Debates of Sept. 17th, 1996

Prisons And Reformatories Act

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to bring to your attention that Beauchesne says when a member rises on a point of order, that member must be recognized by the Speaker of the House. The Speaker of the House at that time must hear the point of order before making a judgment whether or not the member can be heard.

I would appreciate, Madam Speaker, that you reconsider your position with regard to the hon. member for Yorkton-Melville at the present time.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

Is there another point of order?

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would like to complete the point of order I raised previously with regard to the procedure in the House of Commons. I had a question for you. Why, when one member was here waiting to speak, was that privilege denied by the Chair, and then another member rose and the Speaker recognized or wanted to recognize another? That member was not in the Chamber and we were not accorded the same privileges that member received. What was the procedure with regard to that? I would appreciate the Speaker's comments.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

Hon. members, these are not points of order. Resuming debate.

[Shaughnessy Cohen, Liberal, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Madam Speaker, as the government has stated, Bill C-53 is an excellent example of both the government's continuing commitment to responsible criminal justice reform and a positive federal, provincial and territorial collaboration.

Our correctional system divides its responsibilities between two levels of government and among 13 separate provincial and territorial jurisdictions. While each level of government and each jurisdiction has its own unique challenges, there are many issues common to all of them which face all of them. Now more than ever it is important that we work in collaboration to share our expertise and experience in addressing these common problems.

It is no secret that all jurisdictions have been experiencing prison population growth in recent years. This population growth threatens to outstrip available resources. At the same time those very government resources have been declining. These pressures, if we do not seek effective solutions, will undermine any jurisdiction's ability to effectively treat, manage and return offenders to the community as law-abiding citizens. That, after all, is our shared goal.

From 1989-90 to 1994-95 the federal penitentiary population grew by 22 per cent. During this same time period, provincial prison populations grew on average by about 12 per cent. While this growth was occurring, the reported crime rate was actually declining. Why have we seen this increase in prison populations? In fact there are a number of reasons.

There are indications that at the provincial level more custodial sentences are being given by the courts and for longer periods of time. There has also been a significant growth in the number of charges for sexual and other forms of assault. At the federal level there have been fewer conditional releases granted and more revocations of those releases that are granted.

The net result is that Canada's incarceration rate is simply very high by world standards. In fact, among western countries it is one of the highest. The combined federal, provincial and territorial incarceration rate is 130 youth and adult offenders for 100,000 population. This places us far above European countries such as the Netherlands at 51 per 100,000, or Germany at 81 per 100,000.

Even among western democracies there are considerable differences in culture, values and social institutions which make it difficult to assume that direct adoption of the practices of other nations would be viable. Nevertheless when our incarceration rate is so dramatically higher than many of our European partners, it is incumbent on us to ask some tough questions as to why this might be so. Some believe for example that the criminal justice system today is too often used to deal with social problems that could be handled more effectively by other social services or programs or by greater collaboration among health and social program areas and the criminal justice system.

In particular we need to be sure that the criminal justice system is making the most effective use of community health and social resources in preparing offenders for returning to our communities as law-abiding citizens. All jurisdictions have traditionally considered community corrections to be a viable alternative to incarceration for low risk offenders.

Today community based programs are increasingly important as cost effective correctional alternatives that can be used to offset escalating institutional populations and costs. When an offender should be imprisoned because of the risk they pose to the public, that is where they should and will remain. This is not a question of dollars and cents; it becomes a question rather of public safety. Where that public safety can be achieved through controlled reintegration into the community, then that is the best way to ensure that scarce taxpayers' dollars are spent on incarcerating only those offenders who truly must be incarcerated or who truly need to be incarcerated.

Some community based measures which have been integral parts of correctional practice for years are being given more emphasis today. These include things such as bail verification and supervision programs, electronic monitoring, house arrest, fine option programs, victim-offender reconciliation programs, enhanced probation, and community based treatment programs. All of these programs have at their heart the diversion of low risk offenders out of the criminal justice system or to a lower degree of control within the system when it is safe and consistent with criminal justice objectives to do so.

Early intervention to divert offenders before a criminal behaviour pattern has been established is regarded by many as a sound method to avoid future criminal involvement and the associated costs to society.

Many such programs have been developed and tested on both an experimental and an ongoing basis. Recent consultations have revealed that there is a renewed interest in many jurisdictions and that there are many such programs being implemented or considered.

The reforms in Bill C-53 provide an excellent opportunity to build on this renewed interest. These improvements to the provincial temporary absence legislation will provide a sound and flexible framework for provinces and territories to provide community based management of offenders in appropriate cases. Offenders who are able to work can continue to do so while others can pursue treatment, educational, vocational or other programs in the community, all while subject to correctional control.

As I said at the outset, all jurisdictions are facing common problems with regard to escalating workload pressures in the criminal justice field. Solutions are being sought in diverse ways but with many common themes. Sharing knowledge about these efforts, working together to expand our knowledge about the problems and potential solutions, and engaging in collaborative efforts can maximize the results of each of our individual efforts and benefit all jurisdictions.

[The Speaker]

Of course when the debate continues after question period, the hon. member will have the floor.

It being almost 2 p.m., we will now proceed to Statements by Members.

North Atlantic Treaty Organization

[Jesse Flis, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as the decision to enlarge NATO approaches, the countries of central and eastern Europe that favour integration are especially interested in its outcome. Indeed these countries desire to join the European Atlantic alliance, hoping that this will provide guarantees for their security and stable political and economic evolution.

It is of the utmost importance for Canada, within NATO, to favour the growth of democracy in Eastern and Central European countries and their integration in the European institutions.

Furthermore, the establishment of open and prosperous market economies in the region will generate important trade and investment opportunities for Canada and will contribute to a more beneficial world economy and economic gains for all.

The entire region of Central and Eastern Europe needs to be included in a new European security arrangement based on NATO membership. This approach will require sophisticated diplomatic initiatives and a well conceived strategy. Canada can make a significant contribution to this process.

Young People In Montreal North

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today I would like to draw the attention of the House to the talent and achievements of two young people in my riding of Bourassa. They owe their success to their tenacity and their boundless courage.

I am proud to salute Patrick Brunet who ranked third in Radio-Canada's Course Destination Monde. This extraordinary adventure illustrates the ability of our young people to be open to the world.

I also want to extend warm congratulations to Annie Pelletier, from Montreal North, who won the bronze medal for diving in the three meter category at the Olympic Games in Atlanta.

The achievements of these young people will go down in history. This is clear proof that by giving young people a chance to develop their many talents we encourage excellence and competitiveness and thus guarantee the future of our society.

Liberal Party

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, listening to the Prime Minister and listening to my constituents in Lethbridge I could swear we were living in two different countries. The Prime Minister says it is the best of times. He says: "Relax. Everything this fine". He thinks things are okay just the way they are.

That is not what I heard this summer. These are not the worst times, but there is a deep uneasiness with the people I talk to. There is sort of a gut feeling that things are not as good as they should be.

What these people sense that the Prime Minister does not is that Canada can do better: better than the mess that the government has made of the armed forces; better than the laws that say only multiple murderers get a full sentence; better than the national unity plans consisting of flag giveaways; better than a debt that will reach $600 billion in a few weeks; better than a 9 per cent unemployment rate every single month for the last six years.

To those who know in their hearts that Canada can be more than this I say the following. Just because the Liberals have settled for second best does not mean they have to as well.

Prostate Cancer

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, may I remind the House that this week is prostate cancer awareness week.

As colleagues may be aware, prostate cancer now has the highest rate of occurrence for newly diagnosed forms of cancer in Canadian men, after non-melanoma skin cancer. It is also the second most common cause of cancer deaths.

During this decade the incidence of the disease has risen at an unusually high rate. The lives and health of many Canadian men and their loved ones will be affected by this cancer and by interventions of screening and treatment.

Greater awareness about prostate cancer and more research into ways to prevent and treat this disease are needed.

I commend the Canadian Cancer Society and the Canadian Prostate Cancer Network for their continuing work in helping to combat this disease.

Community Credit Project

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to applaud a new initiative which will put an additional $2 million into the hands of small business people in rural Ontario. The Community Credit Project is a result of a partnership between the Bank of Nova Scotia and the Ontario Association of Community Development Corporations and represents an example of Industry Canada's efforts to increase small business access to capital.

Scotiabank has agreed to make $2 million in wholesale loan funds available at below market rates to eight community development corporations that will administer the loans under their existing network. This will provide viable businesses with access to much needed higher risk start-up and expansion capital, directly addressing one of the greatest obstacles to small business growth and development in Ontario.

This is an effective partnership between a private funding source and an existing public delivery network that positively impacts job creation in rural Ontario. I congratulate the sponsors.

Peacekeeping

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, September 17 marks the United Nations International Day of Peace. It is a day for us to be proud of the contributions that Canada has made to the United Nations such as those of former Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson who won the Nobel peace prize for creating the concept of peacekeeping during the Suez crisis.

Since that time, Canadians have been involved in numerous UN missions including Korea, Cyprus, Rwanda and of course our ongoing mission in the former Yugoslavia.

Last year Canada was credited with initiating a UN rapid reaction force that would act in times of crisis.

Canada has good reason to be proud of its past performance, and must continue to work in conjunction with the United Nations on behalf of peace in Cyprus, Lebanon, Iraq and anywhere else in the world where human rights and international law are not being respected.

Dairy Products

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since August, the government's decision to terminate the industrial milk subsidy has resulted in a higher price for milk solids, and that increase will be reflected in the price of dairy products. Consumers will, in fact, have to pay an average of 4 per cent more for their dairy products, and this hits the less well off particularly hard.

This is only the first step, for the end of the industrial milk subsidy, as announced in the last Martin budget, will continue to have repercussions for the next five years.

It is unfortunate that low fat products will be the ones most affected, since these contain more milk solids. This will eventually have an impact on the general health of the population and, strangely enough, at the very moment the federal government is also pulling out of funding health services, by cutting back its transfer payments.

Employment

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this government promised jobs, jobs, jobs. It has not delivered.

The unemployment rate remains above 9 per cent after three years of economic recovery. I blame this dismal record on the government's failure to deal with labour market problems.

Our employment insurance system subsidizes permanently seasonal industries. Premiums, known to kill jobs, are too high. Our high marginal income tax rates drive abroad the most skilled and entrepreneurial Canadians. Our high capital gains and corporate taxes push investment abroad.

Small business, the Canadian job creation machine, is held back by red tape and excessive taxation. Large business is discouraged from hiring labour by too much regulation and legislated wages.

High unemployment can be cured. The evidence from around the world is clear. Shame on this government for not acting.

Goods And Services Tax

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, at a time of increasing concern about literacy, it is unfortunate that another Liberal promise was broken a week or two ago when the Minister of Finance made it clear that the Liberals were not going to retract the GST on books.

At the time, the Minister of Finance defended his decision by challenging his critics to say where the $140 million would come from. One of the places the Prime Minister could look for the $140 million is in the $2 billion that was moved overseas tax free as a result of the family trust loophole.

In that respect I am very glad to welcome the legal action being taken by Cho!ces, a social action group in Winnipeg, which is going to take the federal government to court if it does not have that tax decision, that advanced ruling reviewed so the money that should be going into the public treasury goes there to pay for things like taking the GST off books.

The Death Of Rose Ouellette

[Ben Serré, Liberal, Timiskaming—French-River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Rose Ouellette, known affectionately to everyone as "La Poune", has died at the age of 93.

Her death marks the end of a glorious era, the days of burlesque comedy and vaudeville.

For all the generations who have grown up in Quebec since the time she began her career in 1916, the mere mention of "La Poune" was enough to set them off in gales of laughter.

This woman was a symbol of humility and simplicity, and all those who have had the pleasure of working with her agree that, for her, there was nothing in the world more important than making people laugh.

Rose Ouellette, "La Poune", is no longer with us, but she will live on in the memory of each of us, reminding us that humour and cheerfulness are the secrets of a long life.

Quebec Referendum

[Beryl Gaffney, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, following the Quebec referendum on sovereignty in October 1995, 48 students attending Bishop's University in Lennoxville, Quebec were charged with electoral fraud.

Included in the list of individual charges on May 27, 1996, are six students from Nepean. Their fine if paid without contesting is $516.

Students choosing not to pay the fine are assumed to be pleading not guilty and will have to appear in court. The charges appear to arise from the definition of domicile.

These students took the appropriate steps to question the enumerators to ensure they were voting lawfully and the enumerators assured them they were. These students did what everyone else in the rest of the country wished they could do, fight to keep Canada united and exercise their patriotism at a critical time.

A trust fund has been established to assist in recovering the legal costs of fighting the charges in court. Anyone wishing to contribute to the trust fund may call my office for further information.

Temagami

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, at a time when there is great concern about protecting biodiversity, vanishing old growth forests and sustainable development, the Ontario government has given the go ahead to log and mine the Temagami wilderness region.

Over the past six years a planning council composed of Temagami aboriginal people and residents developed a comprehensive

land use plan allowing for both the conservation of wilderness and development in Temagami.

The Harris government chose to ignore their recommendations, leaving us with social unrest, discontent and chaos in the planning process. The Ontario government decision should be reversed.

Temagami is a unique environmental jewel, not a warehouse for liquidation.

Death Of Lucille Teasdale

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today I would like to pay tribute to Dr. Lucille Teasdale, who died of AIDS related complications on August 1. It was during my training as a nurse that I had the opportunity to work with this extraordinary woman.

In a profession that was then an almost exclusively male preserve, Lucille Teasdale, one of the first female surgeons in Canada, earned the respect and admiration of her colleagues.

In the early 1960s, she founded a hospital in Uganda with her husband, Dr. Pietro Corti. Despite threats, fear and the war, she continued for 34 years to provide care with devotion and skill. In 1985, as the result of cutting herself during surgery, she became seropositive. Nonetheless, she continued her work until the end.

She gave her life to relieve the suffering and misery of her African compatriots. Her unbeatable tenacity, her exceptional discipline and her courage made Lucille Teasdale a great Quebecer and we thank her.

Canadian Wheat Board

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, when Reformers asked the minister of agriculture what he would do to improve the operations and accountability of the Canadian Wheat Board, the minister always dodged the question by saying wait for the report of his hand picked western grain marketing panel. Now this same minister ignores its recommendations. Why?

In the ag minister's recent open letter to farmers he said that it is the quality of the support that he is considering more than the quantity. Read his lips. His opinions will take priority over the opinions of the majority of farmers. If the marketing panel's unanimous report is not a quality report, what else could possibly be good enough? Why did he even commission the panel of experts?

The minister tries to excuse his inaction by saying this is a dispute between groups of farmers. Wrong. He is the one who has created and fuelled the division.

Who should control the Canadian Wheat Board, prairie farmers or the minister and his bureaucrats? The minister's own weakness, indecisiveness and lack of action for the past three years is going to destroy a valuable marketing tool for western farmers.

What about the broken election promise for a plebiscite?

Mr. Richard Le Hir

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am seriously beginning to believe there is some truth to the old saying about not being able to see the forest for the trees. Or at least so we might think when we hear what Richard Le Hir, former PQ minister responsible for restructuring and propaganda, has been saying.

Mr. Le Hir stated that, after the last referendum defeat, Lucien Bouchard's PQ government can no longer legitimately promote its sovereignty plan. He said, and I quote: "The winners have the right to live without the threat of a gun being constantly held to their head".

This time, Richard Le Hir did not need a new series of studies and reports to understand where Quebec's real interest lies. All that was needed was for his PQ colleagues to cut down the tree to which he had chained himself.

The Action Démocratique Du Québec

[Raymond Lavigne, Liberal, Verdun—Saint-Paul, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Action Démocratique du Québec has just distanced himself radically from his ex-partner, Lucien Bouchard.

Mario Dumont has just asked Quebec's PQ premier for a respite of at least ten years on the constitutional question and sovereignty. He said that Quebecers need time out in order to gather their strength behind a common objective, that of employment.

Mr. Dumont, who now defines himself as a Quebec nationalist, has just discovered what we have been telling the members of the official opposition all along. The issue of Quebec's separation is divisive for Quebecers and is harmful to job creation.

When will the members of the Bloc Quebecois finally get this through their heads?

Cjvr Melfort

[Georgette Sheridan, Liberal, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to CJVR Melfort, the 1996 Canadian country music station of the year in the secondary market class.

Chosen from over 100 other applications, CJVR excelled in all categories, particularly for its community involvement in helping with the 1996 Royal Bank Cup for its promotion of Canadian country music by hosting "Saskatchewan Country Sunday".

General Manager Gary Fitz attributes CJVR's success to its 24 member staff, a hard working, cohesive team of dedicated professionals with deep ties to the station and commitment to their community.

CJVR is getting used to the winner's circle, having been named the Saskatchewan Country Music Station's radio station of the year in 1995.

Today I offer my congratulations to Gary, Brent and all the rest of the superstar staff at CJVR.

Job Creation

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the infrastructures program is the only job creation measure introduced by this government.

The program has had an immediate and positive impact, although the jobs were only temporary. With respect to setting up a new program, the Government of Quebec has already made it clear that it would like to have responsibility for the projects and have the option of using money already budgeted or targeted for these job creation programs.

My question is directed to the Prime Minister. Could he tell us whether he and his government agree with the concerns expressed by the Government of Quebec with respect to setting up a new infrastructures program?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, at the conference we had with the provincial governments in June, I discussed with the premiers the possibility of continuing the infrastructures program next year.

Since then, the federal Minister of Finance has met his provincial colleagues or will be meeting them to discuss what should be done to ensure we get results. We do not want this to be a substitute for normal expenditures by municipalities.

Furthermore, the minister directly responsible for the infrastructures program, the President of the Treasury Board, has met the municipal affairs ministers. I think progress is being made. In fact, I made the offer myself in June, and at the time, a number of premiers took a negative position. It seems they may have changed their minds during the summer.

The ministers are working on this, and we hope to be able to find common ground.