Debates of Sept. 23rd, 1996

Irving Whale

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, please do not use the name of any member of Parliament in the House.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I also express my appreciation to the fishermen, some of whom have since passed on, and to all those who have over the past 26 years never wavered in their determination to see that the potential environmental disaster posed by the Irving Whale was removed. This was the largest salvage operation to ever take place in Canadian waters and all those involved should be proud of a job well done. Congratulations.

Federal Public Servants

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Vaudreuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, federal public servants working in Quebec are again seeing what price those who do not share the PQ's separatist obsession have to pay.

We all recall that, in the last election campaign, the separatists promised that all federal employees in Quebec would have jobs should Quebec become independent. After the majority voted no in the last referendum, federal public servants are now being told that, if and when there is another referendum, they should go and see the federal government if they want to keep their jobs.

How do you like that? The PQ and BQ want Quebec to separate from Canada but would have the Canadian government keep federal employees living in Quebec on its payroll after Quebec becomes independent. Federal employees have seen through the separatists' little game. Next time, an even stronger majority will vote no.

The Department Of Human Resource Development

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec-Est, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the quality of the French language used at Human Resources Development Canada's National Job Bank site on the Internet is poor, to say the least. Mistakes are attributable mainly to bad, literal translation.

Clearly, the St. Thomas CEC in Toronto, given the job of updating this Internet site, uses an automated translation program instead of hiring an experienced translator to do the job. Let me give you two examples that speak for themselves. In a job offer for a translation position-how ironic-"log house" became "maison de bûche". Another gem, while the correct expression is "connaissance de l'informatique requise", the text reads "avoir ordinateur opération d'aptitudes".

Whatever happened to the genius of the French language? Such mistakes are a disgrace and show an obvious lack of respect for francophones across the country.

Liberal Party

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on Saturday night the Liberal Party unveiled a new party poster in Quebec City depicting their opposition parties on an evolutionary scale with Reform at the bottom of the chain.

It is curious that these posters were unveiled at a time when the Prime Minister was delivering a speech on tolerance and respect.

It seems the Liberals have little tolerance for opposing viewpoints and no respect for the two million Canadians who voted Reform in the last election.

During the 1993 federal election the Tory party ran a disgusting TV ad which made a personal attack on the appearance of the Prime Minister. Reformers joined millions of Canadians in denouncing this sleazy Tory tactic. Now it appears that the Liberals are stooping to the very same sleazy Tory tactics.

Are the Liberals afraid that Reform will become the voters' natural selection come the next election? Or does the Liberal Party's notion of tolerance and respect apply only to those Canadians who vote Liberal?

The Mouvement De Libération Nationale Du Québec

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the separatist movement has long been associated with groups and individuals who promote segregation, racism and intolerance.

In today's Gazette , Raymond Villeneuve, president of the Mouvement du libération nationale du Québec openly attacked the Jewish community of Quebec. He stated: ``If there is trouble after Quebec becomes independent, nationalists will remember who was against them''.

I appeal directly to the leader of the official opposition to publicly and strongly condemn these racist and violent comments, which have no place in our society.

Separatists want Quebec to believe that they are not racist and not exclusionist yet their leaders do not denounce people like Mr. Villeneuve. As a Quebecer I am insulted. As a member of the cultural communities I am insulted.

When will they realize that we are just as much a part of this society and this province as they are?

Goods And Services Tax

[Daphne Jennings, Reform, Mission—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, during the last election campaign Liberal candidates across the country promised to abolish the GST, with the Prime Minister promising to remove the GST tax on books.

The Deputy Prime Minister also said during the 1993 campaign: "Food isn't subject to the GST because it's a necessity. So are books. They are needed for young minds to grow".

As literacy critic I must say research shows that jobs, crime prevention and better health and safety are linked to literacy and the greatest single factor in the development of literacy skills is the presence of reading materials in the home.

Both the Conservatives and the Liberals are guilty of bringing in the GST on books and leaving the 7 per cent GST on reading materials. Now with the Liberal harmonization, the finance minister will deal a crippling blow to the least affluent citizens of the Atlantic region by forcing them to pay a full 15 per cent on reading materials.

The minister bragged last week about increasing educational credits for students. How does that help when the students will not be able to pay for their books? When is this government going to live up to its election promises and remove the tax on reading?

The Canadian Armed Forces

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, last weekend, two other generals broke the wall of silence and added their voices to those of the military who challenge General Boyle's leadership.

Generals Vernon and MacKenzie had very harsh words for the Chief of Staff. The fact is that, in spite of the efforts made by the Prime Minister and his defence minister to plug the holes, the ship is taking on water everywhere.

Given the new and very harsh criticisms that were levelled not only at General Boyle, but also at the Prime Minister, who is accused of not being loyal to the armed forces, will the Prime Minister agree that it is urgent and necessary to review his position and to personally intervene to settle the leadership problem that exists at DND and at the head of the Canadian Armed Forces?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the mark of a democratic society is that individuals are free to criticize the government. It is not unusual for governments to be criticized by former politicians. I have to say that one of the many blessings I have as Minister of National Defence is that from time to time many former members of the armed forces pop up and make certain contributions to public debate.

Generally those contributions are constructive. In some cases they are critical. That is the right of those individuals. In some cases they are uncomfortable with the direction in which we are taking the armed forces. In other cases it is to set the record straight and to put their own time in office in a certain light with respect to posterity.

This is quite normal in a democracy and it certainly does not shake our resolve to continue the course that we have embarked on.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, these are not ordinary citizens taking part in a debate. We are talking about generals, the highest ranked officers in the Canadian army, who, as soon as they leave the military, express their feeling of helplessness over the lack of leadership in the forces.

The minister can talk about a public debate in our great society, but what is truly extraordinary is to have an army with no leader and no minister. It appears that, in some cases, soldiers are now ashamed to wear their uniform, because of the lack of leadership at the national defence department. On August 29, General Boyle said in the Globe and Mail that he would resign if his leadership was questioned.

Could the defence minister tell General Boyle on our behalf that his original statement on his leadership was far preferable to his present desperate attempt to hang on to his job as Chief of Staff, when he no longer has credibility? Could the minister convey the message to General Boyle?

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, in the House, members must always address the Speaker and not one another.

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I can understand your confusion between the hon. member and me in the way we look. I can say that we share fundamentally different convictions about the country and about the direction of the armed forces.

I am quite surprised by what the hon. member has said. Somehow he has elevated the position of a general officer retired

from the armed forces into some privileged position within Canadian society. Well, I have news for him. We are all equals in Canadian society, whether we are ex-generals, plumbers or carpenters. We all have the right to take part in the democratic process and express our views.

The hon. member sat through the questioning last week. He did not take part in it. I think he understands the process. It is a process which he supported, and the former Bloc leader, now the premier of Quebec, supported when he was in the House, which is to have an open, independent inquiry so that all the issues can be heard and that no individual, no circumstances should be judged in isolation.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, last week the Prime Minister spoke of the major job of making cuts and reorganizing the Armed Forces, which his Minister of Defence and chief of defence staff had ahead of them.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. I cannot ask it of the Minister of Defence, for he is protecting himself now. Will the Prime Minister admit that such cutbacks and reorganization require total credibility and that, under the present circumstances, neither the Minister of Defence nor General Boyle inspire sufficient confidence among military personnel to acquit themselves of this important task? Could the Deputy Minister respond?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it would be useful if the hon. member were to talk to his colleague, the hon. member for Rimouski-Témiscouata. Last week on RDI she said that the armed forces were in need of a good house cleaning. I believe those were her words; I do not have the French translation.

I believe she said that the Canadian Forces needed a good housecleaning, and that Mr. Collenette-pardon me for using my name-was the one who needed to do it.

In other words his own colleague two seats away expressed confidence in me and I am very grateful to continue with the work I am doing.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Last week, the Prime Minister attempted to make light of what General Clive Addy had to say by describing it as the words of a frustrated individual, who was not pleased at having been forced to leave the Army and was therefore criticizing the Armed Forces. Now it is General Lewis Mackenzie's turn to question the leadership of the Armed Forces, and even the loyalty of the Prime Minister, by saying: "He is very

loyal to his staff, which I find admirable, but he ought to be equally loyal to the Army."

How can the Deputy Prime Minister again ignore the extremely harsh criticisms of the Prime Minister being made by other retired generals?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to be preoccupied with the remarks of former officers of the Canadian Armed Forces. What I am concerned with are the views and opinions of serving officers of the armed forces. I met with the leadership last week and despite the problems, despite all of the things that are going on that make them feel rather bad and which are bad for the institution, they are solid in their support and they want to continue forward.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to General MacKenzie, they are so proud they are afraid to wear their headgear when driving. That is the situation.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. How can the government continue to play down what is going on, when never in the history of the armed forces have we seen so much questioning of and dissatisfaction with a chief of staff, whom the minister keeps defending?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, one of Canada's prominent historians, Desmond Morton, said some time ago on a radio program that there are always problems with peacetime armies.

What we are facing in Canada is not unlike what our allies are facing. I raised this last week. It happened also after the second world war. When there is a massive demobilization of resources and personnel, it creates a lot of disquiet among the ranks. After all, the military is a very hierarchical and very authoritarian organization and when rapid change is thrust upon it, it makes it very difficult for the institution to accept.

However, I have to say that after nearly three years in the job, I am impressed with the men and women of the armed forces and what they have done to accommodate the changes, to accommodate the budget cuts, the reduction of personnel and the introduction of private sector methods in terms of purchasing. All of that they have done in an exemplary fashion.

I would only hope that hon. members opposite could focus on the good things the men and women of the armed forces have done and not on the negative things.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister talks about what a great job the military troops are doing. I say that is absolutely true, but it is in spite of his leadership, not because of it.

The minister also just said that he would like to hear from serving officers. The truth is that these people are afraid to talk. Only when there is safety in retirement do people like Major-Generals Brian Vernon and Lewis MacKenzie say things like: "Jean Boyle has lost the trust of his troops and should resign. He is not credible to those who are serving this country. Soldiers are embarrassed to wear their uniforms in public". What a sad day it is when we see soldiers and troops who are absolutely ashamed to drive around in their vehicles in their uniforms.

My question to the defence minister is this, and I will give him a hint that this is no riddle: Just how many major-generals does it take to get the defence minister to do the honourable thing and fire Jean Boyle?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I forget my lines from Gilbert and Sullivan, but if I could recite them I am sure the hon. member would have a place in them.

The deputy critic of the Reform Party on the weekend on CBC said: "I do not wish to convict General Boyle. I would like to see him out of the seat right now because I think he is doing tremendous damage to the forces". What the hon. deputy critic said was that he was asking for removal, not for dismissal.

Again, we have two separate points of view from members of the Reform Party. The hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands, who is not here today, went on to say-

[Some hon. members]

Shame.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Beaver River.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yes, my colleague did say that the very least Jean Boyle could do out of a sense of honour would be to step aside and if he is proven innocent, then that is fine and he can return to his job. There is certainly no shame in saying that.

Lewis Mackenzie hit the nail right on the head this weekend again when he spoke out. I always listen to guys named Lew; believe me, I know it is safe. He said that the Prime Minister and the defence minister were putting stubborn political pride before their duty to the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Rank and file soldiers feel tainted by the Somalia scandal because the Liberal government has failed to do the right thing, the honourable thing, and ask Jean Boyle to resign.

I ask the minister, or perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister: Why are they sacrificing their duty to the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces to protect their pitiful political pride?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. member allowed me the occasion to find another citation from the deputy critic of the Reform Party. He said: "There is a whole bunch of excellent people in the armed forces. Super people and good leaders as well. Unhappily, the tar or the mud that is being flung at the top is floating down and sticking to some of these people". Who is flinging the tar and the mud? It is the opposition.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the only people who are flinging mud right now are those people who have served in the armed forces and know full well what is going on there and what the morale has stooped to.

Jean Boyle can no longer lead the Canadian Armed Forces. It is as simple as that and I do not know why he cannot get it through his head. By blaming his subordinates, Boyle has lost the confidence of his troops. The Prime Minister and the defence minister are no better. These big boys prefer to puff out their chests in some macho defence of General Boyle instead of simply admitting they were wrong.

I ask the minister one more time, will he just forget about his political pride, his political record of not firing people? Will he just put aside this political huffing and puffing once and for all, admit he was wrong and fire Jean Boyle?