-operation with the federal government, but what about the other provinces?

The maritimes represent 15 per cent of the Canadian population. We cannot, therefore, say that harmonization is in place from sea to sea. The Minister of Finance is proposing a single tax to be administered by a national revenue commission. This commission would, for want of a better word, simply squeeze out the provinces. Once again, and every time a bill is tabled here, provincial rights are getting it in the neck. Here again, provincial autonomy is at stake. As we well know, the people on the other side do not give a hoot about provincial autonomy.

Since I have only a minute left, I would like to talk about the famous tax on books. People will remember the Bloc Quebecois debate here on the book tax. In Quebec, there is no provincial tax on books, whether they are bought by students, self-employed workers or anyone else. The sales tax does not apply to books in Quebec, but here, with this bill, sales tax will apply. There are, however, exceptions for certain institutions.

It is not true that the tax is 100 per cent abolished. Only clearly designated institutions, such as municipalities and libraries, will be entitled to deduct this tax. Canadians must not be taken for people who will swallow just anything. They will not. This bill does not eliminate the sales tax on books; only certain institutions will be exempted. In my opinion, the mere fact of taxing books promotes ignorance.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-70. I will be sharing my time. I will speak for about 10 minutes. I will begin with a brief summary of the new harmonized sales tax proposal.

Detailed agreements have been reached with three Atlantic provinces to implement the new tax, effective April 1, 1997. The agreements will include the replacement of the current federal GST and the provincial sales tax systems with a single, combined value added tax called the harmonized sales tax. There will be a substantial reduction in the current combined rates in these provinces, which are presently at 17 per cent, 18 per cent and 19 per cent. The rate will decrease to 15 per cent in the three provinces. There will be a single administration of both federal and provincial sales taxes. The national treatment of interprovincial sales will ensure a level playing field for participating provinces.

This is good news for consumers and businesses in these provinces. The new tax system will be simpler, more efficient and

more equitable. It is a practical example of how the federal and provincial governments can work together.

There will also be major benefits for consumers. With tax inclusive pricing the consumer will know the full price of their purchases before they get to the cash register. At the same time, they will know from their receipt how much tax they are paying. Of course the new sales tax rate will be substantially lower than the current rate in those provinces.

The harmonized sales tax will be simple and straightforward for business as well. Business will have to deal with only one tax, not two; one set of forms, not two; and one tax administration, not two.

The previous speaker spent a lot of time talking about some issues. I want to deal with those issues. I was hoping to talk more about the simplicity of the system, but if there is one system, versus two, the efficiencies are evident.

The member spoke at some length about a cover-up and a hidden tax. Today I had the opportunity to tape a cable show for my constituency and I spoke to one of the people at Rogers cable about Bill C-70. I asked her how she felt about it. The young lady said to me: "What I really do not like is when I see the price on the product and I go to the cash register and I have to pay a different price". That is very indicative of the big problem with the current GST system. The price on the shelf is not the price consumers pay at the cash register. Consumers are having difficulty making their purchase decisions because they have to do some mathematics.

By way of history, members should be reminded that the GST was not a brand new tax which somehow created these enormous revenues for the Government of Canada to pay for services and programs. It was a replacement tax for the former manufacturers sales tax, which was a hidden tax. It was never seen at the consumer level. It was applied at the manufacturing and production level. It was included at a rate of some 12.5 per cent or 13 per cent. It changed many times. I believe it started at 9 per cent and actually got up to about 13.5 per cent.

That price was carried through. It was a very unfair tax. It did not share the burden equitably and it was very unfair to the manufacturing and processing sector. That tax generated some $18 billion.

We know that the former government, the Mulroney government, brought in the GST to replace the FST. The current GST, when it was brought it, was actually generating less revenue for the government than the former FST. We have to think about that for a moment. If the GST was generating less revenue for the government than the former FST, that means, effectively, that consumers under the GST are paying less tax than they formerly were. However, they never saw it because the FST was a hidden tax.

I had an opportunity to participate in the finance hearings. We heard from 500 witnesses. We received over 700 reports and submissions. We listened carefully to the numerous alternatives people were coming forward with.

The finance committee reported to this place. It reported to the finance minister about some of the options. When the members of the committee came back with it they said: "We cannot find a better alternative and it is better not to change it just for the sake of change, so let us work with this the best we can".

I remember writing a little piece for my constituents in which I stated that on balance the proposed harmonized sales tax was not ideal but it was the best possible under the circumstances. The Mulroney government was unable to harmonize the federal and provincial sales taxes and opted for a complex GST applied to a base with numerous exceptions. It created a nightmare for business, angered consumers and generated less revenue than its predecessor tax.

I think most Canadians are clear why the GST has the problems it does. It was in fact in your face taxation. I do not think Canadians are opposed to paying taxes to ensure that Canadian programs that we are provided with are properly funded such as health care, seniors care and a whole host of things.

However, to assist the ordinary Canadian, one of the recommendations that came back from all these cross-Canada consultations was that the price on the shelf should be the price that one pays at the cash register so that the purchase decision was not fogged up by what taxes were going to be added. We knew exactly what we were going to pay. We also said that we do not want to hide the tax from the consumers, unlike what the prior speaker said, that we are hiding the tax. No, it is tax included pricing but it clearly states on the invoice that the consumer will see the amount of taxes included therein.

I believe it is very important that the consumer have the information and it is also necessary for accounting purposes. I think the member was a little intellectually dishonest in presenting a so-called cover-up.

The previous speaker also talked about poor Quebec. He also admitted that in 1991 Quebec did harmonize its federal and provincial sales taxes. However, he did not explain why. The reason Quebec did this is that harmonization leads to a better situation for Quebec businesses. I praise Quebec for having the wisdom to harmonize the tax. Now there is an input tax credit on the provincial component included in the combined tax. It means there is a lower selling price that has been passed on to the consumers. On top of that, it means it has a competitive advantage over Ontario which has not harmonized. It also has a competitive advantage in the export marketplace.

The member well knows that although Canada as a whole has had wonderful performance in terms of the export markets, the critical issue is that Quebec has had better than average performance in Canada simply because of the harmonization of the tax. On that basis alone, Quebec should say "we don't want you to know about this because it is such an important adjunct to the economy of Quebec". It is helping Quebec businesses not only in interprovincial trade but in the export business.

The question came up about this cost to the three maritime provinces. I had to think about this one a bit. The previous speaker somehow brought up a billion dollars. I considered that there were no other provinces in this country that have a provincial sales tax rate as high as they have in the three maritime provinces. We are talking about a 12 per cent provincial sales tax. In my province of Ontario it is only 8 per cent.

What do the members think that does to the ability of the consumers to purchase? Their purchasing power has been totally crushed by the burden of the provincial taxes.

The members will also know that the harmonization of the tax at a consistent rate facilitates interprovincial trade and makes the whole situation a good foundation to work with Quebec and Alberta, which has not sales tax, and I am sure Ontario.

I have no hesitation in supporting Bill C-70. This is a move in the right direction to make our tax system simpler, easier to administer and fairer for consumers and businesses.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Order, please. Before I proceed with questions and comments, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Moncton-Forestry.

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5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Philippe Paré Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have listened carefully to the remarks of our colleague across the way. I understood what he was trying to do. Unable to explain the difference between what the red book said and the government's record on the GST, he went into a defence of simplification and harmonization.

There is not a member in the House who has questioned the importance of harmonizing and simplifying taxes to make things easier for business. Our colleague across the way is not contributing to our understanding, because this is not what the debate is about. The Liberals are dragging it in that direction to avoid the real questions that should be asked, which the member for Chicoutimi brought out earlier.

In the red book, they said: "We hate this tax and we will scrap it". Now, instead of scrapping it, they are harmonizing it. This

way, things are so much nicer, it is less painful, and it brings in more money. They also said: "It should not be hidden". Now they are saying: "Magicians that we are, we have pulled it out of thin air, we have made it vanish, and now we are going to make it invisible".

But if simplification and harmonization are as wonderful as all that, why did the Atlantic provinces need to be paid $1 billion to go for the deal? The aim was to hide the tax in the price of food, medicine and books for educational purposes.

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5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is very important for the member and for Canadians watching to hear again from page 22 of the red book. Notwithstanding what the member has said, this is what the red book did say and what I ran on in the last election. It said:

In the first session of a new Parliament, a Liberal government will give the all-party Finance Committee of the House of Commons a 12-month mandate to consult fully with Canadians and provincial governments and to report on ways to achieve tax fairness, simplicity, and harmonization. In particular the committee will be mandated to report on all options for alternatives to the current GST. A Liberal government will replace the GST with a system that generates equivalent revenues, is fairer to consumers and to small business, minimizes disruption to small business, and promotes federal-provincial fiscal co-operation and harmonization.

That is what was promised and that is exactly what has been delivered.

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5:15 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, everyone is well aware of what it says in the red book. As I understood it, the question that was put to the hon. member was not what the red book said on page whatever it is, but what the Liberal candidates were saying during the last election.

That is far different than what it says in the red book. They can deny that until they are blue in the face. Reality has caught up with them. They know quite well what was said by a number of them, what was said by their leader about the GST and they certainly were not talking about harmonizing. They were talking, as the hon. member from the Bloc has said, about getting rid of it. They were talking about abolishing it. They were talking about killing the GST. That is what they talked about during the election campaign and Canadians know that. They will remind these candidates of it I am sure in the next election.

What I found particularly interesting about the hon. member's intervention was his stating that somehow he feels Canadians want a hidden tax. When Canadians go to the supermarket or to the department store and are looking at a price tag on some item, they want that to be the total price. That is what I understand he said in his remarks.

I have not found those Canadians. I have found that Canadians are so incensed with the GST, they want to know how much GST they are paying. When they go to the till they want to know that the item costs X and there is so much PST and GST attached to it. They

want to know how much they are contributing to the provincial or the federal government.

I would like the hon. member to reiterate, if possible, if he honestly believes that the majority of Canadians want a hidden tax. That is not my understanding.

I have spoken to a lot of Canadians about this issue. They want to know how much tax they are contributing to the two levels of government.

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5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that should be noted is that the Reform and the Bloc parties have not said what they would do. The role of the opposition is to deliver blows that would tenderize a turtle.

They continue to hurl things like scrap and abolish. But they know very well that $18 billion of revenue to the government cannot be thrown away. It goes straight to the deficit. That would totally destroy jobs.

Focus groups were conducted and Canadians have expressed a strong preference to know the full price of goods and services in advance of their purchase. That is what is proposed in the legislation and that is what will happen. However, they will know what tax is included in their purchases. It will be stated clearly on the bill of sale they receive at the cash register. That is exactly how it will happen.

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5:20 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Mr. Speaker, I have just a few words on this. After the excellent speech by my hon. colleague, I want to add a few words to what my hon. colleague said.

When he quoted from the red book from which the Bloc and the Reform parties keep quoting, the hon. member quoted exactly correct. But he forgot one thing in the middle of his quote. In the middle of the paragraph in the red book it says the committee will be mandated to report on all options for alternatives to the current GST. That committee met and a member of the committee from the Reform Party spoke in the House this afternoon.

It is interesting what the spokesperson for the Reform Party pointed out. He pointed out that the Tories and the Reform members of the committee wanted in their recommendations to tax food. The Reform Party of Canada, according to their spokesperson, according to their report, wanted to tax prescription drugs.

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5:20 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

The truth now.

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5:20 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Yes, I heard that here in the House this afternoon from the spokesperson for the Reform Party. Of course the Liberal government said: "Absolutely not. We are not going to do that". So they carried through with the second portion of what was said in the red book.

Well, members of the Reform Party and the Bloc stand here today, talking about being honest with the Canadian people. It is interesting that Thursday last week, my hon friend from Don Valley North stood in the Chamber and introduced a bill to put some restrictions on the banks. What did the Bloc say? "Oh, no, we cannot do that. Oh, no, we cannot interfere with the banks". That is the Bloc for you. Then the Reform Party say: "Oh no, you can't do that. You can't interfere with the profits of the banks".

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Morris Bodnar Liberal Saskatoon—Dundurn, SK

They are not making enough.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

They are not making enough. Incredible isn't it when each one of the banks are reporting profits over $1 billion. The CEOs are going to get $1 million in performance bonuses. The Reform Party and the Bloc stand in this Chamber as the two opposition parties and what do they say? "Oh no, we can't agree with members of the backbench" even though they are performing a function for the people of Canada.

Do you know what they are doing, Mr. Speaker? They are making the government accountable for the ordinary citizens of Canada, something that the official opposition should be doing.

What does the Reform Party want to do with the payroll taxes of Canada? Would everyone like me to read it out?

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5:25 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Read it.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

I will read it out. Here is the Reform Party of Canada on payroll taxes. What a dandy one this is. On page 45, for all the employers and employees in Canada, the Reform Party's budget.

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5:25 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Now the truth.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

The hon. member said "the truth". Here is the taxpayers' budget.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Order. I know the House appreciates the enthusiasm of the hon. member for Gander-Grand Falls but he knows also the rules that he must not use documentation as a prop. He is certainly entitled to quote from the material but he should be careful not to wave it around too much. It upsets some members. I appreciate that the hon. member will follow the rule.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. In other words, I will make sure I quote from it but I certainly will not show it so that anybody will know what I am quoting from.

Here is what the Reform wants to do with payroll taxes. Apart from on page 45 "having a benefit structure requiring two weeks of work for one week of benefits" here is what the Reform says. It says that it wants to "ensure that savings from reform of UI translate into deficit elimination". The Reform Party recommends "the establishment of a permanent reserve fund for UI until the budget is balanced. Funds from this reserve would be applied against the deficit. After the budget was balanced this fund would

remain to balance revenue and expenditure fluctuations under UI throughout the economic cycle".

It goes on to say: "Any additional savings from the restructuring of UI after the deficit has been satisfied" after this huge fund has built up, then Reform says: "savings will be passed on to employees and employers in the form of a reduction".

Imagine using unemployment insurance premiums not only to completely retire the deficit, not only to satisfy the debt of this country but then to build up an additional fund and somewhere down the road they are going to pass along a saving to an employer or an employee.

A tax is a tax. A tax is a tax is a tax. If it is on the employer, if it is on the employee, a tax is a tax is a tax. Basically what we have here are the opposition parties in this Chamber who do not like the record of this Liberal administration. No-

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Order. The hon. member for Prince George-Peace River on a point of order.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully request that if the hon. member for Gander-Grand Falls is going to quote from Reform members that he do it accurately.

Excise Tax ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The hon. member knows that is not a point of order.