House of Commons Hansard #134 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Reg Alcock Liberal Winnipeg South, MB

Mr. Speaker, the only thing that lacks credibility in this House is the platform of the Reform Party. For every complex problem there is a simple answer and it is usually wrong. I am reminded of that when I look at the Reform response to these problems.

We just heard the member say that he would take the punitive $5 billion-it is actually $3.6 billion-and divert it from its current use which is helping us to try to meet the budget deficit that we have and put it all into roads. Sure I would love to see those roads built but I ask the member: What tax would he then dedicate for hospitals? What tax would he dedicate for jails? Would we not end up as the state of California did, so bound up in our own rigid application of tax policy that we would no longer have any flexibility? We would have no ability to move as a House and represent the people of this country.

The fact is we have a problem with our road system and we need to solve that problem. The fact is there has been some very important work done. What is interesting is that those same people, the Canadian Automobile Association, the Canadian Trucking Association, the Canadian Tourism Association, the people who build the roads and the people who finance the roads were all at that round table. They sat at that table and they did not say the only solution to this was to dedicate taxes. They did not adopt the Reform position. They were not that simplistic. They actually got down to work-

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member's time has expired. Debate, the hon. member for Kootenay East.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:10 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, if Canadians ever had any question in their mind about the truth of the saying Liberal, Tory, same old story, it has been put totally to rest with this budget.

For the longest time in Canada, unfortunately Canadians have been subjected to very deceptive political practices, particularly as we approach an election. We have seen historically where governments have attempted to make things appear to be what they are not and particularly to try to buy the votes of the Canadian public. Canadians are far too intelligent to continue to put up with that kind of deceptive political practice.

Let me tie the Liberals and Tories together inextricably right from the word go. We are talking about a bracket creep, and that is not my opinion of some of the members opposite. In bracket creep we are talking about something that was actually brought into effect by the Tories in a budget of theirs in 1988. They basically deindexed the amount of the basic personal exemption and also deindexed any increases, unless inflation was over 3 per cent, that would occur in the tax brackets.

If we were to assume that an individual had a $3,000 job five years ago, it is quite feasible that the person today, for doing the same work, in order to have the same buying power that he had five years ago at $3,000 would have to have $3,600 in income. Unfortunately, his basic personal exemption of $6,453 in that period of time has not increased. If his basic personal exemption had increased, it should be around $7,900. So in fact, this individual with no change in his buying power from five years ago to today is now paying tax on an additional $1,450. That was originated by the Tories in 1988 and was continued by the Liberals in 1993 which is why I say Liberal, Tory, same old story.

Additionally that individual will find himself suddenly bouncing up into the next tax bracket. The problem is actually magnified or doubled because he is not only paying tax on the additional $1,450 but he is paying the tax at a higher rate. Liberal, Tory, same old story, the same kind of deceptive political practices.

What we are looking at here is not only the continuation of the Tory practices by this Liberal government, but it has taken this deception in this whole process to an even higher level. This government did not even have the intestinal fortitude to bring in the additional amount of money that is going to be taken off of Canadians' pay slips every month. It did not have the intestinal fortitude to include that announcement in this budget.

We are going to be talking about the fact that there have been tax increases later in my discussion. However the point I am driving at is that suddenly Canadians are going to be paying 70 per cent more on their Canada pension plan premium that is being extracted from their paycheque every month. At the higher level that is an additional $1,300 a year for which Canadians will receive nothing, nada, zippo. They will receive absolutely zero in additional benefits for paying out an additional $1,300 a year. If that is not bad enough, the problem is that if the Canadian happens to be self-employed, guess what? They get to pay the employer's portion of that amount.

This afternoon I was speaking to a newspaper reporter and I asked how many people were involved in the company overall. The reporter told me there were about 250. Let us think about this for a second. That company is now faced with an additional $1,300 a year it has to contribute to the Canada pension plan times 250 employees. It is going to be paying out an additional $32,500 a year for absolutely no benefit.

More important, that company will now have to make a decision to reduce the bottom line of the company by $32,500 or fire somebody. Unfortunately the company will probably end up making the worst of the judgments, which is to let somebody go.

This is what is going on here. The young people of Canada on this CPP issue are getting it in the ear two ways. First they are getting it in the ear by virtue of the fact that they will be paying our $1,300 a year more for absolutely no increase. The second difficulty is that their jobs will be jeopardized because companies have no way to attract more income in order to come up with the money for the government in this so-called CPP contribution.

Even for people who are in a lower income bracket, and I mean a very low income bracket, CPP will still be deducted from their cheques. They should know that the amount currently being deducted from their cheques will be increased by 70 per cent. That means they will have less money to spend.

There is a basic tax grab going on in addition to the CPP, which this government will never admit to. How can government members explain that the gross domestic product in Canada, the sum total of all of the goods and services produced in Canada, in the past three years, which is the three years this government has been in this Chamber, has increased by nine and a half per cent? The total goods and services, everything that can be taxed, has increased by nine and a half per cent, but guess what? Government total revenue has increased by twelve and a half per cent. And those members have the audacity to to try to tell us that this government has not been taking more money out of the economy. They cannot refute those numbers.

Taxes cost jobs, and we know that. Take a look. For over 70 consecutive months our unemployment rate in Canada has been over 9 per cent; it is now at 9.7 per cent. In comparison, our trading partners have the following unemployment rates: the United

Kingdom is at 6.7 per cent; the United States is at 5.3 per cent; Japan is at 3.3 per cent. The Liberals cannot walk away from it.

They gave Kim Campbell a rough time in the last election. They tried to say that she did not know what she was talking about when she said that the unemployment rate would probably hover around the 10 per cent level. I recall the current Prime Minister was in absolute glee when Kim Campbell said that. And what have they accomplished? They are still at 9.7 per cent, and with no hope because in the future they will be taking even more money from the economy.

In terms of deception it does not just stop in the area of taxes. I cannot imagine the chutzpah of a finance minister who would actually put out a pamphlet saying that they will be sustaining and improving health care. They will be putting $300 million back in to a place where they took $7 billion out. Let us put this into perspective. Seven billion dollars is seven thousand million dollars. They took seven thousand million dollars out of the health care transfers to the provinces; they are putting three hundred of that seven thousand back, and they say that they are going to sustain and improve health care. Is this a joke or what? The chutzpah of this government is absolutely immense.

The government has downloaded this entire problem to the provinces from the word go. I believe Canadians are intelligent people. Canadians are not going to be taken in by this. When Canadians take the time to realize what a chicanery has been perpetrated on them by the people in government, they will treat it accordingly in the next election.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

St. Paul's Ontario

Liberal

Barry Campbell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, if we are talking about chutzpah, let us talk about March 1, 1995 when Reform's subamendment asked members of this House to vote against the Liberal budget because it did not cut fast enough. They were opposed to the budget because it did not cut fast enough.

I would like the member to tell this House, to share with us how it is that he can stand there and criticize the cuts as he just did when he voted in opposition to the budget because it did not cut fast enough.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciated that question because it is so simple. The government cut in all the wrong places.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Kenora—Rainy River Ontario

Liberal

Bob Nault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, if people were students of history they would recall that we have had right wing parties in this House before. I recall reading about the debates that the right wing was talking about when we brought in medicare, that medicare was going to be a total drain on society, that it would hurt the economy and that it would take people out of work.

Now we know that the economy quite frankly is considered by other countries in the world to be one of the best situations because of medicare in that it helps employers with their bottom lines and it helps employees.

Also, when we brought in social assistance or welfare as a national program in this country we had the right wing say the same thing.

Now we have these people across the way who are suggesting that because we have improved and made sure and secured because of the values of the nation our pension plan for future generations-

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

An hon. member

Your pension plan.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

Yes, that is absolutely right, my pension plan. I will get the Canada pension plan just like everybody else when I retire and the children of these members here hopefully will get a Canada pension plan as well.

That is why that particular party is at 11 per cent in the polls and sliding fast.

If what was said here just a few minutes ago was even close to being believable, and I want to ask the member this specific question, why is it that they keeping dropping in the polls? Is it that we are so good at deceiving Canadians that people do not realize that we are not doing a good job?

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am so happy this member brought up his pension plan and the pension plan of all of the other people who are in this disgusting MP pension plan. They have looked after themselves all right. They have taken care of themselves and then they are shafting the Canadian public with this 70 per cent increase.

What I would like to know from any of those members that are on this fat pension plan is are any of them going to be doing a 70 per cent increase in the premiums they are paying.

The Canadian public right now is paying $4 for every $1 that these people put in. Right now what is going on is with this increase of $1,300 a year Canadians are going to be getting less out than what they are putting in. These people are absolutely disgusting that they would even bring up their pension plan.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, he can go on and bluster all he likes but I just want him to answer a very simple question. If his party's policies were so believable, why is it that he cannot seem to get over the 10 per cent mark in popularity with the rest of Canadians? In Ontario it is 6 per cent and dropping. It does not even go on the Richter scale.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be very happy to see that member or any other Liberal in my riding. I am not even the slightest bit concerned, but he should be.

I come back to the medicare issue. He is talking about the fact that the Liberals brought in medicare. When the Liberals brought in medicare the federal government promised 50-50 funding to the provinces. What happened to the 50-50 funding to the provinces? It slashed, hacked, downloaded to the provinces, still asked the provinces to do exactly the same things while giving them a 20 cent dollar instead of a 50 cent dollar.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, just for the Liberals over there, I had a wonderful speech all ready to go and now I have to talk about the MP pension plan.

Is it any wonder people have lost confidence in governments in this country? The fact is the average Canadian will now have to work about 30 years and contribute to the Canada pension plan to get about $9,000 at the end of it. They may even have to work 40 years or more to get about $9,000 at the end. The Liberals say this is good, that it will help Canadians to live down the road. By that time $9,000 will mean next to nothing.

Let us have a look to see what the Liberal MPs have done for themselves. Inside of ten years they qualify for the richest pension plan in the world. Every one of these people across the way is gouging the Canadian public with the richest pension plan in the world.

How much did their premiums go up? Not a red cent. They expect young people to contribute another $650 every year when those members are not taking anything out of their pockets. It is disgusting. How can they call themselves leaders when they are sucking off the trough? Let us look at how things have changed in Canada since the Liberals have formed the government.

I must say, for those who are listening, that there is a lot of rattling going on here. We have touched a nerve. We have touched a big nerve. It is hard for them to stand and face anybody in this country, gorging off the trough like they do.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, there have been a number of accusations in this House in the last number of years since this new party came into being, which was going to-

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I would ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to get to the point very quickly.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

The point is, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to the member that he not use the kind of language in the House which he has just used. That is the reason the situation-

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Fraser Valley West has the floor.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, we have touched a raw nerve. They are upset because we are saying that they are gorging off the trough. They do not like it. That is too darned bad. I will tell you who does not like the big issues. It is the guy working in this country who is contributing another $650 out of his pocket. These MPs are contributing nothing more. They are getting three times as much in less than one-third of the time. If they do not like it, that is just too darned bad. We will see you all in the next election. Come to my riding.

Mr. Speaker, they are being noisy again. I like to see how we touch off nerves, especially when it comes out of their pockets.

Let us look at where Canada has come from and where it is today as a result of these people being in power. I can remember in 1993 when the debt was around $450 billion. Have they improved the country since then?

The debt is now bordering on $600 billion. One of the members over there had the unmitigated gall to stand up and say there is a light at the end of the tunnel because of the Liberals. The light at the end of the tunnel is $600 billion, $150 billion more.

They got a standing ovation here the other day when the finance minister said "we are only borrowing $19 billion this year". How does anybody get a standing ovation when they are saying that they are overspending and borrowing on the backs of Canadians nineteen thousand million dollars? How on earth do these members give a finance minister a standing ovation on that? It is sickening.

Where is crime today? Much worse than in 1993. What has this government done? Virtually nothing.

This country is not better off after three and a half years of Liberals. I will say who is better off. All the Liberal MPs and the separatists over here who are gorging off the MP pension plan. They are better off.

They say that we have cut to the bone. This is a common saying among these folks. Let us look at some of the money they gave away last year which is still sitting in the budget.

They gave $987,000 to the National Action Committee on the Status of Women. That was given out last year, but is still in the budget this year. Could they not have taken that out this year?

They gave $138,000 to the Canadian conference of teamsters. Will they repeat that next year? Could they not have said "there is your money this year and we will cut that out of the budget next year"? No. They said that they cut to the bone.

From 1993 to 1996 ACOA handed out a staggering $975 million. People only have to look and read the papers in Atlantic Canada to understand what happens with ACOA money. Most of it is a waste.

They give this money year after year. Is there no such thing as zero based budgeting in this government? What does this government know about youth and unemployment?

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member is giving false information by suggesting that ACOA is wasting money.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

As the member knows, that is debate. That will not come out of the member's time.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Is it not interesting, when we strike nerves with this group, how they whine about it?

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

An hon. member

Enjoy it, Randy, it may be one of your last speeches the way you guys are going in the polls.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, one of these Liberals here is trying to say that this is my last speech because I may get defeated in an election.

These people better learn how the west feels, how my riding feels about what I am talking about. We had one and a half million people unemployed in 1993. Why do they not stand up and tell us how many we got unemployed today? Are we better off with this government? We got one and a half million people unemployed today.

To stand up and tell us they created x number of jobs, they still have one and a half million people unemployed.

There is one heck of a lot of young people who are underemployed. In the event that you do not know what that means-

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I ask the hon. member to refer to the Chair.

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I get carried away.

I just want to go back to one other thing that is going to tell the country whether we should elect Liberals again. How much are they taking out of the pockets of Canadians and how much is every one of these people getting while living off the trough of the MP pension plan?

The BudgetRoutine Proceedings

6:35 p.m.

Kenora—Rainy River Ontario

Liberal

Bob Nault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, so far we have noticed that the member has alienated women, also Atlantic Canadians. I am surprised he has not alienated aboriginal people. But we did not give him enough time. Maybe we will give him the next opportunity to talk about his party's aboriginal policy.

I would like to know exactly where he stands on aboriginal policy since I represent 51 First Nations. I would like to know his views on funding to First Nations.

The last thing I would like to ask the member is if he could explain to us why we would be in favour of his particular old age pension plan which is going to increase to individuals some 14.2 per cent, as the Minister of Finance has suggested. Could he tell me if that is true or if Reformers have changed their position again and maybe gone back down to some other number? We would certainly like to know so we would know his position for the next election campaign.