Debates of June 2nd, 1998

Lieutenant Colonel William Barker

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River has requested that the motion standing in his name be considered a votable motion. Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

There is not unanimous consent.

[David Pratt, Liberal, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to offer my congratulations to the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River for his initiative with respect to Lieutenant Colonel William Barker. I think he has certainly done a service to Canadian history and Canadian heritage by moving this motion.

The House may be interested to know that I have a very similar motion on the Order Paper. Whereas the motion of the member for Dauphin—Swan River talks about a memorial, my motion talks specifically about commemorating a statue to Lieutenant Colonel William Barker.

It is worth mentioning that the hon. member was instrumental in getting Dauphin airport renamed as Lieutenant Colonel William Barker airport. Again, for that, I think the member deserves congratulations.

The history of the first world war has many heroes and many villains, but from a Canadian standpoint I think that William Barker's name stands out as being one of Canada's pre-eminent heroes.

I became interested in Lieutenant Colonel William Barker's story as a young boy growing up in Nepean when I read a popular history book called Knights of the Air which talked about the great first world war aces like Bishop and Barker. It was not until just last fall that I saw a book by an author named Wayne Ralph who lives in B.C. who had done what I considered to be probably the most definitive history on Lieutenant Colonel Barker.

The book struck me as portraying a very sad story. Barker was well known to the Commonwealth and well known to the Canadian people during the first world war because of his exploits. However, tragically, after the war he ended up having some personal problems. Lieutenant Colonel Barker managed to get himself back on his feet again, but on March 12, 1930 he was killed in a very unfortunate air crash on the Ottawa River just a few miles from these parliament buildings at the Rockcliffe airbase where he was test flying a plane for the Fairchild company.

At his funeral in Toronto there were apparently 2,000 soldiers who served as an honour guard. There were 50,000 spectators at his funeral. Today Barker's name has been all but forgotten in the annals of Canadian history.

I find that very unfortunate because I think a country certainly needs its heroes and Barker was clearly one of ours. The Americans have popularized their heroes over the years. Hollywood has done a tremendous job of instilling patriotism in the hearts and minds of many Americans based on the exploits of people such as Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie, John Paul Jones and many other famous American heroes. We do not have that in Canada. We have not had the glorification of our heroes to the extent that the Americans have.

What was Lieutenant Colonel Barker's record during the first world war? As the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River has mentioned, he was credited with quite a number of air victories. The hon. member mentioned 58. I believe his record was 50, according to Mr. Ralph's biography.

Perhaps Lieutenant Colonel Barker's most famous action occurred within two weeks of the war's end. If I could, I would like to refer directly to the Victory Cross citation that William Barker received. I would like to refer to it specifically because I think it outlines why Barker had the reputation that he did during the first world war.

The citation reads: “His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to confer the Victoria Cross on the undermentioned officer of the Royal Air Force in recognition of bravery of the highest possible order: Captain, Acting Major, William George Barker, DSO, MC, No. 201 Squadron, Royal Air Force”.

On the morning of October 27, 1918 this officer observed an enemy two-seater over the forêt de Mormal. He attacked this machine and after a short burst it broke up in the air. At the same time, a Fokker biplane attacked him and he was wounded in the right thigh but managed, despite this, to shoot down the enemy airplane in flames.

He then found himself in the middle of a large formation of Fokkers which attacked him from all directions. He was again wounded in the left thigh but succeeded in driving down two of the enemy in a spin. He lost consciousness after this and his machine fell out of control. On recovery, he found himself again being attacked by a large formation and, singling out one machine, he deliberately charged and drove it down in flames.

During this fight his left elbow was shattered and he again fainted and, on regaining consciousness, he found himself still being attacked but, notwithstanding that he was now severely wounded in both legs and his left arm shattered, he dove on the nearest machine and shot it down in flames.

Being greatly exhausted, he dove out of the fight to regain our lines but was met by another formation which attacked and endeavoured to cut him off. But after a hard fight he succeeded in breaking up this formation and reached our lines where he crashed on landing.

This combat in which Major General Barker destroyed four enemy machines, three of them in flames, brought his total successes up to 50 enemy planes destroyed and is a notable example of the exceptional bravery and disregarded danger which this very gallant officer always displayed throughout his distinguished career.

Major Barker was awarded the Military Cross on January 10, 1917, the first bar on July 18, 1917, which means he won that award twice, the Distinguished Service Order on February 18, 1918, the second bar to the Military Cross on September 16, 1918, and a bar to Distinguished Service Order on November 2, 1918.

I think members can certainly grasp from the account of that particular action that Barker today would be referred to as a super hero. However, he has been all but forgotten.

At the end of the first world war he was definitely Canada's most decorated war hero. He held the Victoria Cross, the Distinguished Service Order and bar, the Military Cross and two bars, the French Croix de Guerre, two Italian silver medals for valour and three mentions in dispatches.

It is also worth mentioning that in terms of his later career, as the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River has already mentioned, he was appointed as the first acting director of the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1924. He was, as was mentioned, the first president of the Toronto Maple Leafs hockey club in 1927-28.

Interestingly enough, his name was so well known that he was used as a character in one of Hemingway's books, in his famous short story The Snows of Kilimanjaro .

Canada has a forgotten hero and his name is Lieutenant Colonel William Barker. I think this nation must in some manner commemorate his name. He is buried in Mount Pleasant cemetery in Toronto in a crypt that bears the Smith family name. Something must be done to ensure that the name of Lieutenant Colonel William Barker lives on and that his exploits and daring are understood by future generations of Canadians.

[Maurice Godin, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Motion M-251, introduced by my colleague from Dauphin—Swan River, in Manitoba.

The objective of this motion is the creation of a memorial recognizing the outstanding contribution of Lieutenant Colonel William Baker, a first world war pilot and hero of Canada and the Commonwealth.

We agree in principle, but all the facts must surely be checked. This Canadian hero downed 53 enemy planes during the first world war and was awarded the Victoria Cross, the Military Cross, French and Italian military distinctions, six citations for acts of bravery from George V and other distinctions. Surely, he deserves recognition by future generations.

I do not doubt the facts, but personally I cannot verify them. The Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada was created for this very purpose in 1919, and we should call on this board, in this instance. I will therefore speak about this board in order to add weight to the bill that will be introduced.

Since 1979 the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada has advised the government on the commemoration of individuals, of historical sites and events of national interest and the mounting of plaques to inform Canadians about their history. Over time and with changes to Canadian historiography, the board widened its scope to include military, political and geographical subjects and to the broader subjects of our social and economic history.

In reality, the board advises the minister on the commemoration of people, events, sites, structures and locations representing aspects of Canada's history of national importance. It also indicates the level of commemoration it deems appropriate, be it the installation of a plaque, the sharing of expenses with a third party or, more rarely, the acquisition or development of a site by Parks Canada.

It can provide information on important persons, places and events of the past, on the principles and techniques of site construction and preservation, and on heritage legislation. Each year, it receives over 200 requests, 50 to 70 of which result in studies by the historic services branch.

It has always viewed its plaque installation program as an educational activity in the broadest sense of the term. To date, it has installed over 1,100 commemorative plaques throughout the country. These are a testimony to its dedication to educating the public. An interesting fact is that it has broadened its definition of heritage to include cultural neighbourhoods, gardens and landscapes.

I therefore agree that the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada should be called upon for advice. We could also follow the example of the Fondation des Amis de René Lévesque, in Quebec City, which is now raising funds in order to erect a monument in his memory.

We all know that not only was Mr. Lévesque a World War II war correspondent, but that he was a member of the Liberal Party of Quebec before founding the Parti Quebecois and becoming premier of Quebec. He was therefore a very important person.

In 1960, he was the father of the quiet revolution and the father of the nationalization of electricity in Quebec; he was also was instrumental in helping the Quebec Liberal Party regain power in Quebec after decades in opposition.

We also owe him the great democratic legislation on party fundraising, which eliminates slush funds, limits contributions and allows the public to participate in the financial control of the parties.

René Lévesque was also the driving force behind the constitutional reform undertaken in the 1980 referendum to save Canada. It is well known that he was trying to achieve sovereignty association in order to put an end to this idea of a federation justifying a centralizing and dominating government.

I could go on for hours talking about René Lévesque and quoting him as an example, but I will stop here for now and conclude by saying that this great man has no lack of feats to his credit, yet it will be his friends who will be putting up a memorial.

I therefore urge the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River to take the advice of the Canada Historic Sites and Monuments Board or follow the lead of the Fondation des amis de René Lévesque regarding this memorial.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on this occasion to speak to Motion No. 251 to create a memorial recognizing the outstanding contributions of Lieutenant Colonel William Billy Barker, a World War I flying ace and hero of Canada and the Commonwealth.

Billy Barker was born in Dauphin, Manitoba. He died in Ottawa on March 12, 1930. He was a cohort of Billy Bishop. I remember Billy Bishop through a work of art basically, a play written by John Gray called Billy Bishop Goes to War . It was an important play that helped me to understand in a very real way what it meant to go to war.

Billy Barker was a cohort of Billy Bishop, just another young scared boy probably of the age of many of our children who went off to war. It is very important to remember people such as Billy Barker and Billy Bishop. It is important that we acknowledge their contribution to the military and to World War I. It is important for Canadians to recognize heroes who served in the armed forces, both men and women.

As the member of parliament for Dartmouth I represent a community with a long and proud military tradition. I have met many of the heroes of today in the military, the peacekeepers, the sailors and the soldiers who make tremendous sacrifices for peacekeeping, national security and such things as environmental clean-up and natural disasters.

Many people right now in Canada are very aware that these people are heroes when they manage to put sandbags around their houses and save their homes or save their children or save their lives from fires. We have many heroes today in the military.

I am also aware that there is a parliamentary committee crossing the country right now looking into the situation of people in the military and addressing the fact that perhaps DND and the Canadian government are not at the present time recognizing the heroes we have here and now. I have also talked with people, peacekeepers who have come home from various war zones with their health is ruined. They are trying to cobble together veterans assistance and basic disability payments. We have to be aware of them also when we are talking about recognizing heroes.

How do we recognize our heroes? There are ways. There are memorials. That is one way. I would say that a memorial for such a person as Billy Barker is an important way to do it.

I also urge that we continue to recognize heroes on a daily basis by recognizing the values that people such as Billy Barker fought for. These are values such as democracy, equality, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, freedom from racism and freedom from injustice. I again say that we have to recognize people in the here and now.

As well I recognize a massive commitment to such things as education of our young people about the contributions of Canadians to politics, war, peace, culture, humanitarian efforts and strengthening our communities. I take this opportunity to talk about some of the real heroes right now in our country.

Today I had the privilege of taking part in the buddies celebration in the centre block of the House of Commons. Over the past year, 18 young people with special needs have been on the Hill every week working in MPs' offices with their staffs. This buddies program gives young people with disabilities a chance to build self-esteem, learn job skills and be part of the world of work.

We have some heroes today, people like the teachers at Ridgemont High School, Ilse Turnsen and Pat Mainwaring, who have put together this program to allow disabled people to fight for their rightful places in our communities. They are heroes of the here and now.

I have in my office once a week a young boy named Capnello Bueti, who is trying to be part of our world of work and I appreciate that.

In closing I reiterate my desire to show the living practical commitment to the values of people such as Billy Barker for all the many years ago he sacrificed for the kind of society we want to live in. In terms of memorials to people such as Billy Barker let us remember by doing, by educating and by committing our public resources to the struggle against such things as poverty, hunger, inequality and racism. As well let us remember by example Billy Barker in the present.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the House that this is Canada. In some respects perhaps Billy Barker did not do so badly for not having recognition when we remember that Billy Bishop got the recognition as the kid who could not miss.

In the National Film Board treatment of Billy Bishop's career it was posed that Billy Bishop lied about the victories that gave him the Victoria Cross. This was the subject of a great debate in the Senate. There were protests around the country on the fabrication of the story that maligned one of our first world war aces.

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. I find it slightly flawed in only one respect. It celebrates only Billy Barker and his roots coming from Dauphin, Manitoba. I appreciate why the member for Dauphin—Swan River wants to celebrate a local hero. The problem is that we have to be a little careful in that respect because the same may be argued with respect Billy Bishop who was born in Owen Sound and certainly ought to have a similar memorial. So it should be argued with respect to various other military heroes of various communities across the country.

That being said, what is so fine about bringing the issue before the House of Commons is that it is not a just question of Billy Barker. It is not just a question of Billy Bishop either. What we are remembering about these two men is the tremendous contribution that Canadian first world war fighter pilots made to the first world war. They were legends in their own time. It was a different era. It was the last era of military chivalry. The best knights of the air were Canadian pilots Billy Bishop and Billy Barker.

I remind the member for Dauphin—Swan River that there are other less well known heroes but heroes nevertheless. I refer to Wop May who went on to be one of Canada's most famous bush pilots and Roy Brown who was remembered as the man who shot down Baron von Richthofen, the Red Baron.

Billy Bishop is famous because he was the surviving ace with the most victories at 72. Richthofen was the ace of the second world war with the most sheer victories before he was killed, some 80 victories.

I have read the autobiography of Billy Bishop. I recommend that all Canadians read it to get into the mind of an individual who reflected the spirit of chivalry that existed on all sides in the air battle during the first world war. It also reflects the Canadian independence of spirit that made Canadian soldiers both in the first world war and in the second world war some of the most admired soldiers of any nation in the world. Certainly that was the case with the fighter pilots of the first world war.

Fortunately, I assure the member for Dauphin—Swan River, there is one very excellent memorial to Billy Barker, Billy Bishop, Wop May and Roy Brown. It is a series of novels by Donald Jack that are loosely called the Bandy Papers. Three Cheers For Me is one of the titles and there are several others.

I say to all Canadians that if they want to read good Canadian literature about Canadian fictional heroes taken from the real life stories of the real heroes they should read the Bandy Papers by Donald Jack. They are some of the most amusing reading I have ever read.

They are very insightful. They build on the wartime careers of both fighter aces. They describe the struggles these two men had. How do I describe it? The British were not great champions of independence. In fact one of the problems of the recognition of the first world war fighter pilots of Canada was that the British were very loath to recognize the colonials for what they did as colonials. In fact they would only acknowledge anyone who was flying the British roundels as a British pilot. They would not acknowledge that Canadians were actually the lead pilots in the Commonwealth forces during the first world war.

I will digress for a minute. If members of the House would like to get an idea of what it was like in Billy Bishop's day or Billy Barker's day, I recommend they go to the Canada warplane museum here in Ottawa. There is a ride available on a Stearman biplane. For $40 one can fly over Ottawa.

I had the great good fortune last summer when my son and I went out to the warplane museum and we took a ride in the biplane. It is quite incredible. We flew over the parliament buildings and over the river. We had this great sense of slow motion and this great sense of being next to the sky, next to the air. We could see what inspired those Canadian pilots of so many years ago. For anyone who wants that thrill, that thrill is available.

To come back to the point, my problem with the motion is simply that it does not go far enough. I wish it were a votable motion and that we could amend it to honour all the Canadian first world war flying aces. I agree with the member. We cannot leave it to bureaucrats, to academics who are sitting out there surrounded by weird senses of personal power.

It does not matter a fig what Billy Barker did after the war. It does not matter a fig what Billy Bishop did after the war. They were heroes during the war. They were special heroes. They were heroes who were admired the world over. Can we in Canada not do anything better than condemn one of those heroes with a National Film Board production called The Kid Who Couldn't Miss which actually maligned one of our heroes?

I hope the minister is listening to this. I hope all Canadians are listening to this because I congratulate the member for Dauphin—Swan River. However, it should not be just Billy Barker, it should be all the Canadian fighter pilot heroes of the first world war.

[Howard Hilstrom, Reform, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Motion No. 251 introduced by my hon. colleague from Dauphin—Swan River. This motion was first introduced by my hon. colleague in October 1997 and is in furtherance of efforts which he made as mayor of Dauphin, Manitoba prior to his election to parliament.

The actions of my hon. colleague illustrate the best elements of election to the House, whereby this House becomes a means to address concerns that caused a member to decide to stand for election.

By this motion my hon. colleague seeks to have the House recognize by way of a memorial the valour and contributions to our history of Lieutenant Colonel William Barker. Lieutenant Colonel Barker was awarded the Victoria Cross for his valour in World War I. It is regrettable this motion is non-votable since a vote would demonstrate to Canadians how parliamentarians view memorials to personal sacrifice and contributions to the freedom of Canada and the world.

On the other hand we have the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River to thank for making the effort to raise this issue in the House, such that our views of Lieutenant-Colonel Barker's accomplishments may be part of the permanent Hansard record and thus part of the permanent historical record of Canada.

Actions such as those of the hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River become extremely important as a means to counter tendencies to forget valorous actions, or to diminish such accomplishments on the basis that they are associated with violence and war.

Memorials are an important means by which we learn about and remember our history. Most Canadians are connected to these famous people, these heroes, in one way or another.

In addition to Will Barker, I personally think of a relative, Harry Amy of Saskatchewan, and aboriginal Tommy Prince of my riding in Manitoba.

Will Barker was a farm boy born in the Dauphin Valley of Manitoba in 1894. As a boy, Will became a crack shot and helped to put food on the table with his skill. His grandfather put money down on his shooting ability in competitions at local community events. Will never let him down.

In 1915 not far into World War I, Barker enlisted with the First Canadian Mounted Rifles. His ability with a gun soon caught the attention of his superiors and he was given air reconnaissance duty as an observer in the second seat of the plane manning the cameras and guns. But Barker wanted to fly the plane.

On November 8, 1916 he was reassigned to the Royal Flying Corps and on January 12, 1917 began flight training. After two dual trips, one of 50 minutes and another of five minutes, Barker soloed and received his flying certificate on January 18. On February 14 Barker was graded a flying officer.

William Barker completed both ground and flight training in three weeks at Oxford University. The normal time for ground training alone was six weeks. Although Barker was recognized for his heroism in the air for shooting down some 50 enemy planes and balloons, he was known as a leader who would never leave behind any member of his squadron. No flyer died under his command.

When Wayne Ralph, author of Barker VC , asked another of Canada's air aces, Ken Guthrie, whether he liked Barker, he replied “Like Barker? I liked him, more than liked him, I practically adored him”. The closing paragraphs of Wayne Ralph's Barker VC go as follows:

Unlike Britain and the United States, Canada did not build a `Tomb of the Unknown Soldier' after the Great War. It took us 19 years to put up a national war memorial. We do not have a national military cemetery, our 100,000 war dead lie buried in foreign soil. If it is true, as one Canadian philosopher has noted, that Canadians seem to like their heroes smaller than life, then Barker is sadly irrelevant.

Outside of Canada, however, he is still remembered. Almost all the magazine articles and narratives about Barker in the past 20 years have been written by British or American writers who still like their heroes larger than life, and don't mind them having a darker, more complicated side.

Canadian historians and writers quickly erased everything that made Barker a human being, especially his physical and psychological pain. We were left this cartoon image of a warrior—his life before and after October 27, 1918 (the day he won the Victoria Cross) only a footnote. His internment in the private Smith family crypt, without even a bronze plaque to mark his place, was the final footnote.

Our most decorated war hero gradually became our unknown soldier, except, most importantly, in the hearts of the men and women who had loved him.

I take great pleasure in speaking today in memory of Lieutenant-Colonel William Barker. I certainly would like to support the motion of my colleague.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

As is the practice with Private Members' Business, the last five minutes of Private Members' Business is reserved for the member moving the motion. The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River has the last five minutes. If he speaks, that is it. So if anyone else would like to get on, there are seven minutes of debate, and 12 minutes in total remaining.

[Inky Mark, Reform, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to thank all the members of the House who rose today to speak in support of Lieutenant Colonel William Barker, VC.

What we have heard today is that there is certainly support for Canada's most decorated soldier of World War I and a true hero of this country.

The point was brought up that other people have been discounted. That is not the intent of this motion. The intent is not to discount other heroes like Billy Bishop whom I consider to be a hero as well. I would welcome an amendment to include all air aces. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

As a nation it is an indication of our maturity to start recognizing the true Canadians and heroes who have risked their lives and have made contributions to this country. This generation has a renewed interest in learning about Canada's history. We had almost thrown that out the window as well in terms of history.

Lieutenant Colonel William Barker played a large part in Canadian history. There is something really wrong when other countries of the world know who our significant Canadians and Canadian heroes are and we in this country do not. It was brought up numerous times that there are many people to recognize in this great country of Canada.

There is Dr. Norman Bethune who is known better in China for his contributions to that country. If it was not for another television production, Canadians would not know who he was.

I just came back from a parliamentary exchange trip to Taiwan and did I make a discovery. I found out that we have another Canadian hero who has made immense contributions to the country of Taiwan. His name is Dr. George MacKay from Oxford county in Ontario. It was Dr. MacKay who started the school system, the medical system and the agricultural system. He had a huge influence in the development of that country. Does anybody in this country know who he is? I do not think so.

On May 13 of this year the town and the RM of Dauphin, Manitoba at least took the first step to formally recognize Lieutenant Colonel William Barker. The regional airport was dedicated and renamed in his honour. We were fortunate on May 13 that after the ceremony the famous Canadian Snowbirds, and we all know who the Snowbirds are, dedicated their air show in his honour. I know from the ceremony the air force holds Lieutenant Colonel Barker in high regard and always has. The three grandsons and one great-grandson of the late Lieutenant Colonel William Barker were in attendance at the ceremony.

I really do not want to take up much more time. This is long overdue. Canada needs to grow up and recognize all people who have contributed not only to the development of this country but to many countries around the world.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if I can get unanimous consent to rise on debate for about 30 seconds in order to move an amendment to the motion before the House?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington has, as the House knows, spoken to the motion. Because the original mover of the motion had the right of reply, technically the debate on this motion has ended.

In order to have a motion moved, it would be moved on debate. The member for Wentworth—Burlington is asking that the time for debate be extended and that the member be recognized on debate for the purposes of moving an amendment to the motion. He will be finished within 30 seconds to one minute.

Does the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington have the unanimous consent of the House for this purpose?

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Unanimous consent is not forthcoming.

There being no further members rising for debate and the motion not being designated as a votable item, the time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on May 8, I asked the Liberal government to support my motion before the industry committee to hold hearings into the impact of the bank mergers on small business, consumers and rural Canada. The minister misunderstood my question, believing it was a private member's motion.

There is a new math in Canada. It is the math of mergers. It is not the math we learned when I went to school. In this math the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the big get bigger, the small get smaller, the centre gets the cream and the regions get overlooked. Here is what it adds up to for the people in my riding.

Of the 42 bank branches in Regina, 33 belong to one of the merger partners. Customers and employees can read the writing on the wall and it is not good news.

Lesson number one in the math of mergers is bank branches. The Royal Bank has nine branches in Regina and the Bank of Montreal has eight. Will the new bank really keep 17 branches in Regina open? Will the second megabank really keep 16 branches open? I think not.

These are the questions people are asking. In the math of mergers, 9 plus 8 will not equal 17 branches and the CIBC and TD merger of 9 plus 7 will not equal 16 branches. When some of those branches close, jobs will go with them.

Lesson number two in the math of mergers is executive's salaries. Look at the salaries of top 19 executives of the 4 banks that want to merge. They have combined salaries and bonuses of almost $50 million and unexercised share option gains worth almost $222 million. That is a total pay package for 19 people of over a quarter of a billion dollars. In the math of mergers, that would also pay the salary of 10,000 bank tellers.

Here is the catch. When the bank executives negotiate the mergers, the market goes up and the value of their unexercised stock options goes up. Once the mergers are approved, the tellers lose their jobs.

Lesson number three in the math of mergers is bank profits. The banks say they need to merge to become profitable and compete in the global marketplace. The last week's second quarter earnings report show they are certainly already profitable. Earnings increased 15% at the Royal Bank, 19% at the Bank of Montreal and 28% at TD. Meanwhile depositors get dinged with one service charge hike after another.

I should mention there was a year about 10 years ago when the Royal Bank as a corporation actually paid less tax than one of its tellers.

Lesson number four in the math of mergers is fewer banks equal more consumer choice, or at least some people like the C.D. Howe Institute today are trying to make that argument.

The Bank of Montreal has even written me a letter making more or less the same promise, but CIBC chair Al Flood was a little more frank with the Toronto Star editorial board. He said last Wednesday: “We've got more consumer choice and corporate choice if we leave it the way it is, but I think it's too late for that”.

The NDP is the only party saying that the bankers' math does not add up. You do not cut the number of banks without risking the number of branches and the number of jobs. You do not build incentives for bank executives to hike their salaries with mergers and expect them not to take the opportunity. You do not get more consumer choice with fewer banks.

Opposition to the bank mergers among small businesses and consumers in Saskatchewan is growing every day. The provincial government is taking steps to strengthen our credit unions so they can step in to fill some of the void in rural Saskatchewan.

The bankers' math does not add up and Canadians are going to want a thorough audit. That is why the NDP has been pushing for immediate hearings with all five political parties into the impact the bank mergers will have on Canadians. We are sorry the government and the other parties do not share that sense of urgency.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, the announcements by the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal and subsequently by the CIBC and TD of their intentions to merge have changed the potential landscape of the financial sector in Canada, as referred to by my hon. colleague opposite.

These mergers, however, will not proceed without the approval of the Minister of Finance and not unless the government is convinced of the benefits to Canadians.

The government is concerned about the level of competition in the financial services sector. It is concerned about the impact of potential mergers on access to services by Canadians and possible implications for employment. Consumers, in particular those in rural areas, have expressed concerns about the possibility of reduced choice or higher fees as a result of these mergers. Small businesses are also concerned with the potential loss of face to face contact with their bankers if branches are closed.

The Minister of Finance will consider the advice of the director of the competition bureau, the office of the superintendent of financial institutions and of the task force on the future of financial institutions in determining whether to allow any merger in the banking sector to occur.

I assure the hon. member and all members of the House that Canadians will be involved in this very important process. Public consultations will be held to give Canadians the opportunity to express their views before any decision is made on these mergers. The hon. member has the opportunity to participate in that debate.

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on May 13, I wrote the minister of immigration a letter and on May 14, I asked a question in the House with regard to a gentleman in Vancouver named Mr. Iraz Rezaei who runs an immigration consulting firm and who is facing 18 criminal charges for the way he conducts his business. The charges against Mr. Rezaei are eight counts of forgery with passports, six counts of attempted organized illegal entry into Canada, two counts of counselling false refugee claims, one count of threatening and one count of assault.

When I asked the minister the question in the House her answer was the normal one she gives, that she does not talk about specific details of any individual case. This was not a case. This was an individual breaking the law in Canada and who is now using the Internet to expand his business. He is sort of laughing at us with the negative publicity he is getting. He is saying it has actually increased his business.

The minister also wrote me a letter. Amazingly enough, I received it today. It is dated May 25 but it arrived today. Once again the minister says she will not talk about the case because it is a criminal case, that he is innocent until proven guilty and that they are not going to do anything. As the minister knows, if a lawyer were charged with such offences that lawyer would be suspended during the investigation. Yet this man is allowed to continue doing his business. That is because there is no regulatory body.

The minister's letter states: “You are likely aware that there are currently no regulatory bodies or regulations governing immigration consultants and that CIC officials are currently examining the very complex issue of how best to encourage competency and integrity in persons who represent our clients”, the people who come to Canada as immigrants or refugees. She states: “Officials will be presenting options on how to address this very important issue in the near future”.

The near future is not good enough. We have been looking at the near future in this department for years and years. The minister also said: “I am sure you can understand that, due to Canada's privacy legislation and because the case is before the courts, no further comment would be appropriate”.

The privacy legislation in Canada was not brought in to protect criminals, those who violate the laws of Canada. It is right in the act that for the Canadian good ministers can go around the Privacy Act. Certainly with a gentleman like this, with all these charges against him, with what is happening in his business, with the demand of the people in the city of Vancouver and the province of British Columbia, the minister should give us the full details concerning this case.

While negotiations are going on with the provinces on this issue, the minister should tell Canadians that her department will not deal with immigration consultants, period, until the licensing issue is solved. Let us put them right out of business until they have licences and until there is a body that can govern what they do.

Innocent people are coming to Canada. The federal government immigration office is in downtown Vancouver. That is where people get sworn in to become citizens and where they go for interviews. It is a very nice building with all the typical government signage on it, welcome to Canada. Right across the street is this gentleman's business. It has big signs in every language “free immigration consultant”. We all know he is not in business for free.

I know Vancouver like the back of my hand but there are those just coming to Canada, a strange country for them. A new citizen or a refugee may come to this country and be told at the airport to go downtown. He will see this sign across the street that says free help. Looks nice and warm. It has his own language written on the sign. He will tend to walk in there before he goes in to see those big government guys. They are not used to free governments like ours. They are not used to officials who work to the benefit of those who are trying to come here. They get sucked into this man's office. He is there. He sucks them in. He finds out where their money is and he is making lots of money. It is time the minister acted.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to answer the question of my colleague from West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast.

The Immigration Act provides for the removal from Canada of any foreign national found guilty of serious criminal activity. I think that is pretty clear. Any person facing charges in Canada's judicial system is however presumed innocent until proven guilty. In any instance where an individual has been convicted of a serious offence under the Criminal Code departmental officials monitor the case to ensure that enforcement action is taken when warranted.

At present there are currently no regulatory bodies, as the hon. member mentioned, or regulations governing immigration consultants. Citizenship and Immigration Canada officials are currently examining the very complex issue of how to best encourage competency and integrity in persons who represent immigrants or refugees.

In view of the fact that this is an area involving provincial jurisdiction, departmental officials have been in contact with provincial authorities. In addition, departmental officials have been consulting with other federal authorities as well as with the legal community.

The issue of immigration consultants has also been a subject of discussion during the recent legislation review consultation. Subsequent to these consultations departmental officials will be presenting the minister with options on ways to address this important issue directly.

While I understand that the hon. member does not agree, we still have to abide by the Privacy Act. With regard to charges brought against specific individuals, I am still unable to discuss details of any specific case in public.

I agree with the hon. member that it is an issue which has to be addressed. As I have previously stated it is provincial jurisdiction, not just federal. It needs to be addressed across the country and negotiated with all provinces. This is what the department is attempting to do as we speak.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a whole stack of reports has documented what too many Canadians already know as a daily reality. Poverty is increasing in Canada.

The latest report of the National Council of Welfare paints a devastating picture similar to other reports from Campaign 2000, the Canadian Council on Social Development and the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

I have raised this serious matter many times in the House and pointed out that while the Minister of Finance talks about growing economic optimism millions of Canadians are desperate as a result of high unemployment, low wages and lower welfare rates.

Cuts to social assistance, education, health care and EI only make matters worse. The information from the National Council of Welfare report is a condemnation of the government's record. It shows that the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. Three billion dollars have been slashed since 1996 and poor people are paying the price. Some 5.2 million Canadians are living below the poverty line. They stand in food line-ups, homeless and raising kids on welfare that keeps them in poverty.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission has drawn attention to this government made travesty. The chief commissioner pointed out in her 1997 annual report that the Canadian Human Rights Act made no mention of poverty and did not include social condition as a prohibited ground of discrimination. She went on to say that in the broader context poverty was a serious breach of equality rights which she believed had no place in a country as prosperous as ours.

Also she said that it was difficult to argue that poverty was not a human rights issue given the devastating impact it had on people's lives and that we must not forget that article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated that everyone had a right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and his family including food, clothing, housing, medical care and necessary social services.

I have introduced a motion in the House that would amend the Canadian Human Rights Act to include social conditions as a grounds for being prohibited from discrimination.

Will the government take action to reduce poverty by setting targets that are achievable? Will the government admit that the too often announced child tax benefit falls far short of being an anti-poverty strategy? It eliminates the benefit to families on welfare. It is not indexed. It has more to do with keeping wages low and unemployment high.

All this is taking place in an environment of media and political attacks on the poor. Just last week the Reform Party member at the human resource development committee launched into an attack against poor people.

We need political leadership from the government and all political parties to agree that unemployment and poverty are serious matters crying out for change in government policies.

We need a fair taxation system. We need proper income distribution. We need corporations to pay the billions of dollars in deferred income taxes. We need the government to restore our social programs. We need to set targets to aggressively reduce unemployment and poverty.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, in reply to my hon. colleague, the government is very concerned about the situation of low income Canadians. We are particularly sensitive to the situation faced by some of our children and youth.

In the February 1997 budget the government committed $850 million to create an enriched child tax benefit. This new investment will give much needed support to the 1.4 million Canadian families and will help more than 2.5 million Canadian children.

In the February 1998 budget the government committed another $850 million investment over the course of our current mandate fulfilling its promise made to Canadians. This will bring the total Government of Canada investment into the well-being of our children to almost $7 billion per year.

The government's commitment to provide more income support for low income families will enable our provincial and territorial partners to redirect savings into social assistance. Those savings can go into complementary programs and services with the goal of helping welfare parents become fully employed. This is the basis for the national child benefit system.

Building on this co-operation, last January the government agreed to work with the provinces and territories to develop the national children's agenda. It will be a broad comprehensive strategy to address the important needs of Canada's children, especially those in particular need facing poverty.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.16 p.m.)