House of Commons Hansard #137 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was health.

Topics

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to.)

The House resumed from February 21, consideration of Bill C-71, an act to regulate the manufacture, sale, labelling and promotion of tobacco products, to make consequential amendments to another Act and to repeal certain Acts, as reported (with amendments) from the committee; and of Motions Nos. 1, 3, 8, 26 and 29.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Mr. Speaker, we resume consideration of report stage of Bill C-71. With the guillotine the government just imposed on this bill, we unfortunately have only today's sitting to try to explain to Canadians what the situation really is right now.

Thus, for the benefit of our viewers and in the hope that the government will finally understand, I remind the House that the Bloc Quebecois supports 80 per cent at least of this bill. We are not ashamed of saying it out loud and clear: we agree with 80 per cent of this bill.

This having been said, I want to stress an extremely important matter. The government is missing the whole point with this bill, since it does not recognize in the first clause that tobacco is a hazardous, highly addictive and potentially lethal product. That is what should appear in clause 1 if the government were really being consistent.

But no, the government refuses to do that because it would then have to crack down on tobacco and, eventually, to declare it an illegal substance, thus losing billions of dollars in taxes. That is where the problem lies. When the time comes to collect money, the government has no problem with tobacco, but when the time comes to let tobacco companies give money for cultural and sports events, especially in Montreal, which receives half of the sponsorship money, the government claims that its duty is to protect children's health.

To protect children's health, the government would first have to control tobacco. The government should be able to force tobacco companies to reduce the nicotine content of their cigarettes.

With its insidious measures and fallacious arguments, the government has brought us to a dead end because, in the past ten years, it has financed tobacco producers to help them make tobacco more addictive. Consequently, a young person who starts smoking today needs another cigarette after an hour and a half. That is what tobacco companies have decided. A smoker cannot go for more that an hour and a half without having a cigarette. That is how long he can go before having a nicotine fit. We even see people who, unfortunately, have to slip out; even though they work on the sixth floor, they rush downstairs to light up outside the building because they cannot wait more that an hour and a half. That is the problem.

The government should stop doing that, recognize that tobacco is a dangerous product and force tobacco companies, which are mostly located in Ontario, to reduce the nicotine content of their cigarettes.

If it controlled tobacco products, the government could then regulate access to these products and control tobacco advertising, but it should not ban sponsorships because this is a dead end for the government. There is not one serious study that shows a direct cause-and-effect relationship between tobacco advertising and smoking.

I would really like to know how a young person can see the Rothmans logo on Jacques Villeneuve's car zooming by at 240 kilometres an hour. One must really have good eyesight to see the words Rothmans, Players or du Maurier at those speeds. One must have really sharp eyesight. The ban on sponsorship will really put us into trouble.

I repeat that tobacco should be a controlled substance, it should be declared a dangerous product under the Food and Drugs Act. This should be the first step, but the government refuses to take it.

The second step should be to regulate the inspection process. There should be standards setting the maximum nicotine and tar content. Instead of that, the government chose to spend millions of dollars to try to show us that unidentified packages or plain packages would prevent people from smoking. The clever ones lost no time in designing even more attractive packages.

Complete and effective legislation would first control the product and its publicity; not ban it, but control it, control the sale of cigarettes. We have been saying for a long time that there should be effective coercive measures against people who sell cigarettes to children, one cigarette at a time.

In her magnificent letter, Senator Hervieux-Payette said that when she was chairperson of a school board in a Montreal suburb, she fired some employees who sold cigarettes to kids. As some editorials pointed out this morning, we must first take certain measures before falling into the trap of exaggeration or, worse, extremism.

Sales must, therefore, be controlled. We need some coercive measures. For example, the convenience store owner who sells cigarettes to children, one cigarette at a time, could be fined $5,000 for the first offence, $10,000 for the second offence and, for a third offence, he would lose his permit to sell cigarettes. If it is a hazardous product, a permit should be required to sell it, and there should be someone monitoring permits.

Access to tobacco should also be monitored. The government has gone overboard: it is forcing convenience stores to conceal their displays. We saw cases where a special gadget is required that only store employees can operate in order to release a pack of cigarettes. In bars, cigarettes are hidden from view so that no one can buy them. We have seen some completely ridiculous situations.

In an effective bill, the government will first make sure it has good controls in place, and then proceed to take action. Controls must come before action. Behaviour can be dealt with later. The best way to influence the behaviour of young children is through proactive measures that build esteem and encourage.

It is extremely important not to tell young children that they may not do something, because as soon as you do, what is the first thing a child or an adolescent wants to do? The very thing he was told not to do beckons to him. Rather than set restrictions, it is better to tackle behaviour.

Rather than spend $3 million to fund research centres, the government should take this money and put together kits promoting health, exercise, outdoor activities, anything to keep people from taking up smoking.

Then, the environment has to be tackled. Yesterday evening, we heard how Toronto had gone to some ridiculous lengths. Smoking has apparently been banned in washrooms because they are located in the wrong part of the restaurant.

It must be possible to alter the product. The government must alter the product in order to make it less dangerous and less addictive. It is extremely important that people be aware of the difference between the cigarettes smoked in the past and those available today.

The Liberal government is showing a great weakness in its inability to come up with a global perspective on the hazards of the product, smoking behaviour and the social and physical environment in which all those concerned are evolving: smokers, non-smokers, merchants, health stakeholders, tobacco companies and distribution networks. There must be recognition at the social, political and legislative level that the hazards and addictiveness of tobacco products take priority over banning sponsorships.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Pierrefonds—Dollard Québec

Liberal

Bernard Patry LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-71 today because this issue is very close to my heart.

We all know about the harmful effects of smoking. The correlation between smoking and various forms of cancer affecting the lungs, the throat, the mouth, the larynx, the digestive tract, the stomach and the colon has been more than scientifically proven. The increased risk of heart disease among smokers is also a well known fact.

Today, however, I would like to examine this issue from another point of view, namely the effect of second hand smoke on the health of non-smokers, particularly on the health of children. But first of all, I would like to talk briefly about the history of smoking.

In his book entitled Le tabagisme , Professor Bertrand Dautzenberg tells us that in ancient times, the Greeks and the Romans smoked the pipe, or rolled leaves sometimes, but they did not smoke tobacco because it did not exist. They smoked pear tree leaves, eucalyptus leaves and other plants.

In America, tobacco smoking goes back more than 3,000 years, both in South America and in the Mississippi Valley. Pipes dating back to 1,000 B.C. have been found in South America. The natives called that plant "petum". The name tobacco comes either from

the island of Tobago in the Lesser Antilles where it was cultivated or from the name the natives gave their pipes.

Tobacco, as used by the Incas and the Aztecs during important religious ceremonies, also had the virtue of appeasing hunger and overcoming fatigue. It was also used as a medicinal plant either by itself or in conjunction with coca leaves or other plants.

At this stage, it is important to clarify the terminology because smoking produces three types of smoke. The best known is called mainstream smoke, and it is the smoke that is inhaled by the smoker when he or she draws on the cigarette. Then there is sidestream smoke, which is released into the environment when the smoker is not drawing on the cigarette. Finally, there is second hand smoke, which is exhaled by the smoker.

We have to ask ourselves the following question: which of these different types of smoke, mainstream, sidestream or second hand, is the most harmful? The answer is this: the most toxic type of smoke is the sidestream smoke that is released into the environment, because it undergoes an aging process before it is inhaled. What does the aging of smoke mean? It means that while the cigarette is burning in an ashtray, for example, certain substances such as carbon monoxide decompose and these altered substances are found in greater quantities in side stream smoke than in mainstream smoke.

And what are the effects of these substances on our health and our children's health?

Taking carbon monoxide as an example, everyone knows it decreases the amount of oxygen going to peripheral tissues, but how many people know that benzene is related to the development of acute lymphoblastic leukemia?

Moreover, how many people know that the concentration of nicotine is two to three times greater in sidestream smoke than it is in mainstream smoke? One often wonders how much one can smoke daily without harming other family members, especially children. This is hard to say, because there are different definitions of harm, and many factors involved.

It is easily understood that the smaller the room nonsmokers have to share with smokers, the greater the risk to them. The most dangerous places are on the job and in a car. Yes, a car. One of the first studies in this area, if not the absolute first, dates back to 1981 in Japan, when Professor T. Hiramata proved unequivocally the harmful effects of cigarette smoke on nonsmokers.

Why a study in Japan? First of all, because the Japanese live in very close quarters, more often than not a single room, and at the time of the study a poorly ventilated one. Second, because only 15 per cent of Japanese women smoke, one-fifth of the figure for men: 75 per cent. The study findings demonstrated that lung cancer among nonsmoking women was proportionate to the husband's smoking habit. Women whose husbands smoked were twice as likely to have cancer as women whose husbands did not.

The focus of these studies was lung cancer, but it is most interesting to note that the same study also showed an increased incidence of breast cancer and leukemia in these same couples. All studies agree on this; 330 Canadians died in 1996 from lung cancer caused by someone else's smoking.

I will close on my favourite topic: children. We all have young children or young grandchildren. Here are the facts: cigarette smoke is directly linked to all forms of respiratory disease, from pneumonia, to bronchitis, bronchiolitis, asthma and ear infections. How so? The child inhales nitrous oxides, which increases the sensitivity of its lungs. Children's contact with second hand smoke can have major and serious consequences for the quality of life of our young people in the short, medium and long term.

In fact, children of pre-school age are the most at risk. They are often sick and are much sicker than children were 25 years ago. The phenomenal increase in asthma, for instance, is very disturbing. When children have ear infections, daycare is often blamed, but it has now been proved that the smoke from parents' cigarettes is as much to blame, if not more so, than daycare, with consequences such as future learning disabilities, operations, and so forth.

In concluding, I would like to say that the purpose of my speech today is not only to support this bill unreservedly but also to try and make the Canadian public aware, through my humble contribution, of the very real and harmful effects of second hand smoke and especially of the beneficial impact of a healthy environment.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to point out some very sad facts about Parliament. I note that, in the case of such an important bill, it does not matter what our viewpoint is, we are in Parliament, and in a democracy the best way to oppose an idea is to propose a better one. Today, however, we can take no pride in the fact that the government and the members opposite chose an authoritarian and dictatorial measure that provides very little for freedom of ideas and discussion: the guillotine.

I would like to remind our viewers of what a guillotine means in parliamentary terms. Applying a guillotine limits the time for the proceedings. At the end of the time set aside for debate, whether all the members wishing to speak have spoken or not, the question is put.

The issue of tobacco and its relationship to public health is a complex one. I think our colleague from Rimouski-Témiscouata summed it up well when she said that we in the official opposition

support the objectives sought in general terms, we support about 80 per cent of them.

Bills have objectives and this is why we asked those drafting them to follow policy and use legal terminology in wording the objectives. We agree that it is unacceptable, in 1997, for some 40,000 people to take up smoking, which will ultimately kill them.

We are also aware that smoking is more than just a personal responsibility. If smoking were merely a personal matter, the lawmaker would probably not be concerned and we would not be having today's debate. We also recognize that the community has a responsibility, because the health system pays out hundreds of millions of dollars.

However, there is a discrepancy between the objectives and the means proposed to achieve them. Not only is there a discrepancy, but there is somewhat of a paradox in the fact that the government, while trying to solve a problem, or at least while trying to contribute to solving it, is going to jeopardize major sports and cultural events.

I believe one cannot remain unaffected by what is going on in this industry. I will take Montreal as an example. As you know, Montreal is a favourite venue for cultural and sports events. It is a well known fact. Indeed I believe the member for Saint-Hyacinthe is an avid consumer. In the summer he can be seen wearing a T-shirt and bermuda shorts, casual and yet serious, attending the jazz festival, the Francopholies, and what not. I believe he does not miss any.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Oh no, I do not.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

I say it again, he is always welcome in Montreal.

As you know the sponsoring industry is one that plans ahead. We are not talking about short term planning, a few weeks ahead of time. To give you an idea of the order of magnitude we are talking about, the tobacco industry sponsors a number of sports and cultural events to the tune of close to $60 million.

If the government had been serious, if it had behaved professionally, if it had been consistent in its objectives-there might well exist a link between smoking and advertising on the site of sports events, but what we are saying is that, at the moment, it has not been rigorously proven. This link has not been scientifically established. Although we might suspect there is one.

Just imagine if, as legislators, we were to pass legislation on the basis of approximations, speculations, without sufficient data to support the measures. We are now presented with a bill which, ultimately, could put several sports and cultural events at risk. Why are we concerned? I am concerned first of all as a Montrealer. I think it bears reminding that there are some institutional partners who usually do not dabble in politics. As we speak, there is great effervescence in Montreal. People are in the streets. Not only are they marching, they have the support of several extremely important partners. I am thinking for example of the Convention and Tourism Bureau of Greater Montreal.

The convention and tourism bureau's mandate is to promote tourist activities, not public health. It is not an agency operating in Parliament. Why did it find it appropriate to break silence and join the people who, a few minutes ago, decided to close their businesses and take to the streets of Montreal? It decided to keep silent, but at the same time, to speak volumes down in the street, because this bill is unreasonable.

It is not unreasonable from a public health perspective. Of course we are in favour of any measure aimed at reducing tobacco use. However, for a democrat, the end never justifies the means. It is not true that in order to fight against smoking we have to threaten whole areas of our cultural industry.

Why did the government not provide for a transition period? Why did it not propose some financial compensation? It is too easy to ban, to prohibit without guaranteeing that it will not have a major financial impact.

The jazz festival is an international event. People from all corners of the world come to Montreal to listen to jazz music because that festival's reputation is well established. Out of the festival's total budget of $9.5 million, approximately $2 million come from tobacco sponsorships.

Parliament is not the only place there are fireworks you know; the Benson and Hedges international fireworks competition draws an international jury. I think the parliamentary secretary is well aware of that reality. There is a budget of $1.4 million for the fireworks, of which $1 million comes from sponsorship.

Then there is the Just for Laughs festival, of which Les parlementeries are obviously the finest example; a number of hon. members in this House should stand for election to that bogus parliament: they would surely win.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

More so the people opposite.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

As the hon. member for Lévis said, more so the people opposite. The Just for Laughs festival has a budget of $10 million, of which $1 million is provided by sponsorship. The summer festival in Quebec City has a budget of $4.5 million, of which $500,000 comes from sponsorship. Is there a nicer area than the capital of Quebec to spend your summer? Every summer, I make a point of spending a few days there, meeting different people and enjoying varied activities.

We must set the record straight. Through you, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the parliamentary secretary, who is here in the House, that we support any measure that will reduce smoking.

I have never smoked and I have tried to convince my close relatives to stop smoking. Let me thank my mother and father who stopped smoking two years ago. It is not easy to stop smoking, because there is a dependency involved. The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot stopped smoking four years ago. In our environment, we know of individuals who have succeeded, and they are to be cited as examples.

We know that nicotine creates a dependency. The hon. member for Rimouski-Témiscouata reminded us that manufacturers, producers have played on this dependency; this clearly shows that it is not easy to stop smoking. Smoking is a plague that causes intoxication.

It is all fine and well to be concerned about it in terms of health, but for goodness sake we should not try to solve a problem by creating another one. The minister will find the official opposition supportive, in matters of public health needs, but we ask him to provide for transition mechanisms and to help the industry by making available to it some other mechanism whereby the activities can continue. I think this is reasonable.

If this bill is passed, Montreal will go through another economic crisis, and we have a duty to deny our support to anything that could lead to that.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak on the bill. I would like to raise a few important notices.

Three years ago the government had an ideal opportunity to do something about the horrendous smoking situation. We were faced with the terrible situation of smuggling occurring primarily in Quebec.

The government, however, chose to take a path that compromised the lives of Canadian children at the expense of political gain and of political courage. It chose to lower the taxation and cost of cigarettes in an effort to address the smuggling issue.

In terms of decreasing the smuggling of tobacco, that issue was addressed because it decreased. However the cost was the increase in consumption and the increase in the number of young people smoking by the amount of a quarter of million every single year.

Over the last three years the government by lowering the price of cigarettes introduced a quarter of a million new children to cigarette smoking every single year, or 750,000 children over the last three years, half of whom will die prematurely and virtually all of whom will suffer diseases, mortality and morbidity at a rate much higher than Canadians who do not smoke.

The smuggling issue is an interesting one. Smuggling not only involves tobacco. It also involves guns, drugs, people, alcohol and cigarettes. The amount of cigarettes smuggled was all that was decreased. The conduits of smuggling existed as they do today. The solution we proposed three years ago would have effectively decreased the consumption of cigarettes and would have addressed the smuggling issue.

Our proposal was to bring the export tax to where it was in 1992. The Conservative government of the day brought in an export tax of $8 per carton. In six weeks smuggling of cigarettes plummeted almost 70 per cent. The tobacco companies, fearful of a decrease in their profits, said if the government of the day did not remove that export tax they would leave the country.

What happened? The Conservative government of the day buckled under pressure of the tobacco companies, removed the export tax, and consumption went right back up. The smuggling issue was not addressed. If we put on a tobacco export tax smuggling will go down.

Also the law should be enforced. No one speaks about the people who live in these areas, many of whom are on aboriginal reserves on the Quebec-U.S. border. No one speaks about law-abiding innocent individuals living on these reserves who have to put up with thugs engaged in the movement and trafficking of illicit cigarettes as well as alcohol, weapons and drugs. Much of this is tied into criminal gangs in the United States. It is not run by law-abiding people. It is run by thugs and crooks.

The single most important thing we could do is decrease consumption. I do not care about the issues of sponsorship or education. Education is important but unless people have been living in a cave for the last 30 years they know smoking is bad for their health. Smoking is addictive and smoking kills. It is not a problem of education. Cost is the single most important determining factor in consumption, particularly in children. There is ample scientific evidence showing that the supply and demand curve for consumption is very elastic in price.

To decrease consumption tobacco taxes should be what they were before January 1994. In that way consumption will decrease. Revenues to the government will increase and health care costs will go down. It is unlike any other tax. We are a party firmly in favour of decreasing taxation.

Tobacco presents a different situation. If tobacco taxes can be what they were as of January 1994, consumption will go down. Costs to the taxpayer will go down in terms of health care costs. By lowering the taxation rate government revenues have gone down and the costs to the taxpayer have escalated dramatically in terms of health care.

With respect to the sponsorship issue the members of the Bloc Quebecois like to trumpet, let us call a spade a spade. I do not think anyone in the House has been deluded into thinking for one moment that tobacco companies are sponsoring the Grand Prix and

the Players International Tennis Championship out of the goodness of their hearts.

The tobacco companies sponsor events like the Montreal Jazz Festival, the Players International Tennis Championship and the Grand Prix so that children will take up cigarette smoking. The only reason any company invests in advertising is so that people will buy their product. The product in this case is a cancer causing, debilitating, addictive substance called tobacco.

There is ample evidence to show in countries such as New Zealand, Great Britain and France tobacco sponsorship has been banned from sports and arts and cultural festivals. The festivals did not decline or go away. Rather they thrived because they found sponsors in other areas.

There is no reason to believe that cultural and sporting events would leave Canada. Where would they go? Would they go to the United States? I think not. The United States is in the process of banning tobacco advertising in sponsorship and cultural events. Will they move to Europe? Of course not because it is banned in most countries there. Where will they go?

It is a false promise trumpeted by the tobacco companies that cultural and sporting events will leave Canada because tobacco companies are not allowed to sponsor them. They will not leave Canada.

The government can propose some alternative solutions to ensure cultural events survive quite nicely, perhaps by using some interim funding from tobacco taxes. By increasing the taxes we would decrease consumption, particularly among children.

Education about tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana and other drugs including solvents is very important. Money from tobacco taxes could be applied to early childhood education to educate children in Kindergarten that smoking, drinking, solvents, cocaine, pot and heroin are all very bad and can ruin their lives.

If the government proposed that along with its provincial counterparts a co-operative and productive situation would result. There would be a decrease in consumption of tobacco without compromising the lives of Canadians and without compromising our sports and cultural events. We are sensitive to that and believe the proposals put forward in the past will ensure cultural events continue and the consumption of tobacco decreases.

In closing, three years ago the government had an opportunity to address the smoking epidemic in our midst. Instead of making the situation better it made it worse by making cigarettes more affordable for the children of our great nation. It is a terrible legacy to leave Canadians. It is the single worst piece of legislation affecting the health of Canadians I can remember in the last 35 to 40 years. I cannot think of a piece of legislation that has been more damaging to the health and welfare of Canadians than what the government did back in February 1994.

Amendments can be made today in the House. However the government needs to have the courage to stand up to the smoking lobbyists and tobacco companies and say "We are not going to take it anymore. We are going to address this health epidemic. We are going to do it for the betterment of all Canadians".

The proposals are out there. We and other Canadians have proposed them. Now take it and use it.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I usually rise to say I am pleased to participate in the debate on whatever bill is before us at the time but, in this case, I must say I am not so pleased to speak on a bill that is a direct attack on and which threatens the very existence of cultural and sports events, particularly in Quebec.

This is a bill befitting fundamentalists. All this time, we thought the rise of fundamentalism was centred in the Muslim world; we must recognize that we need not look any further than this place to find fundamental fundamentalism. The minister who introduced this bill that may well kill cultural events like the Montreal Jazz Festival and sports events like the Montreal Grand Prix car race is the same minister who, a little over one year ago, had the brilliant idea of legislating to prevent us from eating and producing raw milk cheese in Canada. There is a limit.

One would think this minister turned into the ayatollah of the House of Commons: he wants to run our lives, preventing us from doing this, that and the other. What kind of society will this make? Where are the ministers and members from Quebec when they see a minister from Atlantic Canada jeopardizing an important part of Montreal's economy? Where are they? Where is the Minister of Finance and member for LaSalle-Émard? He has been absent since the start of our debate on this issue and, every time it is raised, he runs away and hides in the back.

Where is the Minister of Labour and hon. member for Saint-Léonard, our great defender of parmesan cheese? When his parmesan cheese was attacked, he was outraged. Where is he today, while the Jazz Festival, the Just for Laughs Festival, the Montreal Grand Prix and the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix are being put on the line? Where is the great upholder of civil liberties? He is probably eating spaghetti sprinkled with parmesan cheese. He has traded away all the major cultural and sporting events held in Montreal-$30

million out of the $60 million spent by Canadian sponsors-, all that for a spoonful of parmesan cheese.

Where is the hon. member for Outremont and Secretary of State in charge of the Federal Office of Regional Development for Quebec? We do not hear him anymore. Where is the great defender of Montreal's economy? He is also in hiding. He has been brought to heel.

This is unacceptable. During the second mandate of the Trudeau government, there were 74 Liberal nitwits in the House and today we have a bunch of nitwits, Liberals again, who are afraid to get up and defend those who voted for them.

This is no small affair. They are jeopardizing events such as the Just for Laughs Festival, the Montreal Grand Prix, the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix, of which my colleague, the hon. member for Trois-Rivières, is an ardent supporter, the Montreal and Toronto film festivals, the Montreal and Vancouver jazz festivals, the Benson & Hedges International, the Players Tennis International, and many other cultural and sporting events which are held in Quebec and in Canada.

In Montreal alone, cultural events represent 2,000 jobs. Given the unemployment rate in Montreal right now, this is disgraceful. Quebec's Liberal members across the way, the 1996-97 crop, should be ashamed of themselves for not speaking up against this bill, for not asking the Atlantic Ayatollah to withdraw such an fundamentalist bill. Soon, Quebecers and Canadians will have to ask permission just to walk.

How could they introduce such a bill?

It reminds me of the measures taken during the prohibition. It is a return to a terrible ultra-conservatism that must be rejected. This government behaves like a dictatorship. It tells us what to eat, what to drink and what to listen to. Canadians have had enough of these absurd measures. This bill is totally and utterly ridiculous.

For the public to mobilize so quickly, as we saw yesterday and as we will see today in Montreal and in Toronto, this legislation has to be utterly ridiculous.

We are not talking about peanuts here. For the Montreal jazz festival, a $1.5 million sponsorship is at stake, at a time when the government is making deep cuts in the budgets for the poor and the unemployed. Now, it will put 2,000 people out of work in Montreal, just like that. This really takes the cake.

The same goes for the fireworks festival, which stands to lose a $1 million sponsorship. Where will organizers find the money? It will be the end of this event in Montreal. The Just for Laughs festival will also lose $1 million in sponsorships. And we all know that money does not grow on trees.

Through such a senseless bill, the government is cutting off funding for major events which generate up to $200 million in direct and indirect benefits. In the Montreal area alone, about $200 million a year and 2,000 jobs are at stake.

This is a second-rate fundamentalist government. Soon, because of the government's actions, Montreal's unemployment rate will continue to grow instead of decreasing. This is unacceptable.

Where is the Minister of Human Resources Development, the hon. member for Papineau-Saint-Michel, who makes it a point of honour to rise and supposedly stand up for Quebec? Where is when we are discussing this bill?

Our favourite constitutionalist minister-

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Guy Chrétien Bloc Frontenac, QC

He is with Guy Bertrand.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

-where is the hon. member for Saint-Laurent-Cartierville now? Where is this great champion of Quebec and of territorial integrity? Where is he? He is not speaking. And our Minister of Labour, where is he?

The economy of Montreal and the economy of a large part of Quebec are being devastated by this government. This bill is totally unacceptable. My colleagues and I are ready to go all the way because we cannot understand how the government could introduce this bill, how it could deliberately jeopardize all cultural and sports events sponsored by tobacco companies.

We will never accept this bill and we are ready to fight to the bitter end to defend the interests of Quebec and those of its workers. That is why it is so important for the population to continue to mobilize against it and to let this fundamentalist government know of their opposition. It takes a ridiculous government, with such ridiculous ministers as the health minister, to introduce such ridiculous bills as this one. How could the government agree to implement this bill?

You can count on us. Quebecers, and especially the 2,000 workers who depend on the many cultural and sports events held in the Montreal area, can count on the Bloc Quebecois. We will stand up for them with all our energy.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Mr. Speaker, just like my colleague for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot has just said, this is one of the rare occasions when I am not pleased to take the floor to deal with a bill. This bill will be really detrimental to the economic health of Quebec, and to the well-being of an important part of the Canadian economy, the Montreal area, more particularly during the summer tourist season.

Like my colleague for Rimouski-Témiscouata, I think it is very important to stress, as a first point in any speech, that the Bloc Quebecois supports part of Bill C-71, and indeed most of it.

Like all Canadians, the Bloc Quebecois takes to heart the health of Canadians and Quebecers and would like to protect the young from smoking and being hooked on cigarettes.

The Bloc Quebecois has supported the principle of this bill because it thought wise amendments would be made and tangible improvements would make the bill more palatable for communities. But that was not to be. The intent of Bill C-71 should have been to prevent the promotion of smoking among our kids. What kind of prevention does this bill provide? The bill could have proposed a partial ban on cultural and sports sponsorships instead of a total ban.

I would really like to see the government party tabling a study in this House showing how many young Canadians started to smoke after watching the fireworks from the Jacques-Cartier bridge. Or how many youngsters took up smoking after watching a tennis match at the new Du Maurier stadium or at the old Jarry park? Nobody was ever able to prove young people started smoking after attending such events and noboby ever will.

I would also like to know what the Liberal Party's objectives are, with such a bill, in terms of a decrease in the number of young smokers 3, 4 or 5 years down the road. If, at this point in time, 10,000 young people take up smoking every month, and this is a figure I just made up, what impact will the new bill have on the number of young people who will stop smoking in the years to come because of the ban? Will we have 2,000 or 3,000 fewer smokers than we have now? They will not tell us, because, first of all, they do not know, and second, there will not be any decrease.

Instead of focusing on prevention, education and awareness, the bill neglects these issues in favour of a type of coercion that is totally off the mark. They are not targeting the people who take up smoking, but rather hitting on those who benefit from the sponsorship.

The sponsors have a very important 1 per cent share of the market. The Bloc Quebecois and I believe that tobacco companies use their ads to target those who have a favourite brand. If you smoke a specific brand of cigarettes and you attend a sponsored event, you may be tempted to switch brands, and in my view that is why tobacco companies sponsor these events. But will people be tempted to take up smoking, that is another matter. Thus, those we want to target are the tobacco companies and sports and cultural events, not young people as originally intended.

The Bloc Quebecois opposes Bill C-71 at third reading simply because the primary objective-to prevent smoking among young Quebecers and young Canadians-will not be achieved. But there is more. Our Liberal colleagues probably did not watch television this afternoon and see the success of the protest in Montreal. All retailers and stakeholders in the Greater Montreal area were asked to let business come to a symbolic stop between twelve noon and 12.15 p.m. to show what Montreal could look like after the act comes into force.

The operation was a tremendous success. These people are not sovereignists or wicked separatists. They are restaurant owners, hotel operators, taxi drivers, people from all walks of life who benefit from these sponsorships, from the economic benefits generated by tourist attractions and events like the Grand Prix and the fireworks.

The demonstration was a great success. People with very different interests got together to try and make the government understand that its bill does not make any sense, especially for the people in Montreal but also for those in Toronto and Vancouver.

Moreover, they are saying: "It is nothing by a smoke screen. The Montreal Grand Prix will stay in Montreal and it will only change names. It will not be called the Players Grand Prix anymore". Again this morning, we heard the Grand Prix promoter say on television that, contrary to what the Liberals are saying, it is not true that the Grand Prix will simply change names and major sponsors. Perhaps it will be called the Cottonelle Grand Prix. But it remains to be seen whether this company will agree to sponsor the Grand Prix.

If, for example, milk producers-who now sponsor the Tour de l'île-decided to sponsor another event that lost the sponsorship of a tobacco company, the subsequent shift in sponsorships would indirectly affect the cultural and sporting events currently benefiting from the current arrangements. The affected events will either disappear or lose money to other events and activities. There will be an indirect impact on sporting and cultural events.

Therefore, I believe that the Bloc Quebecois has clearly showed that Bill C-71 does not achieve its main purpose, which is to prevent young people from starting to smoke. The reason we will be voting against this bill is simply that, unlike the Liberals, we care about the health of Canadians and that the Liberals are missing the mark with this bill. It is not because we are not concerned about or interested in health. We were told that this bill was mainly about health. This is not the case, but it will have an impact on the economic health of sports and cultural events.

I began by asking how many children started smoking after watching the Benson & Hedges fireworks. I think that there are not many and the Liberal Party could not introduce them to us. Let us see who the other sponsors could be. The major banks were mentioned. They already sponsor some events. They do not sponsor the events we are talking about here because they do not have a direct interest in them. The pool of potential sponsors is

already spread thin. The government wants us to believe that there will be other sponsors, but it could not prove it.

Demonstrators gathered very quickly, and the Bloc Quebecois has noticed that, in spite of its agreement in principle to protect the health of Canadians, the government does not have the will to protect it at the present time. For all these reasons, the Bloc Quebecois and all the people of Montreal have until Thursday-we have been gagged because the government does not want to let us speak-to express their opposition and try to knock some sense into the government members across the way and the ministers from the Montreal area, who will have to justify their decision in the next election.

When people see the unemployment rate go up and when students lose their summer jobs because the events no longer exist, we will go to the ridings of the Minister of Human Resources Development and the Minister of Immigration, we will go to the riding of Outremont, which is represented by the hon. cigar-smoking minister who tried to express his opposition but was rebuffed by the majority of his colleagues, to explain to the people why Montreal went downhill after this bill was passed.

It is still time because we have 48 hours left to make the Liberal members understand that their bill, in its present form, does nothing for the health of Canadians, but is detrimental to the economic health of Montreal. That is why we will vote against this bill.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Guy Chrétien Bloc Frontenac, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is with great interest and passion that I want to side with my friend and colleague, the member for Lévis, who has made a superhuman effort this week to bring the present government to change its mind in spite of the firm commitment made by the health minister, who invited Canadians to vote against his party if he did not succeed in having Bill C-71 adopted before the next elections.

I must pay tribute to the member for Lévis because, once again, this government is picking on Quebec when things are going well. Quebecers have adopted a philosophy that this government seems to be doing everything it can to destroy.

The best example of that was ten month ago, when the same health minister wanted to ban the importation and production of raw milk cheese in Canada, knowing that Quebec accounted for 90 per cent of raw milk cheese consumption and production.

The labour minister, the member for Saint-Léonard who is of Italian origin, realized from his seat in the House that his friend, the health minister, wanted to deprive him of his parmesan cheese imported from Italy. The government changed its mind on that issue and it will do the same on Bill C-71 because at this very moment, in Montreal, all the people who count have joined forces to save their cultural, sports and artistic events.

I made a list of ten or so events that are threatened by this bill and I would like to read them to you: the Montreal Grand Prix, the Benson and Hedges fireworks, the jazz festival, the Trois-Rivières Grand Prix, the Festival Just for Laughs, the Valleyfield and Ville-Marie regatta, the Quebec summer festival and the international tennis championships in Montreal. Do you know that tobacco companies invest some $60 million a year to support these kinds of events which, without such sponsorship, could not exist? Of these $60 million, $30 million are spent in Quebec.

Is it just a coincidence that this Liberal government is picking on Quebec once again? I doubt it. Yesterday, the Prime Minister said in the House that it was to save lives in Canada, because 40,000 people die every year from smoking, and increasing numbers of young people are taking up smoking at a very early age.

Mr. Speaker, through you, I ask the Prime Minister, and I look him in the eye as I ask the question, if he really wants to help our young people, why does he not make sure that his own regulations are enforced in his country? Cigarettes must be sold to adults only, to people 18 years of age and older. Do you know how many inspectors there are to enforce this law in Canada? There are 40. Since Quebec represents one quarter of the population, it should have 10 of these inspectors, if it is not unfortunate. Ten inspectors to check whether cigarettes are being sold to those under 18 years of age.

Yesterday, I asked how many establishments had been found breaking the law in the last five years. Government members were unable to tell me. They were probably ashamed to give me the figure. There are regulations that are not even being enforced, and they want to introduce other legislation, other regulations that will privatize, I was going to say deprive Quebec of major events and, to top it all, that will eliminate several thousand jobs, jobs that are often held by students.

In 1993, along with the promise to scrap the GST, did the government not have as one of its slogans "jobs, jobs, jobs"? The unemployment rate has been hovering around 10 per cent for over 40 months now. Month after month, since this government took office, unemployment remained at the same level. It is really the first time since the economic depression of the 1930s that unemployment has reached 10 per cent, with 1.5 million unemployed. Bill C-71 will probably cause 2,000 more unemployed workers, although everybody agrees that the fact Jacques Villeneuve has a cigarette logo on his clothes will not induce youngsters to smoke.

Indeed, our good old Prime Minister was proud to have his picture taken with Jacques Villeneuve under a Players sign. He was hoping this picture would go around Canada. He was not reluctant

to be photographed just in front of an ad for Players. This shows his double standards.

The member for Brome-Missisquoi, in the Eastern Townships, said he tried to convince the banks to take over from the tobacco companies. We checked, and he made only one call to one Ottawa office. This is really not serious. Today, the banks told us that this was definitely out of the question, because they are not active in this field.

The member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot who spoke before me referred to the fact that there used to be 74 nitwits from the Liberal Party, and now there are 20 such nitwits from Quebec, not one of whom will rise in defence of Quebec's interests, but fortunately, since she does not have to answer to the Prime Minister, Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette is getting ready to oppose Bill C-71 in the Senate, and has asked her colleagues not to support this bill. We hope that the Prime Minister will backtrack or that this bill will die on the Order Paper, because of the coming general election.

The Minister of Health made a commitment three months ago, saying that if he could not get that bill passed, he invited all Canadians to vote against the Liberal Party of Canada. I am going to top that. Through you, Mr. Speaker, I invite all Canadians, especially Quebecers, to teach a lesson to this political party, which almost reflects badly on Quebec. The little guy from Shawinigan is saying that he will go and take the pulse of his riding in the taverns and the shopping centers. I invite him to go to Shawinigan this weekend and, if he has the time, to stop off in Trois-Rivières on the way to find out what people think of him now, how people rate him. I think his popularity is at its lowest point.

I therefore invite the Minister of Health and the Prime Minister to backtrack. Admitting they made a mistake, as they did in the case of the raw milk cheese, will improve their public image.

I just need another ten seconds to conclude. During a press conference in Montreal last Sunday, the Minister of Labour said they were going to solve the tobacco problem, then the liquor problem. His colleague, the hon. member from right across the river, the President of the Treasury Board, did not agree. He told his distinguished colleague not to overdo it on the liquor issue, that they were going to lose too many votes. They are going to deal first with the tobacco problem. This just goes to show how they are running the country now. They are just coasting along, which is nothing for Canadians to be proud of.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker,I would like to point out that we are at the report stage of Bill C-71. Bills have a first reading and a second reading-and let us keep in mind that, with Bill C-71, the government saw to it that there was no debate on second reading; it was referred directly to committee. Now they are trying the same thing on for size at report stage, putting a gag on us. We will have a time limit for discussing this vital matter.

In the streets of Montreal, Trois-Rivières and Quebec City, people are questioning the government's desire to put an end to virtually all of the major cultural and sporting events with tobacco company sponsorship. It is important not to use this issue as fodder for stirring people up. It must be kept in mind that the Bloc Quebecois voted in favour of the principle of this bill at second reading. The Prime Minister said yesterday that he no longer understood Bloc members, that we should be more openminded. When a bill is debated on second reading, it must be realized that it is the principle that is being addressed.

True, we believe measures to protect the health of Quebecers and Canadians are important. Perhaps 80 per cent of the bill concerns things we consider important, particularly measures relating to the power to regulate tobacco products, measures relating to access to products, packaging and promotion. There are a number of measures the Bloc Quebecois supports, but there are some which need more work by members who should do some original thinking on the subject and perhaps go back to committee to look at some solutions to the sponsorship question. It is not true that there is a straightforward solution such as the one contained in the bill.

For instance, the jazz festival, with a total budget of $9.5 million, receives $1.5 million in sponsorship fees, which is 15 per cent of its budget. Today, 15 per cent often means the difference between cancelling an event or not, or guaranteeing that it offers quality programming and can attract a satisfactory audience. In the case of the fireworks, sponsorship fees represent $1 million out of a budget of $1.4 million. Clearly, without that sponsorship the event could be in serious trouble. The Festival Just for Laughs has $1 million in sponsorship fees out of a budget of $10 million. The Festival d'été de Québec gets $500,000 out of a budget of $4.5 million.

In each case, banning sponsorship or imposing conditions that will scare away sponsors will have the same result. So we are certainly not saying that we are against the health of Quebecers and Canadians and that we do not care about our children's health. Of course we want everyone to be healthy, and we realize that it is important for our quality of life. It is also important in economic terms, because prevention saves a lot of money in the long run.

Today, however, at the report stage we must consider amendments or proposals that would make this bill a piece of viable legislation, something sound that would pass the test of time but not at the expense of the people who have the jobs that would

disappear as a result of this decision. There are other aspects in the bill that deserve far more attention than they are getting right now, and there certainly should be no time limitation in this respect, and I am referring, for instance, to the matter of regulatory powers.

We should learn from the legislation passed during the past 15, 20 or 30 years, where the government basically tried to make up our minds for us, to regulate everything so people would no longer have to make up their own minds. I think people have realized there is no future in this approach, that there are no answers. We need an approach that emphasizes educating the public so that people can consider the various options and are free to do what they think is best.

Sometimes, reversing the onus of proof is not necessarily a wise decision. Some more fine tuning is necessary in that respect.

Why is the government putting a gag on this debate? It is now early March. There will be three weeks of debate between now and Easter, so we would have enough time to do a thorough job and end up with a bill everyone can be proud of. Let us not forget that, during debate at second reading, there was a fairly extensive agreement in principle, but there are problems that have yet to be resolved, that are still on the table. I would not like anyone to say that we are voting against the bill because we oppose the fact that the government wants to improve the health of Quebecers and Canadians. That is not the issue at all.

The issue is how to go about creating a law that improves the health of Canadians or is likely to, without doing so to the detriment of events that create jobs and provide people with reasonable situations? We cannot take away with one hand what we are giving with the other. There has to be a balance, and the bill is not satisfactory in this regard.

How can we go about finding other solutions in the area of sponsorship? Are there other forms of sponsorship we could consider, which would be attractive and sure of a market for the future? Could a support fund be set up and used? Could there be an extension so that businesses had the time to adapt and make adjustments? Could the $20 million used over the past year in the flag campaign not be set aside for this purpose? If this money were put in a fund to lessen the impact on sponsors so events could be held, would this not be a solution?

We may not have all the solutions right now, but one of them is not rushing this bill through, without examining things carefully and seeing how to go about protecting sporting and cultural events, especially those in Quebec. You may know that out of the $60 million invested in sponsoring this kind of event in Canada $30 million go to Quebec.

Is it chance, is it an unfortunate result, or is it a lack of sensitivity to Quebec's concerns, a lack of caring on the part of the present government? In any case, the result is that these cultural and sports events with economic spinoffs mostly in Quebec will be affected by this bill, which in turn will have a very negative impact on jobs.

Montreal is a city rich in cultural events and tourist attractions throughout the summer. They are held one after the other, creating non-stop economic spinoffs. The measures provided by this bill will result in adjustments of such magnitude that some events might have to be cancelled. We are not trying to stir up trouble when we say that we must give it more thought. We must review the situation and try to find solutions.

The Bloc Quebecois has asked the Minister of Health and the Minister of Canadian Heritage to offer financial measures in compensation and to act as politicians responsible for their actions, but we have had no response from the health minister, who has been stonewalling all the demands from the Bloc and other witnesses with similar requests.

What is the reason for such pigheadedness? Why is it so urgent to find a short term solution to this problem? This we cannot ascertain for the moment, but to conclude I will invite the government to think about the political impact of the steps it is taking now. Today it saw in the streets of Montreal and elsewhere the ire directed at its bill. I believe this is an argument it will listen to even if it does not want to listen to other more economic ones.

For all these reasons, I urge the government to think twice about this, to change its position and offer solutions that will allow sports and cultural events to survive and have an adequate economic impact in the years to come.

Tobacco ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maurice Godin Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-71, the Tobacco Act. This gives me the opportunity to explain to constituents in the riding of Châteauguay where my party and I stand on this bill.

Concerning the principle of this bill, as we have said many times, we voted for it at second reading. Indeed, I feel it is important to inform and educate people and eliminate the subliminal propaganda aimed at children. We know that tobacco use has an impact on the health of Quebecers and Canadians. That is why the Bloc Quebecois gave its approval in principle at second reading, as long as changes were made to the way the products could be displayed in the stores, that the regulations were tabled immediately and that more leeway was given for sponsorships, but this is not the case.

We intend to vote against this bill at third reading. While we support the principle of regulating the use of tobacco, we do not agree with the measures associated with signs, particularly with regard to sponsor identification. We also have a problem with the future regulations, because they give the minister too much leeway in the implementation of this bill and the way the products are to be displayed in the stores does not meet our demands.

As I was saying, the negative impact of tobacco use on the health of Quebecers and Canadians has been proven and demonstrated. This Liberal government is mistaken if it thinks that banning sponsorships is the solution. Moreover, we know that many Liberal members, and also senators, have their doubts about the bill this government is getting ready to pass. However, they do not have enough backbone to defend Quebec.

The government must be really out of touch to think that smokers will give up their habits if Benson & Hedges stops funding the fireworks. How can it imagine that non-smokers will start smoking simply because events such as the Grand Prix in Montreal are sponsored by tobacco companies? We do not need advanced courses in marketing to understand that sponsorships are an extra advertising tool for the brand, and not for the decision to start smoking.

Would it be dreaming in technicolour to think, as the labour minister told Liberals gathered in Quebec City last weekend, that other sponsors could take over from the tobacco companies? That will not happen and, contrary to what the minister said, it is not blackmail on the part of tobacco companies. We, in the Bloc Quebecois, believe that several international events are threatened.

I would like to give us more food for thought in debating this bill. Little has been said about the therapeutic aspect of the various cultural and sports events sponsored by tobacco companies. Has consideration been given to how beneficial these events bringing the people of Quebec together can be? These are excellent opportunities for communities from various backgrounds to meet at one given place to share each in their own way experiences that are often quite meaningful.

Often, families and other groups that make up Quebec's society get together for such events. There is no doubt that all these events provide a break from routine, rest and entertainment. It would be most unfortunate that such festive reunions would be killed in the name of ensuring the well-being of Quebec's society. The Minister of Health should be sensitive to this reality, because it affects the mental health of an entire community.

Let us not delude ourselves into thinking that we will be able to undo the harm done after losing the only Formula I Grand Prix race in North America. Bear in mind that, in stubbornly rushing this bill through, the Liberals are forgetting their promise for jobs, jobs, jobs. I agree with my hon. colleague from Rimouski-Témiscouata, who suggested that the Minister of Health was out of touch with the reality and economy in Quebec and that the Prime Minister should get involved.

Is there anyone in this government who takes Quebec's interests to heart? I hope to see Liberal members from Quebec rise for the first time to oppose this bill that will seriously affect Quebec's economy.

Do not tell us that this bill has the support of the people of Quebec. It is not true. For example, a SOM- Le Soleil poll conducted last December showed that close to three quarters of the adult population in the Quebec City region were opposed to the provisions contained in this bill. Moreover, at noon today, merchants from downtown Montreal held a protest against this bill, which will adversely affect the restaurant, tourism and business industries. The Montreal Chamber of Commerce stated its opposition to the Liberal government's bill by calling it a fundamentalist measure.

We must say it loud and clear to Quebecers: this bill goes beyond the laudable goal of fighting tobacco consumption. It will directly affect Montreal's sports and cultural events. It will make them disappear, thus eliminating a whole industry in the city's economy.

This is a sad record for a government that is about to call a general election. Chances are the upcoming polls will be very revealing for the Bloc, which really looks after the interests of Quebecers. The bill also reflects a favourite tactic of this Liberal government. I am referring to the postponement, until after the general election, of certain irritants such as the implementation of clauses 24(2) and 24(3) on sponsorship. This is a tactic frequently used by the Minister of Finance, and it most certainly inspired his colleague, the Minister of Health.

Even though some measures are being postponed, international events such as the Montreal Grand Prix will be in jeopardy as early as this year, because of certain clauses of the bill dealing with issues such as broadcasting and communication media.

For all these reasons, I will oppose the bill at third reading, and I urge all members to do likewise. We will vote against this bill at third reading.

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1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I believe the hon. member for Macleod wishes to speak to group 2. The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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1:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.