House of Commons Hansard #153 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was income.

Topics

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a real pleasure to try and speak to this bill. I am completely confused.

It is really quite incredible to sit here and listen to this debate today on Bill C-93. It strikes me as more than a little odd that in

just about the last two and a half hours we have managed to move ahead about a year and a half. About two and a half hours ago we were debating Bill C-92 which dealt with implementing certain aspects of the 1996 budget. Here we are now moving at the speed of light and dealing with Bill C-93 and the implementation of certain facets of the 1997 budget. We are moving ahead very quickly.

In replying to this legislation, I noticed that once again the Liberal government is doing exactly the same thing that it has become renowned for doing over the past three and a half years. It is using every procedural tactic possible to stifle debate in the House of Commons, particularly today. Rather than face the public honestly and try to shut down debate as it normally does with time allocation, it has opted to use another procedure and shuffle these two bills off to committee, regardless of the fact that the principle of these bills has already been decided. I listened to a couple of Liberal members make their presentations. The hon. member for Durham said something to the effect that it has taken us a long time to get to where we are today.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Three years.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Exactly. That is what I was going to say. It is not such a long time to a lot of Canadians. Canadians can remember back to balanced budgets. Canadians can remember back to a time when, even though wages were substantially lower, they had a lot more of their income at their disposal at the end of the day.

The hon. member for Durham went on to say that he came here to improve the financial situation. He spoke in glowing terms of how he was so proud of the Liberal record over the past 3.5 years. The budget we are talking about in Bill C-93 is the fourth budget since the Liberals came to power following the 1993 election. He spoke as though he was quite proud.

I wonder if Canadians watching the debate today are equally proud of another $111 billion worth of debt. The Liberals do not talk about that. They do not talk about the fact that interest on the debt is by far the single largest expenditure for the federal government and for taxpayers.

When we talk about the federal government it is important to understand there is only one taxpayer in the country. One person is paying the bill. Some seem to operate under an illusion in this place. They are insulated. They think the government is providing these services and programs. They turn to government to look for direction and for hope for the future when in reality it is the people of the country who are providing all this for themselves. Sometimes the old parties seem to forget this fundamental fact.

The Liberal member for Huron-Bruce talked about two of the goals the Liberals had when they were elected in 1993. It was job growth and controlling the deficit. Once again the hon. member, as did his previous colleagues, spoke in glowing terms of how far we have come.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Okanagan Centre, BC

With 1.5 million unemployed.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Exactly. Why are 1.5 million people still unemployed if the Liberals have done such a great job of jobs, jobs, jobs? That was one of their big promises.

Let us look at their two big promises in the 1993 election. One was jobs, jobs, jobs. We have 1.5 million people unemployed or two million to three million unemployed people with the ones out there who have given up looking for work. They have simply given up and are no longer even included in the unemployment statistics. There is no hope left in them to be out there seeking a job. Why are they so proud of that?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Okanagan Centre, BC

Are they proud of their tax increases too?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

That is right. They talk about the fact that there have been no tax increases. When they were on this side of the House they very clearly understood there were two ways to increase taxation. There is the honest way, where they increase the tax rate and take the heat from it publicly. Or, there is the sneaky way where they do it by plugging some so-called tax loopholes and with excise taxes and other such taxes. That is the way the government has opted to go.

I do not believe for a minute Canadian people will to be fooled by this, not for a minute. It is them at the end of the day, the end of the week and the end of the month who have less and less money to spend on essentials: food, homes, gasoline for their vehicle to get to and from work, and raising their children.

We must look at the real facts if we are to discuss the 1997 budget and the deficit. Both Liberal members across the way revealed quite correctly that the deficit had come down from $42 billion when they came to power in 1993 to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $19 billion today.

They look at that and say: "What a wonderful achievement. We are on the road to victory". Let us look at how that was accomplished. It was accomplished by $24 billion in increased tax revenue achieved in a number of ways. I spoke two hours ago to the 1996 budget and referred to the fact that a substantial amount of the increase was because of something called bracket creep.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

The finance minister?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

No, not the finance minister. There is a system of bracket creep. When the Liberals got into government they refused to index to the inflation rate, even though they complained about it when they were in opposition and the Tories were doing this type of thing. It is a sneaky way to increase tax revenue. They complained about it very volubly when they were on this side. When they got over to the other side they recognized it was a way in which to continue to gather in more and more tax dollars from Canadians, $24 billion more annually than when they took office. They have cut $7 billion from the Canada health and social transfer.

In Bill C-93 they are talking about the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, an $800 million program over five years. They talk about it as though it will be the answer. They hold it up as the be all and end all. The fact of the matter is that hospitals have closed and highly trained and skilled doctors have moved to other countries because there are not the opportunities here there should be, due to their cuts.

They have cut $7 billion on one side but on the other side they will initiate a few small new programs. I suspect they will be highly bureaucratic programs. The Liberals are talking about a board of 15 new patronage appointments that will necessary to operate the organization. That is typical of the government. That too highlights the problems and the differences.

As Canadians head toward the next election the choice will to be increasingly clear. They can choose big government, big spending, big taxes, big bureaucracy, more and more government intrusion into their everyday lives, or they can choose smaller government, balanced budgets and lower spending and tax cuts. That will be their choices. It will be made very clear as we go into the next election.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

My apologies. Now it is really the turn of the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to finally be able to speak to the bill on budget implementation.

In this bill we find more of the smoke and mirrors the government has been using on the whole issue of fighting the deficit. For a long time now, the federal government has been claiming that it has been fighting the deficit effectively. Yet it must be seen-and this is something the people of my riding have understood, and are telling me-that the federal government has fought the deficit in the following way: it let the surplus in the employment insurance fund build up, deciding to take out $2 billion in the next five years and reinject only $800 million. This means a deficit of $1.2 billion at a time when we need all the incentives we can get to create employment. There is no adjustment included in the present bill.

What is more, transfer payments are being cut. Today, all of the provinces, Quebec, Ontario, the others, are faced with problems that require them to make major cuts in health and education. This is always the result of actions by the federal government.

This past week we learned that the federal government has not cleaned up its own act. Since 1994, the objective had been to reduce expenditures in the order of 19 per cent. Today we see that the reduction has been about 9 per cent. So there is another 10 per cent that has not been saved.

We are talking about $8 billion worth of expenditures. If this amount had actually been saved, the government could have taken the pressure off the employment insurance fund and arranged for more money to be invested in business. When we talk about the transition job creation fund, about money from the employment insurance fund that is invested in projects, it could put a lot more into those projects than is now the case. The current problem stems from the government's decision to use the employment insurance surplus to pay off the deficit.

So the government aimed at the wrong target. It decided to fight the deficit. That is fine, but meanwhile, it could have taken more decisive steps in this year's budget to ensure that employment is again a priority, but there is no indication of this, and certainly not among Reform Party members who are being most unruly today.

So the priority that should have been set on employment is missing from this budget. People were waiting for some kind of action, for instance if we consider the government's procurement policies, this morning the government released the report of the parliamentary committee on government operations. After three and a half years in power, not one year but three and a half, we can say that this government is not effective, lacks openness in its procurement policies and does not use those policies to assist regional development across Canada.

I think that is inconceivable. The report as such is interesting, although it should have been tabled three years ago. The government should have taken steps two and a half years ago. This year, the budget should have contained measures to change the government's procurement policies, so that the negative impact of employment insurance reform on eastern Quebec and the maritimes could be compensated by meaningful expenditures, including government procurement, something that is sadly lacking.

There is no significant action on research and development. How will regional economies that need to diversify be able to meet the

challenges of the 21st century? They must be given a chance to transform their economy, to include research and development in the agri-food sector, for instance. There is room in secondary and tertiary processing for developing products that will be successful on foreign markets, which means they would not be stuck with primary processing where there are far fewer jobs today than was the case 20 years ago.

In agriculture, the future is in processing. We must keep producing primary products, but we must ensure that they are subsequently processed in this country so we can sell them in that form on American and European markets and throughout the world.

So, there is nothing dynamic in the present budget or in the practical applications.

The member for Matapédia-Matane pointed out to me that the approach to the forestry industry could have been very different so as to permit an improvement.

In connection with the new policy on U.S.-Canada relations, quotas were imposed on lumber exports. There is however a major new market to be developed and that is for wood which has been processed and which is not subject to quotas. If the processing industry is developed, it would mean increased exports to the United States, which are not limited by quotas. This paves the way for initiative, for original ideas. It provides a breath of fresh air to those who have come up with ideas in our regions to develop processing companies and development incentives. This will surely be one of the issues in the upcoming federal election, with people wanting to know what each party has to offer.

There was none of the originality we might have expected. Here in Parliament, the official opposition is often the source of originality, as we have seen in documents such as those tabled on tax reform and the RRSP employment proposal, which could have been included in the budget. But there is nothing like this.

The budget implementation policies are rather like the budget. We could describe the budget as neutral, rather lazy, failing to aim at the real target, unemployment. It should help us attain our objectives by creating jobs and breathing new life into our regional economies.

In the last part of this presentation, I would like to talk more specifically about a different problem, that of American pensions. Yesterday, the minister made an interesting announcement. It was the result of the efforts of members of pretty well every party, I think. In particular, I would mention those of the member for Bellechasse, with whom I set up a non-partisan committee to propose solutions to the minister, of the member for Windsor-St. Clair and of the Solicitor General, whose efforts I am aware of.

Once the new agreement between Canada and the United States is ratified, the situation will finally be corrected. In the meantime, however, one thing has not been corrected and could be in legislation to implement the budget, such as this. The federal government could have made an advance available to people who were penalized by the Americans' deduction of 25 per cent income tax from all American pensions. It often amounts to $1,000, $1,500 or $2,000, but it is money that enables people to buy food and pay the rent.

If the agreement is not ratified until January 1998, low-income people will have lived two full years with 25 per cent less than what they should have received. I think the government should go the extra step and provide advances so that people on limited incomes have at least 50 or 60 per cent of the money they should normally have. It could have done so through a bill like this one. Perhaps it is not too late. Perhaps the government could bring in an amendment to this effect, so as to put a lid on the inequity created by the change made to the tax treaty.

Once the U.S. Senate has ratified the agreement and the Canadian government has done so in keeping with the announcement made yesterday, the problem will be resolved, but in the meantime, there are people on very low incomes who will be forced to cut back on necessities for two years or two and half years, after which time they will receive a cheque covering the past two years. Why does the federal government not show some consideration and quickly give these people an advance?

These days, people are paying for mistakes made by governments when it should be the other way around. I would therefore ask the government to do that and to be more effective than it has been in reducing the deficit, to show more foresight than it has in curbing unemployment and, as far as American pensions are concerned, to show some consideration and take action to settle the problem once and for all.

In closing, it seems to me that the federal government still has a long way to go in terms of addressing the unemployment problem. The active measures one would have expected are nowhere to be seen, and that is probably the issue on which this government will be judged most harshly by the people in the next federal election.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise for a short while to address some of the issues. Earlier this day the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance laid out some of the principal provisions of Bill C-93.

He referred to the issues of science research and development, in particular the Canada Foundation for Innovation. He outlined a program where the government would put as much as $800 million over a five-year period into this important sector. The investment

followed a pattern the government has used in other programs where partnerships can be developed. It is expected-

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:30 p.m.

An hon. member

Has he already spoken?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

The member is wondering whether I have spoken. That was on Bill C-92. I know they enjoyed that one. The member was wondering whether I had anything else to say on RRSPs and was after some tax planning tips.

With regard to the elimination of the seven-year limit on the carry forward of unused RRSPs, the member knows that young people who are cash poor in the early years will be able to contribute. The statistics show that contributors to RRSPs make the majority of their contributions after age 45. Certainly that opportunity is an important aspect which I left out in my speech on Bill C-92.

As the member knows, neither one of us care for Garth Turner's rationalizations of why would should buy RRSPs from him.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

No, no.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

I hear the member. If he had heard the speech he would well know the reason he is pushing RRSPs is to earn enormous commissions without providing his clients the kind of information they really need to know. It is not only how to get money into an RRSP. It is how to tax plan to get it out at the lowest effective tax cost to the taxpayer and to the family. That is an important issue.

The rat fink phone line to turn in taxpayers is quite a draconian and extreme measure.

Bill C-93 is related to some extent to Bill C-92. It deals ostensibly with the provisions of the budget of February 18. The parliamentary secretary raised some extremely important issues with regard to EI and the relief to be given to businesses with premiums of less than $60,000. There was to be a grace period for EI premiums for new employees, an important aspect with regard to the overall strategy of the government in promoting economic growth and jobs for Canadians. The subsequent reduction of EI premiums for businesses is estimated to create an additional 20,000 jobs.

These kinds of elements in the budget brought down by the hon. Minister of Finance continue to show the commitment of the government to the growth of jobs for Canadians. As he has said and as the Prime Minister said on many occasions, as long as there is one Canadian out there who wants to work and who has not had an opportunity for a job they will continue to look for opportunities to promote an environment which will provide those essential jobs.

I cannot help but comment on the plight of young people. They are in a situation where they are competing for their first jobs with people who have already been in the labour force for many years because of the number of jobs that were lost, particularly the entry level jobs. It is an extremely serious situation for young people because it is not their fault. They have the education to a great extent and are looking for a chance.

In terms of its work with the provinces, internship and apprenticeship programs and other partnerships will tend to create the foundation that is essential to providing important jobs.

I have a message for young people, particularly those in high school. I have done a little of research since becoming a member of Parliament. I have spoken to the Peel Board of Education about the percentage of dropouts in high school. I was astounded to find out there were no hard and fast statistics because of re-entry into high school by people who formerly dropped out.

There are some rationalizations that somehow someone who has dropped out and comes back in and completes high school is just as successful as those who start and complete their high school education.

We can imagine the condition of young people's lives vis-à-vis their families when they have taken the decision to drop out before finishing high school. I imagine the parents feel sadness that their children did not have the motivation, support or whatever it was at a time when they really needed it and when it was so important for them to continue school.

People who have not finished high school have a tremendous problem finding that entry level position. We cannot expect small businesses that are struggling to compete to hire high school dropouts. Those jobs are gone in the new high tech global economy. Canada's role is to provide knowledge based jobs. Our young people have to understand that for them to earn a spot in the labour force it is essential that they as a minimum complete their high school education.

As an aside I pass on to young people that if there is anything they could possibly do, they must continue their education through high school. Hopefully they will find the motivation and a linkage to a community college or some other opportunity to develop their skills and talents. Every Canadian has something to contribute to a knowledge based economy if they would only invest a little of their time in its development.

In this last portion I would simply like to make a couple of comments about the child tax benefit. Members will know that some years ago there was an item called family allowance. Family allowance was a universal benefit given to all Canadians regardless of income. That changed over time. We now have a child tax benefit. It is effectively income tested. It provides assistance effectively to those with children who are in need.

The budget provides for an enrichment of the child tax benefit. As the parliamentary secretary laid out, the benefit for a couple with one child would be $1,625; for two children, $3,050; and for every additional child over two, $1,425.

The House has talked about an issue called a caregiver tax credit. It is a concept where we are looking for opportunities to provide financial or tax assistance to families who choose to provide care in the home not only to preschool children but also the chronically ill, the aged or the disabled.

The enrichment of the child tax benefit goes a long way to improving the support we have given to families with children. I continue to advocate on behalf of my constituents that the finance minister and all colleagues of the House look for ways to continue to enrich the support we should be giving to families who need help.

We will have an opportunity to talk about this issue much more. I simply wanted to reiterate the importance of the enrichment of the child tax benefit to assist families. I appreciate the opportunity to have participated in the debate on Bill C-93 and urge all members to support it.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:40 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I believe that you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That we adjourn debate on Bill C-93 in order to begin debate on Bill C-82 until the end of Government Orders this day at which point all questions to dispose of the report stage of the bill be deemed put, a recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Tuesday, April 15, 1997, at 12.30 p.m., and immediately after the said divisions, the House shall proceed to the third reading stage of the said bill and all questions necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the said bill shall be put no later than 4 p.m. on that day provided that any division requested thereon may not be deferred.

That on Friday, April 11, 1997, the business to be considered under government orders will be Bill C-5 and Bill C-17 and that no later than the time provided for government orders on that day all questions necessary to dispose of the remaining stages of both bills shall be put forthwith and recorded divisions be deemed requested and deferred until Tuesday, April 15, 1997 at 12.30 p.m.

That at completion of debate on Bill C-93 on Monday, April 14, 1997, a recorded division be deemed requested and deferred until Tuesday, April 15, 1997 at 12.30 p.m.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Shall we adjourn the debate on Bill C-93?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think we are going to agree to the motion. However, it was a very long motion. I would ask the parliamentary secretary: Is that the motion that was typed up and sent over or has it been amended? There has been quite a bit of negotiation this afternoon and I want to make sure we are agreeing to exactly what we agreed to previously.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank all parties for their co-operation.

The only change to what we discussed earlier was the third reading debate. This allows for third reading to occur right after the vote at 12.30 p.m. on Tuesday. That is the only clarification.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I take it that the hon. member is satisfied with that?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?