House of Commons Hansard #61 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.

Topics

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

An hon. member

I was.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

I obviously made a mistake by giving my age away here. Anyway, I am giving a passionate speech here.

In 1943 the right decision was made. However between 1943 and 1998 a number of changes occurred not only in farming techniques as we have seen, and I could get into a five hour debate on that, but also in marketing techniques. The CWB has not kept up with the final marketing techniques.

As was mentioned earlier, we recognize that the Canadian Wheat Board in 1943 brought three pillars to the Canadian farmer. It brought a pooling system where at that time all farmers in wheat, oats and barley would pool their crops and would sell them as a single desk seller. It brought in what was known as a government guarantee. The farmer would have an initial payment which would be the lowest amount the farmer would ever get for his commodity. Usually it was lower than what the market would pay but it was guaranteed. It also brought a single desk seller. The farmer could not sell it to anybody else and that individual or corporation would go out and sell it to the marketplace.

Those pillars are still in place at the present time but times have changed. It reminds me of an adage I have heard many times, that it is much better to manage change than to have change manage you. Unfortunately the government with this legislation is not managing change. The change is managing the government and it is not going to work.

I would also like to talk about the process. As members are well aware, I have not had the opportunity of being in this House very long. It has been about a six or seven month period. The first piece of legislation that was thrown on the table was that of the Canadian Wheat Board, my area of responsibility as critic. I wanted to follow the process of this legislation.

Like my colleague in the New Democratic Party, I was perhaps a little naive to say the least because I felt very honestly that in the committee forum we would be able to have input. I thought the federal government would listen to well thought out logical concerns about this legislation.

I have always said I will be constructive in my comments. I will give the government some constructive opportunities and alternatives to what it has put forward as this piece of legislation.

In my estimation the process in this legislation was flawed. Bill C-4 went from this House to the committee. We were told that the minister would listen not only to the people who would make presentations before the committee, but also to the other members on the committee, particularly those from the opposition. The process was rushed. It was flawed. Everybody who talked to us, the witnesses, had concerns, opinions and problems with the legislation. None of those concerns and problems was dealt with at committee stage, when the legislation came back to this House, or at this third reading stage.

It should not work that way. I like the committee. It is an opportunity to share with not only members of government, but other opposition members. It should be the venue where we can work out our differences, where we can put forward some of the more positive alternatives than what have been presented by government.

Nobody has a lock on the best possible legislation. There is always a chance for improvement and we had that. We had it with some amendments that were put forward but unfortunately the government would not do that.

Not only that, but in talking about the process, the bill came back here from committee. We asked to have the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board come back to the committee so we could tell him what we had heard. We were told that the minister could not be there, that this legislation had to go through and it had to go through then. It had to go through before the Christmas recess. Unfortunately it is now February. It did not go through before Christmas. Why could we not have talked to the minister once again and told him what we had heard at that committee session?

Why could we not have heard from the Ontario Wheat Board which is a parallel organization? It could have explained to us what is good and what is bad about that organization so we could try to implement the good into the Canadian Wheat Board. Why could we not have heard from it? Because we did not have time in committee. Unfortunately we had the time but the government did not want to give us the time.

Then the bill came to this House. This was the opportunity to talk to the House, to the government, to the opposition, to the minister and put up our amendments to the legislation. Good amendments in some cases, not so good in other cases.

Then the government decided that too much debate was going on in this House on C-4, so it implemented closure. Closure is not a good term. No, no, it was not closure. I am told it was time allocation. I accept the argument of the government that it was time allocation, semantics. The government said “We no longer want you to talk about this legislation because we do not like what you are saying, we do not care what you are saying and we are going to stop the debate”. So the government stopped the debate.

That was the process I had the opportunity of taking part in for the very first time. I hope beyond hope the next time a piece of legislation is presented by government that we do not follow the same process. I hope it will be much more open, that it will be much more honest and that we will have the opportunity to put forward what we consider to be good, solid, well thought out changes to a flawed piece of legislation.

Let me go on to some of the areas which we still have concerns with. I said there were some good things in the legislation, and I mean that sincerely. The Canadian Wheat Board right now under its form of management and governance does not work well. But do not forget, this was put into place in 1943 so there should be some changes. A commissioner form of governance does not work as management.

Anybody who has any dealing with the private sector, with private business, knows that a single CEO or manager or owner is the best and only management for a corporation. Instead of having a commissioner form of government where there are up to five commissioners making the law or rules for the board, the government said it will have one individual to be the CEO, a very good move. Unfortunately it did not go far enough because it said it would appoint that CEO. It was the wrong thing to do. The government was almost there, but it did not go far enough. We now have a chief executive officer of the Canadian Wheat Board to be appointed by government.

Then we go to the board of directors. The government was almost there. It said very emphatically and passionately that this board is to be controlled by the farmers, the producers. It is a farmer-producer board. But it did not go far enough. There are 15 members on the board, 10 elected and 5 appointed by government. If the government really believes in what it says all 15 members should have been elected and the CEO should have been appointed by the board. Then it would have been truly accountable to the producers it is supposed to be working for.

There was an amendment I cannot believe the government turned down. It came from the Reform Party and me. It said simply that the corporation should be working for the farmers. The corporation will be working for the producers. The government turned it down. The corporation is working for the corporation, not for those producers the government says it wants it to represent. I cannot believe it turned that amendment down.

Let us talk about accountability and access to information. If it is true that the government believes that this is for the producers why not be open to the producers, the same people who own the corporation? Let them have access to the corporation, its books and its operations. There was an internal report done in 1992, some six years ago, and the producers cannot get access to it. What if the corporation is not working in their best interests? They should have access to information.

We talk about choice. There were some amendments put forward that would allow producers a choice with respect to opt-in, opt-out and hedging. The government would not accept those as well.

The last one is the one I have the most serious concern with, the inclusion clause. That clause was never in place in Bill C-72 when it came before this House, before the last election. Now all of a sudden it rears its head. It is the clause that has to be put into this legislation, Bill C-4. It means to include other commodities on a single desk selling basis, a monopoly basis. Quite frankly I have not found anybody who wants that clause. I have not found anybody who says give us the inclusion clause. I am very disappointed.

We have been dealing with this for six months. I have been dealing with it for six months and others have been dealing with it for much longer. The inclusion clause has always been an issue. Yesterday, three hours before the final vote on the amendments, we were approached by the minister who said we are prepared to talk about some minor amendments to the inclusion clause. Where was the minister and where was the government six months ago when we talked about this? It cannot be done three hours before the amendment is going to be voted on.

The only way we can deal with this logically and legitimately is to have this government send this legislation back to committee and let us talk just about the inclusion clause. Let us talk about some amendments to that clause that are going to be accepted by everybody in the House, including the opposition.

I see that my time is up. It has been a very interesting process, to say the least. It has been an interesting piece of legislation. When it is passed today it is still not going to solve the problem. The government has not managed the change.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Speaker, we have heard a fairly slanted view of history from the hon. member.

I would like to answer one question he raised at the end of his speech. He said where was the government the last six months. The government has been consulting, listening and meeting with producers on this issue since 1993. I happened to be on the last committee which held hearings in western Canada. That is where some of the changes came from.

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris began his remarks by talking about free enterprise. He believes in free enterprise and he believes in choice. Let me submit to him that if he believes in choice, why is he opposing the inclusion clause? That gives producers a choice other than the Winnipeg commodity exchange and the open market.

The fact is the Canadian Wheat Board is making the free enterprise system work to the advantage of Canadian producers. It is collective selling. In any market the lowest seller sets the price. The Canadian Wheat Board is ensuring that Canadian producers do not compete against each other in the international marketplace. As a result, the returns are pooled and the maximized returns are given to the producers. That is good marketing management. I am surprised that members opposite do not support good marketing management.

The member also talked about marketing techniques which the Canadian Wheat Board has not kept up. Nothing could be further from the truth. He lives in Alberta, but I do not know if he has ever been in the offices of the Canadian Wheat Board. It is marketing intelligence and marketing at its best.

Study after study has been done. The wheat board report talked about the additional $265 million per year in wheat revenue which the Canadian Wheat Board obtained for producers because of collective selling over what the open market would have brought in. That is good marketing. It is using techniques. It is using a war room in terms of marketing, finding out what its customers are doing and maximizing the returns to producers.

Would the member not agree that this bill, improved as a result of consultations and discussions, offers choice, both in terms of excluding and including crops? It offers the choice which he claims to support.

Does he also not agree that this bill puts producers in charge of their own destiny and in charge of their own industry?

Those are the kinds of improvements which came about as a result of committee hearings. If we look at the original Bill C-72 and compare it to Bill C-4 and its conclusions we will see that producers are now in charge when previously they were not. Would he not agree?

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, there were some wonderful questions in that rhetoric.

First I should point out that my hon. colleague is, without question, the strongest defender of not only the Canadian Wheat Board but, obviously, of monopoly selling, single desk selling and the inclusion clause. He was the author of the inclusion clause which is in Bill C-4.

I learned a long time ago that philosophically I differ with some people on certain issues. This is one of those cases. I have learned that as much as I argue my position I will never convince that individual of my position, nor, conversely, will the hon. member in his arguments convince me to think his way. So we agree to disagree.

I will answer his questions. Yes, I said that there have been some changes made to the Canadian Wheat Board Act by Bill C-4 which are positive. I said that governance has been changed and I like the governance. The fact that producers can cash buy now as opposed to pooling is a positive change, but the government did not go far enough. It did not manage change into the 21st century.

The hon. member, who probably wants to be minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, talked about the best marketer ever.

If that is the case, and it may well be, then what is the concern of the Canadian Wheat Board to open itself to the competition?

If it is the best marketer ever and if it gets the best price ever, every producer will continue to be a customer of the Canadian Wheat Board. What is the member afraid of? If it is that good, it should be able to compete.

I made a comment in this House not long ago. It happened with other utilities that were afraid to compete. They were opened to competition, telephones, electric and gas. They are now open to competition and those monopoly utilities are just as good now if not better than they were as a monopoly.

Why is the Canadian Wheat Board afraid to compete on that basis if it is the best marketer of that commodity?

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Speaker, it is always a pleasure to listen to the lone Tory from out west. It is really encouraging that he is trying to encourage the eastern members of his party to come on side, to Reform's position on the Canadian Wheat Board and we certainly support his efforts in that regard.

My question revolves around the fact that this minister, as the hon. member so eloquently put it, came into this House with an 11th hour amendment at the last point. He has had a year and a half with this legislation. We had it at committee. We have had the travelling road show during the last Parliament and yet he comes in at the 11th hour and accuses the opposition of trying to somehow not better the bill by some opposition members denying unanimous consent to put forward this amendment.

I had some consultation, as did the hon. member, with the minister a couple of hours before he proceeded to bring into the House his last minute amendment. Is his understanding the same as mine that it would not substantively change the inclusion-exclusion process, merely put it into a different part of the act?

Second, will the fifth party be supporting my amendment to send this back to committee? At that time the hon. minister, like all other members of this House, will have ample opportunity to put forward whatever amendments he sees fit once the bill is back in committee.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, first of all I would like to introduce the Reform members to some of my colleagues from Atlantic Canada. They do not have any Atlantic Canada representatives. I have one from Ontario as well. We truly are representative across Canada. We have a national party. We will get that out of the way first of all.

Second, the hon. member had indicated whether we would support the amendment of the Reform Party. I told him before and I will make it public now that we will support the amendment to have this legislation sent back to the committee for the very simple reason, as the minister did in a last minute attempt, to massage the inclusion clause.

Unfortunately it did not change it substantively. It took the trigger point of the inclusion from a representative of a producer group to the minister.

I have some faith in that minister, that he would not trigger the inclusion clause. But there are other people opposite who, if they ever became minister of that board, I would have very serious concerns about, having the kind of power to trigger an inclusion clause.

I believe the minister is on the right track. I believe the minister should have this clause rethought, looked at again. The best way to do that is to take it back to committee. Therefore we will be supporting the amendment to go to committee.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joe McGuire Liberal Egmont, PE

Madam Speaker, I too have had a very interesting experience dealing with this piece of legislation. My experience may be as interesting as that of the member for Brandon—Souris, as both of us entered into this debate probably two years after the debate started on the changes to the wheat board.

Given the various opinions that exist in the western provinces with regard to the role and function of the wheat board, the legislation struck the right changes to satisfy most producers affected in the Canadian west.

As previous speakers have said, western Canadian farmers need every possible advantage to tackle head on the challenges inherent in the changing global economy. We have heard that said over and over. The Canadian Wheat Board gives them an advantage that makes them the envy of farmers around the world.

Farmers have said clearly that they want the Canadian Wheat Board, but they want it to be more democratic, more responsive and more accountable, and this legislation does that. It would maintain the single desk system of selling grain that allows the wheat board to command premium prices from its customers around the world. It is a system that the majority of western farmers appreciates and wants.

The legislation fundamentally changes how the wheat board would be run. Farmers would be empowered to direct their own wheat board. While government would continue to be a partner, it would play a much smaller role in the new modernized Canadian Wheat Board.

Bill C-4 would not only change who runs the wheat board but how it would be run. The bottom line in Bill C-4 is that farmers through a majority elected board of directors would decide their own future. Directors elected by farmers would assess the performance of the Canadian Wheat Board and of senior management. They would be able to make changes if performance were not up to expectations.

Farmers quite rightly would make these important decisions about their own destinies through the board of directors which they would control through their two-thirds majority. If this is not democratic, if this is not transparent and if this is not fair and appropriate, I do not know what is.

With the passage of Bill C-4 the wheat board's future would not be determined by the government or by members of the House. Bill C-4 will come as a great relief to tens of thousands of farmers whose livelihoods are linked to the Canadian Wheat Board. They deserve to have the power to design their own futures.

I emphasize the support which exists outside the Chamber for this legislation. The precursor of this bill, Bill C-72, was widely debated. The agriculture and agri-food committee held about 40 hours of hearings on it in Ottawa and more critically in Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary and Grande Prairie. The committee heard from more than 40 groups and 40 individuals. Many more people supported the legislation than opposed it.

There were concerns. The government listened and the committee took action. After these hearings the standing committee made more than 20 amendments to the bill. Those amendments are reflected in Bill C-4.

Under Bill C-4 the system by which the Canadian Wheat Board is currently run, that is by government appointed commissioners, would end and be replaced by a 15 member board of directors. The majority of directors, 10 out of 15, would be elected directly by farmers themselves.

Could anyone in the House of Commons name another $6 billion corporation that would be run by a board of directors, most of whom are elected by the clients they serve? This is more than unique. It is unprecedented.

The directors would have real power to direct all the business affairs of a modernized Canadian Wheat Board. They would have the power to review all Canadian Wheat Board sales and financial data, bar none. They would have the power to select their chairperson, set their own salaries as well as those of the chair and the president and, if necessary, recommend that the president be fired.

As farmer elected representatives, the directors would be as responsible to their electorate as we are. They will listen and respond to the needs of producers. If they do not they would likely not gain re-election. That is accountability.

We have heard a number of calls in the House for farmers to elect all members of the Canadian Wheat Board to the board of directors. Usually those calls point to the Ontario Wheat Producers' Marketing Board as an example of a grain marketing agency with a fully elected board. The question that usually follows is why the same cannot be done for the Canadian Wheat Board.

There is a number of quite valid reasons for treating the Canadian Wheat Board differently from the situation for grain marketing currently found in Ontario. The Ontario Wheat Producers' Marketing Board does not benefit from the same government guarantees as does the Canadian Wheat Board. The government does not guarantee the borrowings of the Ontario board while it does guarantee Canadian Wheat Board borrowings of more than $6 billion.

The situation is also different with respect to export credit guarantees. The Ontario board does not have its own export credit program. Rather it obtains export credit from the Export Development Corporation, an organization with a board of directors appointed entirely by government.

The Canadian Wheat Board operates its own credit grain sales program which benefits from a government guarantee. This is another reason for having the government appoint at least some members of the Canadian Wheat Board board of directors.

The financial implications of decisions made by the Canadian Wheat Board are much larger than those associated with the Ontario board. On average the Ontario Wheat Producers' Marketing Board markets about 900,000 tonnes of wheat per year mainly in Canada and the United States, while the Canadian Wheat Board markets an average of 25 million tonnes of wheat and barley per year in more than 70 countries.

The Canadian Wheat Board would continue to exercise certain public powers conferred by parliament such as the issuing of export licences for wheat and barley for all areas of the country. The Ontario board does not have such powers. For example, it must obtain export licences from the Canadian Wheat Board.

The government's role in Canadian Wheat Board operations would change from one of paternalism to one of partnership. The government would guarantee to provide financial guarantees to the wheat board. As these guarantees are worth billions of dollars, the government would need to continue to ensure the guarantees did not become a drain on the public treasury, as is only prudent.

The government would appoint five directors but the directors would be in a minority. The majority elected by farmers would clearly hold sway. Farmers in the Canadian Wheat Board have also asked for more options in how grain is marketed and paid for. As I mentioned earlier the Canadian Wheat Board is envied around the world for its size, its clout and its success. Of course it comes under attack by our trading competitors. Its high rating among global buyers clearly makes it a threat to our competitors.

The governor of North Dakota recently said that farmers from both countries should work together. He suggested that as a first step North Dakota farmers should be able to sell their grain to the Canadian Wheat Board. At the same time the United States bashes the Canadian Wheat Board.

If it were not doing a good job for Canadian farmers, would the U.S. government give a tinker's damn about the Canadian Wheat Board? I think not.

With Bill C-4 we are doing the right thing. We are positioning the Canadian Wheat Board for the new millennium and giving farmers the power to steer their own future. Bill C-4 deserves the full support of all members of the House.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Madam Speaker, I have a couple of very simple questions for the chairman of the agriculture committee.

How much opposition would there have to be to Bill C-4 before the government would withdraw the bill and send it back to committee? Does it matter what producers on the prairies think, or is the government going to simply ram it through?

The reason I ask is that by accident it was delayed over the Christmas break and I was allowed to go back and consult with the producers of wheat and barley. They told me clearly what they thought about it. I have ample evidence, which I have already talked about, that clearly points out they do not want Bill C-4.

How high does the level of opposition have to be before the government would withdraw it? Would it have to simply be 35%? Would it have to be 50%? Would it have to be 75%, or would it have to be over 80%?

The reason I ask is that it is over 80%. We have taken surveys. We have checked with people on both sides of the debate and they do not want Bill C-4.

What do they want? They want some of the amendments we have put forward. I know how they feel. I gave them ample opportunity to examine the amendments. Ninety-seven per cent of them want a preamble to the bill to change the mandate of the board. Yesterday the government nixed all 48 of the amendments put forward.

How many wanted an opt out clause: 83%. How many wanted a sunset clause and the auditor general to check it: 86%. How much opposition does there have to be?

The second question ties in with the first one. So far the government has not allowed the auditor general to measure the performance of the board against its mandate. It continues not to allow it. It says that it allows an auditor to look at the books, but the government well knows that auditor does not do what the Auditor General of Canada does, that is measure whether it is meeting its mandate.

Why does the government hide the fact that some employees get a $120,800 annual salary, a $110,635 annual salary, a $119,113 annual salary, a $129,999 annual salary or a $115,000 annual salary? The Auditor General of Canada would expose that kind of stuff. Why is the government hiding that information from farmers?

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Joe McGuire Liberal Egmont, PE

Madam Speaker, to accuse the government of ramming through the legislation is going beyond the credible stage. We have been at this for three years. At some time all good things must come to an end. In this case the debate over the Canadian Wheat Board has gone on long enough. Farmers in the western provinces would agree that the debate has gone on long enough and that it is time to make a decision and get on with life.

Everything in the bill is not etched in stone forever and ever. If there comes such a time that the changes do not work then the appropriate measures will be taken. However, to accuse the government of ramming through the legislation with time allocation is stretching credulity.

If 10 of the 15 members of the new farmer board want to hide things from their fellow farmers who elected them, I suppose that is up to them. If Canadian wheat farmers who elected the majority of members are not satisfied with the auditing procedures of the people who were hired by the board, I have no doubt the members would change it and institute measures that would be more acceptable to the people who elected them.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Roy H. Bailey Reform Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Madam Speaker, I have a comment for the member opposite. Not only did my colleague from Yorkton—Melville give some statistics of what happened during the Christmas break. I too could give some that are very similar to his. This is not making up something. These are real and actual.

Does the minister realize that every MP elected to the House whose majority of constituents come from the rural wheat producing area, with the exception of one, will be voting against the bill? Does that not make any difference to the government opposite?

We have listened to our constituents say no way and the government does not even listen to that.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Joe McGuire Liberal Egmont, PE

Madam Speaker, the hon. member forgets that the minister responsible for the wheat board also lives in Saskatchewan. The member was not the only one who was home during the Christmas holidays. The minister was there taking the pulse of the producers out west. He came back and offered an olive branch to members opposite which they rejected to a man. They will not consider any other option but the destruction of the wheat board.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

On questions and comments, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

I rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker. The hon. member who just spoke is from the government side. Normally the process is for the questions and comments to come from the opposition.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The rule is usually that we go from one side of the House to the other.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Speaker, obviously with the questions coming from the other side, those members have not listened to what the chair of the committee and the hon. member for Egmont have said. Clearly they have not listened. If the rhetoric we hear from the other side in this debate is the same as they are telling producers, it is no wonder they are confused.

I have been fortunate enough to have followed this debate in the first hearings. We held hearings in western Canada. I was very fortunate to have attended those hearings. At them we had support for this bill, in particular the inclusion clause, from Canadian organic certification co-operatives, Canadian registered organic producers marketing, the Saskatchewan Catholic rural life ministry, the National Farmers' Union, the Canadian Wheat Board advisory committee, the Saskatchewan women's agriculture network, pro-Canadian Wheat Board campaign, the sustainable agricultural association, the Government of Saskatchewan, quite a list of individual presentations in support of the inclusion clause.

My question, because obviously the members opposite were not listening—

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, some of the things the member is citing are blatantly false. We are talking about Bill C-4. Those people are not in support of it. The Government of Saskatchewan does not support Bill C-4.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Maybe the hon. member did not hear me correctly. These are groups and individuals calling for or supporting an inclusion clause during hearings of the House of Commons committee on agriculture. That is what we were talking about.

Maybe the member for Egmont could summarize what he said by explaining again, because they never heard him the first time, how he sees the board being more accountable under this new system under Bill C-4.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Joe McGuire Liberal Egmont, PE

Madam Speaker, I believe members opposite know the amount of consultation that has gone into this piece of legislation. As I said earlier, there are a lot of different of opinions being expressed in the wheat producing provinces with regard to the wheat board and what should or should not be done there.

I think the minister has struck a proper level here in consulting and listening to the people who are affected by the wheat board.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Portage—Lisgar, MB

Madam Speaker, it has been an interesting morning. I would like to announce that my colleague from Yorkton—Melville will split the time with me.

I heard the question asked today why are farmers against ten elected directors. I will tell members exactly why they are against it. They have had over a dozen elected advisory board members and they have never represented the farmers who elected them, to work for them and to try and promote things that make the board more transparent and accountable to farmers.

They would not even come out and support the board when the courts ruled that it had no mandate to act on behalf of farmers but rather on government.

What has happened recently is that it is not just the farmers who do not want the board anymore, the people working for the board are concerned that their jobs are going down the road if the board does not become transparent and accountable.

I got a document from the wheat board last weekend showing how much management deadwood is on that board. Out of 454 employees, there are 130 some with management titles. I can list them, every single one, if members want to know. There are 131 management people who are probably eligible for a huge pension and a severance package. If the hon. member for Malpeque wants to look in the book and turn to compensation, it says there is $21.991 million in wages. Out of that there is another $5.139 million in benefits, like EI, pension, group insurance and medical; 24.5% per cent are benefits out of a $21 million wage package.

That is better than being a Liberal MP. They should start running to be elected to the wheat board. That is where the big bucks are. The farmers starve but the wheat board lives pretty well. That is why farmers are getting disgusted. That is why they are going to change the system. It will not take a government to change it. They will do it themselves. Farmers have done it before and they will do it again.

Why are farmers so dead set against a marketing system that did work for them? Because of the secrecy and suspicion in it. Nobody trusts the wheat board anymore. Why do they not trust it? In 1994 when we had the fusarium wheat in southern Manitoba, the wheat board said we could not sell that wheat because there was no market. The farmers could dump it, burn it, do anything they wanted.

David Sawatzky found a market for it. He exported I do not know how many millions of dollars worth. What did he get for it? Wheat that was worthless. He got thrown in jail. What did he do? He went to the law books and he started studying law. He won the case. The government was not happy with that so it appealed it. He beat it again. That is why farmers are upset. That is why farmers are going to beat this lousy system. That is corrupt.

I hope I am not getting too loud because I do get excited. Mr. Speaker's nerves are a little better, so I can start going ahead. Mr. Speaker, you can turn your ear this way because the Liberal government's hearing is kind of bad, but the Speaker sometimes does hear things that he should not. We will forgive you for that.

That is one example. I want to point out another example. Andy McMechan was another one of those farmers who trucked over a couple of million bushels of fusarium rotten wheat. What did they do to him? The minister changed the Customs Act as soon as Sawatzky was declared innocent.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

An hon. member

By order in council.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Portage—Lisgar, MB

By order in council. What did they do? They through thousands of dollars of forfeitures against him. They took his truck. In 1995 all of a sudden they figured they could not beat this little farmer either. What did they do? They got farm credit to put a collection agency on him to collect the bill of $27 that was overdue for a year. That is how this Liberal government treats farmers.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans on a point of order.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, it is a quite an allegation when the member claims that the government asks FCC to send a bill—

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

This is debate, not a point of order.

Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Portage—Lisgar, MB

If the hon. member would like the documents, I can show them to him. I have them all in my office.

When they could not shut him down that way, what did they do? They caught him taking a load of barley across with his old trailer and a tractor. Because he had to have some income, he took a tractor and a trailer. When he came back, the government said “You cannot get $6 for that barley in the U.S. when the wheat board only wants to give you $2. That is criminal”.

The Liberals were going to stick a forfeiture on the tractor and he said “I am sorry, sir, I have to use the front end loader of that tractor to feed my cattle or they will starve. I cannot do it all by fork”. Do you know what the crown prosecutor did to this man, Mr. Speaker? He gave him six months in jail for taking his tractor home to feed his cattle. Six months in shackles.