House of Commons Hansard #156 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was offenders.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

The member says: "Hear, hear". They agree with it.

The government will say that we should leave the decisions with the judges of the land who are well known to make abysmal decisions in some cases.

I hear decisions like sexual assaults "occur when the woman is drunk and has passed out, and the man comes along, sees a pair of hips and helps himself" from a judge.

This country cannot afford to have a government in place that does not have the courage of its convictions and will not legislate law. It cannot afford to have the judiciary-

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry, the member's time has expired.

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11:15 a.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, today we are debating yet another of the bills the justice minister is trying to rush through the House before an election call at the end of the month.

Suddenly the justice minister has decided that he should look like he is doing something to give justice to Canadians. That is good. One wonders why it has to happen just before an election, before the justice minister is going to the voters.

In any event, here we are debating the fourth or fifth justice bill that is supposed to go through the House in a very short period of time. Bill C-55 is an act to amend the Criminal Code with respect to high risk offenders.

If there is a high risk that a criminal or an offender, if released back into society, will harm or violently reoffend, then this bill is supposed to protect society from that person by ensuring that he or she is not released back into society until no longer a high risk offender.

The original Bill C-55 was not very effective in this, therefore the justice minister is trotting up once more to strengthen it. It would be good if he succeeded. Unfortunately, as usual, a timid half measure is being trotted out, is being aggressively sold and marketed as a substantial move forward to give Canadians the protection that our society needs and is not getting.

It is up to Reform, as usual, to point out how misleading and how ineffective these measures are. It becomes a marketing battle where the Liberals and the justice minister say "we sure got tough on crime, you are a lot safer with us".

It is up to the opposition to point out how ineffective and how unsubstantial these changes are that are being sold as the real goods. As a well known commercial says, where's the beef? There is precious little in so many of these measures.

Yet if we do not support them, the minister then turns around and in a very politically crass way writes letters to the newspapers saying Reform has voted against his wonderful measures to protect people, failing to mention that these are not wonderful measures at all and do not deserve anybody's support at least not most Canadians'.

Here we are with Bill C-55. It is very interesting because Bill C-55, as members know from some of the speeches and interventions of my colleagues, does not apply to a whole list of violent criminals and certain people who are dangerous to society.

Specifically, it does not apply to those who prey on our children, who are sexual predators and who are pedophiles. This is a very interesting omission because it could so easily not have been an omission and because our debate on this bill follows very closely on the heels of our debate yesterday on Bill C-27.

Bill C-27, as is so typical with Liberal bills, puts a lot of hearts and flowers into the preamble, which of course has no legal effect but always plays the violin as to how the Liberals are so concerned about the safety of Canadians. Then the measures that follow do little or nothing to really follow up substantively on that concern.

In the preamble to Bill C-27 the first two paragraphs provide a general context and affirm Parliament's concern about violence against women and children in the areas addressed by the bill, acknowledging children's heightened vulnerability to and greater need for protection from exploitation and abuse.

Paragraph 6 of the preamble recalls Canada's undertaking in ratifying the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child to protect children from and prevent their sexual exploitation and abuse.

Paragraph 8 of the preamble expresses Parliament's wish in the interest of promoting the life, liberty and security of women and other victims of criminal harassment to strongly denounce that offence by strengthening the law in relation to it.

Here we have some nice Liberal rhetoric about the need to protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation. What do we have the very next day? We have a bill concerning criminals who are known sexual predators, who are dangerous to the safety of our children, who could be kept indefinitely out of society to protect our children, and these people are totally missing from the list of offenders who can be designated dangerous offenders under Bill C-55.

We have to ask why that would be when there is a lot lip service paid to protecting our children. In the very next bill that could protect our children from sexual predators and from people who are very likely to reoffend, and since we know that individuals falling into this category are a danger to our children, why on earth does Bill C-55 fail to ensure that these individuals can be kept out of society and protect our children from them? I have been told, and I am sure Liberal members and the Liberal justice minister know, that there is no known cure for pedophilia.

Not only does the bill omit that category of offender, but we have introduced an amendment to correct this oversight. That is very kind of Reform, I would say. It is doing our job in a constructive way to make sure that the stated objectives of the Liberal justice minister and the Liberal government to protect society are actually carried out. We have done the responsible thing.

I would like Canadians to watch very carefully when it comes time to vote on this amendment to include sexual predators and those who exploit our children in the list of people who can be kept indefinitely incarcerated under the dangerous offender provisions of Bill C-55. I am willing to bet that the Liberals will not put that in the bill. They will vote against the Reform amendment. But during the election they are going to play the violin and say "boy, do we ever care about protecting children". When push comes to shove and they could protect children, that is not in the bill and they will not even support an amendment to put it in.

I get pretty tired of seeing letters like the one printed in the Richmond News on March 23 where the justice minister has the gall to say: ``We're really trying to protect this society but Reform won't support us''. I guess not with this kind of hypocrisy and nonsense.

The hearts and flowers, the preamble, the nice stuff that is written at the beginning of these bills everyone would agree with. What Canadians need to do is look at the substance of these bills and see if there is any beef in them. Nine times out of ten there is none.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:25 a.m.

Reform

Charlie Penson Reform Peace River, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the debate on Bill C-55 and to speak specifically about the amendments we propose to bring this bill into line with reality.

This bill has generated a lot of interest for people in my riding. One of the reasons for this interest is a couple was murdered at Valleyview 10 years ago by a fellow who is serving some time in one of the penitentiaries. He is due to be released by May 1. I want to use that case to illustrate how badly this Liberal government has handled the whole criminal justice issue. It will also illustrate how our amendments to Bill C-55 will help to correct some of that imbalance.

In the last few weeks we have seen the justice minister scrambling to shore up support. He knows he will be in grave trouble during the next election campaign. The Liberal government is in grave trouble because it has mishandled the whole criminal justice issue during the past three and a half years of its mandate. This government should not be returned to office because it is not reflecting the concerns of Canadians.

Let me give this example of what has been happening. The case of Rod Martineau is a classic example of what is going on all across the country. it clearly illustrates the effects of this bill and the importance of change. Rod Martineau is the 27-year old man who assisted in the murders of two Valleyview, Alberta residents, Les and Ann McLean, on February 6, 1985.

On that day both he and Tremblay went to the McLean home with the intent to rob. Seventy-year old Les McLean was the only one home at the time. The men held him at gunpoint and waited for his wife Ann to return home. Patrick Tremblay, Martineau's partner, then shot both of them in the back of the head. The very day this happened, Rod Martineau had just been released from a young offender facility in Grand Prairie. One of the case workers had driven out to Valleyview to be released.

The two men murdered this couple because they were looking for some money from their business. Martineau was only 15 years old at the time. He had spent quite a bit of time in institutions. According to the son of Les and Ann, Rod Martineau could have fled the scene at any time of the impending crime while his partner perpetrated this crime. Instead he helped to hold the two people at gunpoint while he waited for the murder to take place, and he assisted.

Martineau first appeared in youth court but was then transferred to adult court. He was subsequently charged with second degree murder but this conviction was overturned by the supreme court, another example of our Liberal justice system. He was then sentenced to six years in prison after pleading guilty to manslaughter, robbery with violence and possession of a weapon. He was considered violent and an escape risk.

The son of the victims says that at no time has Martineau shown any remorse at all for his crimes. He has not accepted rehabilitation while serving his sentence, yet we are still letting him out on statutory release. I think he has had three releases to this point.

He was to be released the first time after serving only two-thirds of his sentence. How is this possible? We have our current justice minister to thank for this. Bill C-41, which the justice minister introduced a short time ago in this Parliament, allows for six types of conditional release. Martineau, a convicted killer, qualifies under the statutory release portion. This is an automatic release. The parole board has no say in it. All it can do it set conditions and return the individual to the penitentiary if, and in this case when, the conditions are violated.

As most people in the Peace River constituency expected, within a few short weeks of Martineau's being released under that statutory condition as given to him by the Minister of Justice, he was back in jail. That was no surprise. The correctional service says that half of all Canadian cons freed under the statutory release portion flunk out and are reincarcerated.

Although 30 per cent are rearrested on technical violations such as drug charges and abuse of alcohol, a full 20 per cent of those who are out on statutory release commit new crimes. Yet a spokesman for Correctional Service of Canada said that all it can do is its best to make the transition to the community as smooth as possible for those who are let out on statutory release. The law is the law, after all. Who do we have to thank for that law? The current justice minister and his Liberal justice system which is failing Canadians. Canadians are upset. They are angry. I hope

they will make a strong case in the next election to correct this problem.

Since the first statutory release Martineau has been released twice. After all, the poor guy has to have a chance to get back into society. Even though he has a drug problem, has never shown any remorse for his actions and has never accepted any rehabilitation, the poor man has to have a chance. On October 3, 1996 and on February 21, 1997 he was released. Both times he violated the conditions of his release almost immediately and was returned to the slammer within days.

This man will be back on the streets on May 1. His sentence is up. He is the type of individual who should be held in prison because he is a danger to society. Although it is clear to the people working in the penitentiary that Martineau is likely to reoffend, he will be released. They have no say in it because the justice minister has converted his sentence to a conditional one and his time will be up.

Given the lack of remorse and his drug problems, surely he would qualify if Bill C-55 was amended to reflect the concerns I have addressed. Specifically Bill C-55 should state that any individual who can be determined to be a danger to society should not only be assessed during the first six months of the sentence but at any time during the sentence. If there is any belief that convicted killers or persons who committed a serious crime can be rehabilitated, surely the assessment should take place near the end of their sentence, within the last six months.

The current legislation states that we can only determine if a person is a dangerous offender within six months of sentencing. That does not make any sense. Our justice critic, the member for Calgary North, suggested an amendment to the legislation. As my colleagues who have spoken before me have stated, the chance of the Liberal government accepting an amendment to Bill C-55 to allow an assessment to be made at any time during a sentence is about nil.

We have to wonder what is the motive. We have seen a lot of window dressing in the House on criminal justice issues. The gun control bill is a perfect example. Bill C-68 was modelled on the handgun registration system that has been in place since 1935. It is a poor model to use. We have more crimes being committed with handguns now than we had before in spite of the fact that there is a registration system. Now farmers, ranchers and other law-abiding people who use guns in a responsible manner will have to register their rifles and shotguns.

Most people see the bill for what it is. It is window dressing, looking like something is being done about criminal justice. It is a disservice to Canadians who want some real action on law and order and a stronger criminal justice system. It does not mean harassing farmers, ranchers and hunters. It means attacking the real problem with the criminals.

On the other side the justice minister brought forward conditional sentencing in Bill C-41. He suggested that if people are to be designated violent offenders they can only be assessed during the first six months of their sentence.

Does that make any sense? Does the government believe in rehabilitation? Obviously that is not the time to do the assessment. The assessment should be done at any time during the sentence. It would make more sense if it were done closer to the end of their sentence when we could see whether or not they were still a danger to society, have shown remorse for their action or have accepted rehabilitation. Things that make common sense do not seem to be the way the justice minister proceeds.

Members opposite will have a chance to vote on the amendment of my colleague from Calgary Northeast on Bill C-55 which states:

That Bill C-55, in clause 4, be amended by replacing lines 11 to 15 on page 3 of the following:

752.1 (1) Where an offender has been convicted of a serious personal injury offence defined in section 752 and, on application by the prosecution, at any time during the time the offender is serving the sentence imposed for the offence, the court is of

I challenge members opposite to vote for that amendment.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-55. I congratulate my colleague from Calgary Northeast on the work he has done on this important issue.

For 3.5 years members of my party have continually fought for the rights of Canadians to live in peace, free from being abused by criminals and free of criminal acts. The government has repeatedly watered down any solutions put forward. In the view of many Canadians and many members of the House it has not done the job it should have done in trying to protect Canadians. It should have made the protection of innocent civilians the number one priority of the justice department. The government continually pursues the theory that the most important aspect is the protection of the rights of criminals instead of the rights of innocent civilians.

I will deal with a few issues in Bill C-55 and some of the things suggested by members of my party. One of the most egregious occurrences throughout the tenure of this Parliament is that criminals who have been proven to be dangerous to Canadians, pedophiles, sexual predators and people who simply cannot control their violent tendencies, go into the cycle of crime, punishment, incarceration and release. The real victims are Canadians who are subjected to their violence.

I remember working in a jail some years ago. I was called to the jail one Sunday night to visit an individual who was to be released. I was the doctor on duty at that time. When I started to examine the individual he attacked me and the guards who were with me.

When I looked at his rap sheet of violent behaviour that was longer than my arm. He had a psychiatric problem. It was not his fault. He was to be released into the public the following Monday. As sure as the sun rises in the east, he will commit another violent offence and hurt another innocent civilian.

I spoke to the head of the jail. In my naivety I asked how an individual who both he and I knew would hurt somebody else could be released. His response was that it was the law and he could nothing about it.

It is one of the reasons I am sure many of my colleagues and I got involved. We have seen examples of situations where patently violent people are being released into the public. A person who has committed a violent offence may have a psychiatric problem, may be paranoid or a paranoid schizophrenic and may need medication and an environment where he can be treated. It is not fair for him to be released. Certainly it is not fair to the public that will be subjected to his behaviour.

Once again the government had three years of ideal opportunity to do something about the matter but it has done nothing. Furthermore it has done nothing to address the precursors to crime.

Another tragedy occurring throughout the country is the movement of psychiatric patients into the community at any cost. Some of them ought to be moved into the community and will function very well there. Some however do not.

We need not look any further than at the streets in the downtown core of large urban centres to see many patients who are living in conditions of squalor and abuse because some bright light in some ivory tower decided they were better off in the community than in an environment where they can be taken care of, medicated and live safe and productive lives.

A silent epidemic is occurring in our communities across the country. Unfortunately the government has again chosen not to work with its provincial counterparts to try to deal with the issue.

All of us in this room know of individuals who have psychiatric problems. Some of them function very well in society but a small segment of them do not. It is high time we realized that some of them need to be in a care giver environment where they can be medicated appropriately and taken care of. This subgroup of individuals cannot take care of themselves. They do not deserve to be wandering around the streets, living in squalor and not being medicated.

I put forward a private member's bill 2.5 years ago, the three strikes and you are out bill. It said that any individual who commits three violent offences should be put in jail. People who have demonstrated that they are a danger to society should be put in jail for 25 years. The government refused to make it votable and hence it died on the Order Paper.

My colleague from Calgary North repeatedly fought for the same issue. Again it was stonewalled by the government. Why has it stonewalled the Reform Party? Why has it repeatedly stonewalled my colleagues from putting forth constructive, sensible solutions to keep individuals who are dangerous offenders, a harm to society and a harm to innocent civilians off the streets?

My colleagues have made reasonable suggestions. They asked that the dangerous offender designation be expanded. I ask the public to listen to members of my party who wish to expand the designation. We wish to extend the dangerous offender designation to individuals who commit sexual interference crimes, people who obtain sexual services from a child, people who corrupt children, people who commit sexual exploitation of children and sexual acts against children under the age of 18 such as incest, sexual assault and sexual assault with a weapon.

How could the government argue with a party that wants to protect children from being subjected to individuals who find it acceptable to rape children and commit sexual assaults on them?

Furthermore my colleagues raised solutions that would make it an offence for anybody to commit rape, attempted rape or indecent assault on a male or female under the age of 18 years. They are not misdemeanours. They are serious offences and acts of violence. These solutions have been put forward by them in an attempt to protect innocent civilians from violent offences and assaults.

Can we imagine a woman, a man, a child or a teenager being subjected to these offences? Can we imagine the people who committed the offences being free to go wherever they wish? Can we imagine the sheer, stark terror in their minds? They are innocent. They do not deserve to live like that. All members of the House have constituents who have written to them detailing very poignantly and passionately the fear in their lives after being subjected to these atrocities and what comes after. They are the victims who pay the penalty and will for decades to come. Most of them never, ever get over it.

With respect to the issue of prevention, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Human Resources Development and the Minister of Justice need to address the precursors to crime. There is a need to tap into some of the very good ideas in our country to address the precursors to crime. It does not involve counselling when a person

is 20 or 30 years of age. It involves dealing with children at the ages of four and five and their families.

Only by addressing family circumstances and some of the terrible violence, sexual abuse, neglect and assault that some children endure, will we be able to truly stop the growing tide of youth crime later on. Only by dealing with these children and their families will there ever be a possibility to stem the tide of crime, particularly violent crime in our society.

In closing, we have laid down our gloves and have challenged the government. My colleagues have put forward constructive solutions. We now challenge the government to amend the bill to make it more fair and to protect Canadians from coast to coast.

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11:45 a.m.

Reform

Bob Ringma Reform Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-55 is an act to amend the Criminal Code regarding high risk offenders, to amend the Correctional and Conditional Release Act, the Criminal Records Act, the Prisons and Reformatories Act and the Department of the Solicitor General Act. It takes in a lot.

I ask the question: Does the Reform Party believe in tightening up our laws concerning criminal justice? The answer is absolutely.

Then the question comes from across the way: "Then why does Reform not support specific bills such as C-55 which is before us today?" The answer to that is because such bills are inadequate and the Minister of Justice will not listen adequately and make the changes that are needed.

In fact, Minister Rock has gone on a bit of a counteroffensive-

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I would ask all members not to refer to their colleagues by their surnames, but by their constituency or ministerial title.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

11:45 a.m.

Reform

Bob Ringma Reform Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the Minister of Justice, who has launched a bit of a counterattack which really tries to finger Reform.

He says in the excerpt which I will read from this column: "Rather than working constructively with the government, Reform has repeatedly voted against key government initiatives designed to protect victims rights". The reason we do that is to try to get the Minister of Justice to bring forward legislation that is meaningful to Canadians as well as to criminals who we should be attacking.

I guess the perfect rebuttal to the Minister of Justice has to come from some of the victims of crime. I have in front of me a statement from Gary Rosenfeldt, the parent of one of Clifford Olson's victims.

Mr. Rosenfeldt writes:

As a parent of one of Clifford Olson's victims, I am shocked and dismayed that Justice Minister Allan Rock and the government of Canada would state that members of the Reform Party are exploiting us in giving Clifford Olson a platform".

This victim's father, who is a victim himself, goes on to say:

The exact opposite is true. John Nunziata's bill to repeal section 745 passed second reading in the House in December, 1994, despite active opposition by the Liberal cabinet. I know, I was in the House that night and I watched the proceedings. The government then stalled the bill in committee and failed to introduce its own legislation until the last moment in June of 1996, immediately before the summer recess. The bill was not able to be passed because the government did not give it a high enough priority and thus required all party consent.

That is what we are going through here over and over again with more and more legislation.

Mr. Rosenfeldt goes on to say:

It is unconscionable to suggest that a government with a 50-seat majority should have to rely on the consent of the opposition to get its legislation passed. The bill failed to pass because the Government of Canada and its justice minister failed victims' families and all Canadians in its priorities. At that time, Mr. Rock tried to blame the Bloc. Today he tries to blame the Reform Party. If Mr. Rock is looking for responsibility for the Olson hearing proceeding, he need only look in the mirror. We are confident that all Canadians will remember that Clifford Olson's platform was built and maintained by the Liberal Party of Canada.

We are going through the same thing on Bill C-55 as we went through on the legislation I just mentioned and even on legislation that is coming up. The Minister of Justice has failed to act in a timely manner.

The Canadian Police Association has taken the unusual step of taking out a full page ad in yesterday's Hill Times , the paper of April 14. In it, the Canadian Police Association is taking issue with DNA legislation that the minister is perhaps going to bring forward.

What they say in this full page ad open letter to all members of Parliament is that although they want this DNA legislation, and they want it as bad as the Reform Party wants it, they have reservations about it.

They say: "It is difficult for us as the association which has initially and vigorously promoted the need for an effective DNA data bank system to write to you now urging rejection of this bill as currently drafted".

No doubt, the Minister of Justice will counterattack the Canadian Police Association for doing this. However, the Canadian Police Association is talking, as the Reform Party is talking, saying: "For goodness sakes, you have had three years and more to wrestle with these things. Why have you not put in the amendments that we and others have suggested?"

The Canadian Police Association goes on to say: "In the press conference held last week to introduce the bill, Justice Minister Rock reflected that it is important that we get the DNA data bank correct the first time. We could not agree more. We think, all of us, especially Canadians and you as their elected representatives,

deserve better than what has been thrown together in these dying days before an election lest we suffer under it for years to come".

That association has put quite clearly what are the issues. The issues are inadequate legislation and the attitude of the Minister of Justice toward legislation that he proposes which is counter proposed by members in this House. I am afraid the minister has far too liberal a view of what we think is needed.

Let us look quickly at the four motions that this party is proposing as amendments to Bill C-55. The first motion is an attempt to strengthen the bill, to make it effective legislation. Will the government listen? That is the question. Motion No. 1 proposed by the member for Calgary North would allow the crown the right to seek dangerous offender status for persons convicted of crimes causing serious personal injury at any time during that offender's penitentiary sentence. That is the nub of it. Bill C-55 as currently proposed is inadequate. Reformers are saying we should be able to seek dangerous offender status at any time during a sentence.

The next motion that we have moved to amend Bill C-55 would, on conviction for two or more violent offences causing serious personal injury, would automatically make any offender a long term offender. It is easy to see why the Minister of Justice opposes that. It is a little too strong. It is a little too hard hitting.

Motion No. 3 proposed by the Reform member for Calgary North amends certain things. We believe that this list of Criminal Code provisions does not go far enough in the legislation for the purpose of assigning long term offender status to certain criminals. This amendment would expand the list of offences used for designating criminals as long term offenders to include a wider variety of sexual offences, especially sex crimes against children. Surely we need tough legislation in those areas, but we are not getting it.

The final amendment proposed by Reform is Motion No. 4. Under the current provisions of Bill C-55 there would be a review of indeterminate sentences after seven years of custody rather than three. That is going in the right direction. We propose that it would be after 15 years. I see my time is up.

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11:55 a.m.

Reform

Bill Gilmour Reform Comox—Alberni, BC

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak on Bill C-55 dealing with high risk offenders.

In a couple of words, this legislation is not enough. The categories need to be expanded. My colleagues have given numerous examples of the areas that need to be addressed.

As my colleague mentioned earlier, it is the 15 to 20 per cent of high risk offenders, those who cannot be trusted not to reoffend, are the ones who need to be dealt with and are not dealt with in this bill.

Once again we see the Liberals tinkering with the problem and not really addressing it. We have seen that in the three and half years that we have been in this House. I would like to go through a number of these bills and show where the government has played around on the edges and has not addressed the issue.

I will start with Bill C-68, gun control. Canadians want crime control, not gun control. I have been a hunter for 25 years and I wonder why I am the target of the Liberal legislation when the criminals will not register their guns.

In my mind it is very much a tax grab. It is a $100 million registration. It is more money into the coffers of this government and the bottom line is that it will not solve crime. We would have been behind Bill C-68 100 per cent if it solved crime but it does not do that.

The government was very short in its thinking. About 25 per cent of Canadians are gun owners. These people have long memories. It is a rural versus an urban issue. It is not a party issue. As we saw when the government was voting, a number of government members who were largely from rural areas voted against this bill. They represented their constituents and they were punished. That is what happens to a Liberal member who votes for his constituents against poor legislation. Reform will repeal this bill because we want to deal with the crime aspects of guns, not implement a registration system that does not work.

Another issue is victims rights. Over a year ago my colleague from Fraser Valley West brought the victims rights issue to this House. It was voted on and passed at second reading by this House and then it sat for over a year in committee. All of a sudden we are getting into an election, so what does this government do? It is trying to rush through the victims right issue which will not pass because there is not enough time. The government is trying to gain ownership on an issue. It must have done some polling and recognized that Canadians are fed up with a system that gives rights to the criminal that are over and above the rights of the victim.

My colleague was just commenting on the issue of the DNA data bank. DNA is like a fingerprint. Every individual has a different DNA imprint. Whether it is a bit of saliva, a drop of blood, a hair or a drop of semen, the DNA imprint can be taken and placed in a data bank. The government is now bringing this through at the last hour knowing that it will not pass as full legislation. For the life of me I cannot understand why a tool like DNA testing is not at the top of the justice minister's agenda.

Consider Bill C-41, conditional sentencing. My colleagues have brought up many examples to illustrate that conditional sentencing simply does not work. They are letting people out on the streets who are reoffending. People are committing horrendous crimes and they are not spending a day in prison. The judges are letting them off. Conditional sentencing is not working.

On section 745 of the Criminal Code two words sum up the Liberal justice program: Clifford Olson. The government had the opportunity with section 745 to keep Clifford Olson behind bars but it did not do that. In my mind the government is going to pay for that come election day. Canadians are sick and tired of seeing an individual who murdered at least 11 children playing and tinkering with the justice system. He is using it and hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars. He is laughing at each and every one of us, which is absolutely wrong.

Reform would hold a binding national referendum on capital punishment. Let Canadians decide. This is far too important an issue for politicians. During the Mulroney era, 80 per cent of Canadians said that they wanted the return of capital punishment. What was the Tory answer? Canadians do not really know, they do not really understand the issue. The Tories would not bring it in. Let Canadians decide. Hold a binding national referendum on the return of capital punishment for first degree murder.

This is a long list of legislation the government has brought in. The Young Offenders Act is another example of where the government has tinkered with the edges but has not dealt with the problem. There must be accountability in our youth. Young people who commit crimes must be accountable, as must their parents. That is not happening. Their names have to be disclosed. The community should know what these young people have done. They are laughing at the system. They know exactly how far they can go.

My 17-year old son will tell me exactly what goes on in school. The kids sit and talk about it. They know where the limits are. The ones who want to break the law play the system.

The justice system is in a mess, from the Young Offenders Act to the judges to the parole system to plea bargaining. The government is not addressing the issue.

Canadians are tired of seeing offenders walk free, victims being abused and a government that does not deal with this issues. These will be election issues. Gun control and the Young Offenders Act will come back. The government will have to account on election day for its poor performance.

Bill C-55 concerns high risk offenders. It is another example of the government not going far enough. We need to go further.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Reform

Werner Schmidt Reform Okanagan Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-55 deals with serious offences and the consequences that should be the result of engaging in behaviour which can be described adequately by two adjectives, heinous and repulsive. We find these offences difficult to express and difficult to define.

The proposals which have been made by my colleague would add at least ten to those which I am prepared to read into the record this morning. They have been listed, but I want to review briefly the things that are being discussed.

Serious offences should include sexual exploitation of others, bestiality in the presence of children or insisting that a child commit bestiality, a parent or a guardian who procures sexual activity from a child, living off the prostitution of a child, obtaining sexual services from a child, incest, sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm, and rape.

Any one of those is extremely serious. Not only are they a violation of the person, the consequences to the victim are automatic, immediate and very often permanent. Yes, the individual may learn to adjust. Yes, the individual may go on with their life. Yes, the individual may draw a line and say they will forget the incident and move on. Inevitably and invariably the victim of these kinds of behaviour says that it does not go away. The healing process which is essential in order to carry on normal activities and have a normal lifestyle is very difficult. Very often we do not deal with these offences with the sincerity and seriousness which which they ought to be dealt.

There is a provision in clause 15 which gives me cause for grave concern: "If the long term offender expresses the interest in being supervised in an aboriginal community, that community must receive notice of the supervision order and have the opportunity to propose a plan for the release and integration into the community". That is a very good provision. However, it would appear to be an example of the Liberal government's decision to treat some Canadians differently than others and bring about inequality.

Aboriginal communities will have the right to a notice of the release of a high risk offender into their community and the right to become involved in planning for their release. Other Canadians do not receive this notice or opportunity. That is a very difficult situation.

We need to know that this kind of provision ought not to exist. The offender is as dangerous in one community as in any other community. The issue has to be laid to rest once and for all. We have enough distinction and separation among Canadians. The time has come to build a united country, a country in which individuals are equal, where provinces are equal and where we can look forward to equality before and under the law, before and under the

Constitution and under every piece of legislation in this country. Notwithstanding the comments that are being made from across the way, every one of us should be equal and we should all be treated equally before and under the law.

The time has come for us to recognize that we have to do that. I would suggest that the hon. member who is making some comments should check his facts to see that we do subscribe to and recognize the equality of individuals before and under the law. We need to be factual and honest in our situation.

I want to go on to another thing here, victims. There are two kinds of victims. I talked about the first set of victims, the ones against whom rape is committed and against whom all kinds of influences are brought to bear. Those are the direct victims. There are indirect victims as well. These indirect victims are the families, associates and friends of the victims who suffered directly.

The mother of a child who has been raped suffers seriously, not in the same way her daughter or her son did, but suffers nevertheless. We identify with our children and our partners. Mr. Speaker, I cannot imagine what kind of an impact it would have if your wife were raped. If the Minister of Justice would have that kind of experience in his family he would not treat this in quite the same way as it is being treated at the present time.

Those are not the only indirect victims. The other set of indirect victims are members of society.

Not too long ago Mindy Tran was killed in Kelowna. Still today young children on their way to kindergarten are saying to their parents "mommy, should we not stop that person over there, she is walking alone?" They are afraid. This young person who is going to kindergarten and who said this did not know Mindy Tran and the anguish and agony that was created in the family, but she did understand that there is danger out there. If that kind of danger is allowed to go on unhampered and unhindered by the kinds of things we do to serious offenders, we as a society are in trouble.

There are the direct victims but there are also the indirect victims. There are some who would argue that this whole business of punishment really does not deter anyone. In a sense that is true. I remember having a bit of a discussion not too long with a young fellow who said that fines deter. He said when he drives he slows down when he sees a policeman. I said "After you have passed the policeman you speed up again, right? Are you breaking the law? You broke the law before and you broke the law again after so you paid the fine. Have you sped since you last paid your fine?" He said yes. Fines do not deter.

In some cases where people are a threat to reoffend in a similar way, we have to make sure that society is protected to the degree possible so that the offence does not again take place in that society. Something has to be done that will protect the rest of us.

I want to go beyond this point and indicate that we need to get into the business of preventing crime in the first place. It starts at home with an individual sense of what is right and what is wrong. Actions begin with thoughts. If we think right we act right. If we think wrong we act wrong. If we do not have a good governor of what is right and what is wrong in our conscience we will do what is wrong.

If we want to engender in our communities, our people or our citizens a sense of justice and fairness, we must also build in a clear understanding of what is right and what is wrong. That means strong families where values can be transferred from one generation to another and where the parents exemplify and demonstrate in their day to day operations how they can actually live in a just, fair and upright society.

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12:15 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the debate all morning. It is passing strange that Reform members are the ones who seem to be concerned mainly with justice issues. It is very strange we are the only ones who are critiquing the bill. There are other opposition parties in the House. Why are they not addressing it?

I attended the NDP national convention in Regina this week. It did not convert me. I am still a Reformer. In fact I am probably a much stronger Reformer than before I went there. It was interesting a party that claims to be a national party did not mention justice issues at its convention. Somehow they were forgotten. There was no mention of unity issue other than a mention that social programs would keep Quebec in Canada and democratic issues were not important to Canadians. I beg to differ.

The NDP claims to be a grassroots party. It neglected the important element of making sure its constituents were represented. To omit that subject in a national convention was a gross oversight.

Members of the NDP did not talk about the Young Offenders Act. In the province of Saskatchewan crime is a major problem. People will commit crimes, wreck vehicles, do all kinds of things and write on the windshield of vehicles: "Thank God for the Young Offenders Act". We have a huge problem. They openly hide behind the legislation. That should have been mentioned at the NDP convention.

They forgot to talk about capital punishment, something that 80 per cent of the people would like to see come back. Of all things they omitted discussion on gun control. I wonder why. I guess there is a big split between the national NDP and the provincial NDP on the issue so they do not want to talk about those things. The forgot to talk about consecutive sentencing.

Many issues need to be discussed, but let me come to my primary point this morning. What is the primary purpose of government? We should be dealing with that fundamental issue. Everyone in the House will agree the primary purpose of government is to provide for law and order in society, to protect citizens,

to protect the weak and vulnerable and to protect those at risk from the criminal element taking advantage of them. That is fundamental. That is foundational. That is what we should be doing.

The purpose of government is to restrain evil within society so that we can continue to enjoy freedom, move about freely and pursue various things in our lives that we think are important. The government must provide for that and it is not happening the way it should. Bill C-55 is a very good example of a Liberal government half measure to control crime.

I have no illusions about the limits of government. To some extent we can pass the best laws in the country and it may not change people. We can pass laws. We can enforce them. We can control evil to some extent. However we cannot make people good.

Reformers recognize the need for strong families in society to allow for the transmission of values, for cohesion and stability. Families are the basic building block. Without strong families all the best laws in the world will not do any good.

That is why the third part of our election platform deals with that important aspect. We need that balance. Much of what government is doing is eroding the emphasis on the value of family in society. We need that.

How important is the issue of justice? Let me give an example from my experience in my own town. My children have all attended the local high school. They describe to me what it is like to sit and listen to young offenders who return to school the next morning and boast about what they did the night before, the exploits for which they received no punishment. They mock the justice system. They laugh at it. They openly ridicule it.

How serious is that? It affects good children in the school. People who respect the law and are trying to do their best begin to say that it does not matter what they do. They ask why they should try to do their best, study or do well at their jobs. They see justice not being enforced and the law being openly disregarded and mocked. That is why government has to do its job. That is why I am addressing this issue.

Let us look at some of the problems. I have a whole series of articles on problems within the system that directly relate to Bill C-55, the half measure the Liberals are trying to push through in the dying moments of Parliament. It is a piece of legislation that needs to be fixed.

One headline "Deviant Justice: He raped, served his time and is coming to a neighbourhood near you". Violent sexual offenders are being set free in society. No wonder people are questioning what is going on. No wonder they are asking why the government does not do more to control crime? We need to do more. Bill C-55 is a half measure. Criminals still have more rights than their victims. That is a serious problem.

I sat beside Marie King Forest during the parole hearings of Darrell Crook a couple of months ago. She could not understand why the justice minister allowed the man who had murdered her husband to continue to torture his victims by coming before a jury and appealing his sentence to reduce it to 15 years. She could not understand the pain and agony that the justice system puts the victims through. It is not acceptable.

Mr. Crook was able to talk to the jury openly and to explain what a wonderful person he had become. The victims could not speak openly to the jury. What they had to say was censored. They had statements they wanted to read and those statements were censored. Why? It was because criminals have more rights than victims. Mrs. King Forest's son could not read his statement because the judge said it might influence the jury in its decision.

For Heaven's sake why do we have these hearings? I cannot understand. There is something seriously wrong with our justice system when criminals have more rights than their victims. It tears my heart out to see the pain and agony the victims of murderers have to go through when they attend parole hearings and listen every couple of years. There is something seriously wrong and we need to correct it.

Many more topics need to be dealt with. The fundamental problem is that government is not doing its job. It is not protecting the citizens. It is allowing violent rapists and murderers to be on the street. I hope at some point we address this matter further.

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is the House ready for the question?

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those opposed will please say nay.

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

The next question is on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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12:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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12:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.