Debates of Oct. 7th, 1998

Apec Summit

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I quoted to the House of Commons a statement by the member for Palliser to the effect that he did not discuss Airbus at all. I cannot have a better witness than the member for Palliser.

The hon. member is the fourth member to use Airbus, when the solicitor general and the member for Palliser have said there was no discussion of Airbus. Who is not following the rules? He just wants to score cheap political points.

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Prime Minister.

As the Prime Minister knows, our entire ministerial system of government is based on confidentiality and accountability. This minister had public discussions on the airplane. Everyone can make mistakes. He talked about the new international centre for correctional studies in Canada. That is before the cabinet of this country.

This minister violated an oath by talking about something that is before this government. Should he not resign over that issue alone?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have debate. At this moment everybody is talking about the next budget. Everybody is raising questions about what we should do.

In the old days, nobody debated anything until the Minister of Finance decided. Today we have participation because we have an open government. When it is not confidential, I hope that members of the cabinet and the caucus discuss with their constituents what the government should do. That is democracy.

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, learning from this government we can say anything we want on an airplane, but just do not admit it.

Let me ask the solicitor general. At 3.30 p.m. on Monday, outside this House, he did not know who the person was, male or female. Would he advise this House what time he got on the phone and talked to Mr. Toole and asked him to write a letter to defend him? What time did he do that on Monday?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday when the question was originally put, it was unfamiliar to me. I could not recall who I was sitting with on the airplane.

Over the last five years I have taken that flight 300 times. Consequently, I inquired to find out who was on the plane. I determined who was sitting beside me. I made a phone call. I found out what the discussion was about. That is the basis of my position and it is the truth.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Even Mr. Toole, a member of the Liberal Party, does not wish to go any further than what he has written to cover the minister. Does the Prime Minister not realize that the Solicitor General's defence is pretty slim and that he should do the honourable thing and resign immediately?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have discussed this problem. What we want is for the commission to be able to do its work as soon as possible, so that all Canadians will know exactly what went on in Vancouver last November. That would serve everyone's interests.

The Solicitor General rose in the House, stated his position, confirmed by a letter from this lawyer, and I accepted that. I am confident that the Solicitor General is perfectly able to perform his duties, given his outstanding track record as a public servant in New Brunswick and his work as an MP here in the House of Commons.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Prime Minister not to change the subject.

We are not talking about the commission, but about his minister. Mr. Toole's letter is clear. During the flight, the solicitor general discussed the APEC investigation, and he should not have done so in his capacity as solicitor general.

What is the Prime Minister waiting for to do the only honourable thing, which is to ask for the resignation of his minister and, more importantly, to accept it?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I answered that question yesterday and again today. The solicitor general has the confidence of the government.

I provided a clear reply and I am very proud to have a person of his calibre and experience serving in my cabinet.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let us summarize here. We have the solicitor general prejudging the outcome of the APEC inquiry. He is publicly commenting on Frank Moores and Karlheinz Schreiber. Finally, he is breaching cabinet security.

As a Yankee's fan he must know that three strikes mean you are out. When is the minister going to resign?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, all three of those allegations are false.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let me put this in words that the minister will understand. There are two exits in the front, two exits over the way and two in the back. When is he going to pick one and resign?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, this entire exercise is on the basis of notes that were taken by a person who was two seats away from me on a plane, when in fact the person to whom I was speaking has substantiated my recollections of this discussion.

I think it is unworthy of this place. I have too much respect for parliament not to suggest that this is unconscionable in this country and in this place.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Regardless of the actual content of the discussions between the solicitor general and Mr. Toole on the plane last Thursday, the fact remains that the solicitor general should never talk about his files in a public place.

Does the Prime Minister not agree that the carelessness of the solicitor general makes him unfit to fulfil his duties, and that he must therefore resign?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, discretion is an essential requirement for a solicitor general. It has now been proven that this minister has loose lips.

Is this not a sufficient motive for the Prime Minister to relieve him of his duties immediately?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general rose in this House. He followed the tradition by making a solemn statement, telling the House what he remembered from the conversation. This has been confirmed by the person to whom he talked, while someone was snooping on them, contrary to the ethics usually followed by the members of this House.

As far as I am concerned, eavesdroppers are not of the same calibre as Tommy Douglas and David Lewis.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, what is unconscionable in this House is that this minister does not have the good sense to resign. His indiscreet comments have convicted Staff Sergeant Hugh Stewart without a trial. Headlines across the country indicate that he is the fall guy. I thought people were innocent in this country until proven guilty.

I am going to ask the solicitor general again: Is he going to have the good sense here today to resign?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said many, many times, I have incredible respect for this process. I speak of the process very often publicly, in support of the process and in support of getting to the truth. I have done that on many occasions and I have done it on many occasions in the House. I believe that we have an obligation to let that process get to the truth.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general is attempting to fasten his seat belt and ride through the credibility storm. It is unbelievable. He has obviously prejudiced the outcome of this procedure.

Because the solicitor general will not resign I will ask the Prime Minister, is he going to ask for his resignation today? Yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, six times I have said no. Maybe they are not listening.

We have an inquiry that is looking into the matter at this moment.

What is is amazing is that hon. members only have this to talk about. It is a great compliment to the government when I see, for example, the opposition finance critics getting up but not talking about the finances of the nation.

There is only one little problem. We want the inquiry to give us the truth as much as they do and as soon as possible. They do not want to have the truth because they have nothing else to talk about.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Prime Minister wants to speak of truth, Mr. Toole did not say in his letter that the Solicitor General had not spoken of APEC but that he had not interpreted the Solicitor General's words about APEC as prejudicial. In other words, the Solicitor General did speak of it.

I am asking the Solicitor General if he will tell us today whether or not he spoke of it, because his—

[The Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois. The Solicitor General now has the floor.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I spoke of my respect for the process to get to the truth.

Canadian Economy

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

In recent months, the world economic situation has become more and more precarious.

We have seen the government's efforts at the recent meetings of the Commonwealth, as well as the G-7 and the IMF.

Can the Minister of Finance tell us when he will present Canadians with a complete picture of Canada's economy, where it stands and how we will meet the challenges which face us now?