Debates of March 13th, 1996

Privilege

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, since the time allotted to the Leader of the Opposition is unlimited, it is not followed by a question and comment period. Resuming debate. The government whip has the floor.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a few minutes to indicate to the House that some of the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition are-to say the least-far removed from the facts before the House.

Of course, we just heard him vent his feelings and his distress and say some things which are far removed from the truth-and I am being polite here. He argued, for instance-

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Side with the Reform Party!

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Maybe if the member opposite were to listen, he would finally learn something after all these years.

It is the Speaker of the House, and not the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, nor the government whip, nor the parliamentary secretary, who has ruled that this is a prima facie case of privilege. The issue was certainly not raised by the government. As it turned out, it was raised by someone else, but the fact remains that the House of Commons, through the Speaker, has decided that this was a prima facie case of privilege.

So, this is where we are at, right now. It is up to all the members of Parliament to ensure that the committee can do its job. And we are not talking here about a puppet committee, or a committee without rules, as the Leader of the Opposition put it. The leader of the opposition said that we have no rules to guide us. There are the Standing Orders of the House, Beauchesne, Bourinot, Erskine May, I could go on and on.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Not forgetting the red book.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

There are library shelves chock full of books on procedure to guide our deliberations in the House and in committees.

The leader of the opposition's splitting himself in two in the House to claim it is otherwise does not make it so. The inaccuracy still remains. The members across the way are talking of voting nay. There has not been a vote in this House as of this moment.

We are faced with a situation in which the Speaker has deemed there was a prima facie question of privilege. This was followed by a Speaker's decision to entertain a motion.

[Yvan Bernier, Bloc, Gaspé, QC]

Vote nay.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The motion before this House is unacceptable as it is improperly put.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Vote nay.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

You vote nay.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The hon. members across the way may continue with their catcalls, but the facts remain the same. If the motion is improperly drafted, it is the duty of this House to do things properly.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Vote against it, do not amend it.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

What we have done in this House is to propose, following on the ruling issued in this House by its Speaker, that it is totally in order for a committee to consider the matter. My colleague, seconded by myself, has therefore moved that the matter of the hon. member for Charlesbourg be referred to the parliamentary committee.

If the Reform members think-

[The Speaker]

Order, please. My dear colleagues, this is one of the most serious debates we have had here in this House. We shall all have the chance to speak here in the House. We are Canadians, we are democratic, and you will all have an opportunity to speak.

I ask you to have the courtesy to hear out all members of Parliament. This is a very important issue for all of us. As your Speaker I ask you to respect one another in this debate and listen to what is being said. Then you will make up your minds as parliamentarians.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to take a few minutes to conclude. We all have a duty to ensure that this Parliament works well. There are no puppet committees. The decision of the House to strike the Committee on Procedure and House Affairs was a unanimous one.

This committee, which deals with procedure, privileges and elections, was established by unanimous consent of the House. Every member of this House knows that it is the role of this committee to deal with such issues. It is wrong to now claim that this is a puppet committee with no rules. It is absolutely wrong. To make such a claim is also to insult this House. That is what it is. This is not a puppet committee, and it will do its job. Too bad for those who chose to make gratuitous accusations in their motion.

We, on this side of the House, and certainly myself as a long time parliamentarian, only want the committee to do its job, as it has done on several occasions. Contrary to the claim made, this is not unprecedented. I remember the Mackasey case. I remember other cases that were referred to the same committee and a decision was made. I even remember parliamentarians who chose to put their case before the committee, in order to prove their innocence. How can anyone say that this is a puppet committee? These are false allegations. Members opposite know that. It is wrong for them to now criticize in that fashion the existence of House committees and, in doing so, that of our parliamentary institution, and they know that.

Why did those across the floor who chose to make such gratuitous accusations not draft the motion in proper form? Surely, they must know how to do it. And if they do not, there are enough lawyers and procedural experts in this place to help them, and they surely could have consulted them. The same rule applies to them. All we have to do is refer the case to the committee, without making accusations, where it will be heard in an honest and legitimate manner.

That is all we have to do. All the people across the way and those making those kinds of gratuitous affirmations are no better. All we have to do as Parliamentarians is do our jobs honestly in the House and in the parliamentary committee. Then the issue will be clear and hopefully the House will be stronger when it comes out of this. However, it will not happen unless we all want to do the right thing.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a calm voice to this discussion. I would like to add it to those voices of hon. members who have been urging the motion of privilege put by the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt be accepted as it is, not as amended, and that the matter contained in the original motion be referred to the standing committee.

It has been well established that the member for Charlesbourg, a member of the defence committee of the House, released a communiqué on letterhead of the office of the leader of the official opposition of the House on October 26, 1995 before the referendum in Quebec. It invited Quebec francophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of a yes vote in support of separation from Canada.

The original motion calls for recognition that in the opinion of the House this action should be viewed as seditious, offensive and in contempt of Parliament. I will argue in favour of retaining the original wording. The government wants to water it down.

The issue is not whether the action by the member was foolish and ill considered; obviously it was foolish and ill considered. If the commission of foolish and ill considered actions from time to time were to constitute contempt of Parliament very few of us would escape its censure.

The issue is not whether the action by the member was offensive to the public, although it undoubtedly is offensive to many members of the public judging from the letters we have received, including letters from my constituents. The issue is not even whether the action of the member was seditious or traitorous in the sense of sections 53, 59 or 62 of the Criminal Code, a subject on which at least one Ontario court has partially ruled.

Rather, the issue is whether in the opinion of the House, a court in its own right with respect to its own privileges, the action of the member should be viewed as seditious and offensive.

I remind the government House leader these words were carefully chosen. They have not been carefully read but they were carefully chosen in the first place.

As early as June 1994 I urged the Prime Minister publicly and privately to spell out the terms and conditions which in the opinion of the federal government ought to govern any attempt at secession. I asked him to spell out the terms and conditions which ought to govern any public order issues, such as those envisioned by part II of the Criminal Code and the Emergencies Act. My fear was that in the absence of such guidelines it would be left to the sovereignists, those advocating the break-up of Canada, to define what constituted acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in those circumstances. That is exactly what happened.

The principal reason for allowing this motion to proceed in its original form is not simply to determine whether a particular member should be disciplined for actions offensive to this House and to many Canadians. It is to permit this House to consider through an examination by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. It is for the future guidance of all members in terms of what constitutes acceptable or unacceptable conduct with respect to urging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to pursue

a particular course of action in the event of an attempted secession by a province or a part thereof.

Part II of our Criminal Code tends to define sedition using an old wartime definition of sedition. It defines it narrowly as advocating governmental change within Canada by the use of force or violence. The Leader of the Opposition misses the entire point of our motion by harping on that particular definition.

Proceeding with this motion will require the standing committee to determine what should and should not be viewed as seditious in the present opinion of this House in the context of a secession attempt, something that the Criminal Code never envisioned, nor did the court cases dealing with sedition in the past consider. For example, it may well be that in the opinion of this House, under present circumstances, advocating a change of government in Canada by any unlawful means should be considered some form of sedition and that the Criminal Code should be changed to reflect that opinion. That could very well be one of the conclusions of the standing committee.

The government by amending the motion seeks to avoid coming to grips with the real issues raised by a secession attempt and the participation of members of this House in that attempt. It seeks again to avoid the realities of secession. That is precisely what it did prior to the referendum and it was a profound mistake. It was a strategic mistake. It allowed separatists to define what was acceptable and unacceptable in the event of a yes vote. It created a vacuum into which members like the member for Charlesbourg wandered and were allowed to do whatever they pleased. That same type of conduct will occur in the future if that vacuum is allowed to remain.

Many Liberal backbenchers, to their credit, saw that mistake more clearly than the advisers in the Prime Minister's office. Now by supporting this motion they have a chance to correct it. The House has a chance to correct it at least in relation to one small dimension of the separation issue.

Supporting this motion in its original form would make a major contribution to clarifying for all members what constitutes acceptable or unacceptable conduct with respect to attempting to influence the armed forces in the unusual constitutional circumstances in which this country finds itself. Supporting the motion in its original form contributes to the rule of law by defining the rule of law in an area where it is unclear or does not exist at all and contributes to peace, order and good government, two purposes for which this House exists.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a clarification from the hon. member as to whether or not he appreciates the importance of having this matter referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. I would like to get his view on the prejudicial aspects of the preamble to the hon. member's motion.

We are really talking about the fundamental issues of Canadian justice. Certainly as members of Parliament, which is from where all our country's laws should come, we should be setting the first example on justice. It strikes me that when we have a motion that colours the rights of any member of the House prior to its going to committee, we would be putting in jeopardy the deliberations of the committee. It was for that reason the amendment was offered.

I would like to get a specific reply to my question on whether or not there is a prejudice occurring.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if this matter is to be investigated, the charge has to be made in some way, shape or form so that the committee knows what it is investigating, what it is endeavouring to determine, what is true and what is not true. That is the reason for that thrust.

A second thing should be said in response to the member's intervention. His committee is not acting just like a court. This Parliament not only interprets laws and can interpret laws in committee, it also makes laws. In fact that is its primary function and that is why the motion is worded the way it is.

If someone does what is alleged and it is established that they did it or whatever the case is established, should that be viewed as seditious? That is not a question a court can answer but it is a question which Parliament and a committee can answer. If it should be viewed as seditious, then this body has the capacity to change the law and the definition of sedition. That is why the words "should be viewed" are included in the motion. To strike them changes the whole nature of what we are endeavouring to do.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am dismayed when I hear the member of the Reform Party talk of sedition and of such a serious matter, as you said Mr. Speaker, with practically no grounds. I think that the leader of the Reform Party is a smart man and knows how to read communiqués. I think he understands the news. I wonder why he is putting so much time and energie into bringing this matter up in the House today.

I think that, if one follows the news, one realizes-maybe this is something people do not know-that this matter has already been considered by a justice of the peace. A lawyer from Montreal was, like the Reform Party, of the opinion that the member for Charlesbourg had committed a crime of lese majesty and decided to lay a complaint. A justice of the peace, a law professional, a person who knows the law, who knows the Criminal Code, who knows what he is talking about, has studied the communiqué, has considered the facts at issue, and has rejected the complaint made by the Montreal

lawyer. Furthermore, the same thing occurred in Ontario, and the complaint was again rejected.

The member must be aware of that. Canadian legal experts, not only from Montreal or Quebec, but also from Toronto, in Ontario, determined that there was nothing wrong there. The communiqué was even been described as a job offer.

Today, some people feel the need to waste the time of the House, to make members of Parliament waste their time on something as ridiculous as this. There is no sedition. That is clear. I challenge the member to find in the communiqué issued by the member for Charlesbourg a call to violence or to threat to public order. Where can he find, in the communiqué, an invitation or an incitement to engage in some prohibited action? Where? Nowhere.

I challenge the member to find exactly where such things are to be found in the communiqué. He will draw the same conclusion as the justices of the peace and the legal experts: it is a job offer. The member for Charlesbourg said that after a yes vote, those who are in the army will be allowed to join the forces, or the Quebec army, since Quebec will have an army, as any other self-respecting country.

It is not a call to sedition or revolt to welcome people with open arms while telling them: "French and English speaking Quebecers, join us". Nowhere in the communiqué can such a distinction between French and English speaking people be found. The Reform Party members are the ones who are making that distinction. They are the ones acting in this way.

Where, in the communiqué, is there a distinction between French and English speaking people?

[Jean Landry, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Nowhere.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

These are other questions for which the Reform Party member, who is, moreover, the leader of the third party, will not be able to provide an answer.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's intervention. It gives us a chance to explain exactly what is going on here. If the member had listened to my remarks he would have heard what I said. I will repeat it slowly.

The issue here is not whether the action of the member was seditious or traitorous in the sense of sections 53, 59 or 62 of the Criminal Code, the sections cited in the two court cases the member refers to, both of which I have read and a subject on which two courts have partially ruled. That is not the question. We are not answering the question as to whether the member urged sedition in the sense of the Criminal Code with respect to the use of force or violence to overthrow the government.

The actual motion is whether in the opinion of this House the action of the member "should be viewed" as seditious and offensive. If the committee were to determine that it should be viewed as seditious that would require us to change the definition of sedition. That is where Parliament is different from a court. A court could come to the conclusion that this type of activity should be regarded as some sort of sedition but the court could do nothing about it. This Parliament can. That is why the words "should be viewed" are essential to the motion and should be left there rather than struck.

Members of the Bloc will not believe this but it is important to get it on the record. Getting these guidelines clear as to what is acceptable and unacceptable is as much for their protection and for the protection of their province as it is for anyone else. I am afraid that if these things are not answered then that is when accidents will happen. People will do ad hoc things that will be destructive to the interests of Quebec and Canada, things we have not even envisioned. We all have a vested interest, whether or not we agree in exactly what is acceptable or unacceptable in this circumstance, in spelling it out in law if that is at all possible.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to what the leader of the third party had to say. He has just confirmed that the judgment we are about to pass on the member for Charlesbourg is a question of political opportunism. It boils down to this: Was what the member said in this House or outside acceptable to the leader of the third party or did it offend him?

Does this means that from now on, whenever we ask an embarrassing question of the Prime Minister, a question that might be considered politically embarrassing by Canadians at large, or embarrassing for the government or whatever, the leader of the third party will rise and say: "Hand this guy over to a House committee". This is tantamount to throwing a lamb to the wolves.

And yet, this is what he is asking you to do. This is what is happening. We can no longer ask legitimate questions, questions our constituents are asking, and rightly so. This is all about political opportunism. We are told: "If we do not like what you are

saying, we are going to parade you in front of this wolf committee; you are the lamb and you are going to be torn apart".

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would answer that intervention with another question. The Bloc member cannot answer it today, but it will help the House.

Let us say that Quebec got its sovereignty. If someone advocated a change in the sovereign government of Quebec by unlawful means should that be prevented or prohibited in Quebec law? If your answer to that is yes, then you should be supporting the motion rather than opposing it.

[The Speaker]

This ends the question and answer period for this speaker. Once again, I ask all members to please address the Chair. Do not address one another. Address the Chair.