House of Commons Hansard #75 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was flag.

Topics

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1 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

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Reform

Val Meredith Reform South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have proven my point. We do not need any flags to disrupt a person's right to speak. We are all capable of disrupting a person's right to speak and of denying them the opportunity. We do not need flags.

Whether the Liberals want to listen to the answers to their questions, the point of this motion is clear that it is Canadian flags.

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An hon. member

That's not what you just said.

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Reform

Val Meredith Reform South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

No. They asked me what I thought and I said I have no objection to provincial flags being brought into the House. But the motion is very clear that we are talking about the Canadian flag.

As a member of Parliament, when I want the right to express myself by putting a Canadian flag on my desk, it is wrong but if somebody wants to wear a button or make comments on the expression of their position, that is okay.

I suggest I have as much right as anybody else to express my emotions or whatnot in whatever way I feel is applicable. Maybe a small Canadian flag is the way I wish to express myself, and I am being denied that.

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1 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Before the hon. member for York South—Weston poses his question, I remind all hon. members to address each other through the Chair. In particular when emotions run high, it tends to keep us at arm's length.

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Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, can the hon. member advise the House whether she is aware of any other place in Canada, whether it be a public place or a private place, where the displaying of the Canadian flag is prohibited? Could she also comment on whether she believes the prohibition of the displaying of the Canadian flag in a place other than the House of Commons would be contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms?

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1 p.m.

Reform

Val Meredith Reform South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any place where the Canadian flag is prohibited from being displayed. Any infringement on a person's right to put a Canadian flag up in a public place would be an infringement. It certainly would be in the House of Commons. This is the seat of government for the country called Canada. If we cannot put a small flag on our desks, I think it is an infringement on my right.

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Liberal

Sarkis Assadourian Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have one point to make and a short question. It is not against the law to display the flag. We have two flags here. We are talking specifically about putting them on our desks.

Last week one of our colleagues, the member for Medicine Hat, threw the flag on the floor. As far as I know, he did not apologize for it, nor did he pick up the flag. Did the hon. member have the chance to speak to her colleague about the incident? What does she have to say on this subject?

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Reform

Val Meredith Reform South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, no one condones what happened at that time and the member for Medicine Hat has apologized for throwing the flag.

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London West Ontario

Liberal

Sue Barnes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Revenue

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Brossard—La Prairie.

I have asked to speak today but I am saddened that this debate is taking place. I think of all the things we could be debating tonight. We are voting on budgets, among other things. I think of what has been displaced by this time. But it is a choice. Canadians have to understand that while the government is elected and generally puts its legislation forward to be properly debated in this House, we have these days of opposition motions, and it was the Reform Party, the party of the member who just spoke, that chose to have this debate. We must understand that.

This debate is not about who is the most patriotic. I do not find this debate to be about patriotism. I firmly believe that patriotism is not only individual. It is collective as a nation. It is the sharing of values and what we believe.

I do not find it necessary to stand up and parade all the examples of how I show my patriotism. I am here as the servant of the people who elected me from the constituency of London West. They elected me to do the business of the nation. They elected me to come to this Parliament and to debate with my words, not with props, with flags or with noise. They elected me to think, to research, to represent and, I believe, to lead.

When I was thinking about what I would say today I looked back to my first speech in 1993 when I talked about what a privilege it was to serve in this House. I talked about having the courage and the courtesy to serve not only my constituents but my own sense of values. That courtesy, I believe, extended to members sitting across from me.

When I spoke for the first time in the 36th Parliament I said “I wish to congratulate the Speakers”, and I went on to say that I would co-operate and respect this office and this Parliament. I also said that I would continue to treat other members with the respect and courtesy which any member of Parliament deserves.

I believe that is fundamental. I think the issue we are really addressing today is how this Parliament functions for all Canadians and how we bring the legislature out of the war of words into action in our communities.

This is a very democratic institution. From across the nation men and women are drawn together, often sacrificing time from their careers and their families, to express ideas and to battle each other through ideas and policies, not individually, not the political thrust of the cheap shot. How we manage to do that is through an institution called the Speaker.

The Speaker in Canada is elected by all members of the House. It is the very first thing we do each time we come together to open a new Parliament.

The Speaker has been given the obligation to make sure that order is maintained in the House. The Speaker is there to make sure that when I rise to speak I do not have to fear someone coming at me physically. I can get my ideas across to all the people in the land. I can put forth an argument that can be heard. The Speaker ensures that I have the ability to make my argument democratically, logically, without coercion or fear from anyone in the Chamber.

There are parliaments, such as the one in Kenya, where last spring the members almost began a fist fight. There have been other examples throughout the Commonwealth and other democracies.

The purpose of this Chamber is to debate ideas. It is not for stunts.

I ask how have we come to this position where it is us and them politics. The symbol of our nation sits beside us. It has not been outlawed to have the flag in this Chamber. I am looking at it. Canadians can look at it. Every time the camera is focused on the Speaker they see it. We are not outlawing the flag. This is not about flags. This is about our being able to speak freely. We are able to speak freely because there is a person sitting in that chair who keeps order in this place.

This is a back door effort to appeal a ruling of the Speaker, whom we all said we respected when we elected him, which was made yesterday.

I heard an hon. member opposite say that all they are asking for is a yes or a no today. They want to talk about it again. If they had ears or eyes in the House yesterday they would have seen every party except one stand to applaud the Speaker. The Speaker's decision was right. It was based on precedent and precedent in this Chamber has ruled out props. Why? Because they are not necessary.

It is not necessary to have push button politics and stunts on the Hill. It is not necessary to hire mariachi bands to know that absenteeism is wrong.

I have two teenage sons. I do not want to see grown men sitting around in an unsafe manner, abusing the flag as was done on the Hill.

The taxpayers do not want to see any member of Parliament behave as these people have behaved in the last little while.

I remember a time in 1993 when somebody said “we came to Ottawa to do politics differently”. How different has it been? It has been very different. It seems that research, logic and courtesy have gone the way for cheap headline hunting. I see this motion as political manipulation of a very base kind. I do not have to defend myself that I do not love my country or I am not patriotic enough because there is a symbol sitting in front of me. I wonder how many people sitting at their desks today have a symbol sitting in front of them. However, I would never question their loyalty to this country.

The absence of symbols in this House in this manner is not the be all and end all. I appreciate the fact that members opposite have even acknowledged that today. I think it is reasonable.

This is about reasonable debate, following the rules, courtesy and respect for the institutions of our democracies as shown by the Speaker's rulings. To my knowledge there are no appeals to Speaker's rulings. We do not do things in democracies by the back door. There are rule books such as Beauchesne's which states very strictly how to go against the Speaker. One may bring forward a motion and debate it. Do the members opposite have the courage to debate that? I do not think so.

I think this is a way out. However, things are very rarely answered properly by a yes or a no.

What we have here is something which I regard as one of the lower days of debate and it is not because I do not value my flag. The flag deserves to be known for what it really is. In Canada it is a symbol of a country that knows peace, shows tolerance and knows understanding. It is a symbol of those that are greater than the individuals who stand in this country, whether they are here by choice or by birth, and it is worthy of respect. It is not worthy of disrespect to make cheap political points and play political games that are not entertaining, funny or worthy of the democratic institutions as fine as Canada has.

We have one of the best democracies in the world. We have one of the best parliaments in the world. In my maiden speech in 1993 I said to a member of the Bloc, who talked to me about the right to speak, that I would defend their right to speak but did not have to agree with their ideas.

I will be voting against this motion tonight because I do not believe that I need to have a prop to show my love for my country or the value of this institution. I know what I am doing and I know my constituents will understand.

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1:10 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, I did note very carefully the member's comments about respect for the Chair and that is something that I share. I wonder if she could reflect for me on the Chair's statement that the Chair could not unilaterally change the conventions of Parliament but that Parliament itself could. We have a convention which states that flags should not be used in the House. This convention came from a specific display years ago. However, the Speaker said that Parliament could change the conventions.

Would the member stand and explain to me how she finds this process today, which is attempting to do that, offensive?

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1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Before the hon. parliamentary secretary responds, because we had other members from the opposition wanting to ask questions, we will go to the opposition for the second question.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt in my mind that the member of the Reform Party had the right to choose the subject matter of debate. There is also no doubt in my mind that Reform members knew last night, as we applauded the Speaker, what the outcome of that vote would be. All they had to do was look around to see that the only persons not applauding the Speaker's decision were the Reformers.

Yes, they have the right to bring this to debate. However, it is not a debate that was needed to take the time of this Parliament when we have situations of unemployment, the budget and other important situations. However, that was not my choice. It was theirs and they have made. I also think there are other manipulations going on here which I think Canadians are beginning to understand.

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1:10 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is so opposed to the debate, why is she participating in the debate?

I have been listening to the debate all morning. Perhaps the hon. member can explain why, instead of dealing with the merits of the motion before the House, she and her colleagues have chosen to attack another political party. They accuse the Reform Party of being partisan in bringing forward this motion. Rather than dealing with the merits of the motion itself, she has chosen to attack the Reform Party, presumably to make political points.

My question to the member is does she feel somewhat inconsistent? On one hand the Government of Canada is saying to Canadians to fly the Canadian flag and it sent out hundreds of thousands of flags to Canadians this past year at a cost of millions of dollars. On the other hand, she would support a restriction of the use of the flag in the Canadian House of Commons.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the member has shown up for this debate. I am glad he is here.

I am here because I am on House duty today. Members of Parliament come to this place to work. This is part of my work, being in this House at a time when I am responsible to be here, to partake in the debate of the day and I will do that.

I wonder if the member opposite knows that is a part of the work of this House.

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1:15 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member talk about how reprehensible the stunts that have revolved around this issue are and how offensive they are to her. I would ask her if that is the case, speaking for herself or her party, why all the flags were waving on that side of the House on the day the incident took place. It was a Liberal member, I believe, who distributed the flags. It was a Liberal member who started to sing O Canada during the debate. What has her party done to discipline those individuals for this reprehensible display that they started?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the member opposite, but of course I am constrained from doing so, what his party has done to discipline those members who threw the flags in this House.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that the opposition, given a day of debate, uses the whole day to talk about flags, when there are so many national issues and concerns. I consider this opposition party is paying us a remarkable compliment on the work we have done.

Perhaps I could point out that I consider respect for patriotism is also expressed through respect for the language of those who make up our country and I can only deplore the fact that the text of the motion, which arrived by electronic mail, contained so many mistakes in the French as to insult me personally.

Patriotism is a fine thing, but it starts with respect for those who make up this country and respect for my language.

On the subject of patriotism, I would like to mention two or three very brief experiences demonstrating that patriotism does not always find expression in a flag. It is something we feel very deeply.

Last July 1, my first Canada Day as a member of Parliament, I was given the honour of an invitation to attend a citizenship ceremony. I spoke with the new Canadians saying “Look, I arrived here twenty years ago and like you I ended up here on these chairs; today I represent the Government of Canada”. That was a symbol of pride for me. That is my patriotism.

At the great demonstration in Montreal before the 1995 referendum, my daughter Jessica had the honour of singing the national anthem. I was behind the podium when she did. I saw the crowd. I saw the emotion. That is what patriotism means to me.

In 1991, I was elected to chair the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when it was very difficult being a federalist in Quebec. And for my daughter to have sung the national anthem and for everyone to have risen with tears in their eyes, that for me is patriotism.

My patriotism is not the show off type. It is deep and genuine. It is not made up of symbolic values artificially displayed for purely political reasons.

I realize that symbols are very important. I noticed, in Quebec in particular, that the Quebec flag was appropriated by the separatists, as if it belonged only to separatist sympathizers. I have deplored that.

The word “Quebecois”, as in Parti Quebecois and Bloc Quebecois, was also appropriated by the separatists, as if the other parties in Quebec were not “Quebecois”. I know how powerful symbols can be, but beyond the symbols, there is something greater, there is what we feel deep down. To fight about flags in this House is to use a highly respectable symbol for partisan reasons of opposition and appropriation, which I vehemently condemn.

This seems to me to be a pointless motion. It seems to be counterproductive, unnecessary. What saddens me above all is that we are wasting so much time debating it. It is as if we were giving Canadians the signal, or symbol, that we parliamentarians are prepared to waste precious time that would be better spent serving the people of this country.

I find it most unfortunate that this flag debate has been turned into an exercise in demagogy. I want to believe that, when the flag is used, there is a modicum of sincerity—

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1:20 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was listening very intently to my colleague opposite and to his impassioned speech about patriotism and so forth.

It seems to me that when we impugn motives in this House that we should be censured. The member opposite has just accused us of practising demagoguery. I submit that that is impugning motives behind our motion today. The motion today is not about that.

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1:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I apologize. I was not paying attention to the hon. speaker. I did not hear the words being used. However, the hon. member for Wetaskiwin is quite right. If the word or the inference was there, I would ask the hon. member for Brossard—La Prairie not to impute motive.

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, when one moves a motion, one should logically have a reason to do so. And if so, it is my duty, as a parliamentarian, to make a value judgment on that reason. I am not imputing motives. So, I stand by my comment to the effect that this is a red herring. It is not a debate on patriotism, but a debate that has absolutely no substance. Again, I deplore this.

I was going to conclude by saying I sincerely hope that everyone in this House will agree on the eminently respectable character of the Canadian flag. However, I will conclude by asking this question: If the motion is passed, if those who want to display a flag on their desk are allowed to do so, and if I do not want a flag on my desk, would this mean I am less patriotic than other members? This is totally absurd. I condemn it and I deplore it.

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1:20 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the speaker and certainly I think he should read our motion. Our motion is not about asking or forcing people to put flags on their desks.

It is entirely about the ability to put a flag on one's desk if they so choose. I think if this debate were to be held anywhere else in the free world, it would be surprising. Our flag is welcome absolutely anywhere on foreign soil and it is just amazing to me that we are debating whether or not the Canadian flag can sit on members' desks if they so choose.

As has been pointed out over and over again today, we are certainly at liberty to wear a maple leaf lapel pin, one of which I am wearing today. I do not see any difference in that.

When the hon. member tries to infer that we are trying to make out that anyone who does not display a Canadian flag on his or her desk is less of a Canadian, I think he is completely off the mark.

I notice this period is known as questions and comments. Those are my comments.

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1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is the kind of comment that reminds me of the position of someone who is so preoccupied by preparing a question he has forgotten to listen to the one who is speaking.

I said very specifically in French, and I will now do so in English, if this motion were to be adopted and if I decided not to have a flag on my desk, the question was clear, should that mean, would that mean or could that mean that I am less patriotic than someone else who has it? I say putting the question is totally absurd.

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1:25 p.m.

Reform

Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

At page 145 of Beauchesne's, on June 16, 1963, “demagogue” was deemed to be an unparliamentary term. I would ask that the member withdraw that statement.

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1:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I will have the blues checked. If the hon. member for Brossard—La Prairie used the term demagogue, I will ask the hon. member to withdraw.