House of Commons Hansard #56 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was safety.

Topics

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Guay Bloc Laurentides, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Blainville-Deux Montagnes. It goes without saying that this decision will have to be reviewed.

It is totally unacceptable that only seven people make decisions. These people were probably influenced by air carriers. Air Canada played a role. Pressures were made. Why? Because the process was a secret one. Why do we not have the documents and why can we not take a clear look at the situation?

Something incredible happened. We-the hon. members for Blainville-Deux Montagnes, Argenteuil-Papineau and myself-brought petitions signed by some 40,000 or 50,000 people to the transport minister, who was very nice to us, only to tell us the next day that Mirabel was being closed because of the separatists. This is some answer. It is very logical and articulate.

It goes without saying that we must have access to all these documents to review them and to make sure ADM did indeed make the right decision. How did it reach its decision? We want to take a look at the whole process. Personally, I think Mirabel is the airport that should stay open. Sure, Mirabel is in my region, but it has all the necessary structures to expand and meet the future needs of Montreal and the surrounding regions. A brand new airport in full expansion will be closed to transfer flights to Dorval.

I would really like to know how ADM came to this decision. I would like to see all the documents and environmental studies. Environmental groups in the Dorval region are opposed to an increase in the number of flights to Dorval. ADM cannot even guarantee-as its spokesperson, Mr. Auger, said in an interview-that the number of flights to Dorval will increase. "There are X number of flights right now; as for later, time will tell".

This situation is very worrisome for people living around Dorval airport. Dorval cannot be further developed: it has reached its maximum capacity. What will happen? We definitely have to postpone, review, examine and analyze the decision to make sure it is the appropriate one.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Mercier Bloc Blainville—Deux-Montagnes, QC

Madam Speaker, since I have the opportunity, I would like to take it to point out to my hon. colleague, the parliamentary secretary, that this parallel between ADM and Nav Canada really is part of the debate, the similarity is so striking.

The advantage we have is that, since ADM has been around for four years, we can see in advance what will happen with Nav Canada by looking at what is happening with ADM. What is happening with ADM is that a decision has been taken that is not in the public interest and we cannot even get any explanations.

Do you know what will happen with Nav Canada? A few years down the road, you will see it take a decision dictated by financial interests, contrary to the public interest. Nav Canada will give the minimum notice required under law, since our amendments calling for more specific notice were rejected, and will take its decisions, without providing any explanations. And we will not have a leg to stand on, and, on that note, I will take my seat.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Guay Bloc Laurentides, QC

Madam Speaker, I would just like to conclude by saying that the comment made by my hon. colleague's is perfectly sound. That is what I was saying earlier: this should be used as an example for future reference, including as regards Nav Canada. We must therefore be able to examine what the same kind of not for profit corporations have done right and where they have gone wrong.

We must also be sure that the individuals who sit on those boards are honest. We must ensure a good representation of all stakeholders in all regions. And when a decision is made that is inconsistent with the public interest, we must be able to turn things around, by reversing this decision or improving on it, something we cannot do at present. Nothing of the sort is provided for regarding ADM. There are obviously connections to be made between the two.

I hope that public safety will take precedence so that everyone can take the plane safely and without fear. I often travel by plane and I am very worried. I hope that the government will support our amendment so that this aspect is covered.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Paul Marchand Bloc Québec-Est, QC

Madam Speaker, I will go on in the same vein as my colleague from Blainville-Deux-Montagnes. ADM's decision to transfer flights from Mirabel to Dorval raises not only the issue of increasing pollution and air traffic but also that of public interest. The problem with Mirabel is that ADM decided it was worthwhile to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in order to improve Dorval, forgetting that Mirabel is still there, that a lot of money has been invested in that airport.

As you know, it was the Liberal Party, under Mr. Trudeau's leadership, that saw to it that Mirabel got built. In transferring all flights to Dorval, ADM is forgetting that Mirabel is still a problem as that airport should also be developed. Negotiations about Mirabel must resume within eight to ten years. More money will have to be invested.

The decision to transfer flights from Mirabel to Dorval is a bad decision that does not take into account the interests of the public and of the people of Montreal. In the very short term, it is simply a stopgap solution. The obvious solution would be to build a suspended high-speed train that can cover the distance between Mirabel and Dorval in 10 minutes. The technology already exists in Quebec, and it would be an obvious solution as it would allow us not only to link Mirabel and Dorval-

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Order, please. The hon. parliamentary secretary on a point of order.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We are trying to debate the movement of the air navigation system in Canada over to Nav Canada. The hon. member's question is completely off topic and way out of line.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

That is not a point of order. The hon. member has exactly 30 seconds left in the time to make questions or comments and then we are resuming debate.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Paul Marchand Bloc Québec-Est, QC

Madam Speaker, I would reply to the hon. member that my comment is related to the issue under consideration because ADM is a very good example of mismanagement following the decision to put airport management and control back in the hands of private enterprise. ADM has no respect for Quebec's long term interests.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to this bill at the third reading stage. I have already had an opportunity to speak to it at the report state and I must state, regretfully, that there has not been much change in what I have to say, because most of the amendments proposed by the Bloc have been rejected. What I have to say has not, therefore, changed a great deal, nor has what I already said had very much influence on the debate. When in a minority position in a democratic system, we do what the others tell us to do, when they feel like it, when it suits them.

That is the democratic principle for minorities, and a minority is what we are in this House. Now, where are we, exactly, with this bill? I want to give a quick overview of the key points. I will start by pointing out before I go any further that something is happening in Canada at this time which merits our attention. Canada is selling its ports, its airports, its bridges, its rail lines, its rail cars, its navigation systems. A close look indicates that we are perhaps in the process of holding a huge clearance sale.

This legislation provides the legal framework for turning Transport Canada's navigation system over to Nav Canada, a not for profit corporation, as it has just been described, created under part II of the Canada Corporations Act. It is a follow up to the December 8, 1995 agreement in principle between Transports Canada and Nav Canada, selling the system for $1.5 billion.

The key principles of Nav Canada-four points set out in the Act-are that it is to be operated as a legally constituted, self-regulated entity operating on a cost-recovery basis. The air transportation tax levied on passengers when they purchase tickets from or to a destination in Canada will be eliminated in two years. During that time, the federal government will make transitional payments to Nav Canada based on anticipated ATT revenues. Nav Canada will have a commercial mandate to run and manage its operations according to recognized commercial practices. Nav Canada will set the charges for its services so as to recover all its costs from users.

My colleague from Rimouski-Témiscouata pointed out that military flights would not have to pay these charges and that Nav Canada would offer employees transferred from the public service the continuation of current collective agreements and the granting of successor rights to bargaining agents, as well as equivalent working conditions and benefits.

The purpose of this bill is to privatize and commercialize air services in Canada by incorporating Nav Canada. Creating this organization is, of course, part of Transport Canada's overall strategy to modernize transport services in this country. The federal government tells us we must support the principles of greater effectiveness and lower prices.

But it is easy to detect the real reason why the federal government wants to create Nav Canada. Its main concern is really to make air services profitable at the expense of safety and regional development. We emphasized this in our speeches throughout consideration of this bill.

The previous Minister of Transport himself stated that the government could no longer afford to pay for adequate air services. We therefore wonder, because it has not been proven yet, if the new corporation will be able to do better. For the moment, they are busy selling off and privatizing, although they have no idea where this will take us at the end of the day.

The government therefore must create an organization that will have on its board of directors representatives of all major airlines in Canada at the expense of small regional carriers, as my colleague from Lac-Saint-Jean pointed out a while ago, when he talked about the impact privatization will have on Air Alma, for example. We had hoped that this negative aspect of the bill would be reviewed and corrected along the way.

Unfortunately, it was not, in spite of the many representations made by small carriers. It is clear that only major carriers like Canadian and Air Canada will have a representative with any decision power of Nav Canada's board of directors, and this of course because our major carriers are in the majority. As my colleague, the hon. member for Rimouski-Témiscouata explained, they will probably make decisions based on their own interests and needs, at the expense of small carriers.

But, as we know, the needs of major carriers are often quite different from those of smaller ones. For example, major carriers would like fly over fees to be lower than landing fees, while small carriers are calling for just the opposite. This tends to suggest that decisions on certain matters will require debate on conflicting interests on a board where small carriers will always be the minority.

I am therefore concerned about the impact this will have on the economy, tourism and regional development, since small carriers operate mostly and for the most part at the regional level. As you know, the regions are mainly served by small regional carriers and the fact that these small carriers will not be represented adequately and that their voice will not be heard when decisions are made can only impede long term regional development.

Nav Canada will have a monopoly on air navigation services. It will slap users with fees and have total control over the fee structure. How can we not predict or expect the financial interests of major carriers to take precedence over everything else in the long run, including public interest and safety? But the need remains to ensure that someone is still accountable for safety standards, which must be the top priority at all times.

I cannot see how the government could oppose this motion tabled just recently, when the sponsor of the bill himself, a minister, stated in a speech that Transport Canada's top priority was to maintain and, whenever possible, to improve the safety and security of Canadians. Yet, there is not much said about safety in this bill. I do hope government members will stand by the statements made by one of their ministers, even though what we saw and heard in recent weeks about this bill might lead us to think otherwise.

It must be understood that Nav Can's board of directors will be made up of people from the private sector. These people are, of course, interested in having a profitable venture, in making profits. When they sit on the board, their primary concern is the impact of the decisions on their own companies. This is only normal.

It is obvious that this bill is primarily about financial considerations. This is why the Bloc Quebecois withholds its support for Bill C-20 until a reference is included about safety. This legislation favours financial security, instead of the safety of airline personnel, passengers and the general public.

The air navigation sector does not allow for any mistake, because mistakes cost lives. This is an area regarding which the federal government can never elude its responsibilities. The government has an obligation to give priority to safety. Yet, there is no reference in this bill to such an obligation or to any commitment to this effect. This is why the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, seconded by the hon. member for Blainville-Deux-Montagnes, proposed an amendment, which I will read because it accurately reflects the Bloc's position: "That this House declines to give third reading to Bill C-20, An Act respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services, because the Bill does not give the safety of passengers, airline personnel and the public priority over all other considerations in business decisions made by Nav Canada". Yet, we are at third reading stage now.

For some months now, we have been seeing an increasing tendency to give overriding priority to financial considerations in all decisions, whether governmental or quasi-governmental. We see it in discussions about human rights violations in certain countries, when ministers and even our own Prime Minister regularly rise in their place to say that, in the final analysis, what matters is business law, and other interests will have to take a back seat.

This makes us think that, in the bill before us, safety issues are of secondary importance. That is why we have a lot of trouble swallowing it.

I would like to mention that we are in agreement with the actual principle of privatizing air navigation services, but that we will still

vote against this bill, because it does not take into account the safety principles that must override all else.

We proposed amendments along these lines, amendments that we considered important and on which there was unanimous agreement, in principle at least, but which were nonetheless rejected. All we are asking is that these principles be clearly set out in the bill, that they be part of the preamble, and that they serve as guidelines for the operation of Nav Canada. Apparently we are not going to get this, and we will be voting against the bill.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Hamilton West Ontario

Liberal

Stan Keyes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport

Madam Speaker, it really troubles me that for nothing more than political partisan principles, this hon. member would come to the conclusion that the reasons why he cannot support the bill, and obviously the chief reason why he cannot support this bill, is because he feels that the transfer of the air navigation system to NavCan would be "to the detriment of safety," or "there is not much talk of safety in this bill," or "the principles of safety have not been kept in mind".

Remarks like that from the hon. member opposite are totally irresponsible and bordering on fear mongering. I want to explain to the hon. member again why safety is a priority of the government and why safety regulations have been built into this bill to ensure that safety is the number one priority of the government and of NavCan, the not for profit agency that will take over air navigation services in this country.

The supremacy of safety comes through references to the Aeronautics Act and regulations made pursuant to that act. I am not sure if the hon. member even knows what the Aeronautics Act is. If he did he would understand that the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act in this bill assures safety. Clause 5 of the bill states that "nothing in this act affects the application of the Aeronautics Act". Again, it is a demonstration that safety is the number one concern of NavCan and the government when it struck the bill.

Clause 14 states that any changes in services or facilities that Nav Canada wants to make must be subject to the Aeronautics Act and any regulations made under that act that relate to aviation safety or safety of the public are again subject to the Aeronautics Act, an act that has served this country well, an act that ensures safety for the travelling public in this country.

Where it was determined that the Aeronautics Act could be strengthened, Bill C-20 provides for consequential amendments to the Aeronautics Act. Clause 101 of Bill C-20 provides for an amendment to the Aeronautics Act to give the minister authority to make orders directing ANS Corporation to maintain or increase the level of civil air navigation services it provides in accordance with such terms and conditions as may be specified in the orders. Clause 103 provides for a significant maximum daily fine for conviction arising from a failure to implement a safety order.

While Transport Canada was both the operator and the regulator of the air navigation system, safety of the system was largely governed by internal departmental standards, practices and procedures. These internal safety procedures, policies and practices are now being given legal effect through part eight of the Canadian aviation regulations. These regulations will be in effect prior to the transfer of ANS to Nav Canada.

If the member wants more, the regulations will also require Nav Canada to establish a safety management program that provides for an internal system of oversight to ensure the safety provision of civil air navigation services.

On top of all these safeguards, if that was not enough for the hon. member to stop this-I will not go on.

ANS will remain subject to independent scrutiny by the Canadian Transportation Safety Board, the CTSB. The separation of operational responsibility and regulatory responsibility has the advantage of offering an arm's length relationship between the regulator and the regulated. This arrangement has served the public interest well in the case of the regulation of air carriers, aviation personnel, aircraft manufacturers and other commercial aviation.

Part eight of the Canadian aviation regulations also give the minister the right to request the provider of civil air navigation services to conduct an aeronautical study when proposing to reduce a service. An aeronautical study is intended to demonstrate how aviation safety will be addressed. If the minister is not satisfied with the results of the study, the service provider can be directed to maintain the service.

I am not sure if the hon. member opposite was aware of all these particulars in Bill C-20. I am sure that if he were, he would not get up and start talking about how the bill is to the detriment of safety or that there is not much talk of safety in the bill or that the principles of safety have not been kept in mind. I assure the hon. member opposite they have been.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Speaker, the comment was a very good one. I am sure that Canada has legislation applicable to air navigation.

What we would have liked to have seen done was for there to be included in the preamble to the bill a condition making safety a priority, so that Nav Canada's board of directors would never lose sight of it. This was not done.

Earlier in the House we heard about a very specific case of what can happen with a private corporation looking after the public interest, the example being ADM, which is a body very similar to the one being considered. It is a not for profit, private corporation

that will, in fact, look after the public interest. We saw that ADM is the solution to a number of problems for the government. There is no access to information with ADM, while there would have been with the government.

We can see, then, that the transfer to private corporations of responsibilities that, until now, belonged to the government places limits on a number of things. We would have liked to see the preamble to this bill include a statement, once and for all, to the effect that when Nav Canada's board of directors meets, priority will be given to safety of operation.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Madam Speaker, this is more by way of an observation. If the member wishes to comment, I would welcome it.

During his dissertation and that of most of the Bloc members preceding him, the word privatization was used over and over again. Also the government used the word privatization in connection with the commercialization of air traffic control. There is a very real difference between privatization and commercialization.

This is commercialization which is putting the air navigation on a self-sustaining, commercial basis. It is not being privatized. The essence of privatization is the ability to fail. The air navigation system in Canada will not be put into a position where it may fail or go bankrupt. It will face no competition. It is being commercialized. The net result is the cost to Canadians will not necessarily be diminished. It will be taken off the government books and run as a private not for profit organization.

It will not be allowed to fail. It will have the ability to raise prices to ensure it maintains its service, just as the post office has done.

We need to make a clear distinction over the course of the next few years between privatization, which is devolving from the government to a private agency which can fail, which has the ability to fail, and commercialization, which is taking it off the government books and making it self-sustaining.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for presenting this analysis. It seems to me that throughout the debate we may have been over-using the term "privatization" and there is an essential difference between "privatization" and "commercialization". We ought to have used "commercialization", because that is what is involved here, and I thank my colleague for making this clarification.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Deshaies Bloc Abitibi, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak for a second time on Bill C-20 respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services. First of all, a number of Bloc Quebecois members have confirmed that the Bloc is not opposed to the principle of creating a quasi-governmental body to control air navigation.

We cannot, however, merely be yes men and say that yes, the principle is a good one, we have no hesitation about it, it is a noble principle to ensure quality air service to all Canadians. It is, in my opinion, the role of the official opposition to ask questions. Mine are specifically related to the needs of the regions.

One may wonder why the federal government is getting rid of its responsibilities for air navigation. One might conclude perhaps that the federal government is not doing a good job. I think there would be few members across the way who would dare to say that the federal government was not doing a good job. On the contrary, I believe that Canada had a very good reputation in connection with air control. There have not been large numbers of fatalities that can be blamed on negligence.

If the government has been doing a good job, why then does it no longer want that job? Essentially, people will admit that, for about the last decade, the government's policy has been aimed at sloughing off its responsibilities toward Canadians onto the users.

This is why the Bloc Quebecois has debated longer than the government would like, it having thought the bill would be adopted promptly. There is one simple reason for this bill, the simple desire to transfer to a quasi-private body the responsibility for controlling this industry and ensuring Canadian safety.

The regions are afraid of those changes. Are they afraid of technology or of changes? The regions are not afraid to move forward. What they are afraid of is that every time there is a change, it results in a reduction of services for them. In Val-d'Or, there is a regional airport with certain services, slowly we have lost our air traffic controllers. They are no longer needed. Traffic can be controlled from Toronto, Montreal or maybe New York or Vancouver. It does not matter, everything is possible.

We know that technology is far more advanced now than in the past, but human errors and instrument errors can still happen resulting in safety being of a lesser quality in the regions than in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver or any major airport with services and modern and high performance instruments, but where men and women look after their quality .

In the regions, we are losing out on quality. We have also lost airport fire services. Airport firemen are supposedly not that

important since municipal firemen can do the job in case of an accident. But, as you know, in small municipalities, firemen are not always on duty and by the time they are called, passengers might perish in the flames. To maintain the presence of firemen at the airport, as before, could have improved safety.

Moreover, with all the changes, the regions lost their weather services. Technology might make it possible to call a 1-800 number in Montreal, Quebec City, or anywhere in the world to get a local weather report. Maybe it can be done in theory, but in practice, the weather can change within 15, 20 or 30 minutes and such changes can have a great impact on the security of airplane pilots and passengers. Therefore, in the regions, changes are frightening because they always mean reduced services.

Changes also bring an increase in costs for the regions. They say we will have the same services, the same quality, but that is rarely the case and furthermore, they do not say if there will be an additional cost. For example, if pilots want a weather report, they have to dial a 1-800 number; we should say a 1-800-$$$ number, because it can cost from $4 to $8 to obtain information before making a flight plan.

Is it logical to have a definition of the user pay principle? Nobody can be against that. Those who receive the services will have to pay. It was true also when they modified the CN services in the regions. The CN was privatized. There were changes and services were reduced and now some parts of it will even be closed. So any talk about change causes fear in the regions.

The Canada Post Corporation is another example of privatization. A general outcry slowly rose under the Tories and it is still going on under the Liberals. They do not close local post offices any more; they wait for the postmaster to retire and they simply do not fill the vacancy. This is just like those green boxes they installed, saying that they were still providing the services. Therefore, in the regions, when they speak about change, we always dread some reduction in services.

The federal government wants to shun its responsibilities and get rid of air traffic control services in order not to have to pay anymore. But will Nav Canada replace the government adequately? We are asking ourselves some questions. That is why members of the Bloc Quebecois are making many speeches on the subject. We do not believe the safety of Toronto, Montreal or other major airports will be reduced, because it is the role of Nav Canada to ensure this safety, but we are concerned that, in the regions, for instance, this safety may be overlooked.

It is true that, theoretically, regional airports like the one in Val-d'Or have satellite or radar air control equipment that is as sophisticated as those in Montreal. But, in practice, if we consider that the services of firefighters, air control, radio and weather systems have been reduced, thus increasing the risk of accidents, it is likely the regions' safety will be decreased. It is mathematical.

Moreover, regions are concerned about the way the bill will be passed on to them. Just consider what happened in the past. There was always a bill, although not necessarily in the first or second year. But with limited revenues in the regions, there are not many flights. It is not like Mirabel or Dorval, where there are four, five or eight flights a day. With these revenues, few airports will afford new technologies and, consequently, better safety in the future.

As I was saying, with a preamble stating that safety would have primacy over economy, we would have had a tool forcing Nav Canada to provide not necessarily high quality and costly tools such as those needed by airports like Montreal and Mirabel, but tools that are useful and necessary to ensure safety in the regions.

I think the regions are able, because of the balance created by the fact that everyone pays taxes, to receive a fair minimum service. This is not written in the bill. We would have been in favour of the bill if we had been told this primacy would exist.

Nav Canada will not endanger the safety of Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver airport. After losing the federally managed regional services acquired over the years, we now wonder if these services will ever come back; the chances are pretty slim.

Will we lose the minimal snow removal services? There are many questions we could ask. Will our safety depend on the level of revenue? If the federal government wants to transfer ownership of airports throughout Quebec to the municipalities, will these municipalities, because of the costs, be able to assure us that runways will be cleared properly? Probably, but the level of service will be a little lower than at major airports.

To the user pay policy I could oppose a true principle. If the regions could receive part of the taxes collected on the price of plane tickets, they could perhaps afford to pay for Nav Canada's future services. We could then talk about the user pay principle, but we would also collect some of the revenue. If the federal government can collect the tax revenue, I do not see why the regions could not collect part of it to look after their own airports.

The regions feel shunted aside by Bill C-20; they feel the government is telling them: "If you do not take control of your airports, we will close them". And it closes them in two ways. The municipalities fear that, in the next two to three years, they will be forced to take over the regional airports to prevent the federal government from closing them.

Should they succeed in taking them over, they will have to pay the exorbitant maintenance bills that Nav Canada or another government organization will present them with. This would force them to close the airports. If, however, we specified in a preamble to the bill that safety is paramount, we could help regional airports to carry out safe operations. The regions-including my region of Abitibi, the North Shore, the Gaspé region, and all the northern regions in Ontario and Manitoba-would not have to pay higher bills because of the costs of providing services for relatively few people.

The government was doing a good job in the regions 10 years ago, but things have been going downhill. There is a question mark. Will Nav Canada take over? We have our doubts. That is why we are asking questions and presenting arguments, and why some members are talking about regional problems. We talked about ADM, which is concerned not directly but indirectly, as it is true that there are similarities between Nav Canada and ADM. I think that some members are seizing the opportunity to address this issue.

For the regions, the theory is there. History has a tendency to repeat itself. If Nav Canada is not based on the premise that safety if paramount, we feel that, sooner or later, our regions will lose their airports.

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1:30 p.m.

Hamilton West Ontario

Liberal

Stan Keyes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport

Madam Speaker, I want to address one more time the issue of safety, particularly the preamble the hon. member has been alluding to along with his colleagues in the Bloc.

I will not go through it again. I stood after the last speaker and explained how safety is our first priority. It is in the bill. Clause 5 clearly establishes the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act. Clause 14 provides another example where it requires changes in services to be consistent with the Aeronautics Act and regulations made pursuant to that act.

Let us talk for just one moment on the preamble, like the one proposed by the Bloc Quebecois in Motion No. 1. Let us first look at what that preamble states: "Whereas the safety of passengers, personnel, air carriers and the public has priority over all other considerations in business decisions taken by Nav Canada". That sounds pretty good. Why would we not have a motion like that off the top of a bill that talks about passengers, personnel, air carriers and the public having priority over all other considerations in business decisions?

There is a reason and it is why the government had to vote down Motion No. 1 put forward by the Bloc. The one proposed here is silent. For example it does not say a word about the respect of safety of private and recreational aviation. It does state air carriers. By air carriers we mean Air Canada, Canadian, the big guys, but it is silent on private and recreational aviation.

How can anyone ask the government to put in a preamble to a bill when it is void of something as critical as private and recreational aviation? It is covered in the bill because the Aeronautics Act has supremacy. It is in the Aeronautics Act and therefore it is covered.

Bill C-20 ensures that safety is our top priority. It ensures that Nav Canada will ensure that safety is its top priority. The question of a preamble is a good one but unfortunately this one was lacking and had to be voted against.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Deshaies Bloc Abitibi, QC

I am delighted to see, Madam Speaker, that our friend opposite recognizes the need to define security requirements for Canadians. Perhaps the Bloc's proposed amendment is broad in scope, but that was the intent, to ensure that this matter of definition would be debated, since I am speaking basically on behalf of the regions-it may be true of other objectives as well-but as regards the price set on future security needs, the regions will wonder who will be expected to pay for all this.

My colleague opposite suggested the airlines might be picking up the tab. If the costs were distributed among paying users, I would see no problem. The regions would be able to keep their airports. But will airport owners be made to pay?

I think it is very important to discuss who will pay. I am sure that profitable airports like Dorval, Mirabel, Toronto and Vancouver might not have any problems adjusting to a new and safer technology. However, it may prove to be next to impossible for municipalities with zero money in the budget to operate the airport to find an additional $50,000 or $100,000 every five years to cover an occasional expense to acquire new and safer technology.

I think that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport was right to point this out. Had debate been allowed on this amendement, I think all Canadians would have benefited.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Is the House ready for the question?

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those in favour will please say yea.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.