House of Commons Hansard #144 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was copyright.

Topics

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The recorded division shall also apply to Motions Nos. 2, 3, 50, 51 and 52.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Gaston Leroux Bloc Richmond—Wolfe, QC

moved:

Motion No. 4

That Bill C-32, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 33 to 41 on page 14 with the following:

"(2) A person who for private and domestic purposes commissions the taking of a photograph or the making of a film has, where copyright subsists in the resulting work, the right not to have a ) copies of the work issued to the public, b ) the work exhibited or shown in public, or c ) the work broadcast or included in a cable programme service, and a person who does or authorizes the doing of any of those acts, without the consent of the person who commissions the photograph or film, infringes that right.''

Madam Speaker, I take issue with some of the comments made by certain members of the Reform Party, which I found to be in extremely bad faith, especially with respect to the danger radio stations will face with the introduction of neighbouring rights.

The aim of neighbouring rights is to afford performing artists and production houses the protection enjoyed by the citizens of the countries that signed the Rome Convention and to ensure that performing artists and producers receive fair and equitable royalties when they work, whether they are interpreting the works of creators or authors or producing their own works.

This has long been awaited and requested by artists. They were totally forgotten in Quebec and Canada when 50 countries signed the Rome Convention, which provides artists with a salary. I do not need to remind this House, and particularly my Reform colleagues, that the average annual salary of artists is between $7,000 and $13,000 per year.

Our objective was to ensure that the introduction of neighbouring rights did not penalize certain stations with lower revenues or facing difficult financial situations. We in the official opposition would have preferred the government leave the matter with the Copyright Board. The government preferred to set a floor or a ceiling in order to exempt a number of radio stations.

Our Reform colleagues make no mention of this important element of the bill, which provides that radio stations with $1.25 million or less in advertising revenues will pay only $100 a year in neighbouring rights. When I hear our Reform colleagues talking about the risk of stations closing and of jobs being lost, I think that is bad faith.

Neighbouring rights, I remind you, are those paid to performers and producers. They have been ignored for decades, although they are recognized by over 50 countries. We must at least understand that there is a whole category of artists called performers, who work and are not getting paid. They get no return on their work, because it is played on the radio or elsewhere.

These people are entitled to a fair income for their work, like everyone in society who works and is paid a fair wage. I have a hard time understanding the Reform Party's objection to people living or trying to live off their work as artists. The Reformers are defending the radio stations at all cost, crying wolf, saying that neighbouring rights will force stations everywhere to close, causing a loss of jobs.

This is crying wolf, because, after evaluation-and my own and others' discussions with representatives of radio stations-this significant $1,250,000 exemption means that the bulk of stations will simply be charged $100 annually, which does not jeopardize them in any way. Let us be clear on this: it does not jeopardize them in any way, contrary to what the Reform Party claims.

I would like to focus particularly on the Bloc's amendment in Group No. 3 of motions, reminding the government that it is merely intended to ensure that photographers are recognized as the author, on the same footing as other creative artists are by the bill.

I would like to point out this extremely important aspect, because the photographers themselves have been trying to gain recognition as artists for decades.

I invite the government to support my amendment on this. There is even a museum of photography here in the national capital. We know how the magazines use professional photographers for exhibitions. We know how some photographers have earned international acclaim as artists on the basis of their works. How can it be that the government has not yet lent an ear to the photographers, and included them in the bill and recognized them as artists?

In order to ensure proper attention to this, the Bloc motion provides that, when a person has a series of photographs taken of the family, the children, etc, it is clearly stated that the person who pays the photographer has ownership of the photos and therefore owns the work, and not the photographer.

In all cases, however, where photographers take pictures with a view to displaying them as works of art, it strikes me as completely logical in 1997, after decades of efforts to gain recognition, that photographic artists finally be recognized in the bill.

We moved this amendment because the bill lacked any clause recognizing photographers as artists and creators, and I hope the government will support our amendment and give recognition to photographers.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Madam Speaker, when this bill came forward, a tremendous number of people were concerned about it, including the photographers. One of their concerns was the lack of protection for their works. As I look at Motion No. 4 put forward by the Bloc member for Richmond-Wolfe, it seems that the Bloc Quebecois is infringing on ordinary contractual agreements that can be made between people.

The Bloc is really asking in this bill that there be a virtual interference with the ability of people to come to their own conclusions, arrive at their own agreements and work forward from that point. The member has brought forward a very restrictive motion. For example, Motion No. 4: "A person who for private and domestic purposes commissions the taking of a photograph or the making of a film has, where copyright subsists in the resulting work, the right not to have copies of the work issued to the public", and I do not understand the Bloc's thought process here, "the work

exhibited or shown in public, or the work broadcast or included in a cable program service".

The reason I am saying I do not understand the Bloc's thought process is that realistically there should be an agreement between two consenting parties. When I look at the inclusion of the clause by the government I find myself far more in agreement with the position of the government. The reason is simply that it speaks about the exchange of value for consideration. The consideration was paid pursuant to the order and in the absence of any agreement to the contrary the person for whom the plate or other original was ordered shall be the first owner of copyright.

It sets up a pecking order that would work well to resolve situations between contracting parties as opposed to the Bloc amendment which sets up restrictions that people would actually have to negotiate away.

This is a concern. Photographers made presentations to us in committee, to me personally and to, I am sure, many other members. They pointed out that in a lot of instances when they lose control of the negative their work has the potential of being compromised.

I think of a situation in my constituency where a chap has had a photograph reproduced many times in many magazines. As a matter of fact it was actually made significantly larger and reproduced in poster format. It was the picture of a helicopter soaring above the clouds in the mountains taken from the mountainside. It is very dramatic. Imagine his chagrin that he has no way to recapture it.

We have been critical and continue to be very critical of the way in which the government has handled Bill C-32. Many portions of the act have created imbalances in both directions. It is being held together with chewing gum and baling wire. Nonetheless this is a clause included by the government that I would see the Reform Party being able to support fully.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Madam Speaker, I rise to speak to Motion No. 4 in the name of the member for Richmond-Wolfe which reads:

That Bill C-32, in clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 33 to 4 on page 14 with the following:

It goes on to describe different items. I would like to explain what I think is right about the several proposals of the member for Richmond-Wolfe. Also another serious flaw which the member for Kootenay East did not raise but may or may not agree with me on is a pretty obvious one.

This amendment would replace a part of Bill C-32 which, for the most part, seems well crafted. It mentions an exchange or a contractual agreement between two parties, which is a property right. It talks about the necessity of the arrangement and how one person can obviously enter into a contract on a photograph. It includes photographs as a piece of property and is a good amendment.

It has the support of most people. Professional photographers or someone who commissions a photograph should have some proprietary rights to it. It should not be used willy-nilly without their say. If there is not some kind of control professional photographers, except for the initial photograph, would have no protection from leeches who could steal their work, publish it in papers, copy it and make their pound of flesh from the artistic ability of the photographers in question.

The problem with the amendment is that it is written in the negative. They would have the right not to have. That is a poor way to describe a right someone has. The amendment is crafted backward. It should be crafted in the affirmative. It should talk about what the person has the right to do, not about what the person does not have the right to do. It is a poor way to describe that right of photographers.

To get into the body of the proposed amendment, where copyright subsists in the resulting work I am not sure if that is the same as what exists. I guess it means it can be or it could be copyrightable. I am not sure if that is wise. Copyright rules are designed so that one has to copyright something before one gets the rights to it.

Be that as it may, as we get into the body of the amendment we see that part A talks about copies of the work being issued to the public. The intent there is proper. It would protect someone from having a photograph in a gallery beside the Chateau or anywhere else in Canada retaken, recopied, sold as a work of art and profiting from it. I assume issued to the public would include things like issued for sale and not just for presentation or whatever they are doing to receive a benefit. There should be a contractual agreement. Part A is relatively easy to agree with.

Part B is the work exhibited or shown in public. This is a worthwhile amendment in that it protects people who may not want their works broadly distributed. It protects those who may want a limited audience for their photographs. It may have been very private or personal. It may be one of a kind. All photographs are but it may be something for their pleasure only.

Under that amendment they would think their work would not be shown without their permission. I think of everything from very personal photographs of babies or loved ones or some horrific pictures of car accidents they do not want rebroadcast for public gain, for propaganda purposes or for a dollar value. It is something

they do not want rebroadcast. It should be their right to step in and say they do not want that to happen.

Part C refers to the work broadcast being included in the cable program service. One concern about the Copyright Act that I have heard expressed by local cable companies is the infringement of their rights. I am thinking of a local cable service in my riding that does a good job of broadcasting public events. It is almost a public service. It works almost exclusively with volunteers. It rebroadcasts events of all kinds including parades, other public events and showings and local fairs. It takes its cameras to 4-H Club presentations. It is a real public service.

In towns such as mine with about 60,000 to 70,000 people the cable service becomes a community service. It is not a money maker per se. We count on the cable service broadcasting council meetings, for example, and all the other items I mentioned.

When such a work is included in a cable program service sometimes it is inadvertent. The broadcast of a 4-H demonstration or whatever could include original works of art or original photographs that are contest prizes. They could rebroadcast on the cable system, as paragraph (c) mentions, which could almost inadvertently infringe on somebody's rights.

In my riding these shows are often rebroadcast four or five times during the week to ensure they hit all the target audience. The concern expressed to me was about what would happen if the Santa Claus parade were rebroadcast and something copyrightable was infringed on.

There are no provisions. It is just thrown out that if the cable program services do it they are in trouble. If they repeat it four or five times they are really in trouble. They say that is unacceptable. They say they need the freedom as a community service to broadcast public events, public showings and so on. They feel that if people do not want their photograph or their product rebroadcast they cannot be expected to know that. They cannot stop the cameras, go up to someone and ask if it is all right to move past a painting or display. They cannot function in this way in a public event such as a fair, a Santa Claus parade or whatever. It is not possible.

They are concerned the Copyright Act does not give them the freedom they need to do their job as a community service. I have to agree with them.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Reform

John Duncan Reform North Island—Powell River, BC

Madam Speaker, the proposed amendment by the Bloc is a bit complicated. It amends a current amendment to the bill which amends subsection 13(2) of the act.

I have read the amendment several times. I have consulted with other people. I do not know if it is anything but what can be described as nebulous. The amendment is amending an amendment which is nebulous, to begin with.

I will try to explain what I mean. We are talking about engravings, photographs, portraits, plates and originals. The wording of the unamended amendment indicates that in the absence of any agreement to the contrary the person by whom the plate or original was ordered shall be the first owner of the copyright.

The question comes down to the "by whom". Is it the artist or the person ordering from the artist? Legal counsel would only be able to say that is unclear. It could be interpreted either way.

As a consequence we cannot build a concrete foundation on a sand foundation. It will not work. It is not that I wanted to compare the Bloc amendment to concrete necessarily, but I had a duty to point that out.

I assume that the intent of the Bloc's amendment is to empower the artist. However, we may already be empowering the artist with the original amendment. If it is an attempt to overturn that amendment, that is one thing. If it is an attempt to strengthen it, that is another thing. I am not at all clear in which direction we are going.

In any case, there is a flaw. It is an important flaw. We want to attempt to achieve clarity in our legislation. We have all been in circumstances in which we have seen draft legislation come forward, and the constructive readings of that draft legislation can come from the most unpredictable sources.

In one of the committees on which I sit a government bill was introduced that turned out to be so badly drafted when it got to committee that it was withdrawn and has yet to come back to committee. That was several months ago.

There are lots of precedents. We all know this can happen. It is important for us to look once again at this clause.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Is the House ready for the question?

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The question is on Motion No. 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those in favour will please say yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

We will now proceed to the motions in Group No. 4.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Restigouche—Chaleur New Brunswick

Liberal

Guy Arseneault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage

moved:

Motion No. 6

That Bill C-32, in Clause 15, be amended by replacing

a) line 29 on page 27 with the following:

"27.1 (1) Subject to any regulations made under subsection (6), it is an"

b) line 1 on page 28 with the following:

"(2) Subject to any regulations made under subsection (6), where the"

Motion No. 60

That Bill C-32, in Clause 62, be amended by adding after line 18 on page 96 the following:

"(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (1)( d ), paragraph 45(1)( e ) of the Copyright Act, as enacted by section 28 of this Act, shall be read as follows for the period beginning on June 30, 1996 and ending on the day that is sixty days after the day on which this Act is assented to: e ) to import copies, made with the consent of the owner of the copyright in the country where they were made, of any used books.''

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

moved:

Motion No. 44

That Bill C-32, in Clause 28, be amended by replacing lines 22 to 26 on page 62 with the following:

"where they were made, of any used books."

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Restigouche—Chaleur New Brunswick

Liberal

Guy Arseneault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage

Madam Speaker, I would like to be on the record on these motions. There are in this grouping three motions, Motions Nos. 6, 44 and 60.

Motion No. 60 is a government motion. Motions Nos. 6 and 60 are both technical amendments. Motion No. 6, is a consequential amendment. It makes a correction to a subsection added to the bill by the committee.

Motion No. 44 by the member for Kootenay East in the name of the member for Edmonton-Strathcona is about used books. It claims that used books could not be imported and things of that nature. I would like to correct that perception.

The bill does not prohibit the importation of used textbooks. Rather, it provides a safeguard should the importation of certain used textbooks become a problem. The amendment made by the standing committee ensures that Canada can continue to maintain control over its own marketplace. It is a very solid safeguard and the concerns of members should be looked after with regard to that amendment.

Motion No. 60 in the name of the government is a consequential amendment, one that all parties will probably accept as well as the other one. It ensures that an amendment made by the committee will not be retroactive to June 30, 1996. I know many members have spoken against retroactivity in the past including members of the Reform Party, Bloc Quebecois and the independent members present. I suggest to them again that it would be wise to support this amendment.

With regard to Motion No. 44, the government will be indicating its decision but personally it is a no vote. We are not in favour of Motion No. 44 because the bill itself guarantees protection and there is a safeguard in there to make sure that our marketplace is not distorted when it comes to used books.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill C-32, specifically to Group No. 4 amendments.

At the outset I wish I could share the confidence of the hon. parliamentary secretary that the clause I am going to speak on is not going to be a problem for students. I do not see that when I read the bill. I take exception to his confidence that it is not going to be a problem.

Motion No. 44 effectively deletes the second part of clause 45(e) which deals with import copies made with the consent of the owner and the copyright in the country where they were made of any used books. Then it goes on to say except textbooks of a scientific, technical or scholarly nature for use within an educational institution in a course of instruction. That is the clause which is the problem.

Clause 45 in the bill addresses the issue of exclusive distributors in Canada. If a copyright owner has selected a Canadian publisher to distribute his or her work in Canada, that publisher is an exclusive distributor. Clause 45(e) provides an exception to this and makes it lawful for individuals to import used books. That would be fine if this government had left it at that. Instead, the government has created an exception to the exception. It has specifically made it unlawful for individuals to import textbooks of a scientific, technical or scholarly nature for use within an educational institution such as colleges and universities.

What does this mean? The Liberal government has given into the pressures of the Canadian publishing industry at the expense of those who can at least afford it, the students. It is interesting to note that this amendment was pushed through at the last minute in

response to pressure from Canadian publishers. It is also interesting note that when the Canadian Booksellers Association appeared before the parliamentary committee considering Bill C-32 in October 1996 absolutely no mention was made of used textbooks. Instead, this amendment was added at a late date without any meaningful opportunity for interested parties such as booksellers and student associations to have input. That was shameful.

Time and again this government has said that it is committed to young Canadians. This government has tried to make us believe that it is investing in the futures of young Canadians. For many young Canadians the future starts with university or college. Books are one essential part of higher education. As a parent whose daughter is currently in university I am only too familiar with the costs involved, tuition, books, living expenses. They all add up quickly. In a northern riding such as mine, Prince George-Peace River, the expenses can be much more if a student is forced to relocate in order to pursue a higher education.

Luckily my daughter has parental support, but many students do not. One way they can defray the high costs associated with university or college is to buy used textbooks. Because there are few Canadian suppliers of used textbooks, bookstores and students rely on a supply of used textbooks imported from the U.S.A.

The average price of a brand new text book is about $75, and even that seems low. I am well aware that many students face costs of hundreds of dollars for textbooks. It is estimated that the cost to students of purchasing new rather than used textbooks will be $5 million annually if this amendment is passed. This will only worsen the student debt problems that we are currently facing. On an individual level the effect of this amendment will be to increase the total amount a student spends on textbooks over the course of his or her degree by as much as $1,600. This is a huge blow to students and their parents.

Sixteen hundred dollars would pay for a whole semester of college or university. Sixteen hundred dollars could help students from more remote areas who have been forced to relocate to travel home for Christmas or for summer jobs. Not only do students buy used textbooks to save money, they sell them back to campus bookstores in order to recoup some of their money.

These textbooks are exported to distributors outside Canada. Canada currently exports more used textbooks than it imports so there is a balance of trade there. By restricting the importation of used textbooks this government is affecting this export trade. We can expect that if the import of used books stops, so will the export. Demand for used texts will fall and students will no longer be able to sell their books back to campus bookstores. This will result in an estimated loss to students of $2 million in revenue each and every year from the sale of used textbooks.

Canadian universities and colleges are increasingly relying on revenues from the sales of used books. Campus bookstores benefit twice from the sale of used textbooks. They get a commission on the purchase of used textbooks by the students and they get a margin on the later sale of reused textbooks to other students.

It has been estimated that lost revenues for Canadian academic institutions and their bookstores as a result of this Liberal amendment would be almost $600,000 each year. As we all know, decreased revenues are always passed on to the consumer in the form of reduced service and higher costs. In this case I reiterate that the consumers we are talking about are students.

Who will this amendment really help? The Canadian publishing industry seems to think it will protect them. However, despite what we have been led to believe Canada is not being overrun by foreign used textbooks. In 1995-96, 29 per cent of the used textbooks that were exported from and reimported into Canada were Canadian material. Canada is in effect recycling its own used textbooks.

The effect of this amendment will be to force students to buy brand new textbooks, most of which are published by American companies. Therefore the protection of Canadian interests argument does not hold water. I submit that the true effect of this amendment is to protect the profits of foreign owned new textbook publishers.

Another effect of this legislation will be to encourage Canadian students to photocopy their friend's textbooks rather than spend money on new ones. Students who resent being forced to purchase new textbooks or who simply cannot afford them will no doubt pick the cheaper option and head to the photocopier. Who could blame them?

Surely this is a step backward for copyright protection. Not only does this raise concerns from the student perspective, it also raises concerns under NAFTA. The amendment would interfere with trade based solely on geography rather than content or intellectual property rights, thereby offending the national treatment provisions of NAFTA.

Clearly this amendment, which restricts the import of used textbooks into Canada, does little for anyone other than foreign new textbook publishers. All it does is unfairly penalize Canadian students, colleges and universities while at the same time failing to have any positive effects on the Canadian economy.

That is why I strongly urge this House to adopt the amendment proposed by my hon. colleague to delete this senseless restriction on used textbook importation.

Copyright ActGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Madam Speaker, it is good to speak to this amendment today. It is an important one. I do not know if it slipped in without being noticed by the government but for some reason the government has seen fit to leave it in here.

It is concerned about one of those rising free trade issues of all times, the case where used textbooks could slip across the border in incredible numbers, flooding the market with cheap textbooks. It happens all the time that thousands of businesses go broke. Every day I get phone calls about this.

The reason it is a concern is that this specifically mentions university textbooks of a scientific, technological or scholarly nature. This provision is in there in case used textbooks become a problem. Again, I can hardly imagine that happening. Even if it were to become a so-called problem, what a delightful problem it would be.

I was in university for a while. The reasons I left will be left not discussed today. I was in university for some time. What does a person do when they get into university? The first thing they do is get courses assigned and textbooks.

People get their textbooks. They rush down because there is always a certain number of used textbooks available. They are available for first come, first serve. They are half price. If a person charges in there, they can get a scientific novel, a dissertation that is already highlighted and ready to go at half price.

When talking about a $1,600 bill for textbooks, what a plum to know there are plenty of textbooks, hopefully a plethora of textbooks, a cacophony, lots of textbooks all available at half price.

The member from Peace River asked what the number one priority is of a student. There is no doubt what the number one priority is. It is scholarly activity.

Jana is one of the many pages who serve us in the House of Commons. They do a wonderful job. I asked this young lady what her priorities are, what is catching her attention these days. They are getting near the end of term. They are here on a scholarly enterprise. They are here to learn and they also learn in university.

"I live to work at my scholarly activities". I said: "You look a little tired this morning. Is it possible that you have been working too hard?" She said yes, she had been working too hard. She had been up to three o'clock in the morning studying some obscure topic that probably most of us would not even understand.

I am sure that with the use of a textbook and friends of both sexes they worked together to get to the studies at hand, using every asset at her disposal and pouring herself into her work. I was impressed. I am sure that at about one or two o'clock this morning she was thinking to herself "where are those used textbooks?" It was weighing heavily on her heart. I am sure she was thinking "if they cut off the supply of used textbooks, what shall I do, I will have no opportunity to further my education". She could be relegated to spending evenings in fruitless activities or who knows what.

I think of Jana when I think of this clause. I think what a sad thing it would be if this clause were to pass unamended. It would make it impossible for her to use any of these used books.

I jest somewhat of course. However, the intent of my remarks is sound. People going to university have a limited income, limited access to books. Almost all of them are striving to make ends meet and it is a tough job. These pages here are just like everyone else. They are trying to make ends meet as well.

Why would we want to restrict the access of used books to these people and others, that it could suddenly become a problem? I do not think people who are attending university need to be concerned about limited access. I say if used books can be found by the bus load, bring them in and sell them at half price, let the students benefit. After all, many scholarly books are only scholarly for that short university period. Let us recycle them, use them up and give the students a break.