Debates of Feb. 21st, 1997

Tobacco Act

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I guess it is because I am paying attention and I am looking for some validity to argument that I am expressing myself. If that is a little too much for the Bloc to take, too bad.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I would remind the hon. parliamentary secretary that I believe he was the first speaker in the debate. I think especially the people in the gallery and the Canadian public want us to listen to each other. I do not think they want us to shout at each other in here.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would remind my colleague, the hon. parliamentary secretary, that in order to appreciate the validity of arguments and understand them, one must show a minimum of respect and listen to people when they talk.

Getting back to the cultural sector, the hon. member is probably upset by my statement that the cultural sector in Quebec will be greatly affected. I was referring to events such as the World Film Festival, the Jazz Festival, the Quebec City Summer Festival and many other events which succeeded, through the years, in securing more private than public financial support.

The organizers managed, on their own initiative, to find sources of funding. They were told: "Be more autonomous". With time they managed to find sources of funding for their events, which have become great successes. These events have become profitable and have helped enhance the city of Montreal and Quebec as a whole. Other events elsewhere in Canada do the same.

Today, they plan to deprive them of their sources of funding by going after the sponsors. Naturally, the ban is not total but the consequences will be the same. We know very well what the consequences of overregulation will be. Such events will become much less attractive, hence the strong reaction of the people concerned.

The same can be said about sporting events. Take for instance the Montreal Grand Prix and the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix. Vancouver and Toronto also have car races. Prohibiting sponsorship will have a major impact.

At home, we have international regattas, which follow a circuit in Quebec and the United States and which will be seriously affected, because a major sponsor is Export "A". Anticipating events, the company chose to not necessarily renew their financial commitments, in case sponsorship is banned.

Think about it. I remember a sign in the middle of a lake at home. If only 10 per cent of the sign may be used to display the company name, you would need binoculars to see the print at the bottom. This is crazy. It would take signs of 1,000 feet by 1,000 feet, an incredible size, for any kind of visibility, if only tiny lettering is permitted on these signs.

I have some questions in this regard. What is the real purpose? We all know this will have an effect, particularly on Montreal. The Liberals take great pleasure in saying they want to help get Montreal and Quebec's economy rolling again.

The events being targeted work well. There are so many things that do not work well here that we should spend our time trying to fix them rather than going after the things that do work. This is what makes people sick.

It colours the credibility of all members of this House. I was listening to an open line radio show on my way home. People were calling to express their mistrust of politicians and saying: "Look at all the time they waste making stupid laws". This is what we are

talking about today. These people have a very hard time believing politicians after that.

The hon. parliamentary secretary, who travels extensively, reminds me of a chihuahua, a breed of dog that barks all the time. Where was he when cabinet made the decision to go ahead with this? In Quebec, he goes around passing himself off as a great champion of that province. He is also the member representing Outremont in this House, and the Montreal area as well. Where was he? Who exactly did he protect in this matter? He makes public appearances now and then to say he will stand up for cultural and sports events. He then disappears for a few days. He was nowhere to be found. One wonders what has happened to him, why he is so silent.

The day of reckoning is coming. I hope his voters will send him a very clear message in the next federal election, one he will not soon forget.

There are other aspects to this bill. Take the regulations they want to impose on convenience stores. Amendments have been made; still, there is a desire to regulate convenience stores left, right and center. Imagine this, they even want to ensure that cigarettes are paid for before they are handed over to the client. Will the exchange have to take place within a specified time, just in case the client changed his mind between the time he asked for the cigarettes and the time he received them? Why not? That may be the next step. It makes no sense.

Convenience stores will also have to make physical changes to the premises to comply with a number of provisions. They will not be allowed to display tobacco products on counters.

Look, when people go to a store to buy a product, the fact that it is displayed on a shelf, whether it is on the left, the right or the middle, will not make them change their minds. Location will not make any difference. We have to strike at the root of the problem: the reasons why people, and young people in particular, start smoking. Those are the people who need to be educated about the dangers of tobacco use.

I am not a smoker. I am not defending my own interests here; quite the contrary, I am allergic to tobacco smoke. There is no smoking in my house. There is no smoking around my house and people I see on a regular basis do not smoke. But there is a limit to going after people who made a choice at some point. They must comply with regulations in the workplace and elsewhere, but this is going very far.

In the minute I have left, I want to discuss another aspect of the bill. The government says: "Trust us regarding the regulations that have yet to be drafted. Take our word. Give us a blank cheque". But we sure know what it does with its promises and its commitments. We all know what this government does with its promises, starting with the Prime Minister. When the example comes from above, it makes people suspicious. I am convinced the public would not forgive us if we gave a blank cheque to this government regarding regulations.

We will do all we can to keep the government from passing a bill that would have devastating effects.

The minister said: If we do not pass a bill on tobacco, you will vote against us. I say to the minister: Go ahead with this bill. There are already a lot of people in Quebec who will vote against you; there will simply be more. You will pay the political price at the next election. Withdraw this legislation. Raise the issue during the election campaign. Let us have a public debate and give people an opportunity to be heard. You will see what they think. You will see how Quebecers feel about this issue.

[Maurice Bernier, Bloc, Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in this debate on Bill C-71, a debate which demonstrates this government's arrogance and lack of cohesion. The behaviour of the parliamentary secretary to the health minister is exactly like the behaviour of his government in general, with its pompous arrogance, trying to prove that they are always right.

They are wrong this time, and we will explain why. In this matter, the Liberals remind me of what a group of Quebec comedians in the 1970s, les Cyniques, used to say: "We want nothing but your good-and your goods". So that is the Liberals' attitude: it wants to preserve the health of Quebecers and Canadians in general, to protect them against everything possible. Now, I am an ex-smoker, and I respect those who want to smoke. I denounce the Tobacco Police, the likes of the parliamentary secretary to the health minister, who are trying to convince our fellow citizens that they are concerned about their health.

I will say this to the government: the major danger to the overall health of Canadians, especially their economic health, is the presence of this Liberal government. I would tell the parliamentary secretary to make sure not to inhale, or he will have to face the consequences. The quicker we can get rid of this government, the better off Canadians and Quebecers will be.

Although the Minister of Health and the government spokespersons suggest that this is not a bill on culture, that it is not a bill on sports, but that it is a bill on health, this is not true. We say to them "Take care of your own health. Health comes under provincial jurisdiction. Mind your own business, we will take care of our health, we will take care of our economic development". That is what we want to do.

The actual impact of this bill must be considered. Again, it will have no impact on Canadians' health. All they we want is for the government not to meddle in something that does not concern it. The government wants to ruin something that is working well, that is the impact of tobacco advertising on cultural and sports events.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health to tell us which youngster of his acquaintance started smoking after having seen Villeneuve drive by at 200 kilometres an hour on television with a Marlborough sticker on his helmet? It is totally ridiculous. I invite the parliamentary secretary to appear on stage during the Just for Laughs festival. He could make us laugh for weeks.

During next election campaign, when the Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health comes to Quebec, I am sure he will bring Quebecers to stop smoking just because they know that what he is saying is a smoke screen because, generally speaking, it is all smoke and mirrors. Such is the Liberal Party.

I am proud to be part of a group of parliamentarians that stand tall. Yes we would like people to stop smoking; everybody, all smokers would like to quit. We all recognize that tobacco is harmful for our health. Everybody admits that. But it is a personal choice. Each individual must decide for himself. When I stopped smoking, it was not because I had seen the parliamentary secretary. On the contrary, seeing him would drive me to start smoking again. I stopped because I had decided it was bad for my health. That was the basis for my decision.

However, we must respect fundamental freedoms. How can the government interfere to the point where it can tell merchants how to organize the sale of their products? How can it tell promoters of cultural and sports events who will be allowed to sponsor their events? Even in Russia they would never have gone that far. That is the Liberal government we have in front of us today. "Mind your own business". That is the message that the whole population of Canada, and Quebec in particular, is sending you repeatedly. "You have no business in the health sector. Let the provincial governments do their job". In Quebec, we will have that debate on the impact of tobacco and we will decide whether or not we want to restrain, to keep people from smoking.

Furthermore, once again, as we see in all the government's bills and in the budget tabled this week, not only are the things we find in the bill appalling, but worse than that, there are the things in the bill we know nothing about, specifically, the regulations. We do not know what kind of regulations will come after this bill is passed. We are kept totally in the dark. We are in a thick cloud of smoke, as far as the regulations are concerned.

Small merchants have every reason to fear the implications of the decisions that the government will make. As we have seen on many issues, this would not be the first time it changed its mind. If we take the example of the GST, the government got elected the last time by saying it would scrap the GST and would create thousands of jobs. Yet what do we see today? The GST is still here and Canadians are anxious to be able the scrap the government.

In 1993, there were 1 million children living in poverty; there are now 1.5 million. I would say to the parliamentary secretary that poverty has much more impact on our children's health than an ad during the regattas on Lake Témiscamingue. Let them make the real decisions and stop cutting into unemployment insurance to get rid of the deficit. This government is letting billions of dollars get out of Quebec with family trusts; that is the action that the government is taking. We are having a fake debate with a government that is a fake. However, we, in the Bloc Quebecois, will make a real decision: we will stand up and vote against this government.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the amendments to Bill C-71. I would like to thank the hon. member for his passionate speech; it was probably because of the subject: tobacco.

The core of the problem with this bill is indeed sponsorship. The measures included in the bill could eliminate a number of cultural, sporting, and social events. Most Bloc members decided today, a Friday, to come back from Montreal to oppose this crazy bill, as Quebecers have asked us to.

On this entire issue, things are far from clear. Members opposite are telling us that it is clearly a health issue, and that we must legislate. Everybody recognizes that smoking is not healthy, and that we must do all we can to prevent our young people from starting to smoke. Unlike the two previous speakers, I am a long time smoker and, despite several tries, I have not been able to quit. I think it is important to tell our young people not to start smoking, so they will avoid the problem of trying to quit later.

Since we agreed on this in principle, we voted for the bill at second reading. However, we must admit that sponsored cultural and sporting events are basically healthy and may even encourage potential smokers to be more active. We know that, generally speaking, athletes are not heavy smokers.

We are here today to speak to this bill. I would like to point out that not too many members across the way stood up for Quebec's interests in this matter. If I may, I would like to quote from an article published in La Presse on February 16, in which the Liberal member for Outremont, who was just mentioned as the exception in that he stood up for Quebec, is quoted by Réjean Tremblay as saying something like the following: ``Everyone agrees with the intent of the legislation put forward by the Minister of Health of

Canada." So do we. "Trade in tobacco should be regulated, not with a view to ban its sale but rather to control it. We must look at the 10 per cent rule for advertising, the notion of site for events, merchandise and the possible extension of the transition period".

Note that, after this was written, we have never seen the hon. member for Outremont again, and there is a fundamental reason for this: he is a Quebecer, a Liberal member from Quebec who, even if he wanted to defend Quebec or positions taken in Quebec, could not do so because his caucus, which is of another mind, would not let him. That is a fact, and that is why we will not see the hon. member for Outremont stand up and speak on this issue.

We must recognize also that the spinoffs generated by sponsorships are very important to Canadians and Quebecers. I would like to mention some of the major events that will be affected, some of which have already been mentioned: the Just for Laughs Festival, the Montreal Grand Prix, the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix, the Montreal film festival, the Toronto film festival, the Montreal jazz festival, the Vancouver jazz festival, the Benson and Hedges international championships, the Player's international tennis championships and many other sports and cultural events.

As we know, the cultural community too is not at all happy with the proposed limitation of sponsorships because it will lose a major source of revenues at a time of government budget cuts. We know how much culture has always suffered from lack of funding. The cultural sector had finally managed to find patrons, but we are now taking them away. As my colleague was saying, we are stopping something that is working when we should be going after lots of other things.

As for revenues, here are some data about it. According to the Canadian Tobacco Manufacturers Council, sponsorship of arts amounts to about $25 million whereas that of sports organizations amounts to about $35 million, totalling $60 million in Canada, including close to $30 million in Quebec. That is why we are in the House today, to defend this position that should be considered.

The health minister questions these figures, saying that, for several events, only a small proportion of the funding is coming from tobacco companies. However, he cannot say what the sponsorships amount to and, moreover, he fails to mention that for some events the proportion is much higher than what he is says.

For example, here are the figures reported in The Gazette on December 5 of last year. The Montreal Jazz Festival costs $9.5 million, and tobacco company sponsorships bring in $1.5 million, or about 16 per cent of all sponsorship revenues.

We all know how much the jazz festival is an integral part of Montreal's image, and we know also that fireworks attract visitors in droves. Well, fireworks cost $1.4 million, of which $1 million comes from tobacco companies. Tobacco sponsorship represents 72 per cent of costs.

The Festival Juste pour rire, and that probably includes Just for Laughs too, costs $10 million, and tobacco sponsors fork out $1 million, or 10 per cent.

The Festival d'été de Québec costs $4.5 million, and tobacco companies pour in $500,000, or 11 per cent.

Some 16 comparable analyses of 88 cultural and sport events throughout Canada estimate that economic benefits stand at $133 million and that 2,179 jobs depend on these investments. The member who spoke before me made the point, which is fundamental here, that there is no consensus on the real impact on tobacco use of the visibility of sponsors' trademarks in cultural and sport events.

In that same vein, we should keep in mind the remarks of the minister on December 6. He stated that, within three years, the number of smokers would drop 1.5 million because of this legislation, some 15 to 22 per cent. But he has been unable to explain how these estimates have been figured out. They have no basis whatsoever.

Moreover, I remember two surveys, and this is important, because the essence of democracy, as my colleagues have pointed out, is that it is the people who decide. We will therefore talk about the people.

Two surveys confirm that the majority of people do not want the proposed legislation to apply to cultural and sports events. In particular, the survey that appeared in La Presse on December 6 showed that 81 per cent of respondents felt that the measures contained in the proposed legislation would not stop young people from smoking, and 68 per cent were against the ban on sponsorship. And we have a government determined to make laws that people want nothing to do with.

Even if it does not ban sponsors, as the health minister keeps saying, there is a strong danger that the bill, through its restrictions, will effectively eliminate sponsorship by tobacco companies.

Another survey, and I will close with this, was carried out by Insight Research Canada in September 1996. It found that 66 per cent of Canadians agreed that tobacco companies should be

allowed to sponsor events and organizations in the fields of arts, sports, entertainment and fashion. Furthermore, 84 per cent of respondents felt that a company legally doing business in Canada should have the right to sponsor these events.

In addition, 83 per cent thought that the decision of whether or not to allow sponsorship should rest with the organizations sponsored and those doing the sponsoring, rather than with the government.

Clearly, people are not in favour of this bill. That is why the members of the Bloc Quebecois have returned in large numbers today to defend this position. If there is no change regarding sponsorship, we will be voting against this bill.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think this is a wonderful example of the Liberal way of doing things.

In December 1996, the government tabled a bill on tobacco products. It managed to keep speakers for the Bloc Quebecois to a minimum. The bill was passed on the quiet and quickly referred to committee. And now, on a Friday, in the very week the Minister of Finance tabled his budget, just before the House adjourns for a week, it quietly brings it before the House. They want to pass it without making waves. This is a controversial bill and no one in Quebec wants this bill. The minister knows that, that is why he wants to neak it by us. "Maybe the Bloc will not be there, so we can pass it quickly". Well they are wrong, once again: the Bloc is here, as we always are when it is time to defend the interests of Quebec.

Once again, the Bloc will show that if it were left to the Liberals and federalists in this House, one more bill would be passed at the expense of Quebec, because that is what Bill C-71 is about. Who is going to suffer most? Quebecers. Amazing.

I was listening earlier to the parliamentary secretary talking about the health of Canadians and Quebecers and telling us how much the use of tobacco products costs us in the way of health care. Amazingly the parliamentary secretary forgot to say how much revenue tobacco products pour into the Treasury every year. Cigarettes put $3.5 billion into the government's treasury. He did not mention that. Of course not.

What would the Minister of Finance have done this week if $3.5 billion had been cut from his budget? I know the answer: he would probably have offloaded the additional deficit to the provinces, as he has always done with transfer payments. For the time being, they are being holier than thou. The health of Canadians is terribly important, but meanwhile, they collect the cash, and that is something they do not talk about. Cigarettes and tobacco products represent $3.5 billion in revenue annually. They do not mention that.

Another thing the parliamentary secretary and the Minister of Health failed to say was that this bill directly affects sports and cultural events in Quebec. Sponsors annually invest between $30 million and $35 million in these activities, in Quebec alone. It is odd that the minister and the parliamentary secretary did not mention that. I would like to have heard them say what they would do.

As we saw in the budget, this week the government is dropping just about everyone. In the same week, it tables Bill C-71, which will cut funding directly and threaten the very survival of cultural and sporting events in Quebec. Between $30 million and $35 million will thus be affected.

This is money invested directly by sponsors. Do you know how much money is reinvested by the people who attend these festivals in Quebec, people from elsewhere, tourists? Do you know how much money they leave in Quebec? They bring in $133 million. Do you know how many direct jobs are created? Two thousand jobs are directly linked to cultural and sporting events.

The government has been saying "jobs, jobs, jobs" since 1993. All it has done this week is invest a mere $25 million in the budget and cut 2,000 jobs in Quebec. These are jobs directly related to sports and cultural activities.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You are red as a beet. Better watch your pressure.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

What hurts me most in this bill is-

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That will certainly hurt you too.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

-that in my own riding of Berthier-Montcalm Bill C-71 directly affects certain events. I did not hear the minister or the parliamentary secretary mention that either. The people of Berthierville are very proud of the Gilles Villeneuve museum. Why is there a museum? There was a racing driver named Gilles Villeneuve who put Berthierville on the world map. Today there is a museum in Berthierville in his honour.

While the Grand Prix are going on in Montreal and Trois-Rivières, people from Switzerland, Italy and Monaco come to visit the Gilles Villeneuve museum. These people spend money at the corner store, hotels and restaurants. That means millions for Quebec, not just for the Montreal area. I did not hear the minister or the parliamentary secretary mention that.

There is something else in this bill which I find unacceptable. This measure has a direct impact on tobacco production; it so happens that 80 per cent of that production comes from the Lanaudière region, which is in my riding and in the riding of Joliette.

The bill has an impact on that industry, but the government does not talk about it. How many jobs are involved? The hon. member for Joliette can confirm that 1,500 jobs are directly related to tobacco production. Annual profits from that industry total about $20 million, for the ridings of Berthier-Montcalm and Joliette.

But the parliamentary secretary and the Liberals are silent on that issue.

Fortunately, there are Bloc members here to set the record straight. We work at protecting Quebec's interests, because the members opposite do not. Since we started debating the bill this morning, I have yet to see Liberal members from Quebec speak for our province's interests. Where are they? Since December, they have been telling the media and sports organizations: "We will defend Bill C-71 and we will defend tobacco sponsorship".

Where are these members from Quebec who are supposed to look after the interests of their province? Where are these Liberal members? They are not here. They are hiding. They are ashamed of this bill. They are not here because they did not fulfil their duty as members of Parliament, which is to effectively represent their constituents before cabinet, before their party. That is why they are not here. They have failed. They tried to calm people down. They engaged in disinformation, as the parliamentary secretary is doing now. Perhaps he should listen.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Do not do that, your mother is watching you and she is embarrassed.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Perhaps you should listen and tell your minister to withdraw his Bill C-71, which goes against Quebec's interests and hurts its economy. Such is the reality.

[Bob Kilger, Liberal, Stormont—Dundas, ON]

Mr. Speaker, like the other hon. members in this House, I note the great passion in the speeches on this bill, a great interest in it. I would simply like to remind the hon. members, in order to make this a traditional debate, that we must continue to address the Speaker, so that this will be more parliamentary.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

You are doing the Speaker's job.

[Bob Kilger, Liberal, Stormont—Dundas, ON]

I must support the Speaker in his duties. I believe it is perfectly normal for there to be a call to order from time to time.

[An hon. member]

Absolutely.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I would make the same request of everyone in the House. I would like a little more calm to prevail, for the sake of those in the galleries.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Indeed, Mr. Speaker, you are right. The hon. member across the way is right.

I think this is a bill that hits close to home with the Bloc Quebecois members. I would, however, also like to ask you to keep the parliamentary secretary quiet when members are defending Quebec in connection with this bill. He is the one who is stirring things up constantly with his inappropriate comments, when this matter is being discussed.

In closing, I wish to state, so that the people of Berthier-Montcalm may be perfectly clear on my position-that I will be sending a letter out to all of the convenience stores. I have not had an opportunity to talk about convenience stores. We could find a lot to say about convenience stores, about the regulatory power the minister has reserved for himself to tell them how to run their business, where to put their cigarettes. They will now have to tell their customers: "Pay for your cigarettes before you get them, and tough luck for you if you change your mind, because you will be stuck with them".

Did he also announce that he will compensate convenience stores for the fact that they will no longer be allowed to use tobacco company stands to display the packages of cigarettes? No. There are a lot of things relating to the bill which are not stated clearly.

I will see that a letter goes out to all of the convenience stores, all of the supermarkets, all of the pharmacies, a very clear letter inviting people to reason with this government, to intervene, to realize that this government and the Liberal members from Quebec are not working on behalf of their fellow citizens.

I am also inviting all of the hon. members on the government side to make this bill an election issue. Defer it, and we in the Bloc Quebecois will debate it in all of the municipalities of Quebec, in every corner of Quebec, and we will see whose side the public is on. Will it side with the Liberal government, which is passing irresponsible legislation, or with the people of Quebec, who do not want this bill?

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my duty to speak at the report stage of Bill C-71, the bill on tobacco.

The committee of the House of Commons heard a total of 23 groups that are affected by this bill. In fact, several bills on tobacco products have come before the House in the past but none were adopted. The control and marketing of tobacco products has been talked about in the House of Commons for nearly 34 years. The first bill on the subject was tabled in 1963.

The government is now trying to rush this particular bill through the House by proposing only one amendment that deals with corporate sponsorships. It has given tobacco companies a grace period of 12 months after royal assent to give them time to find alternatives for their sponsorships. Even the Conservative leader in the Senate believes that a transition period of one year is not enough.

On second reading the Bloc Quebecois voted in favour of the principle of the bill to protect the health of the public, but at the report stage, the Bloc Quebecois cannot vote in favour of this bill, for the following reasons: the government and the Minister of

Health have given themselves undue discretionary powers with respect to regulations.

Bill C-71 is another excuse for the government to invade a provincial jurisdiction. In fact, the Constitution Act, 1867, subsection 92(7), provides exclusive jurisdiction over the operation of hospitals, asylums and other institutions, while subsection (16) gives the provinces exclusive power over all local and private matters.

The federal government has jurisdiction over navy and quarantine hospitals. Since the provincial government intends to pass legislation on tobacco products, we are stuck with the perpetual duplication and overlap that makes things very confusing for all concerned.

The government has tried to expedite this bill by refusing to allow the opposition to schedule speakers at second reading, except for my colleague from Lévis who spoke on December 5. The latter informed this House of his concern about the minister's timing in tabling his bill.

The Bloc Quebecois urged the health minister and the minister of propaganda-pardon me, Mr. Speaker, I meant to say the Minister of Canadian Heritage-to find a solution in order to offset the financial losses to sports and arts events. The Minister of Health categorically rejected the Bloc Quebecois' proposals and did not take into account the testimony heard before the health committee.

The events affected include the Just for Laughs festival, the Montreal and Trois-Rivières Grand Prix, the Montreal and Toronto film festivals, the Montreal and Vancouver jazz festivals, the Benson and Hedges Symphony of Fire, and the Players Tennis Internationals, to name just a few.

I would also like to mention the wonderful work done by Gilbert Rozon, formerly of Saint-André-d'Argenteuil who, although born in Montreal, spent many years in the riding of Argenteuil, where some of his family still live. Mr. Rozon has repeatedly expressed his dismay at the government's position, which does not take into account the disastrous economic repercussions of this bill on these events.

Mr. Rozon has been involved in numerous cultural and arts events. In 1980, he founded a dance and theatre festival, the Grande Virée, in Lachute in my riding, which will feature the top entertainers from Quebec and from France.

In 1983, he founded the Just for Laughs festival, a one of a kind international event. He put Montreal on the map by founding an international festival, a school and a museum. Last December 10, Mr. Rozon told the health committee that, of the Just for Laughs festival's $15 million budget, $450,000 came from the government and just over $1 million from tobacco manufacturers. Francis Fox, a former Liberal minister, told this same committee that, in the past, people like Mr. Rozon had moved heaven and earth to find sponsors.

It is very important to mention his testimony before the health committee, because it reflects the government's refusal to take into consideration the importance of obtaining funding in order to continue to promote the culture of Quebec and of Canada.

The minister of propaganda-excuse me, of Canadian Heritage-has no problem finding funds for propaganda, with her flags and her advertising, but she will not subsidize such remarkable events as the ones we just mentioned.

I want to share with you another excerpt from the comments made by Mr. Rozon, who said, in essence: "We have been under unbearable financial stress these past four years. We were asked to turn to the private sector for funding and we did. But should this bill pass, I cannot help but wonder what it will do to culture exactly. Generally, we are put on this Earth with the hope that we will have learned something by the time we leave it, and culture is a key element in the development of human beings, their souls and their identities.

"The major events taking place in Montreal and across Canada are essential to the development of the Canadian identity. Funding is being cut six months before an event. To respond specifically to your question, I can assure you that, six months from now, every one of the events affected will be between $1.5 million and $2 million in the red because alternative sources of financing will not have been found. We would not be here this morning if we had found a way around the problem".

What solutions has this government brought in to deal with this problem? The government has not found a solution, and it will not rectify the situation simply by delaying implementation of this measure. Those who promote Quebec and Canadian culture must go on with their work; they have the support of the people.

The health minister maintains, without providing any exact figures, that several events have only a fraction of their funding coming from tobacco companies. It is important to note that, according to 16 compatible studies on 88 cultural and sporting events across Canada, it is estimated that these events generate $133 million in economic benefits as well as 2,179 jobs.

In fact, the public is clear on the subject: cultural and sporting events are greatly appreciated by Canadians. Several of these events provide fun and relaxation to some people and jobs to other people.

Bill C-71 is threatening these events and that is why the Bloc Quebecois cannot vote in favour of this bill at third reading. In Canada, tobacco companies sponsor cultural, sporting and other

events to the tune of $60 million. In Quebec alone, sponsorship by tobacco companies totals nearly $30 million.

One must not think that the Bloc Quebecois' voting against this bill at third reading means it does not care about the health of Canadians. On the contrary, by voting in favour of this bill at second reading, the official opposition recognized the validity of the government's objectives, particularly the importance of the health of our young people under 18. We disagree with the steps taken by the government to meet its goals.

We agree with what was said by the representatives of the Quebec medical community who have formed a common front reminding federal and provincial governments that they unconditionally support any initiative to put an end to smoking. Unfortunately, Quebec is the province with the highest rate of smokers in the 15 to 19 age group, a third of whom start smoking before 13.

Since my time is coming to an end, I will conclude by quoting the journalist Jean-Jacques Samson, who said in today's edition of Le Soleil: ``When governments try to sabotage a good thing, they have no equal''. He concludes by saying that the government is about to pass another piece of legislation that will make lawyers very happy.

For all these reasons the Bloc Quebecois will vote against Bill C-71 at third reading.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to rise today to speak to this bill. It is the first opportunity I have because, at the second reading stage, we were precluded from doing so because of the squabbling between the Reform Party and the Liberal Party which was meant to keep the parliamentarians from debating democratically. It is unfortunate, in a Parliament which should be a forum for discussion and where truth should be sought as much as possible. So there is nothing to be happy about.

As far as Bill C-71 is concerned, I wonder if the Minister of Health was in good health when he introduced this bill. I doubt it, for various reasons. This is the same minister who, from one day to the next, had decided that raw milk represented a danger to human health and had drafted some kind of weird regulations which would have restricted our cheese consumption to Cheez Whiz and other products like it.

This to say that I am not impressed by the minister. The Liberals are arguing that their only motivation is the health and best interests of Canadians and Quebecers, but I, for one, do not buy it. You just cut $4.5 billion out of health expenditures, including $1.3 billion in Quebec. You did not even realize at that time how detrimental this could be to the health of Canadians. Strange that you should not have cared a bit about that.

Out of nowhere, the government introduced with a bill; health had become important overnight. If the impact had been the same in Toronto as it is in Montreal, I doubt that this bill would have been introduced by the minister. I think that members from the Toronto area would now be on the benches defending the bill, which is not what members of the government party coming from Quebec are doing.

Madam Speaker, I feel that you will agree with me.

There is more to it, there is something worse than the bill. I agree with everything my friends have said. Of course tobacco is harmful. I look at my package of cigarettes: 16 per cent tar-

[Some hon. members]

You are not allowed to show it.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

-13 per cent nicotine. There is not even a cigarette in there. All there is is nicotine and tar.

However, the government must still be honest. It has taken $3.5 billion in taxes out of the smokers' pockets, over the past 35 years; in a way, the government has been acting as a go-between. It is no nobler than pimps when it taxes profits from prostitution, for instance. The same principle is involved here.

The government gets $3.5 billion. The olympic stadium tax in Montreal, I have almost paid for it by myself with the taxes you have been taking on every cigarette I have been smoking since.

All this to tell you that you are not honest. You are dishonest. Have the courage of your convictions. Simply ban tobacco in this country. Then I might be more inclined to listen to you. I do not think I would vote for the bill, for personal reasons, but at least I would say: "This decision is based on logic, on a deep sense of justice and fairness, on the public's interests", and that would not be so bad.

But here, you take the profits in a roundabout way, you pocket every possible economic benefit, to the tune of $3.5 billion, and then you say no to the public. Your approach is illogical and dishonest, fundamentally dishonest, and this is why we are blaming you, the government members proposing this bill.

But there is worse still. Government members have now teamed up with the fundamentalists who are opposed to tobacco. These are professional whiners, like the hired mourners in ancient Greece, who resurface whenever an issue might be a little touchy with the public. These are people who used the École Polytechnique tragedy to promote their own ideology; they showed no respect in that case as well. We are confronted with the same people regarding this bill. They say: "Stop this; think about our health". It is true that smoking is harmful. I believe a member here once said: "Let us begin by putting money in this".

Some day, we may discover that smokers like me, who are unable to stop-I must have tried 15 times and never succeeded-have a disease. If alcoholism is a disease, it may be that smoking is also a disease. It is not by clobbering anyone stuggling with this problem, by literally robbing that person every time you table a budget, as you have been doing for nearly 35 years, that you will help that person get rid of the problem.

Try to enhance public awareness, try to put some money into detoxification, into information, and do as they do with children in elementary schools. I am pretty sure that my grand-daughters will never smoke, because it is always a big fuss every time I light up.

From an early age children are motivated against smoking, and I say it is good. But at least have the courage of your convictions. Do not try to collect $3.5 billion on the one hand, and then try to make us believe that you want to pass such a bill out of concern for public health on the other. You are much more concerned about your $3.5 billion that about public health.

This is another example of the neoliberal philosophy that prevails today. This is an ill-inspired bill that will give the Minister of Health poorly defined powers allowing him to implement regulations on a piecemeal basis depending on which way the wind is blowing.

Incidentally, these regulations may never be published. Bill C-25, which will be adopted soon, allows the minister to take everybody by surprise by drafting and implementing regulations without ever publishing them. That is what Bill C-25 is all about.

The parliamentary secretary may not know it, or if he knows he is not telling, but it is coming. This excessive regulatory power that the minister of raw cheese is giving himself-I am glad to see you here, Madam Speaker-is a raw deal; it is utterly irresponsible.

The minister will be able to play with the rules as he sees fit. The regulations may be good or bad, published or unpublished. And that is when the fun will really begin. The lawyers, who are the friends of the government, will have tons of cases to plead, all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada. They will have cases and cases galore, all the way up to the Supreme Court. This is how the Liberal Party goes about rewarding the party faithful.

They are already listening and are anxious that this bill be passed so they can go to court and pocket hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of dollars in fees to defend a law that, as we already know, will be challenged in court. To begin with, this does not even come under the government's jurisdiction.

Tobacco companies will be on the attack again. The money they will give to their lawyers will not go to sports or cultural events. They will enrich the Liberal Party. Three years from now, there will be a minister, a new one, of course, who like his predecessor will stand there aghast and say: "This is crazy. The Supreme Court has just dismissed our appeal". Basically, it is the same old story we heard a few years ago.

Madam Speaker, spare the rod and spoil the child is all very well, but it seems to me you are harder on me than on other members. However, I bow to the Chair.

All this to say I will not vote for this bill. Not just because of the impact on sponsorships. I will vote against the bill because of the principles you decided to ignore. First, the principles of constitutional jurisdiction, but also principles of civil law such as reversing the onus of proof, and this unlimited power to make regulations in the minister's office with his pals, the parliamentary secretaries and the rest, all smoking away. However, I will have no part of this.

There is also this cozy relationship with major lobbyists. On the weekend, the media published the names of members who were opposed to this bill. You would think we were in Iran. I will not be blackmailed. I will vote against your damned bill.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will probably be the last member to talk about Bill C-71 today. I can only expand on what my colleagues have already said before me.

The Bloc Quebecois did indeed support this bill at second reading. This party is not against virtue but is in favour of protecting the health of all Canadians and in particular the health of Quebecers. The Bloc will always support initiatives enhancing the quality of the environment and the health of Quebecers and Canadians.

But there is a limit to what one can do in that regard. This bill is paternalistic, to an unheard of degree. This government wants to control the health of Quebecers, but they are perfectly able to take care of themselves. If the government wants to regulate the health of other Canadians and if they agree, fine. Let them submit to this legislation.

Yet, as my colleague said earlier, the federal government has no right to interfere in health issues.

Quebecers are quite capable of looking after their own health and administering their other activities, as far as recreation and the environment are concerned. What does this bill do, under the guise of protecting the health of Canadians and Quebecers? It is as if someone wanted to treat an illness with medication without having evaluated its side effects. The government wants to eliminate cancer caused by smoking by giving us another illness as serious as or even more damaging than cancer: the cancer of unemployment.

Once everyone has died of unemployment cancer, there will be no victim left for cancer caused by smoking. It is as if someone decided to make everybody die of heart disease, so that there would be no one left to die of lung cancer. The government is taking steps

that will result in honourable citizens being asked to sacrifice their jobs in order to have a healthy unemployment; in Joliette this means 1,200 to 1,500 jobs. They have their jobs taken away from them, but they are told "Well, at least while you are unemployed, you will be healthy".

That is not how a good citizen should be treated. Our citizens are treated with far too much interference, far too much paternalism. You do not replace one evil with another. Ideally, we would like all Quebecers, and all Canadians, to quit smoking. I would call myself an occasional smoker, since I do not have a cigarette in hand all the time. I have stopped smoking many times, I have started over again many times too.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

An equal number of times.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

An equal number of times, of course, because when a person starts smoking again, he has already quit. Now, continuing in the same vein, to explain what I had started on. People make choices, but I do not think anyone would choose one illness in order to cure another. Nobody would agree to have their left hand cut off in order to save their right or to quit working tomorrow and put their job at risk in order to live in better healthier life.

That is not what they want. We have nothing against the principle of this bill. What we oppose is the extent of the means the government takes to reach its ends. This bill needs further study. We were prevented from debating it. We had only one speaker at second reading. Because of government trickery, we were prevented from going any further.

Today, they are going hell bent for election, but they seem in less of a hurry to apply certain parts of the bill. The parts that could prove difficult and could hurt the government during the election campaign are being put off until next year. In other words, because of side effects, the dose is being altered. Instead of a pill every hour, it will be every three hours. It will still hurt, but it will take you a little longer to notice it.

This is what we oppose. We cannot accept that the fallout from this bill will upset the lives of Canadians, and Quebecers in particular, who are responsible for cultural events, who organize their fellow citizens' leisure activities. Why should we always throw a monkey wrench into the works?

Once again, when certain events work out well, let us not interfere, and let us resort to more creative means in our fight against tobacco. If the government lacks imagination, the opposition is by no means short of ideas. We have already made one suggestion, which is to provide some kind of compensation.

But the government would not have none of that. We have suggested positive ways to wage the fight nicotine addiction without jeopardizing worthwhile events.

Obviously, we are still supportive of this bill's principle which will govern smokers and non-smokers activities, but not at any price. The cure should not be causing another problem.