House of Commons Hansard #117 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was wheat.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Grant McNally Reform Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am quite amazed that my hon. colleague states that the courts do not limit parliament. In fact, I think she well knows, as we all do, that when a decision is rendered by a court that decision has an impact. It sets a precedent for future decisions. For us to ignore that fact is irresponsible.

This was an Ontario appeal court ruling. The justice minister is not even willing to take the next step to appeal it to the highest court in the land, the supreme court.

The member stated that these types of cases should be appealed to the supreme court only if they are very important cases. I would ask her whether she thinks the definition of marriage is not an important issue. A lot of people in this country are looking for direction from this government and wanting to know exactly where they stand on that particular point. The fact is that the judiciary, in this particular case and in others, is reading in new meaning to the law. If that is the case, does this member agree that should continue, that a group of individuals should decide what is best for individuals in this country?

As the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism stated, it is the tyranny of the majority. That is quite a shocking statement.

I wonder what her response would be to those two questions.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his questions. It simply reinforces what I said in the past and what I will continue to say, which is that in that party and in those quarters there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the system, of the charter of rights and freedoms and of our Constitution which is the highest law in the land.

Let me say that I do support the courts in their ongoing mandate to uphold the rights and the freedoms of all Canadians, including minority rights.

The member specifically referred to the Rosenberg decision. Then he talked about marriage. Rosenberg has nothing to do with marriage.

Let me ask the hon. member and his stern faced colleagues over there this question rhetorically. By extending these rights to the people involved in the Rosenberg decision, by allowing two people who care for one another to take care of one another in a living situation, how does that detract from them and their style of life?

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Reform

Jim Pankiw Reform Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have two questions for the hon. member.

First, in her speech she said that members of the Reform Party on the one hand were opposed to this judge's decision, but on the other hand, if the judiciary decides that Bill C-68 is unconstitutional, we will support that. Does she not see the difference between a judge ruling whether a law is constitutional and a judge inserting words and rewriting legislation that should be the sole responsibility of parliament? Does she not see the difference? Clearly, if the judge's decision in this constitutional challenge of Bill C-68 is to rewrite and change the law, we would be opposed to that. That is not the job of a judge.

Second, the hon. member and many of her Liberal colleagues are saying that this is discriminatory stuff. I have an April 29, 1998 letter from the Minister of Justice in which she says that a marriage is a union of persons of the opposite sex and that the justice department will continue to defend this concept of marriage in court. Does she think that her justice minister is prejudiced? Because that is the same position we are taking.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. I do not view this as stuff. I view this as an important issue in our constitutional history and an important issue to be debated here.

Let me say that if the justice minister asked me for my opinion, my view is that we should not appeal Rosenberg. I believe it is the view of many of my colleagues on this high side of the House that we should not appeal it. Quite frankly, I do not think it has anything to do with whatever fears the hon. member may be expressing implicitly in his statements.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Reform

Gerry Ritz Reform Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise today with pleasure to speak on behalf of the constituents of Battlefords—Lloydminister on the motion that my colleague from Calgary Centre has placed before this House.

I would like to take a moment to clarify something. The member for Windsor—St. Clair read a motion in her debate and it certainly is not what we are proposing today. Our motion states:

That, in the opinion of this House, federal legislation should not be altered by judicial rulings, as happened in the redefinition of the term “spouse” in the Rosenberg decision, and that, accordingly, the government should immediately (repeal) that decision.

That is what our motion reads today; not the one that she came up with.

I believe that all duly elected members of this legislature can see the logic in the first part of the motion. We are sent here by the voters of our respective ridings to represent their wishes in this House and we all go through a lot of trouble to get here. Occasionally we disagree on how to reflect those wishes, but when we come up with legislation we expect that it is the best that can be written and passed, once again by a majority of votes, and that it will be acceptable to a majority of our electorate.

If we want to continue to fight against what we see to be bad legislation, then we do so in public. Ultimately we stand for re-election based on what the voter sees as our view of that legislative program.

Of course, no law is perfect and for the purposes of reviewing those laws and testing their fairness we have a judicial branch whose job it is to uphold or strike down individual statutes. Judges at various levels are asked to interpret laws as well, but this means it is their job to define the meaning that the words contained in the statute were meant to have, and only the meaning.

Nowhere and at no time have judges ever been given the task of putting words in that are not there now. Not only are judges not elected by popular will, they are not chosen to write laws or to create public policy with the potential to affect millions of lives or dictate the expenditure of millions of taxpayers' dollars.

Revolutions have been fought over the issue of the people being taxed without representation, but in this country we seem willing to ignore history; if not blatantly, we re-write it and hand over authority to unelected individuals or groups who have their own narrow agenda as their driving force.

The case we cited as an example of judges overstepping their bounds involves the redefinition of spouse in the Income Tax Act, but it has implications for hundreds of other statutes and regulations as well. No doubt many commentators will read into this example that Reform is on its high horse about the sanctity of marriage and the restriction of family to certain approved forms to the exclusion of others. This is a complex issue and no one is suggesting here today that people should not be allowed to choose how they want to order their lives.

The issue is whether or not judges have the right to impose on all of society an interpretation of laws written by elected representatives—and I stress elected—and debated openly in our public forum here in this House. Where the interpretation involves adding words that were never included in the statutes in the first place is wrong. Canadians should be worried about this growing tendency of courts to re-write legislation on the fly and I would like to touch on some examples which have no doubt been brought up already today.

Professor Ted Morton of the University of Calgary relates how the Supreme Court of Canada struck down provisions in the Elections Act that prohibited prisoners from voting, and it did this not once but twice. In the first instance it disallowed a blanket prohibition which may have been unfair to the odd individual, but even after the act was amended to include only convicts serving two years or more the justices felt that it was unreasonable. The only thing unreasonable was the nonsense being perpetrated on law-abiding Canadian voters by these self-styled guardians of democracy.

As Professor Morton writes:

Giving prisoners the right to vote is not only bad policy but also bad law—. To allow those who break the law to make the law is an insult to all law-abiding citizens and devalues the meaning of citizenship. It is for this reason that there is no other nation where prisoners enjoy a constitutional right to vote.

At a time when we are struggling to instil in our next generation respect for the law and a sense of social and civic responsibility, the beliefs and actions of this unelected elite who supposedly represent the law itself are undermining all of our efforts and their status as well.

Another professor at the University of Western Ontario, Mr. Rob Martin, writes in a recent issue of Law Times that it was Justice Antonio Lamer who first invented the idea that judges could read in what they feel to be missing from legislation. In Dr. Martin's opinion, Justice Lamer has even suggested that he and his colleagues could fill in gaps in the Constitution, creating new institutions whenever they felt so inclined. A little overstepping their bounds.

It must be clear to even the most hardened sceptic that the practice of allowing judges to rewrite statutes, order public money spent and change the very meaning of our language to suit special interest agendas can only mean that parliament will become unnecessary.

Society at large will be subject to the whims of a handful of individuals meeting in private and handing down decisions without ever having to justify themselves or those decisions.

Of course this is a worst case scenario and aside from having lots of other institutions break down at the same time, one would also have to believe that the individuals on the various judicial benches all had some sort of evil intent. Far from it.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe that is the case here but let us also be clear that even good intentions can lead to bad policies and bad decisions. As the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and some of these judges just seem to want to get there and put in street lights and traffic signs while they can.

I have read where lawyers are complaining that they not longer have any idea what kind of decision is going to come out of a high court proceeding. Maybe this is an indication that justices have painted themselves into so many corners they cannot remember if they are half way through painting the floor black or half way through painting it white. These hints of confusion and disagreement among the justices may explain some of the recent decisions we have seen.

Look at the 1985 Singh decision or the more recent Halm decision that together create a massive bureaucracy to handle refugees. The irony is that according to Professor Morton, the UN had regarded Canada's immigration system as one of the world's best before the justices started to mess with the handling of refugees.

Now we have massive backlogs, $179 million in extra expense, millions going to a refugee industry run by lawyers, and thanks to another supreme court decision we are forced to treat convicted drug traffickers as choir boys. They are not guilty here yet.

I suppose since the immigration minister herself has apparently tossed the rulebook out the window regarding accepted convicted criminals, perhaps the justices felt it was time to rewrite the Immigration Act on behalf of Canadian people. We can see that prisoner voting and the extraordinary rights of convicted criminals as refugees in Canada form a pattern and the final piece of that puzzle was supplied last year in the Feeney decision. In that case a young man allegedly beat an old man to death and returned to his trailer to sleep off a drunken stupor.

The police had every reason to believe they had found their man and within the law as they understood it they could make an arrest. They had probable cause. Not so, said the justices. A warrant was necessary in that case although previously it had not been.

We are not talking here about innocent people caught up in an irresponsible system. It is not a question of presumed innocence being abused but of law officers on our streets and in our immigration system doing their jobs by the rules of law as set out by parliament, the legislators.

When our police cannot count on the rules, how can they expect the private citizen to respect and obey them? What tends to happen is that police are discouraged and frustrated to the point of taking matters into their own hands, leading to less liberty, not more.

I have a final word about Rosenberg. It is true that the Reform Party policy sets out that marriage exists as a union between a man and a woman and subsequently that spouse refers to the members of the opposite sex in that union, as the justice minister herself has stated in her communique.

This is what the law has said for centuries and is what the vast majority of the Canadian people believe and there are many good empirical reasons why that definition should form the basis of Canadian society for years to come. This is not exclusionary. People are still free to choose. They still have rights. If it is a question of how individuals are to share social programs to reflect their lifestyles, then by all means we will look at the benefits in a separate scenario. But let us do it here in this House where the debates can be followed by every interested party and where we can have input from a variety of viewpoints. We do not have to redefine society to suit every individual if we can simply redefine benefit.

I offer another quote from Professor Martin: “It is a principle of our law that constitutional issues should only be raised as a last resort. If a case can be resolved on non-constitutional ground, then it should be.”

We must put an end of the knee-jerk reaction that suggests every identifiable group is a victim simple in need of extra rights to go along with the ones they already have.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Reform

Eric C. Lowther Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the very succinct and thorough talk by my colleague on this motion.

I was interested to hear him briefly refer to a document the justice minister had written that clearly articulated her position. I was looking at a quote from Hansard that seemed to conflict with what the justice minister had said according to the previous speaker.

If I understood the previous speaker, he was saying the justice minister supports the current definition of spouse and marriage and was willing to defend that in court. But when I looked through Hansard there was a clear question asked on this case to the justice minister and the answer we got back was along the lines of the judiciary has the job to interpret and apply the law. The two seem very contradictory to me. One is status quo and one lets the courts do as they will.

I was wondering if my colleague would be willing to address that issue and if he could offer some explanation as to why that might be going on and maybe how a Reform government would approach this issue.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Reform

Gerry Ritz Reform Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

When we referred to the justice minister and her statement supporting the institution of marriage as it now stands, it was in a letter regarding a constituent who wrote in with concerns that Bill C-225, a private member's bill before this House, is very timely.

The constituent supported that bill to the full letter of the law and asked for the justice minister to support that bill as well. In the letter back to the constituent, the justice minister reiterated that under today's laws in Canada the definition of spouse is the marriage of people of the opposite sex and that she would continue to defend that concept of marriage in court, if should be.

That is basically the premise of the motion today. It is to ask the justice minister to appeal Ontario's decision in the Rosenberg case to the highest court of the land, the supreme court, and see it to its fruition. Let us get a little more attention on this. Let us look at it through the lens of family friendly regardless of our definition of family and get this thing out in the open and have a long serious look at it. I think we need to do that.

As to how a Reform government would approach this situation, we are talking about moral issues here. In our blue book we propose a matter such as this going to a binding referendum that would be held Canada-wide. Let everyone out there have a say rather than just the justices giving us direction or the parliamentarians who may tend to skew their constituents' answers. We would ask our constituents themselves to make the ruling on these types of institutions.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the hon. member and I want to know why the Reform Party continues to want to undermine the charter of rights and freedoms. Why exactly is that?

It is fundamental to due process of law and the underpinnings of fundamental justice that the courts need to have independent power when it comes to enforcing the charter or it cannot protect the equality of all citizens. We understand that and we know that to be true.

I participated in the judges debate and I was amazed when one of the Reform members actually suggested that a certain judge did not deserve a pay raise because she did not follow Mosaic law. Giving statements like that, I really wonder where the Reform Party is coming from on these kinds of issues. Why does it continue to try to undermine the charter of rights and freedoms?

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Reform

Gerry Ritz Reform Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I guess we are down to the issue of the chicken and the egg. What came first in Canada, the laws or the courts? In our estimation, the laws had to come first and the courts are there to interpret them. The justices are asked to interpret those laws to the given cases before them, but not to write the laws or to fill in the blanks that they feel are missing. That is the fundamental difference in our philosophy and theirs.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Reform

Rick Casson Reform Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Lethbridge to speak to this motion.

The motion before is to stop federal legislation from being altered by judicial rulings.

It is not limited to the specific issue of spouse. Rather, this motion has ramifications beyond that decision taken by the courts in the Rosenberg case.

It is imperative that this House examine in depth the implications of allowing the courts free rein over the rewriting of laws, which is over and above the mandate subscribed to them through democratic procedure.

By not appealing the Rosenberg decision, we are allowing the courts to create public policy. I remind this House that the judiciary is not an elected body

When we as members of Parliament are elected by our constituents, we are elected on the basis of our platform, our individual accomplishments in our communities and our dedication to our constituents to uphold the democratic rule of this country.

The fundamental role of writing law lies with the legislature. As duly elected representatives, we are accountable to the people of this country and to the will of the people. The motion before us today is to appeal the Rosenberg decision because it violates the democratic rule of parliamentary supremacy and supports the controversial notion of judicial activism.

This Liberal government has remained conveniently silent on the role of parliament and judicial activism. When judges start acting like law makers, they have exceeded their legal authority and their intended mandate.

When will the government appeal a decision saturated with judicial activism and uphold the laws of this country? It is imperative that the legislature create and write laws as dictated by the will of the public. The will of the public has yet to be heard.

The silence of the Liberal government speaks volumes. This government has until June 22 to appeal this blatant example of judicial activism.

Not appealing this recent decision can only be interpreted as approving this action. If the Liberal government supports the direction of the Rosenberg decision, it should still appeal the decision and follow the correct channels if it wants to change the definition of spouse.

Regardless of personal beliefs, one way or another, the essence of this argument is founded in democracy. Either someone respects the tradition of parliamentary supremacy or they do not. If the Liberal government wants to rewrite laws in order to include same sex spouses, that is for the legislature and not for the judiciary to decide. This could not be more clear.

I urge my colleagues to rethink the strategy of leaving legislative decisions in the hands of unelected officials. If the will of the people dictates a change to the current definition of spouse, the proper channel must be followed in order to change the laws of this country. The ramifications of not appealing a judge made law are enormous.

Is this an example of the gradual erosion of the very democratic principles that have been upheld in this great country since Confederation? Is this Liberal government prepared to take a back seat to law makers while unelected judges rewrite laws without any adherence to democratic tradition?

Will this Liberal government ever have the fortitude to stand up to the judiciary and lay down the law once and for all? I am sure every member of parliament realizes just how politically difficult such a decision can be.

After examining the issue, we could choose to bury our heads in the sand and refuse to address these difficult questions or we can appeal the decision and return the issue into the hands of the legislatures of this country.

When our constituents voted us in, they did so on the premise that we would uphold the democratic principles of Canada. If the government does not act to appeal the Rosenberg decision, we will not be upholding democracy. We will be encouraging a judicial activism free for all.

A government that refuses to tackle this difficult task while in office is just not doing its job. We made a solemn promise to our constituents when we were sworn into parliament. Accountability is crucial.

When Canadians voted us in, they entrusted us to deal with improving on Canada's existing laws and to rewrite laws when and where necessary. Yes, there will be very difficult decisions to make along the way but these decisions must be made. They must be made in accordance with the rules and principles of democracy.

What this Liberal government will be doing if it chooses to silently support this action is ignoring proper democratic procedure and opting for the easy way out.

Yes, we will have vastly different opinions in this House on this issue of the definition of spouse. Yes, the debate will be full of conflicting opinions and beliefs, and it has been. Yes, it is politically awkward and yes, the debate will filter down to the constituency level. It is a debate that must occur in parliament, even if it is politically inconvenient.

We were elected to deal with the simple and the tough issues all the same. It is a debate that must be held in the central legislature of this country. We owe it to our constituents to uphold our roles as law makers. It is imperative that this Liberal government take a leadership role and stop shipping awkward political questions to the judiciary for decisions.

We must heed similar warnings coming from judges themselves. Justice John McClung of the Alberta Court of Appeal is on record as saying:

We judges are now permitted, sparingly, to correct legislative excess, but we should remain co-servants with the law makers in the business of representative government and we should never allow ourselves to evolve into their second guessing surrogates. Yet judges seem to be moving, incrementally but steadily, from the role of parliamentary defenders to that of its nemesis.

Straight from the mouth of the judiciary we have been warned by the courts themselves. Consider this judicial notice for the legislature to gets its priorities in order and get back to legislating the affairs of this country.

If we do not appeal decisions that are blatant examples of judicial activism we are sending a clear message to judges that they can go ahead and act like law makers instead of concentrating on their roles as the interpreters of laws.

The citizens of this country do not elect their judges to make laws. That is what they elect us to do. That is precisely why this Liberal government must respect the democratic principles of this country and limit the far reaching effects of judges making laws.

I urge the government and all political parties in this House to say no to judge made law and to put the issue to debate in the House where law making is supposed to originate. I call on the government to openly state its position and return issues of public concern to the forum for which debate is intended.

Difficult or not, we must maintain and uphold the democratic principles of this country and put a cap on law making from unelected judges. It is within this Liberal government's power to do so and I urge it to adhere to the legal principles of this country. The government has until June 22 to act responsibly.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, there have been further consultations among the parties with regard to this evening's session. I think you will find there is unanimous consent for the following addition to the motion which I made earlier about the House continuing this evening. I move:

That, at the conclusion of debate on any motion in amendment to Bill C-30 at the report stage, a division shall be deemed to have been put, requested and deferred pursuant to special order made earlier this day.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Mr. Speaker, I find the member for Lethbridge's comments to be totally incongruent. On one hand he talks about upholding democratic traditions of Canada. The next thing we know he is attacking the judges and wants to elect them like in the United States.

Surely the member should recognize that the charters of rights and freedoms has a very important role to play in our democratic institutions. When he talks about upholding democratic traditions of Canadians he should have some sensitivity to minority rights.

I understand that the member's party since I have been in this House has been continually attacking minority rights not for any gains it might have but to try to divide Canadians and try to politically profit from it.

We are no longer back in the traditional Bible days of the Social Credit Party, nor are we back to the Bible hours conducted by the leader of the official opposition.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Reform

Rick Casson Reform Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that these things are mentioned in that tone. I do not think it was the Leader of the Opposition who had the radio program. I think it was his father. He is very proud of that, as his father was and as I am sure his children are.

After I was elected and before I came to Ottawa to be sworn in a constituent asked me in my office what I felt the most important part of my job was as a member of parliament. I told him I felt the most important thing I could do was represent the wishes of my constituents. I still believe that. He said that I was wrong. He said that the most important thing I would do as a member of parliament is create responsible legislation, legislation that all our constituents will have to live under. He told me I must do it with a great deal of thought and a great deal of preparation.

I really took that to heart and it did somewhat alter my priorities. It made me more aware of how important this part of our lives is, being in the House, working on and preparing legislation for the citizens of Canada to live by.

The fact remains that I am elected and I represent the people of my constituency and the people of Canada. When I help to make a law or when I support a law I am adding their voice to that law. We must never lose the ability as legislators to prepare laws for the people of Canada. If we feel or see it happening that the judges of this land instead of interpreting and enforcing laws are reading in items and changing the intent, we have to protect against that.

If something in a law is not doing what it is supposed to do then we should bring it back to this House for debate. That is all we are trying to get to today. All this other ranting and raving about whatever is not getting to the point.

The lesson well learned from a constituent was that law making is very important and it is a big part of this job.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Mississauga West.

I rise to address the motion before the House today. The member opposite appears a bit confused about how our democracy works, about the checks and balances put in place to ensure our system of democracy is well protected. The simple truth is that the decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal regarding the Rosenberg case is one of hundreds decided across Canada daily involving one branch or another of the federal government.

It is a supreme irony that members of the official opposition have focused so much attention on a decision of the Ontario Court of Appeal while there are hundreds of others of great importance they have chosen to ignore. This decision was recently rendered by the Ontario Court of Appeal. It is my understanding that it is being considered by officials and that in due course the Attorney General of Canada in collaboration with her colleague, the Minister of Finance, who is responsible for the Income Tax Act, will come to a decision as to how to best proceed.

I ask whether the hon. member is suggesting that all litigation conducted against the Government of Canada at whatever court level must be debated before this House. I would think not and I would hope not. That would clearly be unworkable and would prevent this House from carrying on the serious business of government.

With respect to the suggestion in the motion that the judiciary is overreaching its jurisdiction, let me clarify for members opposite how our democracy works. The courts continue to play their traditional and rightful role. As all Canadians know, the courts have a legitimate role which they were given long ago when our Constitution was first established. Our Constitution is an important guarantee of democracy.

It is the Constitution that sets out the power of this parliament and the power of the provincial legislatures. It is for this reason that elections are mandated within a strict time period and that the governor general is given a role as is the Senate.

It is the legitimate important role of the courts as provided by the Constitution to review any action taken by this House or by the provincial legislatures. And that they do to ensure the action was properly conducted by which I mean within proper jurisdiction.

It would not do for the federal government to begin to legislate in areas within provincial jurisdiction or vice versa, or outside the limitations of the fundamental rights and freedoms guaranteed to all Canadians by the charter of rights and freedoms. The fundamental importance of the balance of power set out in and by the Constitution and the ability of ordinary Canadians to challenge their government is part of what makes this country what it is, a shining example of democracy and fairness.

The courts have been tasked with interpreting the Constitution and making decisions on behalf of all citizens. Sometimes that role will require courts to point out to the government not only where their actions are clearly outside of their authority but where unintended consequences may potentially exist as a result of legislation passed in good faith by the House. It is the responsibility then of the courts to signal even those occasions where there was no intention of acting outside of their authority and where legislation was passed in good faith by the House.

Canadians understand and appreciate the need for governments to balance the interests of all Canadians and to try to be fair. After all, governments are elected by the majority, but in a democracy their duty is to serve the interests of all Canadians. Laws and the duty of government cannot responsibly reflect only one vision of what is right or the debate would endlessly revolve around who had the power to shape these norms and focus all Canadians to live them.

This decision is not the first to bring to the attention of the government that there is need to find some fair solution to an important equality issue. The decision itself is not the end of the story, as the hon. member well knows. What is most intriguing is that he seems to object to the court as he sees it assuming some of the role of parliament by changing the legislation. But he is not suggesting that it should be the House that does the job. Rather he suggests an appeal to another court, this time the Supreme Court of Canada. It is a very strange twist of logic indeed.

I assure the House that there is no such thing as judicial legislation, although some alarmists have tried very hard recently to convince us of the existence of this creature used only by “radical judges” who are “out of control”.

Let me suggest rather that it is entirely more accurate to understand that the courts are only playing the same role they have always performed, that of reviewing government action and in a few cases where they believe the answer is clear attempting to help both the Canadians before them and parliament with a suggested solution.

Again, the remedy chosen in this case that is written in is not our preferred choice of remedy, but then again it is hardly written in stone as some seem to believe. Even if the decision is not appealed there remain a number of options open to the House including legislating a solution, which is preferable to us as long as that solution complies with the Constitution and in particular with the charter of rights and freedoms.

As I see it, the courts and legislatures are still engaged in a constructive dialogue in this area of the charter. Courts interpret our constitutional principles and apply them to legislation. If courts think legislatures have it wrong, courts then will declare that provision invalid, but it will always remain open to parliament to introduce a new law that meets the concerns set out by the court.

Because of this the motion is simply inappropriate and shows a lack of appreciation of how democracy works. There is no need to interfere with the routine process with this kind of case or these kinds of cases which have been handled within the government system since Confederation. There is no need for parliament to begin to discuss conduct of individual court cases. Furthermore, it would be entirely inappropriate for parliament to begin to comment on specific cases and decisions of the court.

Public confidence in the courts and in the justice system is largely dependent on the independence of the judiciary. An important element of judicial independence is the ability of judges to make decisions free from interference. It is a cornerstone of the Canadian democratic system and one well worth noting. That freedom also includes freedom from interference by parliament.

This motion, if passed, would represent a serious precedent for interference with the judiciary in attempting to tell the courts what kind of remedies they can and cannot order when a court finds a provision unconstitutional. Instead we should leave this decision, as we have hundreds of others, to the usual process.

Sociologists have pointed out that the variety of household forms in today's society should perhaps be recognized in some way by increasing flexibility to reflect all relationships of economic dependency.

Statistics show that one of the most common household forms for people over the age of 65 is two siblings living together who may well be able to afford an apartment only by combining income. In the coming years some argue that government policies must struggle with the values of Canadian society and with what kind of society we want to have: a society that treats everyone as individuals or a society that facilitates caring, as one socialist has put it.

Certainly part of our stability as a nation comes from the strength of our families. Families continue to be the foundation of our nation, as acknowledged in this House and in all of the homes of this great nation.

In summarizing what this motion means and what it represents, I want to first point out that it is inappropriate in four ways. First, the conduct of court cases by the government is within the sole jurisdiction of the attorney general and this House should not set a precedent by interfering with the mandate or with the ordinary process of determining the appropriate action of a court decision.

Second, this House should not set a precedent by beginning to debate how each and every court case concerning the federal government should be conducted. That would be absolutely ludicrous.

Third, this House should not set a precedent which would appear to Canadians to interfere with the independence of the judiciary. If we do not agree with the court decision, the answer is not to address the decision itself, but to determine other methods of proceeding.

Finally, fourth, not only do Canadians not view this specific court decision as the judges taking over, but they continue to believe that the balance between the role of the courts and the role of parliament is essential to the proper workings of democracy.

I believe that after careful reflection most members of this House will agree with the points I have made.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Reform

Grant McNally Reform Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague's speech. Recently the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration made an appeal to the supreme court on a specific case involving an Ontario court decision concerning a young woman who is being deported whose children were born in Canada.

Is the hon. member indicating that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is interfering with the correct process by making an appeal to a higher court? That is in fact what he seems, by logical conclusion, to be stating in that particular line of reasoning in his debate. I find that quite surprising.

What seems to be at the nub of the issue here is that government members misunderstand the fact that the judiciary in this particular case, as well as others, is reading a new meaning into the law that was not there previous to this new interpretation in this finding.

I would like the hon. member to comment on this. When the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration makes an appeal because that particular case would set a precedent that would affect other cases, does he not feel that is the similar process that should occur in this case? There is a direct contradiction. I would like the hon. member to address that.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member, I want to simply point out that I think he is missing the point. It is certainly the minister's prerogative to appeal. It is, in fact, the process and is within her rights and the laws set out in Canada.

I really find it disheartening to hear the Reform members flip-flop in terms of supreme court and other judges' decisions. I was surprised to read a May 7, 1996 press release issued by the Reform member for Prince George—Peace River, entitled “Kids Win in Supreme Court Ruling”, in which he applauded the court for upholding the rights of non-custodial parents. Even the leader of the Reform Party got in on the act and made political hay in this case.

My point is that when it suits the members opposite they will use it and when it does not they will not. Canadians see through this kind of hypocrisy all too well. It is just simply part and parcel of the kind of nonsense that we get from members opposite.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Reform

Jim Pankiw Reform Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, my question is very simple.

Do the members opposite not understand the difference between a case in which the court upheld the law and a case in which a judge writes words into the law that did not exist before? Do they not see the difference? None of you have demonstrated any understanding of that simple concept all day long. Do you not see the difference between a judge determining if a law is constitutional or not and writing new law in that was never intended or meant to be there by this parliament? Do you not see the difference?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Before the member for Waterloo-Wellington responds, I remind members to address each other through the Chair.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lynn Myers Liberal Waterloo—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, in answer to the member opposite, I simply want to say that yes we do understand the difference. We understand the basis of this great country, the democracy that underpins it and the foundation on which we build day after day.

What they fail to see is that there is a real danger in interfering in the independence of judges. More to the point, we cannot interfere with the independence of the judiciary. I am amazed that the members opposite would do that.

In fairness, it is part and parcel of their approach to negativity and fearmongering which they are very able and very capable of doing this. That is too bad.

The member opposite said something about getting on their high horse. As usual they are on their high horse with that sort of self-righteousness.

I say to them that this government continues to stand on the foundation of the very democracy on which our Constitution was built. We will continue to do that. It is the right and the appropriate thing to do and Canadians respect that.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask the member for Wild Rose not to have a heart attack this afternoon during this debate.

This is really a three-part motion. The first part deals with the Reform Party's attitude toward judges, how they are appointed and what powers they should have. The second part deals with the definition of “spouse” and the whole issue of—

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am sure you will agree that the comment just made by the member opposite regarding the health problems that the member for Wild Rose has are no part of this debate. It certainly served no interest for him to make that comment. I would ask him to withdraw it.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

It really is not a point of order. It is not the role of the Chair to get involved in discussions of this sort. It should go to the member for Mississauga West.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to retract it. It was not meant in any way to be cheap. It was simply in reference to the last time we had a debate in this place when that gentleman and I got fairly heated with one another.

Do not be too sensitive. I withdraw the remark. I agree that it has no relevance here.

Let me go back to what I was saying. It is a three-part motion. If the party was being in the slightest bit honest about what it wants to attempt here it would not couch the initial part which deals with its opinion that federal legislation should not be altered by judicial rulings. Then it puts it together with the definition of “spouse” in the Rosenberg decision. The third part is about the right of appeal.

There was a bit of a Freudian slip by one of the members opposite. When he was reading the entire motion, the Reform member, and forgive me, I forget his riding, said on the third part that the government should immediately “repeal”, not appeal, the decision. The motion reads “the government should appeal”. It is the member opposite who said, in a rather interesting mistake, that the government should repeal the Rosenberg decision. That mistake tells me a lot. That mistake, and I assume it is a mistake and was not said intentionally, really underlines the true feeling of the Reform Party, which is that parliament should simply have the right when it does not like a judge's decision to repeal it.

It is astounding that the Reform Party, which so often wraps itself in the veil of liberty and the protection of freedom for all, would want to give any government, other than its own which we know we will never see, that kind of power. Think about the ramifications.

We could stand in this place and say we do not like a decision that was made by any court in the land and if we could get the support of enough of our colleagues we could overturn the decision. It would lead to anarchy.

I do not like to use extreme terms because Reform members try to pretend that when we do that we are painting them as something they are not. But they are not thinking logically about the impact of turning that kind of power over to a group of men and women which could change every three, four or five years.

Look at the demographics of change now. We have what is referred to as Canada's pizza parliament, with five different parties. There are regional interests. The interests of the people in the west are going to be different than the interests of the people in Ontario. We all know that the interests of the people who the Bloc purports to represent are different than the interests of the majority in this place.

This system is based on the separation of parliamentary procedure and the judiciary. To put them together would be very dangerous.

In the United Kingdom I was talking to some British parliamentarians not long ago who are looking at actually writing a charter of rights. They do not have one. The people from Westminster who founded the democratic parliamentary system do not have a written constitution. This country had to go to them to get its Constitution and they never had one. They do not have a charter of rights. They are looking at putting one together.

The member opposite asked my colleague why we do not understand that the judge is rewriting law. What they fail to understand is that the judge is interpreting law. That is the judge's job, based on the charter of rights and the Constitution. That is what they get so excited about. They want good old “I will get my six guns on and I am going to change the law”. That is what they want. That is not the way this country has been built.

The Reform Party talks about power to the unelected. When it comes down to judicial matters which require someone with tremendous experience of the law to understand the impact they will have on people, frankly, I have a lot more confidence in the judges in this country than I do in members of the Reform Party. To turn that kind of authority or power over to this place is just not realistic.

We can debate the impact of certain decisions on society.

I mentioned that this motion was broken down into three areas. The Reform Party would have judges elected the way they do in the United States. That is not on. That is not the kind of policy Canadians want. They do not want someone sitting at the bar making a decision based on their chances of getting re-elected. They want them sitting on the bench based on what the proper decision is, based on the laws of this land, and based on constitutional rights and the charter of rights and freedoms.

It is curious that they would wrap this issue of judicial accountability into the issue of the definition of same sex benefits or spousal benefits.

I have never believed that one get rights because of sexual orientation. I also do not believe one should lose them. I do not believe the country is built on the principles of being able to say because one is different one does not get this right and someone else does. That is not what Canada is about.

In the simplistic mentality and jargon of members of the Reform Party that is exactly the kind of system they would be creating. If they were truly interested in reform of the judiciary, why would they pick this decision instead of others?

I heard a member opposite talking about the immigration minister having a right to appeal. That is exactly the point. The minister has the right to appeal, not repeal but appeal, just like Canadians. It is amazing. It makes us equal in this place. We can appeal that decision. We can then change the law if we want to write new law and it will be interpreted by the courts based on that new law, our constitution and our charter.

I cite an example from the Daily Mail in London, England. I referred earlier to the U.K. which has decided to change the way it deals with fraud, people who commit fraud when trying to get into the U.K. It has turned it around from some cases which took 10 years to get through a judiciary process and otherwise to doing it now in seven days. We can do that. Parliament has the power to do that.

Judges make decisions about asylum seekers that a number of us do not like. It has happened where members on this side of the House do not like it any more than those on the other side of the House. Should we simply say that is it and overrule the judge? That would create an absolute catastrophe in a bureaucracy. It would be a frightening scenario that would leave it to the subjective minds of people who perhaps are going into an election, are unsure of their footing and do not have a history or knowledge steeped in the law.

This is dangerous. This is very dangerous ground. Reformers in my view are doing nothing more than pretending to want to change the judiciary while highlighting their concerns over issues relating to sexual orientation. If we separate them and have debate in this place on both issues I would have no difficulty, but trying to cloud one with the other is less than dishonest. It is hypocritical.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Reform

Eric C. Lowther Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I was very interested to hear the comments of the previous speaker. When I listened to the arguments he so passionately put forward I was concerned that he was skewing the issue. He was muddying the waters. He was making it confusing for people. I would like to clarify a few points and get his perspective on them.

The particular case we are bringing forward is just a representative case. There are many others. I have a list of them: the Feeney case, Delgamuukw, Eldridge, five or six different cases I could go into details on. However this case is a good illustrative example because the courts have added words to the law in place that was approved by the House. The court actually read in or added words. The hon. member knows how much work goes into determining the exact wording of every piece of legislation that comes through the House. We are concerned about the reading in or addition of words.

I was confused when I listened to the member opposite. I compared what he had to say to what I heard from other members of his party say, in fact some of the leaders of his party. In the last parliament, for example, the justice minister of the party he is from said that we should not rely on the courts to make public policy in matters of this kind, that it is up to legislators and we should have the courage to do it.

I fully endorse that statement as I think all Canadians do. That same justice minister went on to say that the court should not make policy or rewrite statutes, that it was the role of parliament.

What happened in this case was that the court rewrote. It added words. It is not a matter of interpretation or application. It is a matter of writing legislation in the courts. Their own minister clearly said the courts should not do it. Yet I sit here incredulously listening to the member across the way telling us that this is what the courts should be doing. I ask him to please clarify.