House of Commons Hansard #36 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was treaty.

Topics

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, the minister has a commitment which will take him away from the House. I wonder if we could seek the unanimous consent of the House to allow the minister two to three minutes maximum to say a few words without being counted as a spokesperson at third reading.

I ask for the unanimous consent of the House to allow the minister to say a few words.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Winnipeg South Centre Manitoba

Liberal

Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I thank the government whip for his intervention.

I want to use this opportunity to express my thanks to members of the Chamber for the way in which the proceedings have taken place today.

If there has been anything which has characterized this movement on land mines, it has been a sense of partnership. No one has ownership of this. It has been a collective effort of NGOs and private citizens, members of the cabinet, the Prime Minister and my colleagues who have taken decisions. I think of my predecessor, Mr. Ouellet, who started the first movement with a moratorium, and decisions made by the former Minister of National Defence to eliminate land mines. I think of members of the opposition who earlier on valiantly presented private members' resolutions to move this House along on this matter.

There is a wide range of people who have been able to rise above many of the more immediate questions to something which has a larger horizon.

I have been in Parliament a long time as many people know and as someone said today, every once in a while we have a fine hour. This is one of our finest hours. I would like to thank all members for making this a day which Canadians will long remember.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Madam Speaker, in the same spirit of co-operation, I wonder if the House would give its consent for the following.

While in the normal course at third reading the government lead spokesperson would have 40 minutes, I propose that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the chair of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale, would each speak for 10 minutes and then we would continue the rotation as is the normal procedure of the House.

I give my undertaking that both the parliamentary secretary and the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale, the chair of the committee, will only speak for 10 minutes each.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Is that agreed?

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time as the House has already been advised with the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale.

This treaty is a significant achievement in its own right. It continues the step by step process of building a peaceful world which began during the cold war, in its more enlightened moments, with the progressive treaties toward nuclear and general disarmament and the cessation of nuclear tests.

It should be noted however that in this treaty there has been a significant innovation and that is the involvement of people who are not normally involved in the treaty making process. Jeremy Bentham once said that the law is not made by judge alone, but by judge and company. The company in this case includes the non-governmental organizations, and as has been rightly commented by members of the opposition, the late Princess Diana and others. It has been a citizens' movement in which the force of public opinion has carried the momentum to produce a treaty written off as something taking many years, but it has been completed really in 12 months with the ceremony that will take place in Ottawa in December.

We have made history in a certain sense and it will continue. The democratization of foreign affairs and treaty making I am sure will continue because of this significant first step.

A second point I will make, which has already been commented on in this debate, is that this is a short treaty. This is a succinct treaty and a treaty that has teeth. It is something that goes to the gamesmanship of making treaties. There is a way of getting treaties through a diplomatic conference by making them mellow, open ended or vacuous, whatever phrase one would like to use. One can rally an enormous consensus but there is nothing in the treaty.

This is a treaty that has teeth in it. A deliberate decision was made by our government and I think by the NGOs and others participating that it was better to have a treaty that stated something even if it meant that some significant states would be absent from the treaty's signature and ratification. We have pushed ahead on that basis. Some will notice that what started with a relatively small number of countries now has reached over 100 and that is a rather significant achievement in itself.

In Canada treaty making and treaty ratification are the two steps necessary to give international law validity to our signature to a treaty and they are executive acts, as has been noted already. The parliamentary process is limited to adopting the very important implementing legislation but it does not affect the validity of the treaty as international law. However that is not true of all countries and that is why in approaching our own steps in international law making, the signature which will come formally in the next two weeks and the ratification which could be the same day, we have felt it necessary and desirable to press ahead with the treaty implementing legislation.

We want to send a message to other countries where the legislature is involved, the United States as part of its Constitution with the Senate involved, to get their act together. If they are going to take part in the law making, then they must get their legal adhesion to the treaty completed. If it means the signing, ratification and the legislation, get it done as quickly as possible.

I direct attention to what is called the attrition factor in treaty making and the law making of treaties. I cite the famous law of the sea convention to which Canadian diplomats contributed so much. It was to become law when ratified by 60 countries. It was signed in 1982 by 102 countries but it took 14 years to get 60 of those 102 to ratify it and make it law. I could cite the first of the big terrorist control conventions, the Tokyo convention of 1963 on aerial piracy. That was to become law when ratified by 12 countries. It took eight years to get 12 countries.

In our case with this treaty 40 states are necessary to ratify it to give it legal effect. Then it takes effect six months after the 40th instrument of ratification. We would like to complete the whole process beginning to end in a year. That is why the momentum this Parliament is establishing with the consent of all parties is so vital.

There is another matter on which I should comment because I think we are helping consolidate law in the making. That is to say, what is the effect? Some people have said that we have left out some of the principal manufacturers and exporters of land mines. Some who might transfer to other countries are not bound. Is that not a treaty with gaps in it?

Let me simply say that as a matter of international law going back to the dissenting opinion of the greatest of the judges of the International Court of the post-war period, Judge Manfred Lachs, a treaty even when not ratified by a country may become binding on that country simply because of the sheer preponderance of other countries who have ratified. That is to say, it ranks either as customary international law or it ranks in some cases as a superior form of international law, jus cogens. It may be binding on non-ratifiers or non-signatories and in the World Court case concerned it was West Germany. I simply cite that that was an avant-garde opinion in 1969 when it was uttered in the World Court. It is no longer avant-garde and is acquiring an increasing acceptance. We will find that jurists in Canada will be making that argument.

If we can get 100, 120 or 140 countries to sign and ratify, it will be somebody with great temerity who would say we could ignore the treaty provisions.

Let us put it this way. There is an educational value in signing and proclaiming acts of this sort and making them law even for those who do not sign them. Countries are very concerned about their international law image. We are already finding this with countries we have approached to ask if they will join the treaty. They are saying no, but maybe they can regard themselves and say that they will be bound by certain parts of it even though they do not sign and ratify the treaty as a whole.

Here I simply say that the International Court of Justice in its decision in nuclear tests established a principle of law that unilateral declarations of intention to be bound by principle, law, treaty or anything else of that sort can become legally binding entities.

In fact the French government was held bound by a declaration made by its president, Giscard d'Estaing, and its foreign minister even though perhaps at the time they did not realize the significance that was given to it.

We think there is an educational value in going ahead. That is one of the reasons we took this risk. It is better to have a treaty with teeth in it even if it leaves out the United States, China and Russia. It is better to have that than a vague, open ended treaty.

We are relying on the fact that many countries or some countries who have said they cannot for national political reasons sign and ratify the treaty yet say they believe they can adopt certain parts of it. We are going to encourage that.

This is law in the making. Therefore in a second sense the innovation made by bringing in non-governmental people and participatory democracy, we are making new international law. I commend the adoption of this legislation to this House.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Graham Liberal Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the unanimous consent of the House to allow me to share my time with the parliamentary secretary. Although my gratitude is somewhat tempered by the enthusiasm with which the member for Red Deer insisted that it be restricted to 10 minutes, I shall certainly do my best to restrain myself in accordance with his wishes and those of the other members of the House.

This treaty and this legislation we are considering today are the culmination of years of efforts of NGOs spearheaded by Jody Williams and her colleagues in the United States who appeared before our committee recently and were so ably seconded by our government, by the foreign affairs minister and by the Prime Minister. It illustrates as other members of the House have said how we can get things done in today's world in spite of the complexity of today's world. With determination, work and above all co-operation we can bring in results.

Members of this House and humanity as a whole owe a great debt of gratitude to the countless thousands of citizens and NGOs in many countries, governments and international organizations that have worked together on this great enterprise that will culminate here in Ottawa next week.

We have heard a great deal about land mines from the minister and others. We have heard there are 110 million of them in the ground in countries like Bosnia, Laos, Cambodia, Angola, Afghanistan and Kurdistan where their military usefulness may be questioned but where their presence years after they have been put in is taking a toll from the population, women, children, farmers, anyone. They not only create horrible human tragedies of lives lost in ruin but they also inhibit the development of the economies of those countries. Millions of farmers are unable to continue their productive work and live in poverty because they no longer have access to their fields.

Since 1975 there have been over one million casualties around the globe due to anti-personnel mines. As the minister said, last week four members of the foreign affairs committee and four members of the defence committee visited Bosnia. They had the opportunity of visiting with our troops and seeing firsthand the conditions created by the presence of those small objects which are so easy to put in and so costly and dangerous to remove. They are so ingenious in their destructiveness. They are small, some no larger than a hockey puck and are placed in the ground. Some are attached to trees and can be set off by a trip wire to go off at maximum effect at the level of a head or a chest of an innocent person passing by.

We learned of the difficulty and the danger of removing these horribly effective weapons. We met our troops and talked with them, our troops who risk their lives and limbs on a daily basis performing the delicate and dangerous task of removing them. We think at this time of Corporal Mark Isfeld who gave his life in 1994 in this task.

We visited the United Nations Mine Action Centre and learned that it takes 1,000 men one year to clear 10 square kilometres of mines and that at least 100 square kilometres of mines need to be cleared in Bosnia alone at minimum. As there are only 750 present practitioners of that art, it is estimated that some 30 years or more will be required to clear that unfortunate place of the ravages of war. We need only think of the same situation being replicated in Angola, Afghanistan, Laos and other unfortunate places on this globe.

The conditions we saw illustrated the need for other aspects of the treaty, not just a ban on these items but the need for an effective compliance regime and effective mine clearance operations financed on a global scale. To that must be added the need for aid to the victims if humanity's needs are to be served.

We can take pride in the fact that Canada is contributing to all these important goals in places like Bosnia. Referring to the work of our troops, they are removing mines themselves and training others to do the job as well. They are supporting the United Nations de-mining centre. We are contributing through the World Bank and other financial means to the work of that and other centres throughout the world as we are contributing both on a bilateral and multilateral basis.

We are contributing to the rehabilitation of victims. When we were in Bosnia we had the opportunity of visiting the hospital in Sarajevo. We talked with doctors from Queen's University who were training other medical personnel in how to rehabilitate unfortunate victims. We talked to CIDA experts who are doing the same. We talked to our own troops who were in the process of helping to repaint and clean up hospitals which were damaged by war and which will serve the victims of this terrible tragedy.

We know this work is being done elsewhere throughout the world by CIDA and by other Canadian NGOs that operate courageously in far corners of the world under difficult circumstances.

The legislation will implement the treaty and ensure its terms will be enforced in Canada. This is the second agreement of this kind that the House has had to consider recently, the first treaty being the chemical weapons convention. We saw the need to have a universally credible means of ensuring that an agreement of this kind is put in place, is effective and is enforceable throughout many countries.

It is my belief that this is not the last time the House will be called upon to enact similar legislation. It is my belief that in the world in which we live today we will be called upon more and more to do work of this nature to ensure the world in which we live is a safer and a saner place.

The treaty represents something in general to me as it should to members of the House. What lessons can we reflect upon in relation to the issue as Canadians? What does it tell us about our international role in an increasingly interdependent world? Why is Canada, a country with no land mine problem itself, spearheading what will always be known as the Ottawa process?

Canadians believe in the need for our country to be an active participant in the global community, to make sure our values, in particular those of tolerance and compassion which have grown out of our bicultural and pluralistic society, are carried out into the world. To this end we need to work productively with others, with other countries, international institutions, NGOs and individuals to bring people together in a common cause to better humanity. In that sense the treaty and the legislation represent the Canadian goal.

What better example can we follow in the footsteps of Lester Pearson, John Humphrey, Dr. Norman Bethune and many other Canadians who recognize that to live in this world today we must participate fully in it? When we choose to do that we can achieve incredible results.

In conclusion, I would just like to offer a small comment on the nature of our work today and on what has been accomplished by this treaty.

It seems to me that this treaty and the role Canada has been able to play in its preparation, the diplomatic success it represents, is proof yet again of what Canada can achieve as a strong and united country.

I am sure that most members present will agree with me that our strength internationally and our ability to effect change in the world for the well-being of humanity as shown by this treaty gain from the fact that we are a country united from sea to sea and that we bring our collective national experience to the international scene.

This is therefore another lesson we want to draw from this experience, a lesson that will come up increasingly in the future in this heavily interdependent world, a lesson that can be of benefit to all, to the citizens of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia and other provinces of this magnificent country.

We are taking an important step today. Let us build on it together for the benefit not only of all Canadians but of humanity as well.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Reform

Bob Mills Reform Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to stand before the House and speak to Bill C-22. I will try to keep my remarks as brief as possible so that as many speakers as possible can speak to this important piece of legislation.

Just in starting off, as the member for Rosedale said, Canadians are pleased to see that parliamentarians can take issues like this one and through co-operation come up with a solution and move it quickly through the House. Particularly in the area of foreign affairs they want to see that sort of diplomacy being demonstrated even in these premises, something we do not have a lot of, but certainly this is the opportunity for us to do that.

It is my pleasure to congratulate the minister on his co-operation and on his achievement in pushing the matter through and on to the international scene. All this started off in the last House with one of our members putting forward legislation.

I congratulate the NGOs, Jody Williams and all the others who appeared before committee and had so much to do with the legislation.

It serves us well as Canadians that our legislation, the legislation that we are now passing in the House, will be used as an example for some of the other 40-odd countries that have agreed to sign next week. It will hopefully provide motivation for other countries to come on side.

I have to admit that initially I was not very familiar with what mines were all about. I certainly did not realize the significance of them. We saw the map of Bosnia. We saw pink all over the map. We saw how the entire country was covered in mines. We saw people in some of the border towns, perhaps half of the population, who literally did not have an arm, a hand or a leg. That brought it home for all of us as to just how serious the problem was.

We found out that under the bark of trees there could be land mines, and that land mines were not something that were sticking out so that everybody could see but were hidden. They were in bricks with a little hair coming out that could trigger an explosion. They were underneath what appeared to be full coke tins sitting on a table with a plastic explosive underneath it. A young child could come along and grab that tin of coke and be maimed or killed. Then one realizes just how serious the problem was and how it was something that could not be accepted by anyone in the human race.

It was pretty easy for us to say we would co-operate on the issue and that we were proud Canadians to lead an initiative that would have an impact around the world.

There are areas of the legislation where the government has been given power within our country to encroach on some of our rights. However, in looking at it, most of us would agree that is an encroachment we can accept.

We have to be somewhat cautious in being too much of a boy scout when it comes to how we appear internationally. We have to be sure that we are not just talking, that we really mean what we saying and that we really are committed to helping countries de-mine their fields, their riverbeds, their roadways and so on.

It is often easy for us to pass legislation. I think back to when we talked about youth prostitution in foreign countries. I cannot imagine how we would ever enforce that kind of legislation. We feel good passing it and we agree with it but how would we enforce it?

We have talked about the Hague convention, something a subcommittee is working on, and kidnapped kids. All of us realize how emotional and difficult that is. It is easy to say we are against it but it is difficult to do something about it.

I should have mentioned at the start that I will be sharing my time with the member for Calgary East.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. There is a slight problem. The House will have to give its consent to that since the hon. member has a 40-minute slot. Perhaps we could clarify that now. Is there consent for the hon. member to share his time?

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Bob Mills Reform Red Deer, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry for not mentioning that at the outset.

We have to be sure we will put ourselves into the enforcement of the legislation and continue to promote it even though it will be difficult at times.

We also have to talk about the huge problem of de-mining that exists around the world. We have figures like 200 million or 300 million mines being out there. The numbers are huge. We need to help people to help themselves in that area. Our Canadian troops are doing the job by helping children to know where the mines are, to alert the authorities and to actually do something about it. Those are the kinds of commitments that do not cost a lot but are important if we are to rid the world of this serious problem.

We must understand some of the reasons some countries will not sign initially. We heard Mr. Clinton in Vancouver yesterday say that the reason they could not give up land mines was for the protection of their own soldiers. We may or may not agree with that reason, but we need to encourage them to come up with alternatives to the use of regular land mines. There are alternatives. As science progresses I am sure these alternatives will be used by countries like the U.S.

We also have to look at renegade states and their potential use of land mines. I am a firm believer, as I have said in this House many times, that in the 21st century terrorism is probably going to be one of our biggest threats as citizens of this world. Of course we have to be concerned about the presence of land mines, the use of land mines and the use of different types of explosive devices. We could talk about plutonium being sent to Canada from Russia. We could talk about that whole area.

It is important for us to put a diplomatic and organizational pressure on the world which we are in an excellent position to do. I think of our membership in organizations such as the Francophonie, the Commonwealth and APEC. Through those organizations we can bring a lot of pressure to bear on countries to consider signing this treaty and getting rid of land mines.

The point that we need to make in the House is that we are not just going to talk about it. We are not simply going to pass this bill, pat ourselves on the back and move on to something else. We have to be sure that this is an ongoing process and one which will last a long time.

I know that a number of members of the House have experienced firsthand what it means to see people living under the fear of land mines. We in Canada are lucky. When we come back from places like Bosnia, Cambodia or Laos we realize how lucky we are to live in this country. Our children do not have to worry about running out and playing in the field because there are no land mines. Let us never let there be land mines in this country and let us try to remove them from the world.

It is important that we broaden this to look at UN reform. The minister made reference to this. Certainly the streamlining of the UN is something that will help us all to achieve what we want in the 21st century. Changes within the UN are desperately needed. We must work with the NGOs and other countries to make sure they are not so busy fighting turf wars and fighting over what they are going to do that we have this this terrible duplication of services and the terrible bureaucracy which ties up so much of what they do.

I should mention the foreign affairs committee. Many people do not know what we do in that committee. There are several members in the Chamber who are a part of that committee, as well as others. It is important for us to deal with issues such as this and that we deal with current issues that are of concern to the Canadian public. So often we get hung up on writing big reports. The big reports basically end up consuming a lot of time and expertise. They cost a lot of money. Ultimately they end up being put on the shelf.

This is an example of a case where there is an issue that is real. We can put a face on it. It is something which people care about. It is something that the committee can get involved in.

A lot of members have urged the government to make committees relevant. We have urged the government to let the committees deal directly with the minister. We want the committees to talk about the issues, be they slavery in the Sudan, the terrible problems in Nigeria and Iraq, the kidnapping of Canadian children or terrorism. Let us talk about those issues which are real to Canadians and real to members of this House for which we can, hopefully, have the same sort of conclusion as we have seen today.

That is something to work toward. Some of it will be a dream. We have seen this sort of presentation before. We all know about the failures which have happened. However, it is time for us to look at what we are doing and try to make things better.

That is why it is a privilege to stand and to co-operate on the implementation of this piece of legislation.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Reform

Deepak Obhrai Reform Calgary East, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak in support of this bill today.

Bill C-22 is an important bill and I am happy to have this opportunity to share my comments with my colleagues in this House.

I would like to take a moment to express my appreciation for the tireless hours that several individuals have dedicated to this very worthwhile cause.

Internationally the names of this year's Nobel Peace prize recipient, Jody Williams and her organization, and the efforts of the late Princess Diana brought international attention to this cause. I applaud the Nobel Prize committee for recognizing the efforts of Jody Williams and her organization who rightfully deserve the Nobel Peace prize.

Here in Canada there are many individuals and groups such as Mines Action Canada who have taken the initial momentum to work toward an international ban on land mines.

On a more personal note, I applaud my colleague for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca who has worked tirelessly over these past several years in making this an issue on the Canadian stage.

In late 1995 he introduced a private member's bill that called for an international ban on the anti-personnel mines, a bill which was supported by the then Minister of Foreign Affairs. When the current minister came into this portfolio, he too supported this initiative.

I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister of Foreign Affairs for his efforts which began the Ottawa process. This is a proud achievement for Canada. My congratulations go out to all Canadians who participated and made it possible to bring together over 120 countries which will be present in Ottawa next week for the signing of the treaty.

This treaty includes the banning of the use, production, stockpiling and the trade of anti-personnel land mines. It also includes assistance for de-mining and for victims of land mines. This was intended to be a collective disarmament treaty and has several significant humanitarian elements that will not only ban the creation of the land mines but also ban countries from using and trading them.

Canada's exemption will allow it to import, export and possess mines for military training, mine clearing and destruction. Police officers and the RCMP will also have the authority to possess and transfer the mines in the course of their duties to defuse them.

In the event that a country falls under suspicion of violating the treaty, fact finders will be sent by the international community. They will have the powers to search and seize them with or without warrant. Dwelling houses can be inspected with a warrant. Warrants are not required to search military bases and/or warehouse facilities.

This bill comes into effect once given royal assent and also takes effect in all provinces. As I only have 10 minutes on this bill, I will leave most of the technical details of this legislation to those who have spoken before me as well as those who will speak after me, as I agree with most aspects of this bill.

Land mines are a very serious issue in the international arena. The use of anti-personnel mines already violates numerous tenants under international law. Each and every year it is estimated that over 250,000 individuals are at the least maimed and all too often killed by land mines. That works out to one person every 20 minutes. This is a tragic loss. To make it even more tragic is that these losses are often unnecessary.

Without the removal of land mines in post-war areas, many of the land mine victims have died or have been injured unnecessarily. These land mines are currently deployed in over 70 countries, most of them developing countries. Countries such as Afghanistan, Angola, Bosnia, Cambodia, Croatia, Eritrea, Iraq, Mozambique, Somalia, Sudan and Vietnam are all affected. There are approximately 100 million mines that are waiting for their next victim. With the variety of land mines in existence, there are over 350 different types of land mines. The severity of injury can be quite varied.

These losses could have been and, more importantly, should have been prevented. Land mines do not discriminate. They will target any individual who comes into their path. Our brave peacekeepers have paid a heavy price in places like Bosnia. These brave soldiers carry on their duties which bring honour and pride to our nation and are to be saluted for their courageous work in spite of danger to their lives.

It is interesting to note that those who manufacture or order the deployment of land mines themselves are in no danger of losing life or limb to these land mines. It is instead the soldiers that are at risk as well as innocent civilians who ultimately are the victims of this senseless carnage. I often wonder how many politicians or high ranking officials face danger from these land mines.

I take a personal interest in this bill. Coming from Tanzania, which is the northern neighbour of Mozambique, a country which has been devastated by the use of land mines, which has been the result of an internal conflict within that country, from my experiences in my native land, I can see how land mines placed indiscriminately can cause havoc in the civilian population.

In these countries the infrastructure development is concentrated in the urban centres. In the countryside people walk on trails and bush paths going from village to village. Women use these trails to fetch water from rivers and from wells. Children play using these areas, running up and down these trails to meet their friends from neighbouring villages.

When unchecked, the use of these land mines interferes with a society whose primary mode of transportation in the countryside is the time honoured use of two feet. We can, therefore, visualize what terrible deeds these land mines can do. Women, children, elderly people, soldiers all pay a heavy price for the absurdity of men who pursue political agendas.

Those who manufacture such items of horror should be held as responsible as those who place those land mines. It is only fitting. Therefore, we can move forward and stop manufacturing land mines.

There are real economic costs to the production and removal of land mines is estimated at 2 million land mines being deployed every year. When one considers the cost of production for each land mine which runs anywhere from $3 to $70 each, just think what this money could be better spent on. It is estimated that approximately 100,000 mines are removed each year at a cost of approximately $300 to $1,000 each. With these figures there is an estimated cost of approximately $50 billion. Although this figure is enormous, I would argue that this would not compare to the loss of life. It is believed that for every mine removed another 20 are planted.

At the current rate of de-mining, if more land mines were to be placed it would take over 1,000 years to rid the world of these dangerous killers. Getting rid of these mines is not going to be easy.

Besides the sheer time involved in finding these mines, as most mine fields are not mapped out, de-mining is a very dangerous job. It is believed that for every 5,000 mines removed, one person will be killed and another two will suffer injuries.

I could go on and on and read a whole list of statistics and figures, but that does not bring the real issue to the forefront. This is not a financial issue, but an issue of our core moral values.

The contribution that those who were maimed or killed would have made to our society would have far outweighed the so-called economic loss of getting rid of these land mines.

To put it more simply and bluntly, one cannot put a price tag on life. We all have to move forward to ensure that this senseless killing of innocent civilians and soldiers stops.

I would like to note that several key nation states have not yet signed this treaty and I hope they overcome their differences and sign on as well.

For the most part these countries are citing security reasons for using the mines. Yet often the use of these mines is as destructive for the armies that have set up the mines as for the enemies.

We now live in a global village. We are members of one gigantic family. Our efforts should be devoted to promoting harmony and peaceful coexistence. All religions of the world espouse neighbourly love. Wars are destructive, causing loss of precious human life, breaking up families, causing pain.

However, we have a long way to go before we can peacefully coexist. This treaty is the first step toward achieving that goal and it receives my full unconditional support.

In conclusion, I would like to say that while I stand proudly in supporting this bill, I also feel and share the pain of those who were the victims of land mines. To them I say while we may have been late and have let them down, our prayers are that our present and future generations will not suffer the same pain that they have suffered.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Turp Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member for Laval East.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

As I indicated during the speech by the hon. member for Red Deer, since the hon. member had 40 minutes at his disposal, the consent of the House is required for him to divide his time with another member.

Is there unanimous consent?

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Turp Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, the first time I heard about the convention and anti-personnel mines was when I was having discussions with colleagues at the Université libre in Brussels. Professors and students in international law were calling for the elimination of these “instruments of death”, as they were already calling them at the beginning of this decade.

This is an issue that I became involved in, as did everyone who was calling for disarmament, everyone who was following, in Vienna and elsewhere, the conferences organized to bring the international community to abandon the instruments of death such as nuclear arms, smaller arms, mines of all types and especially anti-personnel mines.

However, I still had not seen personally what these instruments of death were until I went with my colleagues in this House to Bosnia-Hercegovina several weeks ago, where we were briefed on several occasions on these mines, on how they operate, on the way they kill and the way they endanger human life. It was a rather moving experience and one that showed how important it was to support the international community's objective of banning the production and use of these mines.

These facts helped me convince the members of our party, the Bloc Quebecois, to support the initiative of the Minister of External Affairs and to ensure that our party would give its support to the convention as it is outlined today in the Canadian legislation.

Increased awareness of this in Canada and abroad issue must not, however, lead us to forget that this convention is an unfinished creation and will undoubtedly remain so. The debate we witnessed today in this House reveals how much we live in a system where democracy has its failings when it comes to signing such a convention and implementing it in domestic law. I would like to take a few minutes to discuss each of these issues.

This convention will most likely be signed by over 100 countries on December 3 and 4. Apparently, some 120 countries will be in Ottawa to sign this convention. But there are 191 countries in the international community and at least 70 states will not be there, 70 states that have not yet committed to eliminating these mines.

And also the states who will be signing the convention will have to become parties to this convention and to ensure that their legislature or their government will ratify or endorse it. Among the states that are still hesitating to support this convention, there are three members of the Security Council, that is the United States, Russia and China, which are some of the most powerful nations in the world and which refuse to come to Ottawa or buy into the Ottawa process.

Therefore, this work is unfinished and it might remain unfinished. In that sense, the work accomplished by the Minister of Foreign Affairs is only beginning and the work of all those who supported him, including the work that is being done in this House, must continue. The Bloc Quebecois will support the initiatives taken to ensure that this convention will have an increasing impact on the international community.

However, the debate today helped illustrate how parliament and parliamentarians lack a proper voice, I would say an adequate voice, in the process by which treaties are adopted, the process by which treaties are developed and create obligations that are very important and that often entail legislation, as with this treaty, by which treaty obligations can be implemented.

We presented this afternoon an amendment which sought to determine to what extent the government was willing to commit itself to a democratization of the process by which treaties are concluded. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of External Affairs was speaking earlier of the democratization of external relations that had been witnessed by the international community with the adoption of this treaty, which involves not only governments but also non-government organizations, which of course work in partnership with international bodies. It is time to also democratize the process by which states participate in international negotiations and in the conclusion of international treaties.

The Bloc Quebecois therefore attempted to determine in what frame of mind the Minister of External Affairs was operating in this area, and it found out that this issue did not create as much interest as it should, although it will be raised when the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade meets. The Bloc Quebecois hopes that, at that time, there will be a real debate leading to important changes to the this process.

In this case, therefore, by the end of the day we will have a bill, one we have sought to enrich by constructive proposals aimed at improving the implementing legislation. This will be a bill for implementation of a convention with which the Bloc Quebecois is basically in agreement, a convention which will bind Canada, when it has signed and ratified the convention, and which will one day, I am sure, bind the sovereign Quebec so wished for by the Bloc Quebecois, in accordance with the requirements of international law which will be applicable when the State of Quebec state attains sovereignty.

In conclusion, this treaty and this act will be a source of pride for the international community next week. It is true that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has shared with his colleagues, and with those in this House, the glory involved in getting this convention signed, but it is the international community that will benefit from it. It is the men, women and children of the world who will be the main beneficiaries, for their basic rights, the most fundamental one being the right to life, will be better protected by this convention.

Humanity will be the beneficiary of this convention, a humanity composed of the men and women whom states and nations have a duty to protect at all times, including when treaties are signed. I would like to use the words of a great internationalist, one that Professor Jacques-Yvan Morin, an academic colleague of mine and a professor of international law known in political circles, having been a minister and deputy premier in Quebec, has a predilection for quoting. In fact, he quoted him in his 1994 course at the academy of international law. The quotationis from Bartholomé de Las Casas, the great internationalist, who said “ Todas las naciones son hombres ”.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Maud Debien Bloc Laval East, QC

Mr Speaker, I would like to say right off that I rise to speak with great interest on Bill C-22, which concerns the implementation of the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction.

I do so as well with considerable compassion for those, often innocent individuals, whom death has claimed or whose quality of life has been significantly reduced through the explosion of a mine. There is another important element to this too, that of de-mining and the effort expended by the international community in this regard.

One fact remains, and it represents an important step. In a few days, in Ottawa, we will witness the signing of the convention prohibiting anti-personnel mines. Unfortunately, this treaty will not resolve the problem once and for all, because certain major countries will not be signatories. It will, however, help to limit the terrible effects. The Bloc Quebecois recognizes the leadership of the Government of Canada and its Minister of Foreign Affairs in this matter along with the efforts of the public and the NGOs.

I will now give some background on anti-personnel mines. These mines are cheap weapons. Each costs somewhere between US$3 and US$50 and has as its sole purpose the mutilation of the enemy. Despite its low purchase cost, this is a pernicious weapon that continues its destruction long beyond the end of wars and conflicts, as we will see.

Inexpensive, easily produced and effective, these weapons were used in a good many conflicts. It will be recalled that the war between India and Pakistan, the war between Iraq and Iran, the Gulf War and the domestic conflicts in Cambodia and Angola demonstrated the destructive power of anti-personnel mines. First used as defensive weapons in international conflicts, they formed a protective barrier essentially designed to slow enemy progress. That is what mine fields were used for originally.

However, the use of such mines was expanded. Today they are used in domestic conflicts and in civil wars, they are used by police forces as well as by insurgent, guerrilla and paramilitary groups.

The saddest thing about all this is that some governments use these mines against their own population. In Kurdistan, the Iraqi government is said to have mined the fields of several villages, to terrorize the villagers into submission. Anti-personnel mines thus become tools to control population movements and to create fear within the population, the main goal being, sadly, to kill and maim civilians.

As we can see, the use of anti-personnel mines has many very serious consequences. And as if the situation were not terrifying enough as it is, civilians are now faced with this problem, as anti-personnel create war-like conditions in peacetime.

Anti-personnel mines make no discrimination between men, women and children, innocent victims of cruel wars taking place in their country. Those mines that are left behind cause human tragedies of untold sadness. Most of the time, mine victims who are not killed lose a limb. However, let us remember that countries having to deal with anti-personnel mines are almost all developing countries, poor countries that cannot provide adequate care to the injured because of a lack of human and financial resources. These heavily handicapped victims are unable to participate in the local economy, to work to provide for their families.

And what about the economic tragedies caused by anti-personnel mines? In some countries, farmers are unable to cultivate their lands or to put their cattle out to pasture because their fields are mine-ridden. We have seen previously self-sufficient farming areas that now depend on external food aid. For example, it is estimated that in some areas of Angola anti-personnel mines have reduced food production by more than 25%.

Furthermore, it is quite often impossible to deliver food, because truck drivers will not venture out on roads that are strewn with mines. At the same time, besides causing terror, mines prevent post-war reconstruction by interfering with the work of humanitarian organizations and peacekeeping forces.

However, if there is something horrifying and unacceptable when it comes to anti-personnel mines, it is the physical and psychological harm done to the children who are the victims of these barbaric weapons. The images of innocent children horribly burned by napalm caused universal consternation. The effects of anti-personnel mines are every bit as devastating.

For this reason, and it is not the only one, as we have seen, governments that have signed this convention must pursue their persuasive efforts with non-signatory governments. As I said earlier, however, the problems caused by anti-personnel mines will not disappear overnight with the signing of this convention. Their impact will be greatly diminished, it is true. The issue of mine clearing will, however, remain intact.

Worse yet, for every mine removed from the ground, 20 new mines are being laid at the present time. At this rate, it is estimated that it would take 1,100 years and over $30 billion to completely eliminate the anti-personnel mines now scattered throughout the world.

It is therefore imperative that mine clearing be approached effectively and with tools as modern as those used to lay them. We know, however, that mine clearing is an expensive operation. In 1994, the UN spent $70 million US to clear fewer than 100,000 mines. As a matter of fact, it costs between $300 and $1,000 to remove a single mine.

The international community can claim that it does not have the resources necessary to remove all mines. The fact is, however, that, in the 1980s, exports of heavy and of light arms to third world countries represented 70% of the world trade of rich countries. There is an obvious international responsibility here with respect to countries that have become poor to the advantage of rich countries and arms lobbies.

But, despite a large drop in heavy arms exports to developing countries, we have been seeing a worrisome proliferation of light arms in the 1990s. An analysis reveals, and I quote “From 1980 to 1995, ten African nations with a total population of 155 million were torn apart by civil wars. Between 3.8 and 6.9 million people, or 2.5 to 4.5% of the population of these ten countries, died, almost all of them killed by light weapons. It seems that the leaders of western nations are increasingly preoccupied by arms stockpiling in third world trouble spots, in the very areas to which they are being called to send ceasefire monitoring groups. An awareness seems to be emerging from this fundamental contradiction: on the one hand, rich nations are trying to end conflicts while, on the other, they are continuing to supply arms to belligerent nations”. History is repeating itself.

Here again, action must be taken and solutions do exist. This is why the successful implementation of the Anti-Personnel Mines Convention is very encouraging and gives us hope that a multilateral agreement on light weapons can be reached.

In conclusion, the Bloc Quebecois reaffirms its support to Bill C-22. The Ottawa process has become essential. However, as I said previously, we still have a long way to go. At first, our purpose was to deal with tanks and other armoured vehicles, but now we want to protect the civilians whose lives are threatened by these anti-personnel mines, the people who have suffered the most from war.

The signing of the Anti-Personnel Mines Convention, next December 3, will hopefully reduce the number of these human tragedies. However, de-mining remains a sensitive issue that the world community has yet to address seriously.

That is the price we have to pay to give some meaning to the words justice and fairness. It is also the price we have to pay for peace and security.

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6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been discussions among representatives of all the parties for the following motion, and I would ask that you seek unanimous consent of the House for the following.

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6:05 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh.

Anti-Personnel Mines Convention Implementation ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Perhaps I could hear the proposal of the chief government whip.

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6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention in any way, shape or form to deny anyone the opportunity to speak on this very important matter. As can be witnessed by the number of members in the House today, this subject matter is one that many members want to speak to. In that same spirit I move:

That at the end of this day's debate on third reading of Bill C-22, the question shall be deemed put and adopted unanimously.

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6:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the chief government whip has the unanimous consent of the House to present the motion?

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6:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.