House of Commons Hansard #99 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.

Topics

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3:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Wentworth—Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is simply between a mishap due to negligence or a mishap due to an act of God if you will. If negligence can be proven prior to 1986 there is no doubt that compensation is in order.

I submit to the hon. member that what we want to avoid is the type of situation which occurs in the United States where people sue a doctor or a hospital regardless of negligence. As soon as the mishap occurs a lawsuit occurs. We do not want that to happen in our system. After all, our system cannot be risk free. If we go to the hospital for any cure, we are going to run a certain amount of risk.

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3:45 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on this and share my time with a member from New Brunswick, if I may.

I am pleased to see the government announce earlier today that it would be supporting this opposition day motion. Indeed it is rare in the House of Commons to have the government stand up and vote in favour of a motion of an opposition party.

I am pleased we made some progress and that the government wants to at least bring to the table the representatives of the Hepatitis C Society when the minister meets with his provincial counterparts later on this week. I maintain that is a step in a positive direction.

We all remember last week after the vote took place in the House the minister went out and faced the television cameras. He looked the camera lens in the eye and he said “The file is closed”. Thanks to the Canadian people, the file is not closed. The file is open and I think we are going to see several changes made in the original position of the federal minister and his provincial counterparts. That is a good thing.

I want to applaud public reaction, public pressure and public opinion for forcing the government to reopen the file. It shows that the democratic system can work when there is concerted public pressure and public opinion. When there is people power it can force a majority government to reopen the file and do something one day it said it was not going to do the previous week. That is a very good and positive thing about how this institution sometimes can work on behalf of ordinary people.

The logjam was broken when the premier of Ontario, Mike Harris, announced yesterday that his government would compensate all sufferers of hepatitis C in terms of the provincial amount of that compensation.

It is very important that we do not have two tiers of settlements and two tiers of health care in this country. It is important that the federal minister take the leadership now, reopen the package and make sure that all people who suffer from hepatitis C are compensated in a fair, compassionate and just way.

That should be done for a number of reasons. First of all the Canadian people have asked that we do it. They have shown compassion. There are past precedents for doing this.

The situation in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean two years ago comes to mind. There was a great flood in this part of the province of Quebec. The federal government provided support for the people of Lac-Saint-Jean. The same was true in the case of the people of southern Manitoba. I refer to the Red River, which flooded last year as well.

The same was true for last January's ice storm, in which the provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick and Ontario, and the Ottawa region in particular, were hard hit. The federal government was compassionate and provided assistance to the disaster victims, as it has done on a number of occasions in this country.

There was also the compensation for the victims of thalidomide and victims of HIV. The thalidomide case took a long time before it wound through the courts, but again there was compensation for all the victims.

What I am saying here is that once again we have had a regulatory failure and the federal government should be willing to take the leadership in making sure that there is fair compensation.

I want to make one other point before I sit down and I think it is the most important one of all. The federal government has the obligation to provide the lion's share of the compensation. I say that for a couple of reasons.

There have been massive cutbacks in social programs in terms of cutbacks from the federal government to the provinces in the last few years. Last year there was a cutback of $6.5 billion in transfers from the federal government to the provinces. That cutback is in effect this year and next year, $6.5 billion each and every year. That is less money for the provinces for health care and education and welfare programs that would have been there had it not been for the Minister of Finance cutting back in a cold and callous way in his budget a year or so ago.

Because of that the federal government has an obligation to fund the lion's share. I am sure the hon. member from Mississauga would agree with that, to fund the lion's share of the compensation for hepatitis C victims.

Because of these cutbacks, the federal government has a surplus of several billion dollars this year. The federal government can afford to compensate the victims of hepatitis C. It has that surplus because it has been cutting back in transfers to the provinces, cutting back in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Atlantic provinces, Quebec, all the provinces. I maintain the government has an obligation to provide the funding for the compensation of the other victims.

I agree with the Government of Quebec, which said so last week. As did British Columbia and Ontario, before it changed its position and decided to compensate the victims in its own province.

The money is there for the victims of hepatitis C and the federal government should lead the way.

In terms of funding, when medicare first became a reality in this country in 1967, there was an agreement that the federal government would fund 50% of the cost of health care in this country, 50 cents on the dollar. What is it today? Today the federal government pays not 50 cents on the dollar, but 13 cents on the dollar. It has gone from 50 cents on the dollar to 13. That is a shameful record for the Liberal Party of Canada that once prided itself as being progressive and compassionate and forward thinking.

In fact the father of the current Minister of Finance was the Minister of Health back in the 1960s when national medicare became a reality in this country after the provincial leadership of the CCF in Saskatchewan with Tommy Douglas and Premier Woodrow Lloyd.

I say that is a shameful record and it is no wonder the member from Mississauga is now hanging his head in shame over that legacy of the Liberal Party. The Liberals are much more conservative than Brian Mulroney and the Tories and the hon. member for Mississauga knows that. That is why he is hanging his head in shame. He does not dare get to his feet and respond to an argument of that sort because the figures speak for themselves: 1967, 50 cents on the dollar; 1997, 30 years later, 13 cents on the dollar. Mulroney would not have even dreamed of doing that, and that is exactly the legacy the Liberal Party has left Canadians.

If the sufferers of hepatitis C want to see who the culprits are, they should look in the eyeballs of the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Health. Those are the people who refuse to provide adequate funding to people who are suffering from a disease through no fault of their own, suffering from a disease because of the fault of regulators who allowed contaminated blood to go out into the system.

Mr. Speaker, I make that appeal through you to the minister and the government across the way, that they start once again adequately funding the health care system in this country. What a better place to start than to pay the lion's share, the overwhelming share of the cost to compensate these victims who are suffering from a disease through no fault of their own.

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3:50 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, does the hon. member agree that this meeting of the health ministers that is about to take place ought to take place in a public fashion as opposed to the health ministers getting together behind closed doors? Does he not agree that Canadians and in particular victims of hepatitis C have a right to see who is showing true leadership, who in fact has genuine compassion when it comes to assisting those that are sick and disabled?

I am pleased that it appears the motion put forward by his colleague will carry later on this afternoon. It appears that the Liberal government will be supporting the motion. Would the hon. member go one step further and agree that the meeting should be open to the media so that all Canadians can see exactly what is happening?

Can the hon. member explain how in the first place $1.1 billion was put on the table? What mathematical calculation was used? How was $1.1 billion arrived at? Is it simply that amount divided by 22,000 or can he explain? Is there any explanation as to how that amount was arrived at in the first place?

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I think the answer to the second question is that there was a lot of guesswork in coming to the $1.1 billion. I do not think they know for sure how many victims they are going to compensate with that $1.1 billion.

The member knows the federal government is to pay $800 million of that and the provinces $300 million of that, and that division came of course because of negotiations. But the $1.1 billion is just a guess, I assume, from what I have heard and may or may not be accurate. Indeed that money will now have to be increased to compensate all victims.

I also want to comment on the first part of what the member said. I am pleased the House is going to support the motion today. I think the House should also be saying to the ministers of health, let us televise those hearings. Let us have those hearings in public. We did that in some of the constitutional process which led to Charlottetown, the member may recall.

There is no reason the hearings cannot be televised. The victims of hepatitis C could see exactly where every minister stands, where every province stands, where the federal government stands. Just as important, the Canadian people could see the response of their governments. Let us negotiate in public. Let us have a transparent process. Let us open up the democratic process in this country so we have more accountability and more visibility.

I would certainly favour any motion anyone puts to that effect in the House.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague the member for Qu'Appelle for his very important comments on this issue.

In particular he clarified our position in light of the comments by the previous Liberal speaker, the member for Wentworth—Burlington, who has tried to blur the lines on this issue and to engage in false debate.

I am pleased the member for Qu'Appelle was clear about the fact that we are talking about federal regulatory failure for which this government has absolute responsibility, and medical mishap for which we have other processes in place to respond. I appreciate the fact that he clarified that in our estimation blood injury as we are dealing with now is an injury arising from dereliction of duty of a very specific and unique nature pertaining very much to the federal government's role as regulator.

I want to ask the member if it is not the case that the Food and Drugs Act was set up to provide minute to minute control of emergency health hazards. Is it not the case that the federal government as regulator was and is the only body, the only organization in the blood system that could single-handedly cause a safety feature like the hepatitis C testing to be implemented in response to the very serious issues we are dealing with?

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. The buck stops where the buck stops. According to the law in this country it stops with the federal regulators. I think the member for Winnipeg North Centre has summed it up very well.

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3:55 p.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to address this topic today.

As a new member of Parliament, I learn something new every day. Some days are very sad, when we see how the government treats people afflicted with hepatitis C.

I never thought that we would be debating for days and months simply to bring justice to people across the country who are sick. We really have to ask ourselves where this country is at. We cannot always say we are proud of our country, because so long as we have governments like this one, there will be days we are ashamed of what it does.

As a member, I am embarrassed to admit my association with the House. Canadians often do not make a distinction and lump us all together. But I think it important today to clear that up and try to explain to those listening who the people are that are prepared to make this country's citizens suffer. Obviously we are talking about the Liberals. They are the ones who have made things difficult and are refusing to recognize that there are indeed people who are very ill and that some have even died.

They refuse to accept that they have a responsibility. Yet clearly they do. That is why we are introducing another motion today to continue debate on this topic, in an attempt to obtain justice.

Often, those watching us on television wonder, during the debate, what the topic is. For their benefit, I am going to read the motion:

That this House urge the government to press for the invitation of representatives of the Hepatitis C Society of Canada to the upcoming meeting of federal, provincial and territorial Health Ministers in order to provide advice on how to address the financial needs of all those who contracted Hepatitis C from the federally regulated blood system.

I think that the important thing to remember is that it was federally regulated. This means that the government has a very great responsibility in this matter. We are facing a crisis today. It is a crisis for those who are ill, for families who have lost loved ones, for children who are suffering. We are here, in good health, debating on their behalf, but imagine the situation in which they find themselves today.

Why are we introducing this motion today? Because the initial agreement satisfied no one. The victims were not at the bargaining table to present their arguments and set the record straight. Nobody knows better than those living with hepatitis C what the illness is like. Even those of us taking part in the debate today to obtain justice for them cannot put ourselves in their shoes. We can only imagine what it is like, but it is very difficult.

As we saw this week, some provinces—Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia and even Manitoba—found their heart at one point. We must remember that, at one point, neither the provinces nor the federal government had a heart. They had only wallets. They had lost their hearts and were not looking beyond their billfolds. At some point it is time to put away the wallet and see that justice is done.

That is the problem in this country at the moment. The federal government often has heart when issues concern the country's multimillionaires and the banks. In such cases, the Minister of Finance has a heart, which goes out to the major corporations. I think it is time the Minister of Finance put his two feet flat on the ground and began to think about reality and the type of country he is creating today. He is building a country we are not proud of, and it is time he stopped. It is time the people in this country—it is the voters who will do it—put a stop to current policies, whereby the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

We are in opposition and we are doing the best we can. We have not done too badly in the past month, either. If we look how far we have come in this matter, we may be proud of ourselves. However, a number of Liberals must surely be hanging their heads pretty low, especially those who were elected on principles of defending the public and working on behalf of the poor. These same people support the government one vote at a time. Then they try to convince us that they voted according to their conscience. It frightens me even more when I hear them say they voted according to their conscience.

Last week, I brought some students down with me, and when they saw what was going on last week, when the government forced all its MPs to vote the same way, they said that the one thing they had learned during the week was that there is no democracy in this country. It is sad to see 16 or 17 year olds with such an attitude.

What is even sadder is that they are right to think this way. The federal government is the main regulatory authority where blood and blood products are concerned. It is, in large part, the one at fault. The provinces are already assuming the health care costs of all victims, regardless of the date they received the tainted blood, at an estimated $80,000 each.

With all the cuts the provinces have suffered at the hands of the federal government, $3.5 billion, they are still going to give money to the victims. They have already given $300 million, or $85,000 per victim, and some provinces are already prepared to do more than that.

Our government often claims it has no money for this country's sick, elderly and poor, and that we ought to be finally understanding this, since the situation has gone on for a number of years. On the other hand, the auditor general discovered a surplus of $2.5 billion, which was kept from the hepatitis C victims. This is a sad state of affairs.

In closing, I would like to say that today, at last, the government has decided to support our motion. I trust it will support it with its heart and is not just trying to redeem itself a bit in the eyes of the MPs it forced to vote against last week's motion. I trust that they will support the motion with their heart and not for political reasons, for I see a big difference between the two.

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4:05 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, there has been consultation between the parties and I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That, in relation to its study of aboriginal economic development, 10 members of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development be authorized to travel to Kuujjuaq, Iqualit and Chibougamau during the period of May 19 to 22, 1998 and that the necessary staff do accompany the committee.

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4:05 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The parliamentary secretary indicated that consultations have taken place. This is the first I am hearing about it. On that basis at this moment I am not prepared to give my consent.

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4:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

We are a little ahead of ourselves as I did not ask for consent yet. If the hon. parliamentary secretary captures the mood of the House perhaps we could delay presenting the question until further consultation has taken place.

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4:05 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have a very difficult question for the member from New Brunswick.

I agree with her statement, but I want to ask a question that I think is very important for those of us in small provinces like Saskatchewan or Manitoba. The federal government cut social programs by $6.5 billion last year. I am thinking of health and education, among others.

The member comes from a small province, New Brunswick, with an unemployment rate, if memory serves, of close to 13% or 14% and budget problems up until last year, or the year before that.

Are annual cuts of $6.5 billion a big problem for a small province like New Brunswick? Is it a problem for her province's health system?

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4:10 p.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

It is indeed difficult for a province like New Brunswick, which has a high rate of unemployment. If we look at my riding alone, an unemployment rate of 14% would be good, but it is more like 16%, 17% or 18%, and it keeps going up, while cuts to health care programs continue unabated.

Of course, the federal government cannot expect New Brunswick to come up with millions and millions of dollars. It is just not going to happen. That is why the responsibility must lie with the federal government. It is a federally regulated system and the federal government must assume its responsibilities and not shift the bulk of the responsibility onto the backs of the provinces.

When the federal minister sits down with all provincial health ministers, he will have to take the situation of the rich provinces and the poor provinces into consideration, because not everyone has $200 million to throw into the pot.

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4:10 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her comments. I re-emphasize what the member for Qu'Appelle mentioned regarding whether the province of New Brunswick would be able to come across with additional moneys if the federal government fails in its responsibility to compensate the victims.

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4:10 p.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat what I said. If the government is expecting New Brunswick to find $200 million overnight, it will not happen. I have no doubt. I know what kind of situation we are living in. We must not forget that we have a Liberal government in New Brunswick which is doing as much damage as the federal government is doing. It is not a nice scenario. I do not see any improvement until at least the next provincial election.

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4:10 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, Canadians still do not understand how the federal government and the provincial governments arrived at $1.1. billion. There is a huge discrepancy in terms of the actual numbers of victims. Somehow the federal government ended up putting $800 million on the table and the provinces $300 million. We do not know on what basis that formula was arrived at. I remind the House that there is only one taxpayer in this country, Canadians from coast to coast. They pay their taxes both to the provincial government and the federal government. Canadians have made it clear they want all victims compensated.

In light of the significant development yesterday where the premier of Ontario agreed to inject an additional $200 million into the compensation package, would the hon. member agree that in order to maintain any semblance of credibility the federal government has to come to the meeting not just with an open mind, not just with an open heart but also with an open wallet given the excellent fiscal situation the federal government finds itself in? It tends to boast every day about how well—

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4:10 p.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, absolutely. If the Minister of Health did not get the okay from the Minister of Finance there would be no need to sit down at the table. We know he is the one running the show in this country. There is money on the table from some provinces, at least one province. I hope if he is going there to find a settlement for the neglected sick affected by hepatitis C, I suggest he just sit at home. There is a need for money. This is not a meeting where we will sit down and look at each other. There has to be a serious discussion and a package out of this at the end.

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4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time this afternoon with the hon. member for Mississauga West.

I have sat here day after day listening to attempts to make it seem like our government is working according to a purely legal approach, that it is just tossing people out on the street with nowhere to go for medical help.

I have observed that we have one of the very best health care systems in the world. I am sick and tired of partisan opportunists trying to make it appear as though our government has no social safety net, like we are an uncaring society.

It is especially galling coming from the opposition party whose bluebook advocates the gutting of the Canadian medicare system. Also galling is the myth that they have helped propagate, that Canada is behind other countries in terms of how we are dealing with hepatitis C.

I stand here today to ensure that the truth is not hidden within the lines of political rhetoric and partisan excess. Of course we have all heard of Ireland's approach to its own particular circumstances. For partisan critics Ireland's program is the one they highlight, the one against which all comparisons are made. However this single example is not one which can really be compared to our own. This is a different society with different structures, processes and pressures.

Ireland created a social program. While I do not know the extent to which it underwent consultation and consideration in that country, I do know that the full implications have not been fully discussed in our country.

How else do we compare ourselves to Ireland? Is its society so similar to our own? Is it the same size? Does it have the same democratic structure? Does it have the same history? Does our supreme court refer to Ireland to see what it has done on issues of law? The answer is a definite no.

When do we copy other countries' policies? Should we adopt, for instance, the U.S. style of health care as advocated by the opposition parties? Do we follow the human rights practices of other countries?

The answer to all of those questions is no. At the same time we should look to see where practices that do fit our own circumstances might exist.

If we have to consider other countries then I suggest we should take a look at what other major industrial countries have done. By that I mean the G-7 or the G-8 as we now include Russia. Among these countries nobody has followed Ireland's approach, nobody.

Let us look at Italy which has only given some very limited help to hemophiliacs. It has excluded everybody else. Can we really say the people abroad get the same kind of care we get here in Canada? That is really where it ends. Nobody else has even come close to providing the compensation offer that we are providing in Canada.

I think we should now make it a matter of record perhaps to compare it to some other countries. What has Russia done? Nothing that we know of. What has the United Kingdom done? It has defended itself in court and it is defending itself in court without acknowledging any type of responsibility outside that court. The same goes for France, Japan and Germany. Germany is conducting all legal claims through the court system.

Then there is the United States where we understand there are very few lawsuits. Why is that? That is because in 1986 it used surrogate testing on a national basis and we did not.

Today Canada has acted in a reasonable, responsible and clear way that even brought people into the picture who did not have lawsuits. We did so because that fits our rationale. Is that a purely legalistic approach? Has anybody else in the G-8 done this? No.

Let us go beyond those nations for the moment. Let us go beyond those countries against which Canada is most frequently compared and look at New Zealand. New Zealand does not compensate those with hepatitis C. It used to but only through its no fault system for accidents.

Now a large number of people have been left out by changes made in 1992. Why did they make changes that restrict access to this deteriorating program? They made them because New Zealand's no fault system is hurting as is its health care system. Is this an example we really want to follow?

People with hepatitis C are now left out of that system. They are suing their government. Should we be following the path of a nation that might eventually be following ours? Its newspapers report that Canada's approach might provide direction as to how it will deal with this problem. We should not be copying New Zealand. We should be learning from its experience.

Finally, there is Australia. Australia has settled its litigation out of court. We do not know exactly what has happened because there the agreement is secret. What we do know is that it settled cases that came about because it failed to use surrogate tests. This does sound awfully familiar.

We know it settled its cases without the Australian public knowing the conditions of the settlement. We also know it did not include people who had no court claim. It hedged its bets. Its rationale was purely legal. That is the approach that fits its public environment, culture and history. It suited its particular circumstances.

We have gone beyond that. Nobody can say that we took this legal approach because, as I said, our national approach to hepatitis C includes people who although they did not file a court case were affected at the same time as the rest. They were affected during a time when Canada's blood system should have performed better.

No other comparable country has included so many people as this country has. No other country has been as responsible as we have. That is the international record on this matter. Canada is a leader in its approach. It is not a blind follower.

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4:20 p.m.

NDP

Louise Hardy NDP Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, it does not matter what Canada has done. Even though we are a leader it still is not enough.

There has not been much mention about the territories and the the vastness of the space there. There are a lot of people in both Yukon and Northwest Territories who have been affected by hepatitis C. In Yukon there is one hospital and health care cuts have really hurt. People who need to get from Old Crow into Whitehorse have to pay a $1,000 plane fare or try to find an ice road in the winter to get to the hospital. If they need treatment that cannot be done in Yukon; they have to be flown to Vancouver.

One of my constituents who has hepatitis C is not being compensated and is still struggling to work. It cost her $15,000 in lost wages to be able to go to Vancouver, which is a three day drive from Yukon.

Our health minister is saying that if we have a solid health care system in place these people will be taken care of. They will not be taken care of because our health care has been dismantled by the Liberal Party. The individuals who are sick and are struggling to keep working will not get the care they need.

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. opposition member describes the situation in the territories that exists with regard to all people there who are ill.

The geography of the territories is such, and I know full well having visited there, that it is very difficult for anyone who is ill to cope with distance, time and conditions. This does not change under this set of circumstances but is in play day in day out and a part of the geography and difficulties of that land.

There has been a need to reduce transfer payments. While that was done it was stopped at $11.2 billion and restored to $12 billion. There are many different causes for the changes that have come about, many by the provincial and territorial decisions that have been made when addressing their systems of delivery. There are choices in that regard in addition to coping with all we have had to do to put our books in order.

I do not see anything particularly different in this set of circumstances other than what exists when relating to health care delivery in the territories.

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4:25 p.m.

Reform

Mike Scott Reform Skeena, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with incredulity to the hon. member comparing Canada to other countries. Naturally she did not want to be compared to Ireland but she did want Canada to be compared to Russia.

Since we are talking about being compared to other countries, does the hon. member agree the actions the Prime Minister took in forcing his backbenchers to vote with the government, making this a confidence motion, which was a sham to begin with, and forcing the backbench to vote with the government undermined what little faith Canadians had in the House?

It has been laid bare for all to see. There is no real democracy in this place. There is no real opportunity. These debates do not mean very much when at the end of the day the Prime Minister will crack the whip and tell his backbench how to vote. They will jump and dance to his tune. I would like the hon. member to respond to that.

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4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Aileen Carroll Liberal Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will respond to the opposition member's inquiry with regard to the workings of government in Canada.

It is frequently a difficult and onerous task to decision make. It falls upon the shoulders of government to do so. That essentially is the difference between governing and sitting on the opposition side of the House. We exhibit courage. Many times we have to make decisions that are difficult to make.

We do so knowing that we were chosen by the people of Canada to undertake that role, to be their government and to stand up for what we have to under extreme conditions. That is why we have members across the House who are free to shoot from every conceivable corner on every different item from which they wish to shoot, having no responsibility whatsoever for their partisan excess. That is the difference with governing.

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4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, Hepatitis C; the hon. member for Charlotte, Hepatitis C; the hon. member for Halifax West, Multilateral Agreement on Investment; the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Multilateral Agreement on Investment; the hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic, BC Mine in Black Lake.

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4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I too am happy to have the opportunity to put some comments on the record to perhaps challenge some of the misinformation and myths that have been coming from the opposite side.

I want to start by saying that I came to a revelation this morning when I picked up the Toronto Star and read an article by Thomas Walkom. Thomas is an editorial writer, an opinion writer for the Star . I worked across the hall from him when I was at Queen's Park.

I generally find him to be philosophically on the side of the left wing in the entire country, certainly provincially. While I very seldom agreed with Mr. Walkom, I always respected his writing ability and his ability to see through what the issue was all about.

I want to share some thoughts. We talk about the victims, the deal, that it is not good enough, that we should spend more and if we spend too much it will hurt health care. We talk about all these different issues on all sides of the House.

However I think Thomas Walkom really summed up what this debate and this issue are all about aside from crass politics and manipulation of some tragic victims. He says “Most of all, it is about what societies are willing to do for all of those, not just hepatitis C victims, who suffer crippling illnesses”. He goes on to say “If negligence alone is to be the criterion then federal health minister Allan Rock was on solid ground when he talked of limiting compensation to those victims infected between 1986 and 1990”.

The theory, Thomas says, albeit it developed with the advantages of 20:20 hindsight, was that Canada erred in not following the U.S. lead, which I hear my U.S. supportive friends in the Reform Party talking about all the time. He goes on to say that once Canada did start to test the liability ended.

I think this is really the debate that has to happen. Thomas Walkom says that what we should be talking about is a comprehensive public, no-fault, universal disability insurance helping those who for whatever reason find themselves levelled by any debilitating illness.

That does not necessarily mean that we would simply support that. If we think about the debate of that issue I suggest the costs of a complete no-fault health insurance disability plan would be quite astronomical, but we should debate it. It should be a public debate, no question. I hear members opposite saying that the negotiations that are about to take place over this issue should be held in public. The member for York—South Weston says we should have it with the public. That is a terrific idea because then we would know what people agreed to.

This motion by the NDP is a good motion and. It says that the House urge the government to press for the invitation of representatives of the hepatitis C society to be a part of the negotiations. They would be witnesses. That would be interesting if we had impartial witnesses at the last round of negotiations. We would know what the Minister of Health for the province of Quebec said at the table. We would know what the minister of health, the Hon. Elizabeth Witmer, said. I have great respect for her. I worked closely with her in the Ontario legislature. We were both critics of the NDP government which was a rather easy job to do. I got to know Elizabeth and I have great respect for her.

If it was on television, all the better. We would know what was being said. What do we have here? We have a deal that would never have surfaced if not for the leadership of the federal Minister of Health. The former minister of health for the province of Ontario, the hon. Jim Wilson, said see you in court. That was his response.

What do members think Reform Party members would offer in terms of compensation? Imagine their bleeding hearts? I do not even know if they would go so far as to say see you in court. They would say let 'em eat cake. That is exactly what they would say. We know what Reformers would offer as compassion if they had the responsibility to government this place. It would be nothing. The hypocrisy that we have seen over this issue has no bounds. It is absolutely astounding.

We hear from members opposite that we should listen to the people. I have talked to residents. I have had a couple of calls. I had about 400 calls on the seal hunt issue, but I have had a couple of calls on this issue from very seriously concerned people, some of them ill, some of them family members of people who are ill, some of them just trying to understand. When I return those calls they do understand the impact of a universal no-fault health care plan that would simply provide compensation for all victims.

I made a statement in the House a few months ago about Kyle Martin. Kyle Martin was a five year old boy whose father took him to the emergency at Credit Valley hospital. Kyle had a fever. He was very uncomfortable. They spent several hours in emergency until finally a doctor got around to seeing them.

Members opposite would just blame the federal government for something like that, but in our province they have made choices. In fact, they have just recognized that they had made damaging choices because they poured more money back into the health care system for emergencies.

If we want a universal health care system, let me tell members what would happen. Kyle was diagnosed. Once they got to look at him after several hours, they realized they had a serious crisis on their hands. They ordered a helicopter to take him to the sick children's hospital. Twenty-four hours later Kyle Martin was dead.

I talked to his father. Some members in this House, and I thank them publicly, have contributed to the Kyle Martin fund to help a doctor at the sick children's hospital in his research into streptococcus and what causes it and how it can be treated.

Here is the message to the Martin family. What do you say to a mother and father who have lost their five year old son? Do we turn around and simply say federal taxpayers are going to compensate them for that loss? Or do we say they have access to the courts, a right to sue and should sue the hospital and the attending physician and whomever their lawyers advise them to sue? A court case will occur, a decision will be rendered, and if they win there is insurance in place to cover that kind of thing.

What we want to do is wipe out the court system entirely in this country and go to a broad based no-fault system. I do not know who is going to pay for that. I do not know how we are going to fund it and make it sustainable.

I think this motion should be supported and nobody needed to whip me to vote for the Minister of Health. Let me say that to the member for York South—Weston. I wish I had another 10 minutes to talk about that particular problem and how he likes to play politics with victims and games he plays like this.

The fact is nobody needed to whip me. I support the Minister of Health in this. He is the only politician who has shown true leadership from the start in this country. Now that the provinces have come to their senses, we will go back and cut a deal that will be fair for all concerned.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I could not help but chuckle when the hon. member puffed out his chest and said he was not whipped, he did the right thing. Let him go back to his constituency in Ontario and I will challenge him to a public debate in his riding.

Who was he representing when he stood up and he turned his back on the sick and the dying in this country? Who was he representing? The reality is he was just propping up his Minister of Health.

He stands up and says that had it not been for the Minister of Health, earlier referred to by one of his colleagues as his hero, there would not have been money on the table. He knows that the only reason the federal government ponied up money was the Minister of Health had a legal opinion that said if we do not compensate those victims between 1986 and 1990, we will be forced to do so by the courts.

That is the reality and I wish the hon. member would stop talking from his talking points and start looking at the reality. He knows the reality is that the only reason the money was there was legal liability. It was not compensation based on compassion. The minister was looking at legal liability and damages and what he tried to do was contain the damage. But having said that, he inflicted political damage on himself.

Only because the Conservative premier in the province of Ontario has agreed to come forward with an additional $200 million, now the minister and the member have had to swallow themselves whole.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I point out to the hon. member that this young lady happened to be delivering the talking points. I did not even have them when I spoke. I was not referring to them. I was speaking from here.

It is interesting. Every time somebody gets up and says something the hon. member from York South—Weston does not agree with, he rises with his chest puffed out, or maybe that is the normal size of it. He rises in this place and challenges everyone in the House to a debate. I suspect it is because he has nothing else to do, being the leader, caucus, cabinet and entire representative of a party of one. We do not need lectures from that member. To use the analogy of a hockey team, he is one who would play on our hockey team and consistently shoot the puck into our own net. How long would he be kept on the ice? How long would he even be allowed to sit on the bench? He would be booted off and told to go have a nice day.