House of Commons Hansard #154 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was privacy.

Topics

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-17, an act to amend the Criminal Code and certain other acts, be read the third time and passed.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Calgary Northeast has 37 minutes remaining in his intervention.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I was relating some of the shortcomings of that bill. I dealt with section 348(1) of the Criminal Code, breaking and entering a place other than a dwelling house for which the maximum sentence is being reduced from an indictable offence only to a dual procedure one, having a maximum sentence of 10 years.

I was relating a situation that occurred in Calgary. It was a shop break-in. Several offenders had entered the shop in the early morning hours of a weekday. While they were conducting their activities within that shop, the owner, a recently arrived immigrant to Canada, had come into the shop to do his work. Unbeknownst to him three culprits who had entered through the roof were in the store. When he walked in he was immediately confronted by the three shop breakers, one of whom was armed.

There was a physical confrontation and the shopkeeper was shot in the neck. He was a breath away from dying. The culprits scattered. Some climbed back on to the roof, the point of entry. One ran through the parking lot. Fortunately a call was placed to police and a nearby cruiser responded. The police response was so immediate that two culprits were trapped on the roof. The third culprit ran through the parking lot firing his gun as the police approached him. It was a semi-automatic weapon.

There was the offence against the owner of the shop and charges were also laid as a result of the culprit firing at police officers. Fortunately no one else was hit. There was a good resolution to this incident. For one reason or another the police never returned fire although they had every opportunity to do so. Maybe they looked at the conditions around the site at the time and did not return fire for that reason.

That is a very serious offence, a shop breaking. It can be looked at as a property offence which is the way it has been classified. It is unfortunate that the government seems to be looking at those offences as being rather minor in nature. As a result of that view we see a change in the legislation that trivializes the offence by it being reduced with its maximum sentence diluted.

There was a shop breaking. Armed offenders entered the premises. A confrontation ensued because a man who had contributed to society got up a little earlier than normal and went to work to look after his books and a few other items. He confronted these subjects and almost lost his life.

As far as I am concerned shop breaking is a serious offence. So is house breaking. However, the maximum penalties will now be reduced to a dual procedure. They can be proceeded with as summary conviction offences which may yield just a few months in prison.

To my way of thinking and in the eyes of a lot of Canadians, culprits like that should get the maximum penalty just for that offence. Now it has been reduced. It should be an indictable offence. Even if the crown proceeds in that fashion the maximum time delivered will be 10 years which is not acceptable.

Another thing will happen in this case. The charges will all go forward: discharging a firearm in a public place; attempted murder; and all forms of criminal charges adequate to this offence. They will be presented in court. As in most cases of this nature where multiple charges are laid, the courts will look on the charges in the following fashion. The most serious charge is attempted murder, the second most serious is shooting at the police officers and the third is the shop breaking itself.

Those three charges will go forward and most likely the most serious penalty will be allotted to the attempted murderer, as it should be, but all the rest, even though they may yield four, five or however many years the court deems necessary, will serve their sentences concurrently. In other words, they will all be served at the same time, as opposed to consecutively. Seldom do we see the courts ordering consecutive sentencing. I find that a little unsettling because it is so common in our courtrooms today.

Charges such as shop breaking, a breaking and entering offence other than in a dwelling house, have been reduced in scope. Frequently charges for shop breaking are reduced. I have a concern about the provision in section 348(1) which would reduce maximum sentencing.

The member for Crowfoot has been diligently following this bill. He is very much aware of its ramifications. He clearly pointed out the fact that our party would have voted against this bill. However, other provisions have been thrown into the legislation which make it almost necessary for us to support it.

Section 349 deals with being unlawfully in a dwelling house. Again it is a dual procedure which has a maximum sentence of ten years. It is an indictable charge. We are talking about a dwelling house in which people live. It is their castle. It is their refuge. The charge concerns an uninvited person being in the house. It is a situation which occurs frequently. The person may not even give a

reason for being in the house but will only face a maximum sentence of ten years.

I was a police officer. The hon. member for Crowfoot was in a similar type of career. He struggled through 14 years and saw some very significant happenings when it came to the things that some people will do to others. I know that people are very unsettled when someone walks uninvited into their home and disturbs the possessions they cherish. I am concerned about the reduction in the sentencing for being unlawfully in a dwelling house. There is no reason an uninvited guest should not get the maximum penalty.

I see that the parliamentary secretary to the justice minister is in his seat. I do not know if he understands what I am saying, but when it comes to breaking into a house, the victims do not forget that there was an intruder in their house. They never forget it. It is very unsettling for them, especially if the intruder touched their possessions.

It has happened to me. Some of my police paraphernalia was stolen from my home by an intruder. I know how it feels. I want to point out that for female members of a family it is very disturbing and they never forget. They have to wash all the clothes because somebody uninvited intruded in their privacy.

When it comes to a dwelling house I see the need to keep offences much higher than most. It is so important that people get the message that the government intends to protect what they own, their refuge, the only refuge that really no one else is permitted to enter apart from members of the family or those who have permission to do so. That is my concern about this part of the bill.

There are other provisions in the bill. One is dealing with forgery. Again it is being reduced from 14 years to a maximum of 10 years.

Prior to my election to the House I was a commercial crime investigator. I have been involved in some major cases of embezzlement, fraud and misappropriation of funds. I have seen numerous people lose their livelihood over the greed of others who had been hired or who were in partnership with them in businesses. It troubles me to see again someone who has committed such a crime and who can lay a complete business to waste because they were in a trusted position and then get away with a lower sentence.

I refer to a statement that was made in one of the government reports. It was the intent of the government to modernize the Criminal Code in these areas. What on earth does modernizing the Criminal Code have to do with reducing the sentences on very important sections of the Criminal Code? What on earth does that have to do with modernizing it?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Reformers do not understand modernization.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

The parliamentary secretary cannot grasp what is being said here. The courts have taken this trend, and a lot of it is because of appointments from the government to many of the judges within the court of Queen's bench appeal court and the supreme court and the pressure coming to bear to change some of the sentences delivered.

That is not what the people in this country want. They are crying out, calling out, for stiffer sentences. Take the troublemaker off the street, not turn him out earlier, not reduce his sentence and especially with violence and those areas where there is a potential for violence. With break and enter there is always the potential for violence.

I know many people do not talk about the fraud side of things but there are hundreds of millions of dollars lost every year in credit card fraud. That would certainly address the point of organized crime.

Organized criminals have engaged in this activity big time. They are the most abusive and intrusive form of criminal into the whole area of credit card fraud and deceit through other means. It stretches into unemployment insurance fraud and welfare fraud in the organized criminal mind.

When the drafters of the Criminal Code brought these sections into being they were very much aware of what had to be done. The legal minds of the day were concerned about organized crime. What would it take to shut down an organized criminal? I know the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice may not be aware that some of these fraud criminal rings operate on an international scale. It is international crime with hundreds of millions of dollars in credit card fraud alone. They obtain cards and they can actually change the data on the strip on the back of the card. This is a very sophisticated, organized type of criminal. It certainly has an impact on the community and society. Who pays for it all? We do. We pay for the service charges at the bank. We pay for the purchase of those goods that are never recovered. We pay the price at the stores because everyone builds into their price list the losses incurred because of this organized criminal element. These sophisticated crimes should addressed by a maximum penalty that is higher instead of lower.

We talked about the greatest shortfall of the bill, the reduction of maximum sentences in the Criminal Code. The real reasons Reform will have to support the bill are two provisions that the justice minister put in at the last minute.

There is the conditional release where violent offenders are actually given conditional sentences, some of them for rape. Some did not even go to jail. The other one is the victim impact statements on section 745. They were not mandatory. In Bill C-41

the government granted victims the right to give their statement and then in Bill C-45 took the right away.

Seeing the error of its ways, the government brought in the two quick amendments to Bill C-17 which have nothing to do with the original bill, but the subsections are essential and Reform has chosen to support the government on the bill.

On section 745 under the Criminal Code, the faint hope clause, there has been so much talk about the faint hope clause over the years and especially since many of these first degree murderers are now eligible for application for a hearing. There has been a lot of controversy surrounding this.

The government introduced legislation that tinkered with it. It now requires the unanimous consent of a jury to reduce the killer's request for a reduced sentence.

I want to talk more about victim impact statements. However, I think we should look at some other facts before we get into that aspect. Let us look at the judicial review decisions as of mid-1995. In total there were 46 judicial reviews. I looked at the record of those making application for early release. I am talking about first degree murderers. Of the 46 killers who had their sentences reduced 11 killed women. Some were their wives. Some were acquaintances. Some were female children.

The government talks about what it wants to do when it comes to supporting women and giving them opportunity. There is nothing wrong with that, but I have to question the government when it comes to looking at the cold hard facts.

Why would a government want to allow killers who deliberately took the lives of someone else to be released back into society? They prey on moms, wives and children. As of mid-1995, 11 of the 46 applied. Another 8 killed police officers. A police officer has a significant role in society, as do mothers. As the statement goes, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. Let us think of the power of that statement about mothers. It is a powerful statement. One day children have significant influence on society.

Of the 46 applicants, 11 females were murdered by these killers, 8 police officers were murdered by these killers and 3 children. The applicants had reduced sentences.

I would like to have those statistics brought up to date. What is the record from mid-1995 to today? I could add one or two more to the list who killed police officers and had their sentences reduced. How many more women and how many more children were killed? The government is intent on letting them out. It could have stopped that once and for all by repealing section 745. Ultimately we should be talking about repealing section 745.

The statistics send a shiver up my spine, to think this is what society is doing. There is no punishment. Speaking of punishment, it used to play a very prominent role in the judicial system. It was essential. There was a different understanding of what had to happen. That different understanding dealt with the view of the Liberal thinker of what a man is capable of doing and of what would stop him from doing it.

The role of government is to protect those who have done good in society and to punish those who have done wrong. That is what order is all about. It is about punishing those who do wrong to correct their behaviour. Only punishment can do that.

The model of rehabilitation is struggling. It has fallen into the mud. It has failed society. Yet the Liberal mentality of the day continues with rehabilitation as the way to correct problems when it comes to offenders.

In 1976 the Liberals abolished capital punishment against the wishes of the vast majority of Canadians. I was never consulted or asked for my opinion. Nor was anyone in my community whom I know of. It was a unilateral action taken on the part of the Liberal government to get rid of that section of the Criminal Code.

In 1962 the last person was hanged in the country. It was the form of capital punishment of the day. In 1976 it was completely abolished. Also 1962 was the last time corporal punishment was administered. Since 1962 violent crime has increase over 400 per cent.

Let us look at the big picture because it tells the story. Since 1962 there has been over a 400 per cent increase in violent crime. I do not buy the story-nor do most police officers and others who analyse the crime situation-that crime is going down. It is going down only in the short term.

Since 1962 there has been over a 500 per cent increase in property crime. I think 1962 is a very significant date. Not 1976 or 1984. The last time corporal punishment and capital punishment were administered was in 1962. It was ripped away from the people. They were never consulted. Since that time we have been paying the price. The list of victims increases as time goes on.

It is now to the point where our jails are full. Prisoners are being turned out quicker than we can put them in. They are being turned out without them being rehabilitated. This is a very common occurrence. Rehabilitation does not work. This is a deep concern.

We heard lately questions being put to the minister about ongoing victimization. My colleague from Fraser Valley East has

been very pointed with the Minister of Justice. I am ashamed to say the Minister of Justice in his replies will never address the concern about what is happening. We want to stop victimization.

Only a small element of criminals involve themselves in this kind of activity. It is only 6 per cent to 8 per cent, so let us target the 8 per cent.

I was interested in the statistics and the reaction to the three strikes and you are out legislation in California. I have communicated a great deal with the gentleman who initiated that bill. Two valid strikes and any one criminal offence after that puts the criminal away for life. That bill was passed. The citizens of California wanted it. They were tired of their sons, daughters, moms and dads being shot, mutilated and killed in every fashion. They got behind Mr. Reynold as he introduced that citizen's initiative. It was passed through their legislature and became law.

That was three years ago. Since then violent crime has gone down. They targeted 6 per cent or 8 per cent of the most violent criminals in their society, took them off the street and put them away for life. It did not fill their jails up to overflowing. They had to build one or two more but it is beginning to show results. It is beginning to protect people.

We talk about section 745 and wanting to turn killers out. Where the justice is in that? It is not there. We argue about how the victim impact statement will be presented in the courtroom. It is sad to see victims watching their statements being torn apart by a judge and judge telling them that they are editorializing, that those sections of their statements have to be removed and that they cannot be emotional. They want to take emotion out of the whole process.

I would be emotional if my wife, my son or my daughter were killed. I do not blame them for being emotional. I want them to be emotional because it is an emotional situation to have a loved one ripped away.

We are arguing about the statements when the government should be completely removing the section and allowing for the total closure on behalf of victims. They should not have to contend with another hearing and another hearing and another hearing. It would be over. It would be done with.

Bill C-17 certainly will go forward. We will support it. We will give its provisions the benefit of the doubt and allow the provision overlooked by the justice minister to go through. The bill is so flawed and so abusive to those who do not deserve to be abused that I have a difficult time supporting it. We should be repealing the section completely. We should be removing it from the books.

I have sat in several hearings to listen to statements given by victims. Some cannot even go to court. Some have a difficult time going to court so they have the prosecutor or someone else read it. The difficulty for me was to see those victims struggle with that and to watch judges tear their statements apart and sanitize the whole courtroom with filtered evidence. Reports were submitted by so-called experts who could never be questioned or cross-examined.

I have a parole report in my briefcase which I will not o get into right now. It is devastating to see condensed versions of reality or the truth. They are paraphrased and placed into a court record with hardly any opportunity for questioning or cross-examining. So-called experts come up conclusions to justify the existence of their testimony to ensure a reduced sentence from the jury. The jury sits in a sanitized courtroom. I do not think that is justice at all. The truth is not being heard.

Again I put on the record that Reform will support the bill reluctantly, but our fight to have this section repealed and truth in sentencing initiated, that is a sentence delivered is a sentence served and life means life, will not rest until such is accomplished.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Prince Albert—Churchill River Saskatchewan

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak on the motion to read Bill C-17 a third time. During the course of debate on this bill there has been a considerable number of subjects discussed which did not necessarily relate to the subject matter of the bill. I will restrict my comments for the most part to the issues discussed in the bill.

Some may remember that Bill C-17 was originally introduced as Bill C-118 on December 14, 1995. At that time it was noted that it continued the work of Bill C-42, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1994 which had been adopted the year before. Bill C-42 was very well received. Provincial and territorial governments through their justice ministers have asked us to get on with producing a follow-up bill to continue the reforms and improvements to our criminal procedure law which were begun in Bill C-42. I believe Bill C-17 does just this. It appears the provinces are appreciative of this and are eager to see it passed.

When the bill was in committee a letter from the attorney general of New Brunswick was tabled. The purpose of the letter was to urge the committee members to seize the opportunity to make a number of significant improvements to our criminal justice system. It is worth referring to this letter more extensively in order to show how important our work in Parliament can be to the provinces that are responsible for the administration of the criminal law.

The hon. Paul Duffie, attorney general of New Brunswick, wrote to the chair of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on September 17 and indicated that he wished to stress the importance of the proposed amendments contained in Bill C-17

and New Brunswick's particular interest in a number of its provisions.

He went on to indicate the following: "The bill's provisions can be broken down into a number of broad categories. The first category is those which enhance public confidence in the criminal justice system and here I refer to the statutory basis allowing police officers to take by warrant handprints, fingerprints and teeth impressions from suspects; expanding the release provisions that can be imposed by police officers to include such basic requirements as abstaining from alcohol or drugs, reporting as required and prohibiting the possession of firearms; retaining at the option of the crown trial jurisdiction in provincial court so that a limited category of offences could be dealt with expeditiously".

The letter identified a second category of provisions, those intended to make the Criminal Code more effective and efficient. Mr. Duffie then identified provisions aimed at broadening the scope of prehearing conferences, which will give judges more leeway to deal with preliminary issues, thereby narrowing the number of issues at trial and reducing trial time; replacing jurors who are unable to perform their duties, eliminating delays which can occur by restarting the trial; providing a precondition for the court appointment of counsel so there is a means test imposed, ensuring that the public purse is used to only assist those who cannot legitimately afford counsel.

With regard to the third category mentioned in the provisions intended to fill perceived gaps in the Criminal Code, he referred to the need for an offence for those accused who failed to comply with release conditions imposed by a police officer and those who make unauthorized use of credit card data, those who forge or falsify credit cards, those who possess a device for unlawfully obtaining computer devices and those who participate along with the driver in the theft of a vehicle for joy riding.

As a fourth category, the attorney general of New Brunswick identified those provisions intended to achieve compliance with court decisions. He referred to the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada in which the court interpreted the drinking and driving law so that the statutory presumption on blood alcohol has become less effective in contested cases, as the crown is currently obliged to call expert evidence to extrapolate the reading back to the time of driving and has determined that an arrested accused who is detained by police pending a court appearance must be brought before a judge within 24 hours of arrest.

Provisions in this bill will address these problems. He noted, in particular, that the technologically amendments in Bill C-17 would allow the provinces to use modern communication methods to conduct remote appearances, using one or two judges to cover the province, thereby greatly reducing the number of weekend courts which, with their limited human resources, are taking their toll on all of the participants. It is also quite costly to set up weekend courts in each region of the provinces.

The fifth category identified by the attorney general of New Brunswick contained provisions aimed at advances in technology to modernize procedures. He then referred to those provisions that would eliminate the need for a personal appearance in a court by police officers and accused persons for various administrative matters at various stages of the court process, including at the bail hearing, at the preliminary hearing and at the trial. Those provisions would enable investigators to make effective use of the new DNA warrant and general warrant procedures in major crime investigations by applying for and obtaining warrants using modern communication methods.

The sixth and final category includes provisions which try to improve evidentiary procedures. He mentioned the provision that would eliminate the necessity of calling witnesses to establish uncontested elements of certain events by providing affidavit evidence and the provisions that would allow the presentation of expert evidence through written reports, unless otherwise directed by the court.

The attorney general concluded by noting that there are many more provisions contained in this bill, all of which are intended to improve the workings of the criminal law of Canada. He stated that there is a window of opportunity for legislators, after due consideration and informed debate, to enact these measures which, in his view, will enhance criminal law enforcement, facilitate court proceedings, modernize the provisions of the Criminal Code and enhance public confidence in our justice system.

It is clear that this bill is important for the territories and the provinces. Indeed it is a good example of co-operative federalism in an important area where the federal government has the responsibility to enact criminal law and the provinces have the responsibility to administer it. I urge that the bill be passed as quickly as possible.

There were a couple of amendments which were put forward by the government for the purposes of clarifying existing legislation.

First, Bill C-17 was amended to change paragraph 742.1(b) of the Criminal Code by making it explicit that in addition to the judge being of the view that serving the sentence in the community would not endanger the community, which was in the provisions for conditional sentencing, the sentence also had to be consistent with the fundamental purpose and principles of sentencing set out in sections 718 to 718.2. Such principles include the principle of denunciation, deterrence and the protection of the community. While implicit before, it was felt that it was important to make the application of those principles very explicit.

Over the past several months it has been the practice of the Reform Party to refer to specific cases which may be decided before the courts which in the view of the Reform Party are

incorrect, as is the case when every new piece of legislation is introduced.

Court decisions, provincial or Queen's bench or supreme court, differ from one another. The vast majority of the cases are decided correctly but there are exceptional cases where the public may be of the view that the case was incorrectly decided or the crown was of that view. Then the crown seeks an appeal of those decisions, and the defence can also appeal, when it is of the opinion that the decision is incorrect.

The appeal then goes to the court of appeal then to the supreme court and guidelines for the use of such sections are set out and are considered and delineated carefully. As the judicial process carries on, there is a clarification and improvement in the setting out of conditions under which conditional sentencing will operate. Each time there is a court decision which indicates that certain considerations are appropriate or if there is disagreement it is subject to appeal and improvement by the court superior to the one in which the decision was made.

It is probably not appropriate to simply take exceptional cases and make them the rule. Out of the 1000 cases that are decided, 999 are decided in an appropriate manner and are never mentioned. But the one that may not happen to be decided in that fashion is the one the Reform Party raises in an attempt to cast the whole justice system into disrepute.

With respect to this amendment, certainly conditional sentencing as it only applies to those criminal activities for which a sentence is two years or less, people are incarcerated by provincial governments. Because this is an administration of a justice issue, all the provinces were consulted, regardless of political stripe. While there may well have been some differences as to details, a broad consensus certainly existed that a change of this nature needed to be made. Certainly those familiar with the legal system see the jails of the land filled with people who are dangerous but also those who posed no danger to the community, who did not commit violent crimes. It was the desire of the provinces and the federal government to ensure that when people commit violent crimes there ought to be room in correctional facilities for them and that the space ought not to be taken up by people who would not pose a risk to society.

It is a mechanism of the conditional sentence that rather than allowing violent offenders to enter the jail and then days later because of lack of space being removed, it allows for non-dangerous offenders, people who have not committed violent crimes, to serve their sentence in the communities and more space will be freed up for those violent offenders, those who commit abhorrent crimes within the community. Therefore the community will be even more properly protected.

I would suggest that the conditional sentence is one mechanism that allows greater safety in communities by ensuring that for

people who commit violent crimes there will be room in our correctional facilities, thus ensuring they are there for an appropriate length of time.

The second amendment is with respect to victim impact statements and section 745 hearings. When Bill C-41 was introduced it was silent on when the victim impact statement provisions would become effective. This amendment merely seeks to clarify that and make certain that victim impact statements, if the victim wishes to make one, must be accepted by the court after the passage of this bill. That very briefly sums up the provisions of Bill C-17 and the amendments.

I want to make one more comment. I noted with interest when the hon. member from Calgary, the critic for the solicitor general, indicated that since California put in a three strike law the crime rate has gone done. He used that as an argument to suggest that if the crime rate is going down what is being done in California must be working and we should do it here.

I would like to inform the hon. member that over the last four years the crime rate in Canada has gone down, due largely in part to a broad range of initiatives. First, the initiatives taken by the government to toughen and strengthen the Young Offenders Act, the criminal law and other related criminal statutes. More amendments and more changes to improve and toughen the criminal law have been made by this government than had been made in the history of this nation. That is certainly part of the reason.

Another part is that the government has worked hard to increase jobs and economic opportunities for people. That is a very important factor in reducing the crime rate. As well, the government has introduced many important initiatives on the social front to ensure social justice. That too is of importance in reducing the crime rate; removing the underlying causes for crime.

I would like to wrap up and thank the hon. members for hearing me these few minutes on this bill. I hope this bill will receive prompt attention, will be quickly passed and that it will receive expedient and quick consideration by the other place so it can be brought into force as soon as possible for the benefit of all Canadians.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the hon. parliamentary secretary to the justice minister.

First, has the justice department or the member ever researched the three strikes legislation in California? I point out to the member

that I have been doing that on a regular basis for approximately one year. I have received interesting statistics on what is happening.

I am going to dispel one statement that is often used on the government side in reference to the three strikes legislation. It targets 6, 7 or 8 per cent of the criminal element. The most violent, habitual, intrusive, abusive type of people are by far mostly the male population. What it spells out is this. An individual commits an offence, he is charged and he is sent away. He serves the major part of his sentence. The second time he offends, it is spelled out to him very clearly that if he messes up with another violent offence, he will serve an even greater portion of his sentence, a longer one.

If that individual commits any crime again whatsoever, even stealing a pizza, as is often said, because he has had two violent offences against him, he will be put away for life.

In effect, for the offender who commits these violent acts, who has a greater propensity to commit a violent act such as taking someone's life, there is the death penalty in the state of California.

The research put forward by the Department of Justice and those who initiated this bill was quite substantive. It brought about this piece of legislation. It is targeting. It is effective. Did he examine any data or research to see how and why the department arrived at what it did? Maybe it is in the state of California, but also here sentences have been reduced.

This omnibus bill, Bill C-17, is alleged to modernize the law and streamline court proceedings. It quickly points out that the maximum sentences for very serious criminal activity, including unlawful confinement which is a crime against a person, that the maximum sentence be reduced.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice to justify why those sentences were reduced and to produce the facts that justify this legislation in its total form. Lay it on the table here. Can the parliamentary secretary address that point?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite has raised a number of points in his questions. He indicated that he investigated the three strikes rule in California. After someone has committed two violent offences-I do not know what the definition of violent is, perhaps two common assaults-and then afterward stole a pizza, he should be put in jail for life.

I am unclear what the hon. member means by violent offence. Certainly he is not suggesting that, in the case I mentioned in which someone brushes against someone else, committing common assault twice and then stealing a pizza, he should go to jail. That would be absurd.

The hon. member said that he researched a number of interesting techniques of crime prevention. There is the three strikes rule, caning in Singapore as well as a number of other issues. The member makes the statement that because the crime rate is going down in California with its three strikes rule, somehow it alone is responsible for the reduction in crime rate.

We have taken a very multi-pronged approach, as I indicated in my speech, to prevent crime. There is no simple solution to the problem of crime but if the hon. member's logic applies, then we are doing the right thing. The crime rate is going down here also.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the member. I do not think the parliamentary secretary is getting the point of my question.

I asked him to lay on the table in this House the justification for reducing maximum sentences as opposed to increasing them.

The Liberal government has a tendency to constantly want to trivialize some of the more serious Criminal Code charges and there are more than three examples. Dual procedure offences can be handled as indictable or as summary convictions. However, the parliamentary secretary does not want to answer that question.

Where are the facts for bringing about any changes in the law and placing it before Parliament and passing it? I do not see any of that information flowing from the government side, apart from the fact that somebody in the legal community wants it this way or there is a charter argument that states we cannot do it that way any more. That is strictly an opinion that is offered too often by the justice department.

I want to see the facts for justifying a reduction in those maximum sentences.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the changes introduced in the bill that deal with dual procedure offences, if the court decisions over the past number of years are looked at, we get an indication of what the judges are doing with respect to various types of offences.

All that we are trying to do, and something the provinces want to see because it aids the efficiency of the legal system, is to allow that where the cases are not so serious to give the provinces discretion to proceed at a more efficient level in court. Where the case is more serious, the result would be a more serious criminal sanction. Therefore, what it is doing is simply allowing more flexibility for the provinces. In more serious cases the accused will still be prosecuted in a serious, tough fashion with serious consequences if a conviction is rendered.

At the same time, in very minor cases, it would allow them to be handled in accordance with the type of issue that is a stake. That is simply reality.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. parliamentary secretary keeps talking he is going to convince me to vote against this bill. I will not because I see the need for some aspects of the bill.

However, the penalties imposed by the courts are no justification for reducing the penalties as prescribed by law. If that is the case then what do we do with this new conditional sentencing law that allows violent offenders to walk free? It is the courts that render those sentences, only because the law has been passed to allow them to do that.

Surely we cannot justify the reduction of penalties simply because some judges deem that a rapist should walk free and that we should reduce the penalty-

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. parliamentary secretary has about 30 seconds.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gordon Kirkby Liberal Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK

Mr. Speaker, with respect, I dealt with that in the body of my speech. I indicated that we are simply allowing that where there is a serious offence it will continue to be dealt with seriously. Where it is not so serious it will be dealt with in a more summary fashion.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that Bill C-17 was tabled or rather brought back to the House this week. As you know, the official opposition had to approach the federal Minister of Justice on several occasions until he finally agreed to introduce Bill C-17 in the House, a bill which was and still is anxiously awaited by practically all the provinces, since they are responsible for the administration of justice.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Lucky we were there.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC

As my colleague just said, lucky the Bloc Quebecois was here to keep reminding the Minister of Justice of Quebec's biding interest in Bill C-17.

You will recall that on Monday, April 7, the Bloc Quebecois practically had to threaten the government opposite with amendments that would add provisions concerning anti-biker legislation before the government suddenly decided to bring back Bill C-17.

I think this was another important gain for the Bloc, the way the minister decided to act on Bill C-17 by bringing it back to the House.

Again, we have always been very consistent in our position on Bill C-17, in other words, we have always said yes, it is a good bill. What the Minister of Justice proposes in Bill C-17 is an improvement. The Bloc Quebecois is prepared to support the government 100 per cent on this bill, but considering recent events in Quebec, he should take advantage of this opportunity to amend this bill by including, as requested by Quebec, a provision that would open the way to legislation or provisions dealing with bikers and organized crime.

The government has often told us to go to Quebec City, go to headquarters and see our former leader. Get him to agree, and then come back, and more of the same. As far as criminal law is concerned and Quebec's right to have its own anti-biker legislation and even regarding the most far-reaching provisions in Bill C-17, the Bloc and the Parti québécois are definitely on the same wave length. The minister was forced to admit that sovereignists are unanimous about the need for this kind of legislation. He had to do something to make up for the mistakes he has made in this area.

So he brought back Bill C-17. The government even proposed amendments at a stage when it does not usually do so. We gave our unanimous consent. Our co-operation with the government was exemplary. We have tried to make this bill as good as it could possibly be, with some very useful amendments so the police will be able to do their job. And I think Bill C-17 will provide the police with additional tools so they can deal with at least part of the problem of crime in this country.

The Bloc Quebecois has repeatedly asked the minister how he intended to deal with crime. He kept saying: "Now listen, Bill C-17 is going to deal with all this. We will pass Bill C-17 in the House, which will introduce various changes, and the problem will be solved". So why has Bill C-17 yet to pass third reading, although it was tabled on March 8, 1996, when it passed first reading, and today is April 11, 1997, more than a year later?

However, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice recalled that some bills were tabled in 1994 and 1995. So they go back even further than March 1996. I wonder. Bill C-17 is supposed to be the answer to all our problems with crime. Because of C-17, we do not have to pursue legislation we have been demanding for months and even years-anti-biker legislation-to deal with the majority of criminal offenses. So why did the minister, who has been responsible for these matters since 1994, not table it so it could be passed?

Allow me to make a short digression. The biker war is currently an issue, but you will remember that, as early as 1982, the municipality of Tracy, in Quebec, asked for a special law to deal with the problem. The mayor of Sorel-Tracy asked for such a measure, because a bunker was being built by the Hell's Angels.

So, this problem has been with us for a long time. Now, the parliamentary secretary is reminding us that the bill, which the minister has had in his hands since 1994, has yet to be adopted.

If the minister had had any political will at all, and a good dose of humility to admit his mistake regarding the anti-biker legisla-

tion that is being asked of him, he could have introduced the necessary amendments and enlisted the same degree of co-operation that he received for his own amendments, on Monday. The minister could have enlisted the participation and co-operation of the Bloc Quebecois and, I am convinced, of the third party, since the result would have been a more comprehensive bill.

But the Bloc Quebecois will show magnanimity. We will once again give the minister a chance, because he promised us that legislation would be introduced next week. We are anxiously waiting for this legislation, but with an open mind. I hope the minister will follow up on our representations, on those of a large number of Quebec municipalities, and on those of Quebec's Minister of Justice, Mr. Bégin, and Minister of Public Security, Mr. Perreault.

In events surrounding the biker war and Bill C-17, I was somewhat surprised to see in the newspapers that the federal justice minister was accusing his provincial counterpart, Mr. Bégin, of being responsible for the fact that Bill C-17 had still not been passed. The federal minister said: "Bill C-17 could have been passed, but Mr. Bégin, the Quebec justice minister, is partly to blame for the fact that it was not".

I think it important that I mention to the House a letter, just to show that sometimes the Liberal government opposite puts out misinformation. On July 9, 1996, Quebec's deputy justice minister and deputy attorney general, Michel Bouchard, wrote to George Thomson, deputy minister and deputy attorney general of the federal justice department, to express his strong interest in seeing Bill C-17 passed as quickly as possible.

I know that earlier the parliamentary secretary cited a letter from New Brunswick's justice minister, Paul Duffy. In fact, New Brunswick has followed this issue with a great deal of interest, for essentially the same reasons as Quebec, but I find it strange, unless I missed something because I had to step out to make a phone call, that I did not hear the parliamentary secretary mention Michel Bouchard, although Mr. Bouchard wrote a very interesting letter to the deputy minister of the federal justice department on July 9, 1996.

I will read the first paragraph, because I know it sums up Quebec's position. It says: "Bill C-17, introduced in the House of Commons on March 8, 1996, contains many criminal amendments that we have been calling for for several years now and that have been approved by the conference to harmonize legislation".

A little further on, it reads: "The introduction of these new measures alone will, in the short term, save us millions of dollars, a not insignificant amount in the context of the budgetary constraint facing us all. It will therefore come as no surprise that we were extremely disappointed to learn that passage of this omnibus bill, which was already postponed until last spring, has again been postponed".

He went on: "You will therefore understand our great desire to see Bill C-17 among the bills the federal justice minister is determined to move on as quickly as possible".

This letter is dated July 9, 1996. Nobody should be blaming the provincial justice minister, Mr. Bégin, for the delay in passing this bill. I think that all provincial attorneys general were in agreement that Bill C-17 should be passed as speedily as possible, given certain factors that I will mention in a few minutes. Why are these attorneys general in Canada and in Quebec in favour of Bill C-17? Why is the Bloc Quebecois in favour of this bill? Because it contains some very important elements that are necessary to update the Criminal Code.

I will presently discuss the main components of this bill. The third party in the House probably would have liked to see a much harder line in this bill on parole, for instance, and the repeal of section 745, but I can assure you we do not share the position of the Reform Party on this part of the Criminal Code. I think the minister has taken a major step forward, but, as I will explain later on, he should have done more.

Here are some of the main areas affected by Bill C-17. The bill proposes a series of changes to deal more effectively with the proceeds of crime. Some of these changes will help the police to carry out seizures, including the money that makes the world of organized crime go round. In politics, money makes the world go round; the same is true of organized crime. I think we must have all the tools we need to seek out the proceeds of crime.

If I may digress for a moment, this is what Mr. Bégin made very clear in a proposal that was rejected out of hand by the Minister of Justice on Monday, a proposal that favoured anti-biker legislation, with provisions that would help the police seize their money, their property, their bunkers, their armoured cars and their big limousines. The bill will make all this possible. I think that by cutting off their livelihood, it will be possible to get rid of the organized crime element. I just wanted to say that in passing.

As for other aspects of this bill, there were several changes with respect to computer-assisted crime, counterfeiting and the fraudulent use of credit cards. I think we have to move with the times. The Criminal Code goes back many years and has to be updated regularly. That is the purpose of Bill C-17. We certainly had no objection to updating the Criminal Code.

There are also provisions to deal more severely with driving under the influence. Here again, I think that considering certain court decisions, it was necessary to amend the Criminal Code in this respect.

There are also provisions-and this is very important as far as the provinces are concerned-that will save money while helping counsel with court appearances. For instance, there are provisions for videoconferencing and the issuing of warrants by means of modern communications. Here again no one would have thought of this ten years ago, but, today, with informatics and the whole field

of telecommunications, things like remote appearances are possible so as to save money for the provinces, which administer justice. All that is in Bill C-17.

Clearly we support these provisions, but, once again, I think things could have gone further, as for example with the provisions on money laundering, because this is glossed over somewhat. Canada, let us face it, is the best country for money laundering. The Liberals opposite often boast that Canada is the finest country in the world, but in this finest country in the world, we annually launder, according to estimates, between $20 billion and $90 billion.

The police estimate it as follows: only some 10 per cent of drugs are seized annually. The seizures are worth between $1.5 billion and $4.5 billion a year. A quick calculation reveals that 100 per cent would be over $20 billion.

The President of the Treasury Board is looking at me with great interest. I am sure he sees a lot of numbers, but he has only to consult the Canadian crime service and the RCMP for confirmation of my figures.

Bill C-17 should contain provisions to reinforce the whole matter of money laundering to further prevent it and to better equip the police so Canada loses its title.

I will conclude on this point. The title is awarded by the great jurists of the world and by the Americans annually in September, because American inquiries and commissions look into the matter. Every year, the Canadian government is encouraged to strengthen its legislation to prohibit this activity because of the border between Canada and the United States.

I could go on with my speech, but I see my time has run out.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

My colleagues, pursuant to the order made April 10, the question is deemed to have been put to a vote, and the recorded division is deemed to have been requested and deferred.

Is the House ready for the question?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour will please say yea.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.