House of Commons Hansard #150 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was accused.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Reform

Bob Mills Reform Red Deer, AB

Madam Speaker, as I mentioned, the immediate problem we have to deal with right now is that these kinds of people must not be out in the general population.

What about the big problem? It is a long term process. As the hon. member mentioned we need to go back to family and some of those values. There is a bill in the other place that says we cannot spank. That indicates the Liberal thinking that has caused the problems we now have. We have to make changes that will help the family. We could have tax deductions that favour one parent or the other staying at home with their children, that do not make it so necessary for them both to get out and earn full incomes. We have to do things like that because of what has gone wrong with our system.

I certainly do not know all the answers but we are looking at them. We are saying that we should emphasize family and the things that happen when children are young. We should talk about what happens in the education system. We need to work on all those things collectively in the House as opposed to participating in partisan politics.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to return to Ottawa today to take part in debate on some of the issues facing the country. I am happy to see so many Reformers and so few Liberals in the House today. Maybe they are watching their leader play golf on closed circuit television.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

I ask the hon. member to refrain from referring to members being in or not in the House.

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4:35 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

I apologize. When Reformers were elected in 1993 and prior we said to our constituents that if the government put forward a bill worthy of support we would support it. Even though the frequency of a good piece of legislation coming from the Liberal government is about as often as a comet goes through the skies, we have here a piece of legislation that is worthy of support. It might be coincidental that the Hale-Bopp is flying across the skies right now and a good piece of Liberal legislation comes forward.

I may give it too much credit when I say good. It is acceptable because it goes some way to providing some changes to the criminal justice system in relationship to how records of victims can be brought into the court.

The purpose of Bill C-46 is to strike a fair balance between the rights of the victims and the rights of the accused at sexual assault trials. In past trials of this nature defence lawyers would often ask for a complainant's psychiatric report, reports from the Children's Aid Society, social welfare, school and employment records, as well as personal diaries and journals.

There is no doubt that in this country as in many countries there are some very unscrupulous lawyers in the practice that have taken the opportunity and privilege of asking for all these records and proceeded in the case not to try to prove the innocence of their client but to try to win the case. They take any little piece of material they can from the records and attempt to discredit the complainant. It is not a popular way for defence lawyers to deal with crimes like these. However defence lawyers are demanding to see these records sometimes to provide a full and fair defence of the accused. Too many times defence lawyers have used this information to directly, viciously and unscrupulously attack the complainants in crimes, which is very wrong. It is one of the reasons many Canadians rank lawyers below politicians, in particular Liberal politicians.

It is understandable why some people who have been sexually assaulted have been reluctant to come forward and press charges. They know what goes on in the courtrooms. They have seen evidence in the newspaper and in the media of complainants being viciously attacked by defence lawyers who have obtained records that are years old, have asked the court to look at the record and have said that the person is not credible in any way because of something that happened 32 years ago.

They are on the attack, attack, attack. It does not matter whether the evidence against their client is overwhelming. They may know that if they rely on the evidence to try to show their client's innocence they could very well lose the case. They go on the attack and unscrupulously use records of the complainants.

There is a need for legislation to balance the right of the accused to a full and fair defence and the right of the victim to privacy. I would suggest that the latter is of prime importance in this case.

Bill C-46 tries to strike that balance by establishing a two-step process that would deal with defence lawyers obtaining these records. The complainant's lawyer is given the ability to object to certain arguments during the in camera hearings. The judges have to be satisfied with the argument put forward by the accused for orders to be sent out. If the judges feel some of the records are not relevant to the case they can refuse to let them be introduced.

Under the Canadian justice system defendants have a right to a fair trial. Unfortunately most trials show little sign of any type of justice or fairness, particularly when it comes to victims of crime.

Having sat in this 35th Parliament I know that victims rights are not something the Liberal government understands or has ever been prepared to deal with.

The Reform Party has pressed the Liberal government and the Liberal justice minister over and over again for the last 3.5 years to take some action on the issue of victims rights. Our suggestions, our comments and our private member's bill on the issue have met with deaf ears on that side of the House.

It is coincidental again that there might be another comet coming. On the eve of an election, in the 11th hour before an election, all of a sudden the Liberal government and justice minister recognize there are victims of crime in society. Lo and behold they are to become overnight the champions of victims rights.

I do not call that giving Canadians and victims of crime a fair shake. I call that exploitation of victims. Were there not an election pending the Liberal justice minister would not be dealing with the issue. He knows the Reform Party has been effective in dealing with the issue, in bringing it to the public's awareness and in bringing the lack of sensitivity of the justice minister to the public's awareness. He knows, his Liberal strategists know and their campaign managers know that they had better show they are trying to do something. They had better give some sort of illusion that they are trying to do something.

Some time this week the Minister of Justice and the Liberal government will make a mock attempt to show they are the champions of victims rights, but Canadian people are a lot smarter than that. They are not going to buy this facade that the Liberal government and the justice minister are putting forward.

Speaking of private members' business, here is a good example of the Liberals' lack of recognition of victims of crime in this country. My private member's Motion No. 78 to strengthen and enhance deterrents for people who drink and then jump in their cars and drive was passed in this House. It was adopted by the House in February.

This is a crime that kills 1,800 people a year currently, injures some 90,000 people a year currently and costs Canadians billions of dollars because people drink and drive in this country and they have not had adequate deterrents and governments have not addressed this.

This motion is sitting on some shelf somewhere. A motion that deals with a crime that is 100 per cent preventable, a motion that deals with a crime that kills some 1,800 people a year, about four

and a half times more people than murder, a motion that deals with a crime that injures some 90,000 people a year and creates untold misery for the victims of this crime is sitting on some shelf because this Liberal government does not have the backbone to deal with it. So much for the recognition of victims rights in this country. So much for the concern of this Liberal justice minister for the victims of crime. The people of Canada will not be fooled by this facade that is coming.

Motion No. 78 would not be the first time the Liberal government ignored the will of Parliament when it comes to strengthening the justice system and putting victims first.

The House passed a private member's bill, and I am sure the chairman of the justice committee will remember this one, Bill C-226, which would have abolished section 745 of the Criminal Code, thereby denying killers an opportunity at early parole. No one in the House can forget the passing of Bill C-226. No one can forget it but there are many in the House, including the Liberal justice minister and the Liberal chairman of the justice committee, who can easily ignore it. They cannot forget it but they can ignore it.

Once this bill passed, at the direction of the justice minister, it sat in limbo at the justice committee for about two years. It was never dealt with even though it was the will of the House, even though millions of Canadians across the country wanted this bill to be enforced. Finally the committee tried to scrap the bill. It tried to scrap it but it failed. It remains before the committee to this day and yet will never be brought forward before the committee because it is not the will of the Minister of Justice, nor probably the will of the Liberal members on the justice committee.

The passage of the bill was the will of Parliament. The fact that it was the will of Parliament does not matter. The fact that it was the will of the House does not matter one bit to the Liberal justice minister because it does not fit in with his Liberal philosophy that individuals are not responsible for what they do because it is society that made them that way.

Let all victims of crime in this country, let all people who fear for their safety, let all law-abiding citizens who have concerns about the safety of their family and children hear this. The Minister of Justice said in this House not a few months ago that the number one priority of the criminal justice system in this country is the rehabilitation and the reintegration of criminals into society.

That is exactly what he said in this House. The average Canadian is out there saying that punishment for crime does not count. Protection of our society does not count. The rights of victims do not count.

What counts is the philosophy of the Minister of Justice and his friends in upper York, in Toronto, as they sit around sipping cappuccino and discussing how society is so tough on everyone that criminals are a result of society and should not be treated too badly. That does not count.

It was no surprise that Bill C-226 did not get very far once it was adopted by this House. It does not fit into the philosophy of the Minister of Justice and many of these Liberals opposite.

Victims rights groups fully backed Bill C-226 but that does not matter to the Minister of Justice. It does not matter to the chairman of the Liberal justice committee. Canadians from across the country were on national television imploring the Liberal Minister of Justice to deal with this bill but that does not matter.

People who live in Winnipeg-St. James stood up in the media and said they want section 745 of the Criminal Code abolished but their member of Parliament for Winnipeg-St. James came to this House and said that basically he did not care what the people in his riding said, that he did not care that the people in Winnipeg-St. James said they wanted section 745 abolished. He does not care about that. "The Minister of Justice said that it would not happen and I am a good Liberal and it will not happen".

To dodge criticism, the justice minister brought in some half baked measures with respect to amending section 745, measures that only require killers to jump through a few more hoops before applying for early parole.

These are good. One of the amendments would ensure that serial killers who murdered after 1997 would not have access to a 745 review. That is not bad. Sitting in prisons in this country are several serial killers who are perfectly at liberty to spend taxpayer dollars and bring back tragic memories of the victims of crime. We are going through the Clifford Olson thing. They do not fit into this bill.

The justice minister said that we cannot do that because there will be a court challenge. I do not care if there are a dozen court challenges. Clifford Olson should not be allowed to apply for early parole and the Liberals across the way know it.

Their amendments were nonsense and that is why the Reform Party voted against them. They were nonsense and they did not in any way reflect what the Canadian people wanted. That is why the Reform Party voted against them.

These Liberals across the way are saying that Reformers vote against all the good things they put forward. When they put through something good we will support it. However, this bill we are talking about now is just milk toast.

The Liberals had plenty of time to address victim rights since their election in 1993 and they have not done it. Now an election is looming and it is time. Let us throw a few little carrots out there. They want to create an illusion that they really mean it.

That is nonsense. The Liberals tinkered with sentencing amendments and introduced a reverse onus provision with respect to the Young Offenders Act, transfer to adult court. In the end, justice is not served.

We could go on and on to talk about conditional sentencing. That is a wonderful one. In Alberta a man fired a gun at his wife in an attempt to kill her. Fortunately he missed. He was given some sort of a Mickey Mouse conditional sentence to do some work in the community.

In B.C. a man convicted of sexually assaulting his 11-year old babysitter once a week for three years is given some sort of a Mickey Mouse conditional Liberal sentencing type provision.

A conditional of sentence of two years was handed down to a B.C. man who raped a woman in his car because this type of sentencing fits into this Liberal philosophy.

It is a travesty the way this Liberal government treats victims of crime in this country. Their bleeding heart approach to punishing people who commit crimes is a travesty.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Speaker, I was hoping to hear how the Reform Party members were going to vote or whether they support or do not support Bill C-46.

I cannot figure that out. Bill C-46 is a major initiative to deal with issues of great seriousness to victims because of the numbers of these types of crimes and the number that have been prosecuted. It turns out that most of the victims are female.

I wonder if the hon. member could let us know if he is going to vote for Bill C-46 in the same way he voted against the gun bill, which all those victims wanted, and against Bill C-41, which victims wanted, and other initiatives that we have taken. Is he going to vote for or against Bill C-46?

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4:55 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, if the hon. member had been listening to what I said she would have clearly heard me say I intend to support Bill C-46.

Certainly this is far from a major initiative, for goodness' sake. If this bill is a major initiative to the hon. member, the chair of the Liberal Justice committee, then this country is in a lot more trouble than we think it is.

(The sitting of the House was suspended at 4.57 p.m.)

The House resumed at 5.21 p.m.

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4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Before the interruption the hon. member for Prince George-Bulkley Valley had the floor. He was giving a response to a question. I invite him to resume his response.

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4:55 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. chairman of the justice committee asked me if we were supporting Bill C-46. I said that bill has some merit and in all likelihood we will be supporting it. Then the member asked me why we did not support Bill C-68. There is quite a contrast in credibility in those two questions.

I want to clearly say to the chairman of the justice committee and all Liberal members that the reason the Reform Party did not support Bill C-68 was it was a completely redundant piece of legislation. It had no value. We are inclined to support bills which have value, but that bill had none.

Members of the Reform Party, I included, stood in the House day after day debating Bill C-68 and we implored the Minister of Justice and all Liberal members to give us one substantive piece of evidence that Bill C-68 would stop the criminal use of firearms and would fight crime in the country. If they had been able to do that, perhaps we might have supported the bill. However, in all the hours of debate on Bill C-68 the Minister of Justice was unable to answer that question. He was unable to provide one shred of evidence that the gun control bill would do any good for the country or would prevent one crime in the country involving a firearm.

Everyone in Canada knows that the reason is law-abiding citizens do not commit crimes with firearms. It is the crooks who commit the crimes. I cannot imagine one crook in this country who gives a darn about the Liberal justice minister's gun control bill.

Therefore he was unable to reply to that question, as he has been unable to reply to many questions. Today the hon. member for Crowfoot asked him some great questions in question period and he was unable to reply.

As we have done so many times in representing the people of Canada, we have asked pertinent questions, meaningful questions on justice issues, on behalf of victims of crime, on behalf of law-abiding citizens, but the Liberal government is lost somewhere in space with the Hale-Bopp comet and is not with it when it comes to justice issues.

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5:25 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak this bill. To put the chair of the justice

committee at ease, I anticipate that I will be supporting this bill when it comes to a vote. This bill, which deals with the production of records in sexual offence proceedings, attempts to find a compromise between conflicting interests on an important topic. Although, I would argue with the chair of the justice committee that this is hardly the kind of stuff that will make women, children and families feel more secure in their homes tonight. I do not know that is going to happen, but it is a bill we will be able to support because it deals with the very important matter of records in sexual offence proceedings.

There is no doubt that of all the crimes committed in Canada, and there are many of them and none very nice, the one that does strike fear in most people more than any other is sexual crime. It is no accident that around the world when an invading army comes into another land it will plunder, steal and burn the houses, but when it wants to degrade people and treat them as less than human it will often commit sexual crimes against that population. We have seen that recently over in Europe. Certainly in Africa and other places it is common to wars. Part of what makes it a war against humanity is the degrading nature of sexual crimes.

This bill attempts to find that balance between the right of a person who has been accused of a crime to have the right to cross-examine the accuser. On the other hand, in times past the lawyers have often gone on a fishing expedition. Rather than seek information that is germane to the topic and the case, they end up with a fishing expedition that asks for everything. It asks for diaries and letters. It goes into a person's past which sometimes has nothing to do with the case and is totally irrelevant except that it strikes fear into the heart of the person being cross-examined.

This bill tries to find the balance between when the accuser needs some protection from that fishing expedition and when the person being accused has the right to say "hold on, I am innocent and I need the right to cross-examine". This bill attempts to find that balance. There are competing interests.

Persons have been wrongfully accused of sexual crimes in this country and in others. It is only right that they be allowed to defend themselves and use all the systems they can, all the cross-examination that is necessary in order to bring our the truth, because the truth is what a court case should get to. This bill does seem to find that balance. Like all bills, it is not perfect but perfection eludes most of us so there is enough good in this bill that it should be supported.

I will point out a few concerns in terms of records that I hope the minister will monitor in his regulations and in the administration of this act. In September 1996, I wrote to the minister about this bill. I told him about a constituent of mine who came to my office because of what they call memory retrieval technique. It has been used by some psychiatrists and therapists to try to get to old memories that have been buried deep in the subconscious and to try to bring them up to see if they need to be examined in the light of current facts.

They brought up the case of a child of theirs who claimed that 30 or 40 years previously had been sexually assaulted. They had no memory of it but a therapist had convinced them that it must have happened and therefore they needed to bring charges against the father in this case.

The Canadian Psychiatric Association has cautioned that this can be, in the production of records, a real problem in a criminal case. There is quite a bit of documentation suggesting that these kinds of memories are often a fabrication of a so-called victim. There is no defence for the accused.

Sometimes there will be no other witnesses. There is 30 or 40 years of silence between the supposed infraction and the current date of someone suddenly remembering something. It is no wonder that some of these people, like the father sitting in my office, who ask, "what is my recourse? How can I defend myself when an accusation is made right out of the blue?" I have asked the minister to respond to these concerns as it applies to Bill C-46 and to so-called retrieved memories.

The sixth recommendation of the Canadian Psychiatric Association suggests that the reports of recovered memories which incriminate others should be handled with particular care. I have yet to have a response from the minister on exactly how he is going to handle that part of the records "with particular care". I hope that he will respond before this bill becomes law. Six or eight months have gone by and he has not responded to this.

I am told that he has a nine month waiting list with respect to answering his letters. Now we are being asked to vote on these bills some six or eight months after I have asked some pretty important questions and I have as yet to see the answers. I hope he is going to respond quickly.

The next thing involves records of sexual predators. I have brought forward a private member's bill in response to some 33,000 names on a petition that I have been presenting over the last couple of months. It is with regard to the preservation of records of those who have committed sexual crimes.

Right now those records go into what is called CPIC and become part of an accessible file for day care workers or people working with children who might want to have access to it to see if the person applying for a job has a criminal record.

The problem in the private member's bill I brought forward is that those people who are pardoned from their sexual crimes have their records removed from the CPIC computer record system. I

would ask the minister if that is wise. I suggest that someone who has committed a sexual crime, especially against children, even if later pardoned, should have a record of their crime somewhere in the system.

The record does not necessarily have to be common knowledge but surely there must be some way of maintaining it so that if something comes up later and that person is again accused of a crime, there is some way of making sure that person's record is not just wiped clean. There is a price to pay when you are convicted of a crime and part of that conviction I believe should be that your record stays in the computer and is there for concerned parties to access.

I mentioned earlier that sexual crimes are the most odious of crimes because they treat someone as less than human. They treat them as an object and as a way of degrading someone. They are often hurtful physically. The emotional damage affects not only the victim but also the victim's families and co-workers. As was the case in my town of Abbotsford, when the so-called Abbotsford killer was on the prowl and had assaulted and killed one woman and left another for dead, the entire town was affected by it. It got so bad that no one would attend sporting events for fear of their lives. Even high school students were told not to go out in public unless they were in large groups and stuck together. It can terrorize an entire town.

Although this bill when it comes to sexual records will be relatively easy to support, there is much left to be done by the government when it comes to the protection and enhancement of victims' rights.

The government for some reason seems to be reluctant to deal harshly with the most hideous of crimes. I do not know why but it does not elevate it to the level it should be elevated to which is to treat the perpetrators of these crimes like the animals they are. If they need to be locked up for some time then we have to lock them up. Often they cannot be treated. They are habitual criminals. They are sometimes only caught after they have assaulted many victims and many families are ruined. In my opinion, the government does not seem to take that seriously enough.

I will bring this case forward again because it happened in my area. A fellow by the name of Darren Ursel confined a lady from my area in a car and sexually assaulted her for 90 minutes using the handle of a racquetball racket. He terrorized this woman for 90 minutes. One can only imagine the terror, the physical damage and the awfulness of that crime.

They caught Darren Ursel and at his trial the judge, Judge Harry Boyle, said that because Mr. Ursel did not have a criminal record and that he showed apparent remorse for what he had done that a conditional sentence would be passed and he would not have to serve time. He was back on the streets that very same day.

What am I supposed to tell this lady after the hideousness of that crime when it is reported in the paper that the judge felt that Ursel seemed to be sorry and if someone is sorry it is good enough and they can go back on the street again the very same day? What am I supposed to tell this woman who comes to see me or when people who know her come to see me?

I will tell the House what is happening. In my area there is another woman I know who has started a petition drive to remove that judge from the bench. She is so outraged, as are the people in Abbotsford and Chilliwack, that they believe that judge does not deserve to sit on the bench any more. How can anyone say that if the guy feels sorry that it is okay and that is the end of the issue? What does it take to get time in jail for one of these perverts?

As I mentioned, this is the worst of crimes. That person may never recover psychologically. Her family may be destroyed. Who knows what the effect will be on loved ones and relatives around her? An entire community again puts another lock on the door and bars on the window because that person gets out on the street the next day. What does it take to have something treated as a serious crime in this country? What could be worse than that? Short of killing somebody, what can be worse than that? I do not know what the government expects. What does the government want before it starts to treat it as a serious crime?

That is where I have trouble. The bill is a small thing. It is easy to support. Let us get it over with and we will do it. But when we have cases like this, where we see many lives being ruined, I see no support from the minister. As a matter of fact his bill allowed for the conditional release sentence to be issued for this guy. I see no compassion in that. I see no empathy for the victim. In fact I am outraged that the judge said: "If you feel sorry, no time in jail".

A colleague from Prince George-Prince River told me of a case where someone was released from jail for a particular crime, drove 400 miles through the night, got back to where his estranged wife was in a house somewhere, broke down the door, sexually assaulted her and left her for dead on the kitchen floor. The judge decided that it would be too disruptive on the family to put that guy in jail because he would not be able to make his alimony payments. The judge turned him loose.

What kind of a message does that send? To me, it sends a message that a sexual crime is not all that serious. What the heck, if the person does not have a previous record the first one is free. The first one does not count. If you get caught after that you had better be careful because you have a record. But the first one does not really count. Even if a person uses a racquetball handle on the victim it does not matter. That is okay. That is the message that is being sent.

It says that as a victim your life is destroyed likely. You will probably go through life needing counselling help, but that is okay because you are just a victim and the first one does not matter, so you just have to roll with it and get on with life. That is a sick attitude. It is a sick response to a victim who has been trivialized by the current justice system.

Most victims of sexual crimes are female, but not all. As we see on the news all too often, many young boys are also assaulted. It sends a message to people who are often not physically strong enough to fight back. I will put it that way. I think that is a safe thing to say. They cannot outrun, they cannot out wrestle, they cannot get away from the perpetrators of these crimes. Often they are people who abuse a position of authority in order to force somebody to do something sexually that they do not want to do.

What does it say to people the way the current law is? It says sexual assaults are not that serious. You just have to shrug your shoulders and accept them as something that happens in society and if you happen to be the poor unlucky person who is assaulted, these things happen. We just have to be understanding toward that guy because as long as he is sorry, we will turn him loose. That is not acceptable.

In my riding the difference between four years ago when I first started campaigning and today is that almost every door that I knock on has a sign saying: "This place is patrolled by a private security agency. This place is protected by an alarm system". The doors are always locked. People often will not come to the door any more. That is all in a short three or four years.

They can say on the Liberal side that crime is in decline. That is just not true. The rise in violent crime between 1960 and 1995 went from 200 incidences per 100,000 to 1,000 incidences. Worse than that is the many that do not get reported. People say: "If the guy who so badly abused that woman gets nothing, if he gets turned back on the street the next day, then if I go in with just a simple abuse case," if I can call it that, "what are they going to do? Laugh me out of the police station".

Serious crime needs to be treated seriously. Under the current set of laws it is not. It needs to be changed. The Reform Party will put the rights of the victim first. It is high time the Liberal government did so. Bill C-46 is easy to support, but let us get serious about serious crime.

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5:45 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I was interested in some of the comments of my colleague relative to the issue of where there has been a rise in crime and what is going on as far as statistics are concerned. I was also interested that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice interjected by saying that there had been a decrease.

There are realities and there are perceptions. Both reality and perception do not go along with what the parliamentary secretary said. There are figures and there are statistics that can be used in many ways. The Liberals have gone out of their way to use figures, statistics and other things that do not necessarily reflect reality to their own benefit.

This is the third time I have been on my feet today. Every time I rise I ask the same question. There are 50 constituencies in Canada where people seem to find access to their members. Their members in turn come to the House and reflect the realty of what is being said in coffee shops, on street corners and around kitchen tables. I cannot believe the same concerns we in the Reform Party hear-and we do listen to the people-are not the concerns being expressed to the Liberal members of the House. I find that absolutely inconceivable and absolutely unbelievable. Liberal members for whatever reason will not reflect those realities to the House. Clearly they have not reflected those realities to the justice minister.

The Reform Party has taken a look at the issue. The number four step in how we are to put Canada back together again is that we will make the streets safe again. That has to happen.

The bill takes a step in the correct direction. We commend the justice minister in the fact that he has taken a step in the correct direction. We condemn the justice minister that it is just one of many steps that should have been taken long before now.

The Reform Party would shift the balance. We would shift the balance. We would shift the balance of the rights of criminals to the rights of victims and law-abiding citizens.

We do not understand why the justice minister, who has the ability to make the changes that are essential to make our streets safe, will simply not do that. We do not understand why he is taking mincy steps forward.

The Liberals certainly seem to be well established in the track of calling an unnecessary election. I believe the Prime Minister will be announcing it on April 26 for the vote on June 2. We do not understand and most Canadians do not understand why the Liberals would do that. They have a majority. They have the mandate to govern. We do not understand why they will be going to the people on June 2.

Because we are undoubtedly going into an election the member for Fraser Valley East will be up against some poor piece of cannon fodder who will run for the Liberals in his constituency. Does he have any idea what in the world that candidate will be able to say to defend how it is the justice minister took it to this point? The minister has had 3.5 years to get his act together and he has botched and taken mincy steps all the way along.

Does the member have any idea how in the world a Liberal candidate would possibly try to defend the justice minister?

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, in some ways I am a little nervous of my Liberal opponent. He is the local mayor of Chilliwack. In one sense he may be appealing to the prison vote. Prisoners can vote. Perhaps he will pick up a couple of thousand votes there.

I do not think so because of what the mayor of Chilliwack said as soon as he became a candidate. He is now the official candidate for the Liberal Party. Mr. Speaker, you will want to listen because he will be one your co-runners in the upcoming election. He said that section 745 must be eliminated and that he would work hard to eliminate it as a Liberal member of Parliament. He said that Clifford Olson should never see the light of day and all pedophiles should be hung by the neck until dead.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

You are kidding.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

No, no. This is a Liberal.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

He really said that.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

He said that. That is interesting. All pedophiles should be hung at the end of a rope until dead and not just Clifford Olson. They should be round up. It would clean out the prisons. Is that not interesting?

It is a new Liberal philosophy. I heard of running on the left and then ruling from the right, but this guy is not satisfied by just hanging Clifford Olson, which many people might agree with. He said we should round up the pedophiles, drop them through the old six-foot drop and see how many come out the other end.

I asked him whether he knew what happens when people get to Ottawa with such tremendous ideas. People get to mention them once. A little birdie comes along and says that they have a seat for them. It is called the back corner next to the wall, just one step from nowhereville. That is what happens to a Liberal who comes up with that kind of nonsense.

It is interesting. It is not enough that he wants to do the old long necktie stroke on these guys. The next thing that happened was in an adjoining riding, what used to be Fraser Valley West. The hon. member for Fraser Valley West will be running against a fellow by the name of Peter Warkentin who is a good Liberal. He said that they would work to abolish section 745 because that is what the people want.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay East, BC

You are kidding.

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5:50 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

No, no. Now we are starting a little crescendo here. It is a wonderful thing. They can say anything they want when they are running because they know darn well that none of it will come to pass with this current minister. The current minister laughs at people who ask to abolish section 745.

Mr. Gary Rosenfeldt phoned me in my office the last week we were here and asked us to keep the pressure on the minister. He is so out of touch with reality that he thinks he is right. He tells the victims of Clifford Olson that it is too bad, that Olson will taunt them, that is what they have to put up with and that is just the way it is. He tries to blame the Reform Party and all that stuff.

The worm is turning. In their own ranks now, at least two in B.C, Liberals have had an Epiphany, a change on the road to Damascus. They come forward now advocating the elimination of section 745. At least one of them said not just hang all the beggars but hang all the pedophiles.

The local school trustee got a hold of me and said that he was a parole officer with 60 pedophiles whom he monitors and works with in the community. He asked whether the local mayor would round them all up and have a public hanging. What is it with these Liberals?

I will say what it is. The Liberals will say anything they think they need to say to get elected. When the get on that side of the House they will do whatever they darn well please. Liberals have no interest in the rights of the victims. Liberals have no interest in true justice. Liberals say that sexual offences are one free one for the road. Liberals will do that.

That is why the people in my riding are writing letters to the editor saying: "It is about time. If you are going to run as a Liberal you had better act as a Liberal. That kind of nonsense will not get you to first base. You cannot try to win votes by threatening to hang everybody in town, knowing that the justice minister will tell you to be a good little boy, shut up and sit in the corner".

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5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is the House ready for the question?

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5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Accordingly the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

The House proceeded to the consideration of report stage of Bill C-27, an act to amend the Criminal Code (child prostitution, child

sex tourism, criminal harassment and female genital mutilation), as reported (with an amendment) from the committee.

Motion No. 1 will be debated and voted on. We will now proceed to debate on Motion No. 1.