House of Commons Hansard #19 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was fishery.

Topics

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Yes, the Tory leader has a selective memory.

That is four or five disasters. Let's go to another one. It is what we commonly refer to on the east coast as the Greenland halibut disaster.

When the codfish were disappearing the Government of Canada came into this chamber and announced the great find of the century. It was called an underutilized species. It was identified as a Greenland halibut. The government announced that there was so much of this Greenland halibut that it was going to allow foreigners to catch it.

The fishermen in the maritimes and Quebec were wondering what the Greenland halibut was until they saw a picture of it. The picture showed a flat fish called Greenland halibut, commonly referred to as blue halibut in Britain, black halibut in Germany, and a hellefisk in Denmark. Here it was with one of the eyes up this way and the other eye halfway around looking like a Cyclops and the fishermen said “Ah, that is a Newfoundland turbot”.

That turbot that was classified in 1991 by the very government of the leader of the Tory party became the catch-all for foreign nations. That fish was, it just so happens, the mainstay of the fishermen of eastern Canada.

In the early spring all of our fishermen would go out in the trap boat fishery for cod and then in the summer they would switch to turbot. And the great Canadian government here in Ottawa made the decision that there was so much of this species that now foreign nations could catch it. That was the year 1991.

Was it the Liberals who were in power in 1991? Who was in power in 1991? The Tories were in power, the very party that has moved this motion before the House of Commons today. The mistakes continued until the year 1992. It is a great thing that in 1993 the Liberal Party was elected so that we could try to clean up the mess.

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4:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

John Herron Progressive Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Madam Speaker, I was very interested in the comments made by the hon. member. I know that he is an individual who is deeply concerned for the welfare of all Atlantic Canadians.

As a fellow Atlantic Canadian I also understand the tragedies that the families in Atlantic Canada and in British Columbia for that matter have actually undergone over the collapse of the fishery, particularly with respect to groundfish.

I do not even live in a riding that actually has groundfish to speak of. However it does not take very long for us to realize and contact some of our friends and our families who have actually ended up leaving Atlantic Canada for other places.

I think it is important for us to recognize the real issue here. It is not necessarily a matter of which government was in power at this point. It is not a matter of which government was in power before us. I know the hon. member understands this is an issue that has to be addressed today. The solutions that we need are solutions that we need today for the future of all Atlantic Canadians. I know the hon. member respects that comment. The motion before us today is to discuss constructive solutions about the future of Atlantic Canadians.

I know the hon. member was sincere in terms of not making this a partisan issue. He has spoken often with respect to the fishery in Newfoundland. I know he is a very respected member in Newfoundland. This is an issue in which we are trying by this motion to ensure that we can find solutions in terms of helping these families who are desperately in need. That is the issue.

I will point to my colleagues on this side of the House as well. I know it is in everybody's interest from time to time to make political hay in terms of who was in government. But the issue in play is that we need to find solutions for the families who are hurting.

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4:45 p.m.

Liberal

George Baker Liberal Gander—Grand Falls, NL

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's comments but I simply brought forth these examples because the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party during his speech had laid blame.

Even today we are left in Canada with the decisions that governments made years ago. Today a blue fin tuna would get you about $30,000 yet we entered into agreements years ago during the period of time I was talking about in which another nation has five times the quota of the hon. member's riding for blue fin tuna inside the Canadian zone.

We have a ridiculous situation which again is a leftover from the early nineties. We have to slowly try to get out of these agreements because it is difficult to break them immediately. There were 11 Cuban trawlers off the hon. member's riding in Nova Scotia a couple of weeks ago. One of them had a national quota inside Canada's zone. The other 10 were hired by Canadian companies while our fishermen sit ashore with nothing to do.

The bottom line is that we have to try to correct the mistakes of the past. That is exactly what the Government of Canada is trying to do and what we are trying to do as a standing committee with members from each side of the Chamber. I think everybody is operating in unison to try to find the solutions just as the Government of Canada is trying to do.

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4:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The hon. member for Vancouver East on debate.

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4:50 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time.

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4:50 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform Vancouver Island North, BC

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

I would like to once again return to this whole question of the amendment that has been put forward by the Liberals on this opposition motion. I would like to refer to section 566 of Beauchesne's.

I think these amendments should be posed in such a way that they are more acceptable to the House of Commons. How can that be when the very amendment that has been put forward by the Liberal government which talks about calling upon the government changes “establish” to “continue the implementation of a comprehensive national fisheries policy that demonstrates real commitment to resource conservation”.

My point is that just last week the auditor general in his report said very clearly that the department has stated that its mandate is conservation of this fishery resource base and that is implied in current legislation. Nevertheless we found—

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4:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The motion has already been accepted by the Chair. At this time it is too late to go into debate any longer so we will resume.

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4:50 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

My colleague is attempting to make a point on the relevance of an amendment in this House. I would like to refer you to parliamentary rules on amendments, Beauchesne's citations 567 and 568. The point my colleague is making is that there is a substantive change in the motion that was put forward by the Conservatives, and the fact that the Conservative motion is attempting to establish—

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4:50 p.m.

An hon. member

Point of order, Madam Speaker.

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4:50 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, I have the floor.

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4:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The hon. member for Malpeque.

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4:50 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Speaker, the point of order of the member opposite is out of order. The Speaker has already ruled. It is as simple as that.

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4:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

You are quite correct so please carry on.

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4:50 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, I will now attempt to make my point. Citation 567 of Beauchesne's says this with regard to amendments:

The object of an amendment may be either to modify a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability or to present to the House a different proposition as an alternative to the original question.

Citation 568 states: “It is an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed”.

The fact of the matter is the amendment that the government put forward on the Conservative motion changes that motion substantially. The Conservatives are attempting to establish and the Liberal government is insinuating that there is an established process and it wants it to be continued. That is substantially different.

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4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Madam Speaker, the member opposite is trying to debate an issue that was decided on long ago by the Speaker. It is a judgment call and we maintain on this side that the amendment is in order. The Speaker has ruled that way and I believe that you should stand by that ruling.

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4:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Madam Speaker, I commend my friend for bringing this to the floor of the House. This is new information. He has made a specific reference to Beauchesne. I would encourage the Chair to take this under consideration. It is not a revisitation of the same point of order. I would encourage the Chair to render the decision according to the new information which has been provided by the hon. House leader.

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4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Madam Speaker, there is a longstanding tradition in this House that when the Chair makes a ruling, there is no appeal to that ruling. In the best parliamentary tradition notwithstanding the interests of the parties opposite to, I would simply say, expand the negative on the amendment by using the word, and I believe the word was “implement”, but that is secondary. The principle that has to be maintained, defended and upheld is that of the Chair making a ruling and having the final decision. There is no appeal to that ruling.

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4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The time for making that objection has passed. The Chair has already ruled on this and it is time to resume debate.

The hon. member for Vancouver East.

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4:55 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

It was very interesting to hear the history lesson by the government member from Gander, Newfoundland. However, it is very curious that his history only went up until 1993. What we are concerned about today is what is happening in terms of our fisheries on the east coast and the west coast.

Pacific salmon stocks have been depleted to crisis proportions. The impact that this depletion has had on the environment and on the lives of west coast fishers and their families and on coastal communities has been devastating.

Not only has the federal government refused to support B.C. fishers against the tide of American commercial exploitation of the fisheries, but it has taken action that has devastated coastal communities and small and independent fishers and their families.

In my constituency of Vancouver East, many of my constituents are reeling from the government's utter lack of commitment to the Pacific fishery. There are 10,000 commercial fishers and 6,400 shore workers in B.C. who depend on salmon for their livelihoods. The average annual wholesale value of the salmon harvest in B.C. is approximately $500 million. The Americans are overfishing the Canadian salmon and the cost to all Canadians is $60 million a year. That means that four million fish are being illegally harvested by the Americans.

The basic problem is that the U.S. is ignoring the terms of the Pacific salmon treaty originally signed in 1985 and under renegotiation since 1995. Instead of respecting the principle that salmon belong to the country of origin, Alaskan fishers are stealing Canadian sockeye salmon returning to spawn in Canadian waters where they were born. As they pass through Alaskan waters American fishers are taking four or five times more sockeye than they are entitled to under the terms of the treaty.

Even more recently, the U.S. has been aggressively overfishing the early run of salmon heading up the Fraser River in the south.

Despite the devastating effect of this overfishing on the west coast and the blatant disregard that the Americans have shown Canadian sovereignty, the federal government has done little to change this situation. In fact, the plan that the federal government has put in place is woefully inadequate.

If anything it does more to hurt the majority of B.C. fishers than help them, indeed the Mifflin plan named after the former Liberal fisheries minister actually punishes Canadians because it forces B.C. fishers to choose one specific zone to fish and allows licence staffing.

The Mifflin plan has been an ecological and sociological disaster. Internationally it has been proven that fisheries work when they are community based. However, what is the federal government doing? The federal government has undercut the community in favour of mega-companies that care more for the bottom line than for the preservation of our environment and our coastal communities. It edges out the fishers who live and work and raise their families in these communities and who have a real vested interest in the preservation of salmon stocks.

Simply put, the Mifflin plan has been a disaster in Atlantic Canada. It has been a disaster in western Canada and it has been a disaster for all of Canada. Even the promises that have been made about transitional funds have been a disaster.

The federal government had promised $30 million to the transitional funds for community fisheries development program. In a meeting with the president of the fishers union in B.C., Mr. John Radosevic, I was told that the people involved in that transitional plan are still waiting to have an answer from the federal government as to whether there will be multi-year funding.

My colleague, the member for Burnaby—Douglas, who is the critic for the west coast fisheries for our party, raised this in the House on October 1. What did the minister say? He said be patient.

The fishers of the west coast and the east coast have been more than patient. They have been waiting to see if this government will put an action plan into place to ensure there is preservation.

The only real leadership that we have seen in dealing with the west coast fisheries crisis has come from the premier of British Columbia and from many other people in my home province who clearly recognize that the time has come to take a stand. Premier Clark has been making tough decisions and what has the response of the federal government been? When the premier of B.C. moved to cancel the sea bed lease at Nanoose, did the federal government move to support B.C. efforts? No. The federal government is now suing the B.C. government and claiming that B.C. does not have the power to cancel the sea bed lease.

I can tell the House that the federal NDP has long held the position that Nanoose should be closed as a sea bed testing range for U.S. submarines. Why? It is a relic of the cold war and an environmental hazard. My colleague, the member for Burnaby—Douglas, tabled a motion on this precise issue in the House on September 23.

Second, when Mr. Clark initiated legal action against Alaska and Washington to enforce the terms of the treaty, the federal government refused to support the action and went even further and undermined the B.C. position by releasing legal opinions.

In a more recent development, when the U.S. Congress recently held congressional hearings on the issue, the federal government refused to send government representatives. So Canada's position was not at those hearings.

The leader of the NDP raised this issue in the House on September 25. Now there is real concern that the U.S. may walk away from the treaty altogether. Clearly the federal government has to do everything in its power to prevent this from happening because chaos will ensue.

The present fisheries minister, a British Columbian who we had hoped would take tough action, has done little to ease the burden of west coast fishers. By contrast, the minister did not even meet with B.C. fishermen until they had been driven out of frustration and need to take desperate measures in blocking the passage of an American passenger ferry. Even then, I am sure that the minister was persuaded more by American reaction than he was by Canadian desperation.

A recent provincial public opinion polls shows that the majority of British Columbians support the strong actions taken by our provincial government to achieve a fair and workable Pacific salmon treaty. Why will the federal government not do the same?

The Liberals say that they want to address westerners' feelings of alienation, but when push comes to shove they continue to ignore western concerns.

It is not good enough for the finance minister to attend a meeting on the west coast as he did last week and say “we are addressing your concerns”. Instead of spending his time publicly bashing the premier of B.C. as he did in the House of Commons, the minister of fisheries should be trying to emulate the tough stand that our premier has taken on behalf of B.C. fishers and coastal communities. The only real action that the federal Liberals have taken is to appoint someone to monitor the situation.

New Democrats have stood up in the House and will continue to stand up in the House to fight for the survival of coastal communities and sustainable jobs and a healthy fishery. We believe this must be the primary goal of the federal fisheries policy. The most important step toward achieving this goal is to genuinely share the control of the fishery with the women and men in the coastal communities that catch the fish.

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5:05 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Speaker, I stand in amazement at what I have just heard.

The member said we are not doing enough to achieve a fair and workable fisheries treaty. That is in fact what we are doing. This debate is about trying to make suggestions and all we heard from this member was some political rhetoric and an attack on the minister of fisheries.

To set the member straight I will outline it again, as I have done many times. Nothing can be learned in the House if members do not listen. Obviously members of the NDP are less interested in listening and more interested in trying to protect the premier of British Columbia in terms of some of the errors he has made in terms of our trying to achieve a fair and equitable treaty with the U.S.

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5:05 p.m.

An hon. member

Protect Canadians.

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5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

We are. Maybe the member was not present earlier today when the minister spoke in response to a question.

He clearly said that he has worked as strongly in Canada's interest in establishing the fishery treaty. The fact of the matter is that a task force was called to explore possible measures on July 19. The minister met with Premier Clark, as well as Minister Eggleton in Vancouver. Minister Anderson met with those in the blockade to try and remove that problem. The task force reported to the minister. Minister Anderson met with the senators of Alaska, Oregon and Washington State.

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5:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order. I urge the parliamentary secretary to refer to ministers by their title and not by name.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, my mistake. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans met, as I said, with the senators of Alaska, Oregon and Washington state, with Secretary Daly and senior state departmental officials in Washington, with fisheries and environmental organizations, with Governor Knowles of Alaska, and the list goes on and on.

As we already know, this strong pressure from Canada goes right up to the prime minister. We have appointed special representatives who will report to the prime minister and to the president on this issue. The minister and the government have been fully engaged in efforts to resolve the Pacific salmon treaty dispute, doing everything we can within our power while the members opposite want to talk about political rhetoric. It amazes me.

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5:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments and I agree that it is important to listen.

I invite the member to British Columbia so he can hear firsthand and listen to the concerns of fishers in coastal communities who feel they have been abandoned by the federal government. When the member says that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has been fully engaged, fully engaged in what? Certainly not in defending the interests of fishers in B.C. and supporting the Government of British Columbia which has been standing up for the fishers.

The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has been engaged in soft peddling this issue. Yes, it is important to listen. It is important to listen to the people who are directly affected by the lack of a national fisheries program. That is what this issue is about.