House of Commons Hansard #152 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was code.

Topics

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion carried.

(Bill read the third time and passed.)

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Chan Liberal Richmond, BC

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was late coming into the House but I would like to be recorded as voting on the side of the government.

Canada Labour CodeGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Speaker

The record will show the words that you uttered today.

Pursuant to order made Tuesday, April 8, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded divisions on Motion No. 267.

The House resumed from April 8 consideration of the motion, the amendment and the amendment to the amendment.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

The Speaker

The question is on the amendment to the amendment.

(The House divided on the amendment to the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the amendment to the amendment defeated.

The next question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the amendment carried.

The next question is on the main motion as amended. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

On division.

Standing Orders Of The HousePrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

Carried on division.

It being 6.10 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Member's Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Criminal CodePrivate Member'S Business

6:05 p.m.

Reform

Paul Forseth Reform New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

moved that Bill C-247, an act to amend the Criminal Code (trespass) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is definitely a privilege to begin the debate on my private member's Bill C-247 dealing with amending the Criminal Code with respect to trespassing. This is a time when the average Canadian gets to speak, for my measure comes from them.

In my three and a half years as a member of Parliament I have had only two bills drawn for debate. Unfortunately this is the way the old system works. I think every member will agree with me that it is difficult to bring a concern from the riding and change a statute based on that concern.

As the member for New Westminster-Burnaby, I have done much to bring concerns forward in order to make a difference in our community. After all, this is a large part of the job. Canadians count on each and every one of us to be fully accountable to their concerns. There is no question that Reform has been the most significant party that truly puts the constituent first. And while Reformers may be able to pat themselves on the back for this achievement, it is also sad to see in contrast how many Liberal and NDP MPs have treated their constituents.

In British Columbia the issue which seems to be on everyone's mind is criminal justice. British Columbians are completely fed up with the many loopholes in our statutes and what they provide.

Last month thousands protested in Vancouver when Clifford Olson issued a notice that he would seek parole through a section 745 hearing, probably one of the most significant loopholes in the Criminal Code. The Minister of Justice and local Vancouver Liberal MPs sloughed it off by saying "do not worry, Olson will not get paroled".

It is impossible for these bleeding heart Liberals to say he will not get out on parole because statistics clearly show that the accused usually has an excellent chance of being released early. The issue here is the symbolism of that offender. The symbolism that this offender can mock a community through our justice system is unacceptable.

Reformers are not going to give up the fight on section 745 and we are definitely not going to give up the fight in trying to cure the loophole disease, as I call it, that is plaguing the way justice is administered in this country.

I mentioned at the outset that I have had two private member's bills drawn in this Parliament. The other bill was Bill C-323 which dealt with amending the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act.

Approximately two years ago a constituent approached me with a concern that a loophole in the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act was enabling violent offenders to be released from their commitment to pay civil court judgments. It was a loophole that was causing innocent victims unnecessary suffering.

Last year I saw an article in the Vancouver Province about a woman who was awarded $200,000 in damages for sexual abuse by her stepfather. Her stepfather was ordered after a civil court trial to make payments of $500 a month. According to the article, he made one full payment of $500, four payments of $100 and then filed for bankruptcy. He got off. It was easy. That was the end of it.

It was clear from my research and from speaking with constituents that a simple amendment to the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act would eliminate the possibility for a person to use personal bankruptcy to escape from any owed damages awarded in civil court.

If we look at the way the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act reads, a bankrupt person cannot be relieved of paying, for example, any traffic fines, alimony or child maintenance payments, yet they can be relieved of paying damages for something like sexual assault, a great inconsistency. I found it amazing that no government had ever changed such a very simple clause.

After I introduced Bill C-323, the Minister of Industry introduced Bill C-5 which amended the section that my bill did. However, their amendment was fairly weak in content. What ensued were negotiations to have my private member's bill included in Bill C-5, which is now close to receiving royal assent.

The exercise proved not only that an individual MP can have a direct influence on how legislation is drafted, but it proved that MPs should be open to all concerns and suggestions brought forward to them by their constituents. In this rare instance the government listened and I also found a sympathetic minister.

That brings me to the discussion surrounding Bill C-247, what we are debating today. In coming up with my bankruptcy and insolvency bill one constituent contacted me to get me going down the road of investigation.

Now on the issue of trespassing I have received numerous complaints from police officers, regular patrons of shopping malls and public library workers. The complaint was the sheer frustration that persons are trespassing on property, causing a public disturbance and destroying a sense of community and livability for children and yet are unable to be removed for any significant amount of time.

We all know malls are popular places for youth to hang out. If members have teenage sons or daughters as I do, they will know that one of their favourite congregation points is the mall, usually the food court. Perhaps it is because there is food around or perhaps it is because there are tables to lounge on and places to sit.

The security personnel in the malls consistently have a difficult time in maintaining civility and the chief reason is that they have little if any authoritative jurisdiction. If the security staff of a mall is forced to remove a problem person, that individual can simply re-enter the mall within minutes and start the whole scenario all over again.

There is no place in the Criminal Code that states that the trespasser must stay off the property for any amount of time. The only way the person can be charged is by resisting removal from the property. Therefore, if the person never resists, the act could continue over and over, which in some cases it does as a specific plan.

Federal government officials too often forget that teenagers are extremely street smart. I served on the House Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs when we dealt with the Young Offenders Act. A witness wanted me to believe that most young offenders have no idea of the penalties they will receive if they commit a certain crime. At the time Reformers were calling for the YOA to be strengthened in order to deter young offenders from committing crime. Offenders seem all too aware of how soft the system is.

Before I became a member of Parliament I served as a court officer in the attorney general's ministry in British Columbia. I spent a great amount of time dealing on a one to one basis with young offenders. After a while one understands very clearly what they are thinking. Many offenders know exactly what they are doing when they calculate committing an offence. Many know exactly how to beat the system. If there is a loophole in the system a teenager will find it, and the word quickly travels the streets.

For the past three and a half years, Reformers have been attempting to amend the justice system by closing these loopholes one loophole at a time. I recently went on the Internet to see what I could find if I typed in the words "trespassing in Canada". Several items came up and most were of no use. One site did appear in the search, a CBC site for the television show "Street Cents," a show geared toward teenagers interested in consumer-based issues. The title of the site was "How does the law affect you in common, legal

situations, if arrested, kicked out of a mall, asked for ID or if someone is threatening to search a locker".

Whoever was doing the research for this question interviewed the Public Legal Education Society of Nova Scotia, the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission and a Halifax lawyer. This is what was said at this site about trespassing in a mall or hangin' at the mall: "Provincial laws like the Protection of Property Act give mall owners and store owners the power to post signs like no loitering or only two persons at a time allowed in the store. The signs are a restriction on people's freedom of movement as defined by the charter of rights, but so far the charter's rules only apply to the federal government and federal institutions like the CBC.

"The Protection of Property Act gives property owners the power to control how their property may be used so long as they publicly post these conditions. No smoking rules are an example of how this power may be used.

"Provincial health and safety laws are responsible for a bunch of other sign restrictions like no bare feet, no pets you often see in malls. If you break any of these rules posted on signs it means mall security can simply usher you out of the mall and they don't need to give a reason. You're ushered and you're toast. It's a powerful statute.

"Some malls do not post signs forbidding loitering so hangin' out indefinitely may be just fine where you live, it depends. However, most provincial protection property laws, the dreaded P of P, do empower mall security to move on or forcibly remove persons who are in a mall and causing a disturbance. In the province of Nova Scotia the guard can even ban you from the mall or store from which you've been hurled for up to six months. It has happened. If you break the ban police can be called and you can be charged with trespassing. Heavy.

"In the case of young people swearing or physical horseplay, wrestling or hackie sac might be interpreted by some as causing a disturbance. There is a range of behaviour by individuals malls will tolerate. When it is groups of teens the range seems to narrow down. Some malls might even argue a large group of exuberant young people cause a disturbance to other customers or merchants just by their very presence. This is an area of common misunderstanding".

Every province seems to have a different way of dealing with trespassers. In British Columbia the trespassing laws are weak. Something has to be done with this most serious issue. With the provinces doing very little to remedy this situation, something should be done to amend the Criminal Code to provide a reasonable national standard of peace and order.

The amendments I have made in Bill C-247 would strengthen section 41 of the Criminal Code. Subsection 41(1) states:

Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house or real property, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using force to prevent any person from trespassing on the dwelling-house or real property, or to remove a trespasser therefrom, if he uses no more force than is necessary.

That is the law the way it is now.

I am proposing an amendment to section 41 of the Criminal Code, making it a mere summary conviction for a person who has already been lawfully removed from real property or a dwelling house not to be able to lawfully return for 24 hours. The reason for the 24 hours is to provide adequate time for the person to cool off. It is amazing how attitudes change in 24 hours.

Perhaps I could put my proposed legislation into a hypothetical situation. A teenager is removed from a shopping mall for offensive, rude, loud conduct. The teenager must then stay out of that shopping mall for a total of 24 hours. If that teenager decides to re-enter the mall within that 24 hours, he or she can be charged with trespassing on entrance and may be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. They would be issued a ticket, a summons to appear in court.

Additionally, as the section in the Criminal Code deals with a dwelling house, my amendment also deals with it. As a family court counsellor I was often made aware of domestic situations wherein disrupting behaviour which disturbed the peace for children in the household was a problematic situation.

For example, sometimes police are called to a residence to assist in the removal of a drunk, unwanted, former boyfriend of a young mother. Perhaps in this situation the matter is dealt with successfully by the officer on the scene, assisting in the removal of the person from the dwelling house. Subsequently, at the curb, the policeman may decide to release the individual, being that the temporary co-operation of the person appeared to have solved the situation. However, the offender may return some time later after having consumed more alcohol and start the process all over again.

In this case the perpetrator could temporarily co-operate in view of the officer. However, an hour later he might reappear at the door and start conversations or hassle again and again.

Legally the second or third appearance on the property is a separate event which would have to be dealt with by an attending officer as a legal, separate incident on a new complaint being made. My bill would solve that special set of circumstances and perhaps bring much peace into estranged domestic situations where restraining orders or no contact orders are not available or not workable.

General community order would more likely be provided if the perpetrator knew that he or she could be charged summarily if he or she reappeared on the property with 24 hours of being lawfully removed. The deterrent effect would be great and would likely

result in more non-justice system solutions with voluntary co-operation.

My amendment makes common sense, but of course I do not expect to get much help on that score from the House when the committee did not make my bill votable. I spoke yesterday, albeit briefly, on the general reputation of the government on the administration of justice. It just does not represent mainstream Canadian values on protecting the public.

I know that in this Parliament my bill will not see the light of day past this one hour. However, I hope that my Criminal Code amendment will be drawn to the attention of government lawyers in the Department of Justice whose jobs it is to make the criminal justice system more loophole free. I have personally drawn my private member's bill to the attention of the justice minister and so far I have had no response.

The bill is straightforward common sense. Its practical consequence is prevention at the street level, rather than enlarging the net. I hope this reasonable measure will find support in the House.

With the unanimous consent of the House, I would now like to move a motion. I move:

That my private member's bill be made a votable item.

Will the House accept my motion?

Criminal CodePrivate Member'S Business

6:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to propose the motion?