House of Commons Hansard #117 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was wheat.

Topics

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion at this time?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, after that interruption I will try to resume where I left off.

I regret that the issue we are now debating is tied into redefining the word spouse in law. If we go as far back as when Mr. Trudeau, the icon of Liberal ideology, introduced the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada he specifically and quite clearly chose to leave out of the charter the whole subject of sexual orientation. The intent of the law that he introduced was extremely clear. On top of that, on a number of occasions parliament chose to support the existing definitions of spouse and marriage.

The intent of parliament when it comes to the law was extremely clear. The former minister of justice and the current minister of justice have clearly expressed their support for the existing definition of spouse.

That is why we chose this case on which to raise the issue of judicial activism. While I support and respect the wisdom of the courts and the wisdom of the judges, that is the exact role given to them when the charter was introduced. They were to examine very carefully every issue that came before them in light of the charter and to make recommendations to parliament if in their view the issue before them did not comply with the charter.

Nowhere—and I have heard this over and over again in the debate today—was the court given the mandate or the instruction to write into the Charter of Rights and Freedoms issues that were clearly contrary to the will of parliament. That is the basis of what we are debating today.

All kinds of strawmen have been thrown up over the issue to try to deflect the argument away from what we are talking about and to try to imply some ulterior motive which does not exist.

I was amazed at the outrageous comments the member for Mississauga West made, suggesting somehow that it would be truly dangerous to the country and to our system of democracy to give the supreme power to the elected parliament in this country. That amazes me. How can it be dangerous to invest the supreme power in an elected body that is accountable to the people every four or five years but yet it is not dangerous to allow that power to exist in an unelected, unaccountable small group of individuals? I simply do not understand the reasoning there at all.

SupplyGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 6.30 p.m., it is my duty to inform the House that proceedings on the motion have expired. Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the House will now proceed to consideration of orders of the day.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

There are two motions in amendment on the Notice Paper for the report stage of Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education.

Motion No. 1 will be debated and voted on separately.

Motion No. 2 will be debated and voted on separately.

I will now put Motion No. 1 to the House.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-30, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 24 to 28 on page 2 with the following:

“7. (1) A community shall, as far as possible, provide or make provision for primary, elementary and secondary educational programs and services for members of the community, wherever they reside in Nova Scotia.”

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-30 before us was referred, of course, to committee. Unfortunately, in committee, we were not completely ready to introduce certain amendments. The discussions had to be reread. Finally, after talks with the Nova Scotia chiefs, it was agreed to introduce the amendment before us today.

I would point out that there is a difference between the bill as written and the amendment now before us. The difference is this: following an agreement with the Mi'kmaq, the bill provided that all education services on Mi'kmaq reserves in Nova Scotia were to be solely for residents of the reserve.

I put a few questions to the officials who appeared before the committee and discovered that it was limited to those on the reserve solely for monetary reasons. I decided to see if the services could not be extended to all Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq.

There is a major problem in Canada right now concerning off-reserve Indians. There is a frequent tendency towards this sort of agreement entitling those on the reserve to certain services. Now, almost 40% and even 50% of status Indians live off-reserve. These people are being told they will not be entitled to services.

I became aware of the problem several years ago, and this is perhaps the first time there has been a really specific example, a bill that excludes off-reserve Indians.

Members need to understand why people do not live on a reserve. Often, it is not by choice. Right now, for example, there is a terrible lack of housing on reserves. On certain reserves we visited, it was not unusual to see two or three generations, 15 or 16 individuals, living under the same roof. There are limits to overcrowding. Since the limit is often reached, these people are forced to leave the reserve and live elsewhere.

I think, however, that the government has certain responsibilities with respect to these people. The government's approach to off-reserve Indians is unfortunate. It is not even the same minister defending their interests. Given that the government has a fiduciary responsibility for the aboriginal peoples, a terrible injustice is being done to the people who live off reserve. It is important to expand educational services to the Mi'kmaq living off reserve as well.

We have before us an agreement signed by some ten communities—four have yet to sign—and of these ten communities that have signed, there are probably 3,000, 4,000 or 5,000 people living off reserve in Nova Scotia unable to take advantage of the educational services to be given the Mi'kmaq.

As I was saying, this has become very important to me in recent years and this is the first specific application I have had to demonstrate it. I am sure the head of the alliance of natives living off reserve would support the proposal before us. I invite all my colleagues in the House to do the same.

There is an impact, however. If there were no amendment to the agreement before us, $150 million would be given to the people living on Mi'kmaq reserves. With the amendment, we are asking the government to improve the agreement. This agreement, worth an estimated $150 million, could be valued as high as $200 million, because it is important that we treat all status aboriginals with a valid card equitably.

As I was saying earlier, it is not because people want absolutely to live off reserve. On the contrary, people consider this new agreement, the new bill under consideration, provides an extraordinary opportunity to take control of education. God knows how important education is in a society. It is education which makes it possible to teach the culture and the language.

Aboriginal people are increasingly concerned about cultural and language issues, and developing language skills is an extension of their culture. This is important in today's context, after nearly a decade of denial of their jurisdiction over cultural and linguistic matters.

The government must not seize this opportunity to vote in favour of the amendment, without giving an inch on the matter of the $150 million, because doing so would just add to the services to be delivered by the Mi'kmaq and would of course take away from service quality. The regulations and the agreement have $150 million set aside for them. This must not be an excuse for letting another 5,000 or 6,000 Mi'kmaq join the agreement without changing the budget provided in the original agreement.

To me, it is obvious that this change must lead to enhancement of the agreement. As I have already said, I invite my hon. colleagues to solve the problems of those living off reserve for once and for all.

We must avoid clauses that say that on reserve aboriginals are included, but there are no longer any obligations toward those who have left. Where are these obligations? Where are the people who have left? Sometimes they move to other communities, but sometimes they simply end up on the street. I am told that half of Ontario's aboriginal people are in Toronto, and in some cases are among Toronto's homeless.

Municipal and federal governments therefore have to deal with them. I think that the federal government's fiduciary duty should include everyone.

It is too bad that the government makes a distinction and that on reserve and off reserve Indians are not looked after by the same minister. In my view, this is a clear indication that the government wants to be relieved of its fiduciary obligation towards Indians. This is not right.

I think it had a chance, with this bill, to introduce a motion to attempt to correct just one aspect, that of education for the Mi'kmaq. This form of discrimination seems to crop up everywhere. But when there is a opportunity like the one today to eliminate discrimination by ensuring that there is a bill that covers them all, I think it should be seized.

On reserve Indians, who are often represented by the Assembly of first nations, often tell themselves that they must at least hang on to part of the pie. What often happens is that, once these decisions are taken, off reserve Indians are simply forgotten; they are not entitled to the same services as the others and end up being discriminated against all the time.

I therefore urge the government to truly fulfil its fiduciary role toward all status Indians who are normally covered by the legislation, but who, because their place of residence is different, are told that their rights will be ignored and that they are not entitled to the same services as the others.

The purpose of the amendment before us is to correct this situation, and I urge my colleagues to vote in favour of the motion.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

6:40 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I rise this evening to speak against the amendment by the member for Saint-Jean which is phrased in Motion No. 1. I suggest that this motion not be accepted.

It seems that Bill C-30 is an historic piece of legislation that returns control over education to the Mi'kmaq First Nations in Nova Scotia. Bill C-30 has great support among first nations, the province of Nova Scotia, educational institutions in Nova Scotia and strong support of many members of this House. The Mi'kmaq people wish this legislation will pass quickly so they may begin to develop education programming for their people.

Members should be aware that this motion as it is put by the member for Saint-Jean deals with the issue of education off reserve. As such, it is encroaching on provincial constitutional jurisdiction for education throughout Nova Scotia. We on this side of the House believe that we should not impose federal legislation as an intrusion into an area of provincial jurisdiction without significant consultations with the Mi'kmaq and with the Government of Nova Scotia.

The issue of off reserve education must be dealt with in negotiations with other parties. It cannot be unilaterally imposed in federal legislation. Moreover, we cannot agree with the proposed amendment as it is contrary to what was negotiated in the agreement with the Mi'kmaq and with Nova Scotia. Accepting the amendment proposed by the hon. member would require the renegotiation of the agreement. First nations are not funded to provide programs and services to members wherever they reside off reserve. As such, it would impose a difficult burden on Mi'kmaq First Nations to provide such services.

The participating Mi'kmaq First Nations want to proceed with their preparations to restore education jurisdiction to their communities. I urge all members not to support this amendment, but to move ahead with the bill as it was supported by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

6:45 p.m.

Reform

Mike Scott Reform Skeena, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak against the motions put forward by the Bloc Quebecois, and the reason that I will be speaking against these motions is because they fundamentally do not change the principle of the bill. It is the principle of the bill which the Reform Party has great difficulty with.

Behind the principle of the bill is the notion that aboriginal or other people require separate, exclusionary education in order to be successful in life. When the federal government brings forward legislation like this, what is the government saying? Is it saying that the Mi'kmaq children cannot obtain a proper education in the public school system? If that is what it is saying, then indeed we are all in trouble because the public school system is the system that provides an education for most Canadian children. If that system is failing in any way, we had better know about it and we had better deal with it right now for the good of the future of our nation.

I know that the public school system certainly has its shortcomings, but if the education system is by and large delivering a product that is acceptable in terms of the success rate of students going through the system, then why indeed look at a separate, exclusionary educational system for Mi'kmaq children?

I submit that the entire philosophical foundation upon which this bill is formulated is wrong. It is divisive and it presupposes that Canadians cannot work together, be educated together and coexist in an environment of peaceful co-operation. It presupposes that we have to divide ourselves and further divide ourselves as Canadians into groups and subgroups in order to get ahead. I submit that is a very wrongheaded and in the long run a very divisive and indeed destructive philosophy.

I am perhaps most disturbed, though, by the aspect of this initiative which I call the potential for a misapplication of scarce public funds. Scarce public funds refers to that great pot of money that the finance minister collects every year from Canadians, the taxpayers' contributions to the federation. The idea is that the federal government has unlimited money to put into education or into anything. Of course we have all come to understand differently over the last few years that government resources are limited and indeed we have found out just how limited because we have been living well beyond our means for so long that it has caught up to us and virtually every Canadian is feeling the pinch. We have very limited resources to be applying toward education.

I will give the House some facts. They come right from the department of Indian affairs, lest anyone think I am making them up. The department gave us a briefing a few short months ago to advise us of what a wonderful job it was doing in managing the affairs of aboriginal people in Canada. Officials of the department talked about this wonderful educational budget they have and the fact that it was being used to provide an education service in aboriginal communities across Canada.

In most non-aboriginal communities the cost of educating one child per year in the elementary and secondary school systems is about $7,000. It varies by province and it varies by region, but in general we can take that number as a fairly safe estimate of what it costs to educate one Canadian child in the regular public school system on an annual basis.

The records of the department of Indian affairs show that it is spending approximately $20,000, which is about three times as much for every aboriginal child in the separate aboriginal school system. I and many would argue that the success rate of this separate educational system is far from sterling. It is very obvious when more aboriginal youth in this country go to jail than to university that something is wrong. It is very obvious when the proportion of aboriginal youth who actually finish grade 12 is far less than it is in the non-aboriginal population that something is really wrong.

I could not for the life of me understand how so much money could be going into a system when the results coming out at the other end were so dismal.

I had the occasion a few years ago to visit a small school on a rural countryside reserve in British Columbia. I want to tell all members what I found there. I was invited by the then chief and one of the counsellors. They were quite proud of this school, and rightly so. It was a beautiful building. It was new and I could understand their sense of pride.

The building was virtually new. I do not know what the cost of it was, but I would venture to guess it was well over $1 million. It was for a group of 11 children. The reason for that is that most of the parents of the children in that community had already voted with their feet and had sent their children to the regular public school system because they felt their children had a much better chance of getting a good education in the regular school system than they did in this special aboriginal only school system.

Let me tell the House what else I found. For these 11 children there were two teachers, full time I presume, and a clerk working behind the desk who greeted visitors and who, I assume, did other clerical duties. So there were three full time, paid staff. On top of that there was a school board comprised of eight school board members, all receiving an annual remuneration for being school board members. There was also a chairman of the board who, I assume, received remuneration for being a school board member as well as chairman.

This was an extremely expensive school and school board set up for the benefit of educating 11 children of various ages. One could imagine how difficult it might have been for the teachers in that environment to focus on the children properly when the range in ages was so great. This is an absolute fact. This exists today in British Columbia.

If we find this in one circumstance and we look at the department of Indian affairs' own numbers and see that it is spending three times as much on aboriginal children's education as the regular public school system is spending, the results speak for themselves in terms of the attainment of those students. Something is horribly wrong with the picture.

I would submit and the Reform Party would submit that we are not going to address the problem by measures such as those which are in the bill before us. For that very reason we cannot support the philosophical underpinnings of this bill or the cost of it. The fact is that the whole concept of aboriginal only, exclusionary education has not succeeded in delivering a product. For all these reasons we cannot support this bill and we cannot support the amendments because they do not change the principle of the bill. I am thankful for the opportunity to present my views on this bill and I look forward to hearing what other members have to say.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

6:55 p.m.

NDP

Gordon Earle NDP Halifax West, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity this evening to address Bill C-30 at report stage. Bill C-30 is an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education. This bill would transfer jurisdiction for the education of band members to nine Mi'kmaq bands in my home province of Nova Scotia.

Chief Lindsay Marshall of the Chapel Island Band and chairman of Mi'kmaq Kina'matnewey education stated to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development: “Jurisdiction of education is a basic right that is enjoyed by all Canadians and a right that our Mi'kmaq nation has not exercised since the time of colonization of this country, 500 years ago”.

This bill sets out to undo that injustice and to place far greater control over education at the community level.

Motion No. 1 reads, in part, as follows:

A community shall, as far as possible, provide or make provisions for primary, elementary and secondary educational programs and services for members of the community, wherever they reside in Nova Scotia.

This is an attempt to make sure that Mi'kmaq people, regardless of where they reside in Nova Scotia, will benefit from this transfer of educational jurisdiction.

As my hon. colleague from the Bloc Quebecois mentioned, we did hear concerns expressed by some Mi'kmaq presenters who appeared before the committee about this concept of dividing the community.

One presenter made a very clear presentation around the fact that quite often certain members of the community may not live right on the reserve, either because of housing, as has been mentioned, or perhaps because of job opportunities or other reasons beyond their control. Yet they are as much Mi'kmaq off reserve as they are on reserve. It was felt that the bill in its present format tended to divide the community and that therefore this kind of amendment would go a long way in showing that there is cohesion among the Mi'kmaq people and that, regardless of where the person resides, they should have access to the opportunities to maintain their culture, to have control over their education and to benefit from the educational system which would apply with this transfer of jurisdiction.

Members opposite have mentioned that there is some concern about moving ahead with this motion because there is now great support among the aboriginal people of Nova Scotia for this bill. Indeed there is. There is a lot of excitement in the air. There is a lot of anticipation and people want to get on with the job. We certainly do not want to hold up the legislation.

However, by the same token it is very important to consider the fact that a community must not be divided artificially, and we should not become overly concerned about the cost and the jurisdictional question because this has been a longstanding problem that aboriginal people have faced for years, the question of whether they can have access to a certain service.

Quite often they have found themselves bounced back and forth between federal and provincial jurisdiction. Some people have been told “You are aboriginal and that comes under the federal government”. Then they go to the federal government and hear “You are living off reserve and that service comes under the province. You should go there”. Quite often aboriginal people have found themselves in no man's land in terms of getting the same benefits that other Canadians would normally access.

We should not become overly concerned about that because reasonable people can work out ways of resolving those issues. I am sure the federal and provincial governments could work out a way whereby if aboriginals living off reserve want to access a program that is on reserve there could be a way of working that out to everyone's satisfaction. Where there is a will there is a way.

I am very supportive of this motion because I feel that it gives the bill the kind of thrust the aboriginal people want to have in terms of providing a unified community.

We have heard a lot of talk from the Reform Party about setting up a separate educational system being undesirable. I find it quite astonishing to hear that kind of talk because when we look at it, this is in fact what has been done from the time the federal government first created the Indian Act. It set up a system that has failed. The residential schools are a prime example of the failure of the non-aboriginal society to deal appropriately and fairly with our aboriginal citizens.

Why now, all of a sudden when aboriginal people would like to take charge of their own destiny, is there some great concern that we are setting up something separate and something different that is going to cause some harm? Certainly no more harm can be done than the harm that was caused over the years.

Now it is time, I would submit, for a positive change. We are on the brink of that change. We ought not to let any fearmongering and concern about this difference deter us from the goal of allowing people to take charge of their own destiny and their own future.

We hear talk about the cost. The hon. member from the Reform Party mentioned that it is costing three times as much to educate an aboriginal child in the current system than it is for someone in the public school system. He said that something is wrong, and I agree that something is wrong. What is wrong is that with the figures he is using and the comparison he is making, he is talking about the management of the educational system by the department of Indian affairs.

In Nova Scotia we are talking about something different. We are talking about transferring the ownership and the authority and the responsibility to the Mi'kmaq people themselves. We are not talking about continuing the department of Indian affairs administration.

The hon. member and the Reform Party has made a very strong argument in favour of the bill because they can see the mess that has been made by the department over the years. Now we want to move ahead to something more positive.

We should look at this in a very positive way. Certainly if the hon. members in this House want to move ahead on a new dawn in terms of what can happen for aboriginal people in Canada, we would support this bill wholeheartedly. We would look seriously at supporting the amendment to enable communities to remain together, undivided, so that they can overcome whatever difficulties they have in terms of living on the reserve or off the reserve.

This is a very important piece of legislation. We must not be sidetracked by any erroneous arguments around cost. I have said before in the House that many times we get sidetracked when we start looking at cost. We should be looking at what is right to do for our fellow human beings, for our fellow citizens and move ahead on that premise and not be sidetracked by drawing figures and comparisons here, there and everywhere.

Let us look at the reality of what this means to the people, to the children. We are talking more about culture. We are talking about maintaining language. We see that over the years the aboriginal people have been robbed of their language. They have been robbed of their culture. They have been robbed of their identity. Hence the reason for the low self-esteem and lack of achievement.

This bill can move people forward with a sense of self-worth, a sense of control of their destiny. It can give them the meaningful life they need to move ahead in the future. This is what we should be working toward.

I am pleased to support the motion by my hon. colleague from the Bloc Quebecois.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, this is an historic piece of legislation that delegates jurisdiction over education to the Mi'kmaq people through the Mi'kmaq education corporation. Nine of the thirteen Mi'kmaq bands in Nova Scotia support this legislation. The others have the option of joining later and are waiting to see how well this process works.

The Progressive Conservative Party supports self-government. This is seen as a step in that direction.

However, on the amendment from the hon. member for Saint-Jean with whom I have the pleasure of sitting in committee and always listen very closely to his words and comments, all that aside, I would still like to say how it is very difficult for me to support his amendment. I understand it was put forth in good faith but the Conservative Party cannot support the amendment. The reason we cannot support the amendment is similar to that of the hon. member for Halifax West in the New Democratic Party who said we do not have to worry about the cost. We do have to worry about the cost. What is more important is the Mi'kmaq nation of Nova Scotia has to worry about the cost.

We have a framework agreement that was negotiated among the bands of the province of Nova Scotia. That framework agreement has precedence over the bill itself. Within the framework agreement it was agreed to try this process for a period of three to five years and then look at the process.

The problem with this specific amendment is that it would require the reserve's goals to provide education programs and services to those living off reserve. It cuts in on provincial jurisdiction as the hon. member on the opposite side has already mentioned. More important, it is not in the framework agreement. It would place an administrative and financial burden on the schools that have agreed to opt in to the agreement.

At the same time and the thing we should not forget in the House is that at the end of the five year agreement we will have the opportunity to review this. The other bands in Nova Scotia will have the opportunity for a review and to look at it. At that time if we can afford the cost, it is possible to include the on reserve Mi'kmaq along with the reserve natives.

If we try to do this unilaterally the problem is that no cost estimates have been done. In many instances it may only be a matter of a quarter of a mile or kilometre or less. In other instances it could be a matter of busing children 15, 20 or 30 kilometres and there may not be the amount of students to make that a cost saving or a responsible measure.

Although I recognize the reason the amendment was put forth, the Conservative Party cannot support that amendment.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to order adopted earlier today, the question on the motion in Group No. 1 is deemed to have been put and a recorded division is deemed to have been demanded and deferred.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

moved:

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-30 be amended by adding after line 30 on page 4 the following new Clause:

“12.1 No later than three years after the coming into force of all the provisions of this Act, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development shall convene a conference composed of the signatories of the Agreement in order to determine whether this Act should be converted into a treaty within the meaning of section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Mi'Kmaq Education ActGovernment Orders

7:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to the order made earlier today, the question on the motion in Group No. 2 is deemed to have been put, and the recorded division is deemed to have been demanded and deferred until Tuesday, June 9, 1998, at the end of Government Orders.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill S-9, an act respecting depository bills and depository notes and to amend the Financial Administration Act, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Depository Bills And Notes ActGovernment Orders

7:10 p.m.

Northumberland Ontario

Liberal

Christine Stewart Liberalfor the Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)

moved that the bill be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to)

Depository Bills And Notes ActGovernment Orders

7:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

When shall the bill be read the third time? By leave, now?

Depository Bills And Notes ActGovernment Orders

7:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.