Debates of Nov. 15th, 1999

Cape Breton Development Corporation Divestiture Authorization And Dissolution Act

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to enter the debate on Bill C-11, the divestiture of Devco. The debate that has gone on up to now in some ways has pandered to the past, to a myth or a perception that unfortunately exists in other parts of Canada about the economy of Cape Breton. I have heard the word sinkhole used a couple of times. I have even heard members of the New Democratic Party say that we should not do this, that we should continue on with what we have done in the past, that we should stay in the past. I do not think either one of these images or visions of Cape Breton is realistic. I think as Cape Breton exists today it is quite a different place than it was 10 years ago.

I have been heartened by and I will give credit to Keith Brown, vice-president of the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation. He has basically said that Cape Breton has turned the corner, that Cape Breton today is a robust economy.

We have been talking about unemployment rates in Cape Breton. I was amazed to find out that in fact the unemployment rate in Cape Breton is declining. It has declined something like 13% in one year. It has done that because of one basic thing: it has been able to diversify its economy.

The people of Cape Breton are going through some stressful times of adjustment. There is not anybody in this country who has not had to deal with some kind of adjustment in the 1980s and the 1990s because of economic change. Quite frankly, I feel for those people. I feel for those Cape Breton coal miners. I understand what it is like to be 45 years of age and looking at no job.

However, the unemployment rate is declining. There is new industry starting in Cape Breton. There is a great potential, a great future to living in Cape Breton. It is not to go back and live in the past, as the NDP would have us believe; it is to go forward into the future.

There are some very interesting statistics. For instance, 47% of all people employed on the island in 1981 worked in the goods and services sector. That is now down to 20%. In other words, there is a dramatic shift away from the production of goods and services like coal to a service based economy.

Demographic change has occurred in various places. When we talk about unemployment statistics we have to look at the actual labour market. The reality is that at the same time as these statistics have been going up and down—and going down currently—the actual labour force in Cape Breton has been increasing dramatically. For instance, the labour force in Cape Breton went from 106,000 in 1970 to 126,000 in 1996, an increased labour force of 20,000 people. That has to do with the demographics of the area and the age of the population.

This is the perception which I hear from NDP members: “If you cannot see the men in droves heading for the pit, the mill or the wharf with their lunch pails in their hands, there must be less people working”. That is not true. Look at the statistics. There are more people working today than there were two years ago.

[Michelle Dockrill, NDP, Bras D'Or, NS]

And going to the food banks.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

NDP members are not interested in facts; they are into fiction.

The future is many faceted for the people of Cape Breton. The unemployment rate has improved on the south coast of Nova Scotia. By December 1997 the unemployment rate on Cape Breton Island had fallen and improved from the seventh highest rate of 13.5% in the province. By December 1997, 8,000 fewer people were unemployed as compared to December 1996. The unemployment rate fell from a high of 27.5% to 13.5% by December. The economy of Cape Breton has started to change, in spite of members of the NDP who would like to keep it in the past, with the possible exception of Devco.

There are other successful industries. The re-opening of the National Sea Products plant in Louisburg, the establishment of dealer services in North Sydney, the potential sale of the Sydney Steel plant and gas liquefier plant at Port Tupper are all potentials for new industry.

If members recall, the government will provide additional funding to enable those people to relocate from the coal industry to new sectors. Some people may ask why we are doing that if the economy is so successful already. There is great potential for these people because these new jobs are being created in Cape Breton today.

I will not say it is easy. I will not stand here as an Ontario member and say it is easy for somebody who was a coal worker all of their life to suddenly turn around and become a computer engineer or take advantage of some of the new technologies. There is obviously a learning curve. It will be necessary for them to go through some kind of a learning curve. Indeed, it may well be that it will be impossible to fit them in over some kind of timeframe. However, the people of Cape Breton have a very promising future ahead of them.

The per capita income in Cape Breton has been increasing dramatically. There has been something like a 50% increase in the last 10 years.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

What is it?

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

This person is very much interested in what they call the Porter theory of economics, which means that one needs strong clusters of economic activity in order to grow the economy. Guess what? Cape Breton has those clusters now being created within its economy. Here are some interesting statistics.

Currently Cape Breton has produced more CD-ROMs for educational purposes than the rest of the province and leads Nova Scotia in multi-media. The development of a silicon island concept should only serve to strengthen this position.

The University College of Cape Breton is a leader in engineering in the province. The UCCB's connection with the knowledge based cluster will be a linchpin to fostering economic growth. This college employs 420 individuals, making it the sixth largest employer in Cape Breton.

What we are saying is what we all already know about Nova Scotia. There are more people in Nova Scotia engaged in education than there are in forestry or the fishery. These are the signs of a new economy.

Tourism is another cluster being promoted in Cape Breton. Tourism employs about 8% of the people and it is increasing.

Finally, we get into gas and petrochemicals. We have all heard of the Sable Island field. Port Hawkesbury and Port Sydney are strategically located to service this industry. We are seeing that the Sable Island project is only the tip of the iceberg. As we speak, plans are under way for the ongoing exploration of the Laurentian sub-basin which is located in the Grand Banks between Cape Breton and Newfoundland.

We see a whole vision for the future. We see the vision of a high tech industry forming in Cape Breton. We see the vision of a tourism industry. We see the vision of a petrochemical industry. Sure, I understand there are some exceptions to this. Some people in Cape Breton are saying that they do not want to promote natural gas because they have always been dependent on coal. This is not an either/or situation. In fact, it can be both of those things.

We hear members of the NDP today telling us that we cannot get rid of Devco, that it is part of our past and they want to keep it. The reality is that this is part of a change. It is part of a change in the economy as we move toward a better life. I do not think that members of the NDP or anyone else in this room will be able to stop this change. The change is upon us. It is a global change and it is a change for the good. It will change the basic lifestyle of the people of Cape Breton.

There are jobs here. There are opportunities here. These are all positive things.

[An hon. member]

Here?

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

The hon. member was born in Cape Breton. He is one of those people. He has a vision of the future. This government is supporting that vision of the future. It will support those types of industries that will create a new future for the people of Cape Breton.

We realize that it will be a painful exercise to go through. Change is always difficult. Change is not easy. When economies move around, somebody gets hurt. Somebody gets an elbow in the side. I am not saying it is going to be easy.

The industrial revolution in England was not easy. A lot of people got hurt. A lot of people got chewed up. However, the reality is that we are in a new revolution. It is going on in telecommunications. People do not have to sit in Ontario or Toronto. We have heard some people say that to live in Cape Breton simply meant that when people got to the right age they got on the bus and went to Toronto. That is not true any more. They do not have to do that any more. They can sit in their basement, get on the Internet and be plugged into the world. The young people of Cape Breton know that. The people at the University College of Cape Breton know that. That is the future. That is what this government understands. We have to move on to the future. We have to help that transition as much as we can. That is why we have provided a package to make that transition, to be part of that transition.

I heard the NDP say today that we should forget about getting rid of Devco, study it for another 10 years, keep it going because we have a commitment to keep this old industry, and so forth. That industry may well be successful. Maybe some entrepreneurs could take that industry and make it successful. I hope they can. Even if they can, governments will not change the future. The future will be there.

It is important that we as legislators try to help people through change. It is a package like the one the minister is presenting today that makes the transition possible and as painless for those people as possible. It recognizes that is a good for Canadians to help each other, to help those people catapult themselves into the future.

I am happy as a member from Ontario to celebrate with the people of Cape Breton who are making this traumatic change. I wish them the best and I look forward to dealing with them in the future.

[Michelle Dockrill, NDP, Bras D'Or, NS]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the member across the way, when he throws a name at me like Keith Brown it makes me realize exactly how not in touch with reality the government really is.

It is because of such individuals that any economic development over the course of the last 30 years has not worked. He did such a terrible job in the industrial development sector of Devco running a golf course that the government gave him the vice-presidency of a crown corporation. That is what happens when one has a vision according to what the government's vision is.

As I sit and listen to the member I wonder when was the last time he visited Cape Breton and actually talked to some of the real people.

Recently I was present at almost all the presentations at the so-called Liberal road show that they are referring to as the adjustment panel. The former premier of Nova Scotia, who was a former member of this Chamber for 17 years, said one important matter the panel had to take into consideration before the decision with respect to Devco was the crisis that the Cape Breton economy was in and the reality of the fact that the unemployment rate was 30%. That was fact he said. On top of that we will have now an increase in that unemployment and an economy that will continue to be on fast decline.

Is the member telling us and the House that the former premier and the former member of parliament for 17 years was wrong in the numbers he quoted on Friday?

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is one thing to quote numbers in the future. It is another thing to quote numbers today. I will not dispute the methodology of how they were calculated. I am more interested in the facts. As anybody goes out and predicts numbers after one year, two years or three years they become pretty unreliable.

The reality is that the unemployment rate has been declining in Cape Breton. That party and that member do not seem to want to take that into consideration. They do not want to consider the future of the people of Cape Breton who have a wonderful future ahead of them if they just start thinking positively and do not start with a negative attitude like that of the member who thinks everything will be worse tomorrow, everything will be bad tomorrow. The reality is that it is a new tomorrow. It is a new future and we are happy to be part of it.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I almost expected the hon. member to break into song. I feel like I am watching a Broadway production called Happy Miners .

He made a point. He should know that I have presented to the economic panel some 50 pages of where I think the government could economically diversify the economy of Cape Breton. That includes many things from renewable energy production, to expansion of the University College of Cape Breton, to a national shipbuilding policy which the federal Liberal government has rejected over and over but which is a natural fit for Cape Breton.

There are many ideas that the government can implement if it has the will. Given the statistics the hon. member has quoted, I think he needs a bit of a reality check regarding the Cape Breton he sees with rose coloured glasses. He is talking about all the jobs that are being created. The reality is that the mayor of the Cape Breton regional municipality sees a decline of $25 million in tax revenue over the next five years and has said as recently as three weeks ago that the municipality may have to simply declare itself no longer an entity and fall under provincial auspices because Devco and Sysco are being cut by the federal and provincial governments.

The member talked about the University College of Cape Breton. The president of that university acknowledges that the reality is we need some kind of massive response to the number of children of miners who cannot afford tuition as a result of this package and who will not be able to further their education at that very worthwhile institution.

That is just a dose of sobering reality for the member's cheery response. We are prepared to diversify economically. We need some help and assistance in that, but let us get real.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the one thing I did catch in his dissertation was that he talked about all the things we could do in the future to diversify the economy, but the government had to be a partner.

I understand the concept of being a partner in the area of education, and I agree with him. I think we in government have an obligation to educate our people. That is why we started a millennium fund for kids that possibly could not make it into secondary institutions.

What the member did say, which I thought was more profound, was that we have to be partners in all these businesses. That is exactly the thought process which created Devco in the first place. With all the things that have gone on in the past that will not fly any more. Surely the people of Cape Breton can see that does not work any more.

Governments cannot be directly involved in businesses, mainly because we are pretty damn poor at it when it comes right down to it. The reality is that we do not want the government as a partner. What we do want the government to do is to be involved in those areas where it can increase the skill sets of people.

We must realize that the federal government gives direct contributions through our transfer payment mechanism to post-secondary education. There is a commitment of the federal government to post-secondary education.

The member is saying that it is not enough, that we need to find ways to deal with the underlying financial restructuring that will occur. I am sure we will continue as we meet in committee and other places to try to find ways to resolve that problem, but that is not all that problematic relative to a lot of other places in the country which have been struck by structural changes to the economy.

We have to find ways to solve those problems. We have to find the money to solve those problems. We have some money on the table that goes part of the way toward solving those problems. I agree it is not perfect, but the reality is that collectively we will find a way to solve those problems.

I do not believe that everything is as terrible in Cape Breton as the member has said. I believe there is a large glimmer of hope. I think there is a great, bright future for the people of Cape Breton.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, today we are actually having a rather telling debate in the House of Commons. We are talking about part of the country that has been struggling for a long time successfully. It is called Bill C-11.

I thought about how a person could begin a presentation which would reveal how one thinks about this legislation. I thought of a way. I know I am not supposed to do this but it symbolizes what we think about the legislation. It should be torn up and thrown away. It should be torn up in little tiny pieces and just chucked away.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys has far more experience than I and knows full well that demonstrations of this kind are not countenanced by our rules.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your intervention. I think it is a crazy rule because we have to find ways to symbolize what we think in this place. We can use our vocabulary, prepare our speeches and so on. Some of my colleagues across the way have been noted from time to time for their rather exuberant presentations. I acknowledge the practice we have in this place. We should not physically tear up legislation, and for that reason I apologize, but I thought it was a good idea in terms of expressing how we feel.

What is the legislation all about? Let us be very frank about it. It is about the men, women, families and children of Cape Breton. What does the legislation do to them? It slaps them across the face. Every man, woman and child in Cape Breton is being slapped across the face with this legislation. If the minister had the guts when he stood he would have waved this as some sort of symbolic slap across the face to the people of Cape Breton. That is what—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I am really disappointed that I have to intervene once again. We have determined over the years that we do not refer to another member's fortitude or lack thereof.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I was referring more to the way I thought the minister could have made his presentation.

A lot of people today are watching the House of Commons, the Parliament of Canada, to see how it will proceed with a very serious issue in Cape Breton. My colleagues from Sydney—Victoria, from Bras d'Or—Cape Breton and others have spoken to this issue. Do people really care about what is happening to the people of Cape Breton?

We know how the government feels about the prairie farmers who are also in a crisis situation. They have been faxing, phoning, writing and sending delegation after delegation. They are completely ignored, which I suspect will account for some of the outcome in the byelection later today. We will set that aside.

Those of us from western Canada know how callously we have been treated by the government when it comes to agriculture. Now we slip to the other coast and to Cape Breton.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

They don't care.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

My friend from Wild Rose says that they do not care. Today we are trying to test whether or not they care. This is the litmus test for the Liberal government to say that it cares about people in Atlantic Canada, that it cares about people in Cape Breton. We will see what the government will do. The package it has come up with is absolutely pathetic. It is a pathetic, uncaring and meanspirited package.

If I could get away with it, but I probably cannot, I would point to Liberals across the way and say that what they are doing in Cape Breton is a form of institutionalized child abuse. It is child neglect. When a child is neglected in our country it is called child abuse.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With great respect, I think it is inappropriate to use terminology like that and to refer to the people of Cape Breton as children.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I was paying very close attention to the debate. I certainly would have intervened had I felt that the suggestion had gone to a point that was inappropriate, but I appreciate your intervention.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my hon. Liberal friend opposite that there are thousands of children in Cape Breton who tonight are experiencing a form of societal political child abuse.

I want to make the case that in this country when we abuse or neglect the needs of a child we are convicted of some form of child abuse. This particular package neglects not one child's needs, not 100 children's needs, not 1,000 children's needs but tens of thousands of children's needs. That is why I say this is a societal political form of child abuse that we are witnessing in the House of Commons today. This is a conscious decision by Liberal members opposite to inflict pain and suffering on the children of Cape Breton because they are going to inflict pain and suffering on the parents in Cape Breton.

Are we supposed to sit here and take this today? I have heard my colleagues opposite, who do not necessarily agree with some of the thrust of our arguments, say that they appreciate that the hardship of the folks in Cape Breton have to be acknowledged. As a matter of fact, I remember my old Liberal friend, who was not long ago the premier of Nova Scotia, describe the situation in Cape Breton as an economic crisis. Is this piddling piece of legislation how the Liberals deal with an economic crisis? Is this how they deal with a state of hopelessness that they perpetuated on the people of that part of the country?

This is a cruel and thoughtless document. This is a document that is intended to pick on the people of Cape Breton. Surely to goodness the government does not expect the people of Cape Breton to sit there quietly and take this. I know, the Liberals are going to consult. Oh my God, how pathetic a comment could one make? They say, “We're going to consult”. What is there to consult about? Do we want to consult in terms of what the alternatives are?

My colleague from Sydney—Victoria has already made a 15 page presentation of what actions could be taken. They were thoughtful, positive, progressive comments in terms of what this transitional package could look like, but there was one thing that it required in order to be properly implemented and that was proper and adequate financial investment, not this little Mickey Mouse, weasel-minded piece of legislation.

A lot of my Liberal friends opposite have said “We don't hear any positive ideas”. I do not know about them, but if they had read the proceedings of the panel and heard the presentation simply made by one member who made many presentations about all of the progressive initiatives that could be taken in that part of Canada, I am prepared to say today that with the appropriate investment by the government, Cape Breton could be turned into the economic showpiece of this great country. It requires an investment, a commitment and a willingness to put money on the line.

The government cannot say it does not have any money. It has billions and billions of dollars sitting in a fund right now called a surplus. It has money coming out of its ying-yang. It has billions and billions of dollars that it could invest if it wanted to.

One can only assume that if the government has the money it must not want to invest it properly. The will and the commitment is not there to the people of Cape Breton. They are not asking for a handout. I have heard Liberals say today that the people of Cape Breton want a handout. That is an insult.

The people from Cape Breton have moxie. They have the guts, the courage, the experience and the talent. They want to work in progressive and positive careers.

I remember a visit to Cape Breton where we had a chance to drop into the University College of Cape Breton. I do not think I will ever forget that day. There was a long lineup of young people who were students at the university college. There was the administrative staff and members of the board. Every single one of those individuals, every man and woman who made a presentation to our committee, said that they had a great future there but that they needed some resources and some infrastructure.

Can anyone imagine what the state of affairs would be in this city without any investment in the high tech infrastructure? The government says that it cannot afford it. It can afford to invest all kinds of money in the nation's capital. The University College of Cape Breton wants an investment.

My friend mentioned that there were all sorts of ideas, such as shipbuilding. We are one of the world's greatest trading nations. Should we not have a viable, dynamic shipbuilding sector? We have a delegation visiting the House of Commons industry committee tomorrow in order to make its case for developing a comprehensive and major program to develop the shipbuilding industry in the country. Can anyone imagine a better place to centre that than in Cape Breton? There is no shortage of ideas and so on in terms of how to deal with this situation.

My colleague mentioned that a lot of people today were going to lose their jobs. This will not be hundreds of people. A thousand people will lose their jobs in that part of Canada. Can anyone imagine the impact of that? Some of the economists have suggested that impact will be somewhere in the range of $1.5 billion over a few years. Hundreds and hundreds, thousands and thousands, millions and millions of dollars will be taken out of that local economy as a result of that closure.

As a member of parliament from Kamloops, I understand it because we just had a closure of a major copper mine. Thank goodness it was temporary, but I know the impact it had, not only economically but psychologically, on those people who worked hard underground in those mines. If anybody in the House of Commons had spent five minutes underground in that part of the country and saw the kind of working conditions that those men and women have struggled with for so many years, they would know that these miners deserve every particular break they can get from the government to enable them to carry on and support their families.

The government said that it decided to take a bold step and go consulting. That has got to be one of the most pathetic gestures a person could come up with. This is the same government that is now consulting over Nisga'a. The Prime Minister said that the government was not going to change one letter of that agreement or one letter of the legislation. In other words, we can consult until the cows come home but the government will not change anything. I suspect that is about the same willingness to have input into the situation now in terms of consultation in Cape Breton.

The people of Cape Breton have not been spared this kind of imposed violence against them, such as from the old coal companies that brought in people to break-up the strikes. Violence is nothing new to this part of Canada, but the people have always stood up, struggled on and been successful. They will do it again. All they are asking for is a fair break in terms of investments into that part of country through their university college and other agencies. This would enable them to pick up, carry on and do what any progressive person would want to do, turn it into an economic showpiece for the entire country.

Let us think about what the government could do for Cape Breton today if it stood up and said that it had decided to make some bold changes to ensure that every young person in Cape Breton has access to the University College of Cape Breton and that it would ensure that every person who needs upgrading and training has access, and to that end, it would eliminate the tuition fees for that institution for the next 10 years.

Goodness grief, the amount of money the government has taken out of the EI fund could have been used for the stuff that has probably spilled beside the desk of the Minister of Finance. We are not talking about a lot of money, but it is that kind of bold initiative that the government could be taking. What does it do instead? It comes in with this completely laughable piece of legislation. If it was not so serious, we would consider it to be some form of laugh-in, for Pete's sake, or some kind of yuk yuk club intervention by the minister.

This is a very serious issue. We are talking about the future of men, women, children and families in Cape Breton. As New Democrats on this side of the House of Commons, we will do whatever is physically possible to ensure that the legislation never ever sees the light of day.

[Michelle Dockrill, NDP, Bras D'Or, NS]

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague has said, he has spent some time in Cape Breton and really has a good sense of what is happening on the ground.

I just have a simple question for my colleague. He has been in the House a lot longer than I have and has seen a lot of legislation come and go. He has seen a lot of initiatives on the part of governments that have not in fact benefited the citizens that they are supposedly intended to help.

There seems to be a perception that continues to permeate from the Liberal government to central Canadians and some western Canadians that what is happening in Cape Breton is really Cape Bretoners' own fault. I am wondering if the member sees any responsibility over the course of the last 30 years in how the economy has been on a steady decline not with the people of Cape Breton Island but with the governments of the day.

[Nelson Riis, NDP, Kamloops, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as others before me have commented, we see in parts of Atlantic Canada that Cape Breton is no different. This is a rather unusual form of patronage where so much of the financial support that should go to good economic ventures is peeled off for political payoff purposes. I wish I could say something different, but the reality is that for too long it has been political patronage, political pork barrelling and political payoffs that have been determining the economic development of that part of Canada, which should never have occurred.

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Hamilton West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I found myself running down here literally after hearing the remarks of a colleague of this place. We have shared this House for some 11 years this month.

When the member for windbag, or rather Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys got up to speak—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.