Debates of Oct. 29th, 1997

Environment

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, they need to get their story straight. It seems as though the prime minister is more concerned about looking like a big time operator overseas than developing a made in Canada workable solution.

He brags about how he will beat Bill Clinton at whatever he does. Surely that is not the first priority of the government.

Why are the minister and the prime minister more concerned about winning a little ego war with Bill Clinton than listening to Canadians? Whose deal is this anyhow?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have explained to everybody the position of the Canadian government.

We on this side of the House think it is important to consult with the provinces and the stakeholders. I can see now that members of the Reform Party do not want us to talk with the Alberta government or the Saskatchewan government. They do not want us to talk with environmental groups. They do not want us to talk with anybody.

As usual we will have a good and reasonable Canadian position that will be completely acceptable to the Canadian people.

Penitentiaries

[Allan Kerpan, Reform, Blackstrap, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the solicitor general, so I will speak very slowly.

We have the minutes of a meeting of the inmate committee of the Joyceville Penitentiary. We showed the minister a copy of this document last week. The minutes show that the assistant deputy warden is actually setting up a payment plan so prisoners can pay off illegal drug debts. Last week the minister said this was bad, and that is good.

What is he going to do about it?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as usual the member is not accurate.

[Allan Kerpan, Reform, Blackstrap, SK]

Mr. Speaker, here is another example of this minister's benevolence to help ease the financial burden of convicted criminals. This one comes from the outside.

According to public accounts released yesterday, the minister's department has lent thousands of dollars to criminals on parole and then his department forgave over $25,000 of these loans. At least somebody is getting out of debt.

I have a question for the temporary minister. Did he know that his department was giving loans to criminals and then not even bothering to collect them?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we have had repeated questions for two or three weeks now, none of them based on fact.

I bring to the attention of the House that there are no tattoo parlours. We are looking for gloves for people. Labour Canada has been in to visit the kitchens in Kingston and there is no problem. The inmates in Kingston do not have keys to their cells.

We cannot take these questions seriously.

Program For Older Worker Adjustment

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, next Saturday the BC mine in Black Lake will close down, leaving 300 workers without jobs. More than a third of these workers are aged 55 and over and their chances of finding other work are extremely slim, given the high unemployment rate in the region.

An application under the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, or POWA, was filed on March 17, 1996, while the government did not terminate the program until March 31, 1997.

Since the active measures the Minister of Human Resources Development is so proud of do not apply in this case, does the minister intend to reactivate the application—

[The Speaker]

The Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with the assumption by the Leader of the Bloc Quebecois that active measures do not apply in this case. I do not think that we should underestimate workers who, over the years, have acquired experience and skills.

I do not underestimate these workers. On the contrary, I think they are still capable of re-entering the job market, and our government has made a perfectly generous and flexible offer with respect to certain active measures to help them in the coming weeks.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of underestimating these workers. I met with them. I, for one, took the trouble to meet with them.

But I remember when the Liberal Party was in opposition and kept on tabling petitions to extend the POWA program. The Minister of Human Resources Development should remember that. He should ask the member for Saint-Léonard to fill him in.

Why will the Minister of Human Resources Development not agree to the offer made by Minister Harel in a letter dated October 6 in which she asks that the POWA program be extended?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the POWA application was withdrawn at the express request of the workers' union, which felt that the program's benefits were not sufficiently generous later on. Let us be reasonable.

On the contrary, what has been proposed until now is an improved POWA program. One of the reasons the program was terminated was that it was very often unfair and inequitable, particularly because it applies only to workers over the age of 55. In the present case, the average age of workers is under 55 and the program would therefore not even apply to most of the workers we are talking about.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Contrary to what they were advocating when they formed the opposition, the Liberals decided last year to eliminate the program for older worker adjustment, or POWA.

Will the minister go beyond fine speeches and formally pledge to do what is necessary to help the victims of the closure of the mine in Black Lake, giving them access to POWA, as Louise Harel, in Quebec City—

[The Speaker]

The Minister of Human Resources Development has the floor.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am meeting with representatives of these workers immediately after question period.

I can tell you, however, that my officials have already met with these people. We put together a $2.5 million package of active measures to help these workers re-enter the labour market. We are committed to being flexible by adjusting these measures to their specific situation. And I believe this is the decent and respectful attitude we must have toward these people right now.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, former minister Young, who led the unemployment insurance reform, had pledged to establish an income support program to replace POWA.

Will the Minister of Human Resources Development follow up on the former minister's commitment by establishing an income support program for older workers or, alternatively, by restoring the original POWA?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned by the plight of older workers. It is a problem that affects a number of our fellow citizens across the country, even though older workers generally fare better than the younger ones who want to join the labour force.

What I do want to point out is that, if we restore programs, these will be fairer than POWA. Under that program, a seamstress losing her job was not entitled to any protection, unless she lost her job as a result of a mass layoff. POWA was too restrictive.

Canada Pension Plan

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Last night in committee the finance minister acknowledged that women are forced to depend disproportionately on benefits they receive from the Canada pension plan.

We know the CPP changes will affect survivors benefits, death benefits and reduce benefits overall by 10%.

Will the minister acknowledge that the cuts to CPP benefits disproportionately affect women? Does the government really believe it is legitimate to penalize women for the fact they live longer than men?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, precisely because women depend on the public pension plans more than do men it is important that we guarantee not only their survival but their success.

Because of that this government along with the provinces put in place a series of measures which will guarantee to Canadians young and old, both men and women, that the public sector pension plan will be there for them.

This was an agreement among all the provinces. The fact is that there were differences with two provinces on certain things, but there were no—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Halifax.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister gave assurances last night that the government conducted a gender impact analysis on the CPP changes.

Now that I have seen the study I can understand why the government was not particularly keen that it see the light of day. It is a narrow actuarial study. It completely fails to measure the real economic and social impact on women of the proposed CPP changes.

How does the study live up to the government's commitment made in Beijing to submit all government initiatives and legislative changes to comprehensive and detailed gender analysis?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the consultation document that went out to the country was agreed to by all provincial governments, including the two NDP governments, as well as by the federal government.

The NDP was at the table for the discussions. All the issues the hon. member raises were extensively discussed. We will continue through track two to deal with a number of issues raised by the federal government. One of the members from Ottawa raised them, as well as a number of provincial governments.

Human Resources Development

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. Last Friday I met in British Columbia with representatives of the Community Fisheries Development Centre, Coastal Communities Network, United Fishermen and Allied Workers Union, and representatives of the north and aboriginal communities.

Essentially they said that the Mifflin plan had been an unmitigated disaster that affected their communities disastrously and that the government had no plan.

When will the human resources development minister come forward with an adjustment plan for coastal communities on the west coast? When exactly will he deliver on that? What amount of money will they put to it?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, if in British Columbia the hon. member had actually bothered to find out what was taking place, he would have discovered a document I am happy to table, namely the report for the first eight months of the employment development program, indeed had $12.5 million of contracts with the department of the hon. minister of human development.

The organizations that make up the body, the Community Fisheries Development Centre, are exactly the same ones that he has referred to today.

In other words he was either—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Sherbrooke.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I doubt I can be misinformed. One of the things they told us is that they could not get a meeting with the minister of fisheries.

Today we learned from Canada's negotiators that the Americans lacked political will to solve the problem of the Pacific salmon treaty. Envoys Ruckelshaus and Strangway are in Ottawa this week, according to the minister of external affairs.

I would like to know from the Prime Minister whether he will give a mandate to the envoys to report to him and President Clinton at the APEC conference when they will have their bilateral so that British Columbians and the coastal communities can finally see some political will exercised by the government to solve this problem.