Debates of Oct. 19th, 1998

Apec Inquiry

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is wandering around in circles. Surely it is self-evident that it is not fair play when we have an inquiry and one side has at least six high priced lawyers and all of the resources of the Government of Canada behind it and the other side has nothing.

Will the Prime Minister stand up in this House and say that he thinks that is a fair deal?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, again I want to repeat that there is no complaint against the students. They are not accused of anything. They are the ones complaining against the activities of the police and against the activities of the government. The students have made their complaints.

There is a law of parliament that was passed to permit every complainant to be heard, but complainants in front of any corps of police in Canada do not ask for lawyers. Complaints are made and the commission looks into the validity of the complaints on behalf of the people of Canada.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I spent the last two weeks at the APEC hearing in Vancouver and I can tell the Prime Minister that there is absolutely no sense of balance. I saw the first student have his testimony completely twisted and warped by a process that only a veteran crown prosecutor can do.

How in the world can the Prime Minister say it is fair that he is siccing high priced lawyers on these students?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, commission counsel said “The commission can and will take extra measures to ensure that the protesters who cannot afford lawyers are dealt with fairly. We are there to make sure they are treated fairly and that is what we will do”.

There is no complaint against the students. They are the ones complaining against the police. Of course the police want to defend themselves because they are the ones being accused. No one is accusing the students of anything.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister should spend one day at the inquiry to discover exactly how unbalanced this process is. The difficulty is not only will the students not get a fair hearing, but the RCMP themselves will be seen as taking part in a tainted and slanted process.

I ask again: Will the Prime Minister fund the students as they should be funded? Would he appear at the inquiry without proper legal counsel himself?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I just explained the process. There is a law of parliament that was created to help any citizen in Canada who has a complaint against the police to complain without having to hire a lawyer. That is why we established that commission. When somebody complains about the activities of the police, it is normal for the police being accused to defend themselves, but there is absolutely no accusation against any student.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, politically speaking, the Solicitor General is being kept on life support by the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, that still does not prevent him from making bad decisions.

Is the Solicitor General not refusing to pay the legal fees of the students who filed a complaint in the “Peppergate” affair because he is afraid of losing control over the investigation and because he is afraid the conclusions reached by the commission of inquiry will be totally different from what he anticipated three weeks ago?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely not. In fact the Public Complaints Commission has distinguished itself for many years in its capacity to do justice, to be fair to complainants and so on. That is exactly what it is doing in this case.

A request was made. I considered it and decided against providing funding.

There are many tribunals of this kind which operate throughout government. It is very important that Canadians have access to an informal process to lay these kinds of complaints and I have every confidence in the Public Complaints Commission.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on one side, there is the government and the RCMP, the accused, with a dozen lawyers paid for by the taxpayer. On the other side, there are the students, who filed the complaint, who were roughed up, arrested and deprived of their rights and who cannot afford a single lawyer.

Does the Prime Minister not think the government's behaviour in this matter is not verging on the indecent and immoral?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat, there is no charge against the students. No one is accusing the students of anything. No charge has been laid in court against the students as a result of the demonstration.

They were the ones who filed a complaint against the police, and the law provides for a commission to protect all the witnesses.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this government is trying not only to control and manipulate the ongoing investigation into the events at the APEC conference but also, and this is serious, to control and manipulate its coverage by the media. That is why a complaint was filed with the ombudsman at the CBC and the journalist relocated.

Does the Prime Minister realize that, by engaging in behaviour that is totally unacceptable from a government, he is bringing discredit upon all political institutions?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, an ombudsman has been appointed, and former CBC chairman Patrick Watson, who is also a journalist, stated, and I quote:

“I am not troubled by this because the ombudsman is independent and will try to determine the facts. This complaint procedure is far better than trying an end run to put pressure on a journalist”. I am quoting Patrick Watson. We did not call the president of the CBC. He wrote to the ombudsman, who can take a complaint from this gentleman anytime he has a problem.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the House no longer has confidence in the Solicitor General, the RCMP no longer has confidence in him and neither does the public.

Does the Prime Minister not realize that, by adamantly defending his Solicitor General, he is actually fuelling public cynicism about politicians in general?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, a commission has been established by the Parliament of Canada to investigate public complaints against the police.

Complaints were filed, as they regularly are, and the same procedure is followed regardless of who files a complaint against the RCMP. That is how things are done.

As regards the CBC, its former chairman said that the thing to do was to go to the ombudsman. I know the Bloc seldom has reason to complain about the CBC.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister. The RCMP describe pepper spray as stronger than tear gas or mace, an inflammatory agent causing severe burning, contraction of the eyes, bronchial spasms, gasping for breath, gagging and nausea.

This weekend I was asked by the mother of one of the UBC students pepper sprayed at APEC why the PM keeps joking about her daughter's pain. Will he apologize to her and all of the students for his shameful and arrogant insensitivity? How does the Prime Minister answer that mother's question? Will he apologize.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the police are accountable to the commission for the techniques they use. I do not know whether or not there are consequences. All sorts of techniques were used in the past. Apparently, this was a new one I did not even know about. The member suggests that an individual may have been hurt. If she is still in pain, I apologize.

Instead of using baseball bats or other weapons, the police are now trying to use more civilized methods and that is why they also had towels to help out.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the question was not about RCMP techniques, it was about the Prime Minister's jokes.

I will repeat the question to the Prime Minister. This weekend I was asked by the mother of one of the UBC students who was pepper sprayed at APEC why the Prime Minister keeps joking about her daughter's pain. Will he apologize to her and to all of the students for his shameful and arrogant insensitivity?

Will the Prime Minister now stand in his place, do the right thing and apologize for those disgusting jokes?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am ready to apologize if some damage has been caused. I have no problem with that.

The police technique to maintain order is not a domain that I know much about. If they used le gaz lacrymogène and other things that they decided to use—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

If the Prime Minister wants to continue his answer, he has time.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to categorically say that if this lady is suffering because of the activities of the police, I apologize. That is it. What more does he want? But if the hon. member, rather than trying to score political points, would let the commission do its work, the people of Canada would know all the truth.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the student complainants will have no one sitting at counsel table at the APEC inquiry.

Taxpayers are shelling out for at least three lawyers to protect the Prime Minister's interests at this inquiry, even though he is not a witness nor under subpoena.

Pepper sprayed students have been denied this request. The commission itself, the member for Vancouver Quadra and the Liberals' own B.C. wing have urged the Prime Minister to do the right thing.

Why does the Prime Minister get a blank cheque for his legal team at this inquiry while the students themselves get blanked?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the law provides that commission counsel is there to represent the interests of the complainants. They do that for any Canadian who has a complaint against the RCMP.

If a witness feels they need help with their testimony, counsel for the commission has said that he is there to help, and he has the resources to make sure they have the help they need. That is the way the commission was established.

But in no such complaint in the past—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, by the Prime Minister's answer, he does not understand the process. This is like saying that you are going to rely on a judge at an inquiry.

The Prime Minister has legal representation because he knows he risks becoming the focus at this inquiry. In fact it was the government itself that requested this spring that lawyers be present at the inquiry.

Why is this same government refusing legal funding for the students? How can it justify footing the bill for the RCMP and the PMO while at the same time denying it for students? Where is the basic impartiality, equity and fairness in this process?