House of Commons Hansard #132 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.

Topics

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

There is not consent.

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is dropped from the order paper.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, seeing that the government has denied that this be made votable, I would like to make a second request for the unanimous consent of the House that Bill C-304 be referred to the subcommittee on human rights for further study.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent for the proposal that he has put forward?

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

An Act For The Recognition And Protection Of Human Rights And Fundamental FreedomsPrivate Members' Business

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

There is not consent.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

moved

That this House recognize the very harmful effect of federal cuts to the Canada Social Transfer (CST), particularly on health services in Canada, and that it support the consensus achieved by the provincial Premiers in Saskatoon on a project for social union, with the following main components:

—re-establishment of federal government contributions to health care services by means of the CST for social programs;

—support from a majority of provinces before new federal initiatives are introduced in areas of provincial jurisdiction;

—the right for a province to opt out, with full compensation, of a new or modified Canada-wide federal government social program in areas of provincial jurisdiction when the province offers a program or introduces an initiative in the same field;

—new co-operation mechanisms in order to avoid conflicts or settle them equitably.

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12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I want to let you know that our first 20 minutes will be split into two 10-minute sections. The remaining interventions will be 20 minutes long.

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12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, we are debating a Bloc Quebecois motion about two related issues. The motion first calls on the House to condemn the massive cuts made by the federal government in the health care sector, specifically since it took office three years ago.

Second, it calls on the House to recognize and support the consensus achieved by the provinces in Saskatoon this summer on the social union. I will have an opportunity later on to define what is meant by social union, and what this summer's consensus was about.

So, there are two goals. Why do we want to address what is going on in the health sector today? Let us be very objective. The figures speak volumes.

Let us go back to when the Liberal Party came to power in 1993-94—and my figures come from the review published by the Department of Finance—and look at cash transfers to the provinces, that is the money transferred by the federal government to the provinces and on which the health, post-secondary education and welfare systems essentially rely for their funding. Total spending under these three programs, now known as the Canada social transfer, was over $17 billion, $17.9 billion to be specific, when the government came to power. The following year, provincial transfer payments dropped to $16.9 billion.

What are they this year? This year, cash transfers will be $12.5 billion. This is a drop of close to $6 billion. The provinces are receiving a total of $6 billion less than they did four or five years ago when this government took office. That is a big chunk of money, and the effects are serious.

Canada's entire health care system is experiencing great difficulty. It has been weakened, and provincial governments have had to push ahead much more quickly with necessary reforms, with the result that they are now facing problems in the management of the health system.

But there is an underlying cause. The present government made the decision to slash provincial transfer payments, knowing full well that a very large portion of these payments was used to fund health care. For Quebec alone, this means an annual shortage of several hundreds of millions of dollars that were meant to be distributed to each of the province's regions to fund our health care system.

There used to be someone here who would put it very well. I am referring to the former leader of the Progressive Conservative Party. During the last federal election campaign, he kept reminding people wherever he went that the federal government was primarily responsible for the cuts in the health care sector. That gentleman changed his tune when he moved from the federal to the provincial scene. People will pass judgment on him when the time comes, but the fact remains that he did make those comments at the time.

As far as I know, these views are shared by all the political parties, which are condemning the devastating impact of these cuts on our health care system. The provinces have decided to form a united front against the federal government. Now that this government has achieved its goal of a zero deficit and is enjoying a surplus, it is very tempted to put money back into certain areas deemed to be priorities by the public. Unfortunately, it wants to do it alone, by implementing its own initiatives, merely to increase its political visibility.

It must be realized that the Canada social transfer, through which transfer payments are made, was somewhat annoying to the federal government, because there was no visibility associated with the money being transferred.

What matters to the public is not visibility, but the program's effectiveness which, simply put, means receiving the services for which they are paying. The people who pay taxes to Ottawa want that money to be returned to them. Of course, one may wonder about the need to send money to Ottawa, only to get it back afterwards. It would be better to send it directly to the Quebec government and to get it directly.

We fully realize that the Canadian federal system likes a big, huge bureaucracy. There is a very sizeable health department in Ottawa, in an area of jurisdiction that normally belongs to the provinces. This is why the provinces decided on an agreement in Saskatoon.

What is there is this agreement on social union? Essentially, there are four components The first one, which is in our motion, is as follows: now that the federal government has achieved its zero deficit objective, let it set as its primary priority the re-injection of funds into the health system via the Canada social transfer, which is already in place, using the transfer payment mechanism that is already in place.

There is no need to launch initiatives, new programs, left and right. What we are saying is that the priority is to service what is already in place, a system with which everyone is familiar, and that the provinces could promptly inject this money into the system in order to enhance the reforms they have put in place, and solidify the health system. All the provinces are calling for this. There is unanimous consent.

The second point is telling the federal government: before launching any new initiatives left and right, before launching any new initiatives relating to areas of provincial jurisdiction, make sure there is support from a majority of provinces. The provinces are very polite; they could have told you to stay within your areas of jurisdiction. But they are telling you, if you want to get involved in initiatives that fall under provincial jurisdiction, to ensure a minimum of co-ordination and to have the support of a majority of provinces.

The third point, linked to the second, is that if the provinces want to opt out—that is, to administer these programs themselves, because they already have all the infrastructures in place, because a similar program already exists, because it already addresses these priorities, and all they need to do is inject a bit more money into it—they are saying: give us the right to opt out with full financial compensation, provided we put the money into the same already defined areas.

The last point: the provinces had the great wisdom to add a new component, which is rather a thorn in the side of the federal government, calling for new co-operation mechanisms in order to avoid conflicts, and particularly to settle disputes, so that Ottawa will not be the sole judge of whether or not priority is being given to spending the money in the defined areas.

Obviously, Ottawa will always have its own interpretation of all this. Ottawa will say that the provinces fail to meet the criteria for exercising their right to opt out. A mechanism should therefore be put in place to settle such disputes, and to do so quickly and more objectively than on the sole basis of the federal government's assessment.

There seems to be a great deal of wisdom in this approach that is supported by all the provinces. They are asking the federal government to show some good faith. However, this request was initially given a very cold welcome in Ottawa, starting with the Prime Minister, who kindly advised his provincial colleagues that, if they wanted to become the Prime Minister of Canada and run the country, all they had to do was to get themselves elected Prime Minister of Canada.

In his mind, he is in charge and makes decisions, and if they are not happy, they should run against him in an election. One was actually considering doing just that, so he got rid of him by sending him to Quebec City. Now, he is calling on the rest of them to do the exact opposite he urged the leader of the Conservative Party. That is quite odd. Eventually, his old Liberal guard in this place could even stop supporting him. We shall see.

Second, the Prime minister took a strong stand in denying this request, making people wonder how real his support is for flexible federalism, for a system capable of adapting to the new realities.

What the provinces are asking is that the health system in Canada, in Quebec and all the Canadian provinces, be managed more efficiently, that more money be poured into the system and that each province be allowed to further its reforms.

Can anyone here object to that? One has to wonder about the real intentions of the people across the way. I am convinced however that, today, all parties—at least on this side of the House—will support the key principles.

There may be a few questions here and there on certain points, and the provinces will have the opportunity to explain their position in the process. But you will see that this approach, reinvesting money in our health system and respecting the provinces in what they do—and they do it pretty well with the resources available to them—will find some level of support.

Hopefully a number of people on the government side will wake up and put pressure on the Prime Minister. Hopefully some of them will be a little more modern in their approach to the Canadian system and will adapt to this reality.

This motion is not a votable item, but I hope many members rise in this House today to express their support for the premiers' initiatives and to say that it is high time the federal government reinvested money in the health system, which needs it badly, and recognized the damage it has caused over the last few years. The drastic cuts that were made in the health system were a mistake and they adversely affected the lives of many people both in Quebec and in Canada.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Wentworth—Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague opposite for his remarks which I listened to with great attention.

The issue we are debating is very important to us all. If we believe that all Canadians from sea to sea, and Quebeckers, deserve the same minimum standards of health care, do we not need to have the federal government set some kind of standards or parameters and enforce them in the provinces when it gives money under the health and social transfers? How can we do it without the federal government demanding something of the provinces?

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12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, it must be pointed out that the Canada Health Act exists with its fundamental principles. Nowhere in the agreement do the provinces question that. We could ask ourselves whether the Canada Health Act is properly worded, but this is not the purpose of the debate we are having today.

Nobody has indicated a willingness to go against these fundamental objectives. The premiers, in the first sentence of the press release issued following their meeting in Saskatoon on August 7, confirmed their resolve to maintain and improve the universal health care system for all Canadians. That was the first sentence of the premiers' press release. It seems to me that there should be something in there to satisfy the member.

This being said, it is one thing for the Liberals to rise in this House and say they want to protect the fundamental principles of the Canada Health Act. However, this borders on hypocrisy if the provinces are not provided with the means to meet the criteria.

What good does it do if, in theory, you have some strong legislation, but, in practice, you do not provide the means to enforce it. I have absolutely no doubt that all of the opposition parties will agree on this issue and that several government members will share that vision or, at least, will hopefully realize that, while they talk about setting standards, they do not provide the money needed to meet those standards.

The best people to watch over the quality of our health care system are not the hon. members of the Liberal Party, but the citizens who, along with the various provinces, will put pressure on the government and their local representatives who are involved in the health care system. The best watchdogs for our health care system will always be the people and not some opportunistic politicians who do not put their money where their mouth is.

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12:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

André Harvey Progressive Conservative Chicoutimi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the good work my hon. colleague is doing on these issues.

On the subject of the framework agreement on social issues and its enforcement, I wonder if he could tell me whether or not, in his opinion, social realities in health, education and other areas are closely linked to economic development, especially since harmonious and efficient economic development makes social support possible.

Would he not consider an economic and social framework agreement an interesting proposal on the part of the government? This might—and I am sure this will please his colleague, the champion of social issues—result in liberalizing interprovincial trade once and for all and in dramatically improving this country's economic performance, because it all starts with us.

As strange as it may sound, free trade agreements are being signed just about everywhere except between Canadian provinces. So, I think this could not only improve our social performance but also address a major issue.

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12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for pointing out in his preamble that what happened affected not only health care but also education.

I could have made similar remarks about the education system, where the government had the nerve to put forward an initiative like the millennium scholarships, meddling in a provincial jurisdiction, when Quebec's priorities might have been slightly different from the federal government's, had the same amount been available. But that is another debate.

I thank him anyway for pointing out that what is true for health is also true for education and, I might add, for social assistance.

As for an eventual framework agreement on economic development, no one can be against that. I come from a border riding. Across the lake from us is Ontario. For many of our businesses in Quebec, it is easier to trade with the United States than with a Canadian province. Standards and regulations governing transportation for instance are often extremely complex. This creates somewhat artificial trade barriers, which nevertheless make some aspects of our system archaic.

The objective is good, but it is very difficult to reach an agreement on an issue identified by all Canadians as a priority, namely health care. This government is not very responsive. Imagine what it would be like with interprovincial trade. In this respect, I have greater confidence in the provinces and their ability to come to an agreement among themselves than in the federal government.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address the motion introduced by the hon. member for Témiscamingue.

My comments will deal primarily with the first part of the motion, which reads:

That this House recognize the very harmful effect of federal cuts to the Canada Social Transfer (CST), particularly on health services in Canada—

Everyone knows the strategy applied by the Liberals to eliminate the deficit. Year after year, the Minister of Finance deliberately underestimated his revenues and overestimated the costs of servicing the debt. This allowed him to slash social programs, while underestimating the deficit by several billions of dollars.

After that underhanded ploy, the federal government started a war of flags with the provinces, to promote its visibility while ignoring things such as the loss of efficiency, overlap, waste, not to mention its own constitution and the primary interests of the public.

Social transfers are at their lowest in 20 years. By the year 2003, cuts to cash transfers will total $42 billion. These cuts have a major impact on our current health care system, in terms of access to quality care.

Everyone now agrees that the massive cuts made by Ottawa to the health care system are the primary cause of the very difficult times that our system has been going through in recent years.

We are not the only ones saying that. I will quote some comments made by a few groups, including members of the former National Forum on Health, who are considered to be reasonable people by politicians.

Let me begin with the Canadian Medical Association. It says that the “cuts to federal transfers to the provinces for health and social programs have been the main obstacle to access to quality care for Canadians, and the reason for the most serious crisis of confidence regarding our health care system since the implementation of medicare, in the sixties”.

That comment by the Canadian Medical Association can be found in a release published in La Presse , on September 22, 1998. The association is asking that the amounts cut by the federal be restored and indexed to take into account the cost increase for new technologies and the fact that the population is aging.

The Canadian Healthcare Association issued a press release on August 5, 1998 that included the following statement:

[The federal government must] provide an immediate injection of cash and an appropriate growth mechanism for the Canada Health and Social Transfer to help meet the health needs of a growing and ageing population [—]

Even the members of the former National Health Forum felt the need to clarify their recommendations, and I quote:

We recommended that $12.5 billion be the floor, not the ceiling. [—] The increase in transfer payments to the provinces should strengthen the health care system and this money should be invested where it has the greatest chance of producing positive results.

In an article in the May 7, 1997 Journal de Québec , Jean Charest blamed the Prime Minister for the cuts that have affected the health care sector, and exonerated the Premier of Quebec. This is what he said:

Mr. Bouchard, just like Messrs Harris, Filmon and Klein, has been forced to contend with Ottawa's unilateral cuts.

He pointed out that, during the last three years, the Liberals cut health and education transfers to the provinces and territories by 35%. He said this represented at least $6 billion.

So Mr. Charest was right: all the provinces are feeling the effects of the federal government's cuts. Here are some of the headlines from the rest of Canada.

On April 13, 1998, the CBC reported the following: “Manitobans are travelling to Dakota to seek treatment in mobile hospitals working out of tractor trailers along the American border. To avoid the four-month wait in the public health care system, Manitobans are paying $1,300 US ($2,000 CAN) out of their own pockets for two MRIs, an amount that will not be reimbursed.”

On June 6, 1998, La Presse reported: “Military medical officers are lending a hand in Newfoundland's overburdened emergency departments. Thirty medical teams, made up of one physician and one assistant, will be providing services in rural and urban areas of the province starting in July. An agreement has apparently been signed between the province and the federal Department of Defence in order to compensate for the physician shortage. Doctors are complaining they are insufficiently paid”.

To quote a French CBC report from April 6, 1998: “The government of Prince Edward Island will be calling on the private sector for construction of a new hospital. According to the Minister of Health, the project will not be possible unless there is partial private-sector funding. She refused, however, to disclose the amounts required”.

Another French CBC report, from February 25, 1998: “Anaesthetist shortage in New Brunswick. The northeastern New Brunswick hospital corporation is seeking a second anaesthetist for the Acadian peninsula. Hiring this specialist will enable the Tracadie-Sheila hospital to provide day surgery, which the committee working to save the hospital has been demanding for two years”.

According to another French CBC report on February 27, 1998: “Edmonton hospitals have cancelled all non-emergency surgery. Emergency rooms and intensive care units are at full capacity in Edmonton, in large part because of the high number of cases of flu. Some patients from the northern part of the province have had to be taken to Calgary or to Saskatchewan”.

The present government is telling us the provinces do not know how to administer their health care. I want to tell it that the problem is not bad management by the provinces, but the huge cuts in the Canada social transfer. All provinces have had to review their health systems. Their reform was necessary.

What is more, they had to do so under difficult conditions, because the government cut the funds that would otherwise have supported these health care reforms.

This is going on all over Canada, and not only in Quebec as some would like to think. The health care system has been hit with massive cuts by this government. Attributing all these problems to bad decisions and poor management by the provinces is an act of bad faith.

In Quebec, the health care reform was needed because the preceding Liberal government had refused to do it for nine years. The reform should have taken place before the PQ government came to power, but the issue was a political hot potato. Mr. Bouchard had to implement measures to stabilize the system and he did so under unacceptable conditions, as I mentioned a few minutes ago.

I would like to go on and really describe the adverse effects on the provinces, and Quebec especially, of the cuts to the health system, but unfortunately I am short of time. I would like to say to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health that they should make amends and return to the provinces the money they so massively cut.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Wentworth—Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, in reply to an earlier question the member for Timiskaming—Cochrane said that health care should be in the hands of citizens.

This is part of the problem as health care in the provinces is not in the hands of citizens. It is administered mainly by hospitals which are either charities or incorporated non-profit organizations. As such, there is a very low level of transparency among hospital organizations and in the implementation of medical care across the country.

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12:35 p.m.

An hon. member

What is happening in Quebec?

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12:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Wentworth—Burlington, ON

I would like to put a question to the member. We are taking this debate very seriously. I realize the Conservatives cannot take a debate in the House seriously but I think Bloc Quebecois members will listen to me.

There is a problem. It is not the provinces that are mismanaging health. The problem is there are no good, on the ground rules and standards of transparencies at the hospital level. In my riding we know there are problems in the hospital where there are real inefficiencies and money being misspent and not enough money spent on services instead of administration.

Would the member for Drummond agree that some standard from the federal government would be useful before the money is spent to ensure that all the provinces manage health care through their hospitals equally across the country?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell my hon. colleague that every hospital has a board of directors. Regional Health and Social Service Boards have one too. Citizens can tell those boards and their administrators what their needs are. Citizens are very well represented.

The federal government is using every excuse in the book not to pay the provinces what is owed them. It is ironic that it managed to find millions of dollars to improve its visibility, fund its flag war, buy second-hand submarines and ram its millennium scholarship fund down our throats, while lacking political will. It has the arrogance to tell the provinces what to do and force them to come begging on bended knee. In the long run it is Canadians who are paying the price.

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12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

André Bachand Progressive Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, earlier the member for Drummond mentioned the Canadian Medical Association. I would like to know whether she agrees with the CMA's proposal to earmark part of the CST for health care since, as we know, it currently includes health care as well as education and social assistance.

Our friends in the Bloc Quebecois forgot to mention education, but I am sure it is an area close to their hearts.

Would the member agree to an initial transfer payment formula that would guarantee a certain amount for health services in order to avoid the kind of situation she mentioned? And if so, what percentage of the transfer would she like to see guaranteed for health care?

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. I think it is very difficult to determine what portion of the transfer payment should be earmarked for each province.

The federal government cut the cash portion of the Canada social transfer to Quebec. It is extremely difficult to calculate which portion goes to education, social assistance or health care. In my speech today, I wanted to urge the federal government to restore the $2 billion it savagely cut from the Canada social transfer to Quebec. That is what I wanted to ask the federal government.

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12:40 p.m.

Papineau—Saint-Denis Québec

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank you for recognizing me. I am very happy to rise today in the House to tell you why I do not agree with the assumptions made in the Bloc Quebecois' motion concerning the Canadian social union.

In fact, I am glad to have this opportunity today to explain to our fellow citizens throughout Canada how the motion before us is linked to previous federal-provincial-territorial discussions where there are winners and losers and where everyone tries to see where everybody else fits in.

With social union in Canada, there should only be winners, no losers, and these winners should not be one level of government or the other, but the people of Canada themselves. In this respect, social union in Canada has made huge progress which I would like to address.

But first, I want to talk a little bit about our public finances, since the hon. member for Témiscamingue stated earlier that Quebeckers would rather pay their taxes directly to the province of Quebec which could, in turn, use this tax revenue to support health services and education.

I want to point out to the hon. member for Témiscamingue that the taxes Ottawa sends back to the province of Quebec are much higher than the taxes collected in Quebec. For instance, with only 25% of the population in Canada, the province of Quebec gets 31% of the Canada social transfer. As far as equalization goes, Quebeckers, who account for 25% of Canada's population, receive 47% of the equalization budget, which means $4 billion each year for the Quebec government to spend as it pleases to make sure that Quebeckers have access to quality services.

If Mr. Bouchard's government, whom the members opposite are trying to defend, has chosen to make more cuts in health care than in other areas, that is its problem, its responsibility, and it will be accountable for that to the voters of Quebec. But I do not like it when the members opposite use the House of Commons to support Mr. Bouchard's campaign, saying that the health care situation has absolutely nothing to do with mismanagement by Quebec's health minister and by Mr. Bouchard's government and with the bad choices they made.

In the area of manpower and active employment measures, Quebeckers pay 23% of the employment insurance envelope but receive 31% of the budget under the manpower agreement that we have signed. It is another area where Quebeckers receive a lot more than the federal taxes they pay.

I will say a few words about the ice storm, which gave the Canadian social union concept a very tangible meaning in our cities and villages in Quebec. The government of Canada will pay 90% of the costs.

I know the funding we owe to the municipalities is being withheld by the Quebec government. This subject comes up constantly at Treasury Board. But I would like to say how useful the Canadian social union is for Quebeckers, who receive a substantial share of federal funds. As the member for Papineau—Saint-Denis, I benefit from the social solidarity that we enjoy in Canada and I am very proud of that.

I want to tell members about five improvements that were negotiated with the provinces in recent years, including the national child benefit. The two levels of government in this country wanted to do something about child poverty. This is why, in the current three-year period, we will be allocating an additional $1.7 billion to fight child poverty, through the national child benefit system that was negotiated with the provinces, which are partners of the federal government regarding this initiative. This shows the flexibility displayed by our government to renew Canadian federalism, while helping solve the problem of child poverty.

The Quebec government will benefit from a budget increase of $150 million to implement its family policy and day care program, thanks to the increased flexibility provided by the federal government's national child benefit.

The labour market agreements helped us settle an old dispute, while the new Employment Insurance Act enabled us to better help the unemployed get back to work. In the next five years, will give to the Quebec government an annual amount of over $500 million to help its unemployed get back to work.

The Canadian social union is working very well, and I should repeat that while Quebeckers make 23% of the total contributions to the employment insurance fund, they get 31% of the budget spent through active employment measures and training funds. This means a net gain for our fellow Quebeckers. We are pleased about this because this is what Canadian solidarity and the Canadian social union are all about.

We also re-established the employment ministers forum so as to work on, among other things, the matter of unemployment among young people, which is dividing the country and hurting us. We are determined to beat the problem of high unemployment among the young. This is a priority of the labour ministers forum. We meet regularly. This priority around our Youth Employment Strategy and the provincial programs where we co-ordinate our benefits much more effectively also represents significant progress in the Canadian social union to the advantage of our friends in Quebec, once again.

We also have a new employability assistance program for persons with disabilities. This employability assistance program replaces the former occupational rehabilitation program for persons with disabilities, a program that expanded from $168 million to $193 million.

And what about this assistance to help people with disabilities readapt? It is a framework agreement, a broad and multilateral one, that covers all of Canada, but within this agreement, we have signed individual agreements with each of the provinces so that the framework agreement applies differently within each of the provinces, according to the priorities each has set.

This then is the state of the Canadian social union at the moment. It represents real solidarity among Canadians. It is totally flexible and attuned to the needs of each of the provinces in Canada.

Last year, we also considerably improved the student loans system in Canada. The level of debt is very high in Canada, as you know, and we took major steps in the latest budget to improve the student loans system in Canada, a system that is receiving greater funding. To improve our system of student loans in Canada, we consulted with the provinces, the banks and student associations. I think we came up with a student loan system that will help to considerably reduce student debt.

We are modernizing the country and we are building real social partnerships. I would like today to thank all the provincial ministers I have had the opportunity of working with in recent years. Together, we have shown that, for children, for persons with disabilities and for students across the country, the two levels of government can rise above petty partisan squabbles and narrow debates over jurisdictional issues. What all governments really want in this country is to serve our fellow citizens so they may have a bright future.

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, the minister began his speech with the old refrain. I have the feeling I have been listening to the same tape for a number of years now. It all sounds the same. He is even using the same figures, when in fact things have changed.

One of the things the minister mentioned was fluctuations in the EI fund. I would have liked him to tell us that, in Quebec's case, the fluctuations are all on the positive side of the ledger, with that province contributing $475 billion more than it receives in EI. Quebec contributes to the EI surplus but the government leaves it out of those programs where we receive more than we pay. This is simply not right, and he knows it. Quebec does indeed make a contribution, leaving us behind and the federal government ahead, with our money to throw around as it sees fit.

He cleverly avoided saying anything about the Saskatoon consensus. Nowhere in his speech was there any reference to it. Will he tell me which of the four principles in the motion about the Saskatoon consensus is not worthy of implementation? Which of the four components in the motion—which he probably has in front of him—is he unable to approve and support? I would dearly love to hear what he has to say about this.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Témiscamingue. I would invite him to carefully reread what I said from my notes just now. What I said—and he says my figures were wrong—is that Quebeckers contributed 23% of the employment insurance fund and were the recipients of 31% of the envelope in active measures.

What is extremely important is that these people, who are constantly complaining of not having their fair share, receive more than their share in several areas. The hon. member for Témiscamingue did not mention the $4 billion Quebec receives in equalization payments, close to $4 billion, which represents 47% of the equalization payment budget. That is a sum Mr. Bouchard could have invested in health or education, had he wanted to, for those $4 billion are given by the Canadian government with no conditions attached.

Last week, I followed the work on social union very closely, because my colleague, the Minister of Justice, was there representing the Government of Canada. I was very pleased that, at the end of the day, this federal-provincial discussion ended on an optimistic note.

I am confident that we will manage to modernize the Canadian social union for the benefit of Canadians. There has been concrete progress at the sector tables to which I have referred, namely improvement in measures against child poverty. The national child benefit that was negotiated with the provinces in a superb partnership.

We have a new employability program for the disabled, a framework agreement but one that is renegotiated individually with each province. I have already mentioned some of the others.

The progress already made in each of these sectors encourages me to believe that, where social union in general is concerned, we definitely have an agreement that will serve our fellow citizens, not to try to play one level of government against another.