House of Commons Hansard #40 of the 36th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was consent.

Topics

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Monte Solberg Reform Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, we have the greatest country in the world, but no thanks to this Liberal government which transferred a $42 billion deficit on to the backs of taxpayers. That is irresponsible. That is not leadership; that is cowardice. We see it from this government every day. Canadians, frankly, are sick of it. They will not take it much longer. That is why the government is on its way out.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was wondering if it might be possible to receive this evening the approval of the House on a bill that has been before the House on a private members' issue, Bill C-202, dealing with high speed chases.

I realize this is one of the last few sittings that we have. Under the circumstances, given that there may be some people who will actually be injured or die, I am looking for the unanimous consent of the House that Bill C-202 be reported, given third reading and presented to the Senate.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I gather the hon. member is asking that the bill be deemed passed in effect. Is there unanimous consent?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take immediate action to restore Employment Insurance benefits to seasonal workers.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am going back to my riding tomorrow morning. Before I leave I would like to request that, because it is the Christmas season, perhaps the Bloc members and Liberal members would want to put their family feud to rest just for a few days and enjoy Christmas. I am sure they would be able to enjoy it far better if they were not worried about this little family tiff they are having.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I do not know what the point of the hon. member's intervention was but it was not a point of order.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to rise today to present and debate Motion No. 222 on seasonal workers and the employment insurance.

The motion reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take immediate action to restore Employment Insurance benefits to seasonal workers.

The debate on this votable motion is an opportunity for my colleagues and myself to thoroughly look into the issue of seasonal work and try to find short, medium and long term solutions.

I introduced this motion in order to demystify seasonal work. People who work in seasonal industries are often called seasonal workers. We often forget that they are not seasonal workers; their jobs are seasonal.

The main reason I wanted to introduce this motion is the recent changes to the employment insurance plan. Through this debate, I want to highlight the negative impact of these changes on the lives of people who work in seasonal industries and of their families.

I want to highlight the important contribution of these workers to our country and our economy. But most of all, I want to engage my colleagues in an exchange in order to develop solutions that will certainly include a proposal to reform the employment insurance, but also proposals to diversify our country's seasonal economy.

First, it must be mentioned that seasonal work is very important for the Canadian economy. It accounts for one million direct jobs and contributes to the creation of thousands of others. A number of industries are seasonal by nature. A case in point are the industries which are weather-dependent such as fishing, logging, agriculture, mining, construction and tourism. There are other industries such as the automotive industry, education, and cultural industries.

Seasonal industries are an important variable in Canada's balance of payments. Net exportations of agricultural products, seafood, energy and mainly wood products are the main elements in Canada's balance of trade.

The tourism industry is the 12th largest economic sector.

In 1995, shipments by the construction industry were estimated at $22.8 billion. That year, the building materials industry accounted for about 6% of the gross domestic product from manufacturing and it provided direct jobs to nearly 150,000 people across Canada.

In 1996, the forestry sector contributed $20 billion to the Canadian economy. Activities in this sector accounted for 2.9% of the GDP. In 1997, national forestry exports were estimated at $38.9 billion. Moreover, in 1997, the forestry sector provided 365,000 direct jobs.

As for the commercial fishery on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, it was valued at $1.6 billion in 1997. Fisherman from the Atlantic provinces are responsible for 74% of that amount.

Looking at these statistics, it is obvious that seasonal industries are important to our economy throughout the country. All these sectors make an important contribution not only to our economy but also to our quality of life.

Part time university professors contribute to the education of our young people but their work often depends on university semesters.

Who does not appreciate a nice lobster, especially here in Ottawa? We often tend to forget that before reaching our plate lobster had to be harvested by a fisherman and packed by a plant worker to be shipped to Ottawa.

Tourism is another example. A canoe rental business can hardly find clients in the middle of winter when rivers are frozen. Therefore, it provides work to its employees only 10 or 12 weeks out of the year, during the summer months.

Seasonal jobs are dispersed throughout Canadian industries. Their contribution to the Canadian economy goes far beyond the activity that is confined directly to the seasonal jobs themselves.

In the forestry sector for example, the harvesting of trees leads to primary sector activity in sawmills, pulp and paper, and plywood and panel board plants. Secondary manufacturing includes planing mills, engineered wood products, manufacturing of paper or cardboard products, wood re-manufacturing, prefab homes and wood doors and windows.

Seasonal activity in forestry generates year round activity in many more sectors.

In 1995, a working committee was set up to examine the issue of seasonal work and employment insurance. Its report contains findings that in my opinion are still valid today.

First, it draws attention to the fact that what is seasonal is not the workers but the jobs. Second, the committee found that the contribution of seasonal labour to the Canadian economy was largely ignored.

Furthermore, it noted that a negative attitude toward seasonal workers was emerging and that these workers were considered responsible for the temporary nature of their jobs.

Finally, it warned the Liberal government of the day that any change to employment insurance would disproportionately affect seasonal workers.

The government had in its possession a document that said what exactly the impact would be on seasonal workers but it chose to go ahead anyway.

What is the situation today? The eligibility criteria are too high and prevent many seasonal workers from receiving employment insurance benefits.

In addition, the government decided to punish workers who frequently claim employment insurance by making them subject to the intensity rule.

The committee was right to say that the government had a negative attitude toward seasonal workers.

Instead of attacking seasonal workers, the employment insurance reform should have taken into account their particular conditions and created a system reflecting the reality of the labour market.

Seasonal work is a subject of special concern because those engaged in seasonal work have fewer alternatives than other workers and are therefore more dependent on EI. They cannot fish when the bait is frozen or cut trees in the spring thaw when roads turn to mud. Very often, workers in seasonal industries live in remote areas of the country where the only work is seasonal and things freeze up in the winter.

The working group has also predicted that the EI reform would have a negative impact on women. In many cases, women who work in fish plants are unable to meet the number of hours of work requirement to qualify for EI.

With the EI reform, the number of hours required to qualify has doubled in certain areas. Besides, the 910 hours required from newcomers on the labour market or from workers who have been away from the labour market for a time result in the exclusion of many women and young people.

This 910 hour requirement penalizes women who have decided to stay home to raise their children during their formative years. When they go back to work and the seasonal work ends, they do not have any income because they cannot meet that 910 hour requirement.

Why did the government choose to make those changes if it knew what the impact on women would be? Perhaps because it wanted to use the surplus accumulated in the EI fund thanks to all those restrictions to reduce the deficit and the debt.

In the last few weeks, we have talked about the rise in the number of children living in poverty. It is not hard to realize that the EI cuts have deprived mothers and fathers of benefits, and that their families suffer because of that.

Since many poor families are headed by single mothers, the fact that women do not qualify for EI has contributed directly to the increase in child poverty. The saddest thing of all is that this negative impact was very likely intentional

The EI reform has had a negative impact on seasonal workers. This impact was predicted and can be observed today.

It is time to admit that errors were made. It is time to make changes so that seasonal workers can again qualify for EI premiums.

But the government must not stop there. I am often accused of suggesting EI as the solution to all problems. That it not true. Really.

What must be remembered is that the EI program is there to help workers who have, through no fault of their own, lost their job. It is a temporary measure to help during the transitional period, but this government is forgetting that this temporary measure is necessary for both workers and for the economy. When workers are denied EI premiums, small and medium size businesses suffer too.

Even the Liberals agreed with us. In 1993, when the Prime Minister was the leader of the opposition, he said:

By reducing benefits and further penalizing those who leave their jobs voluntarily, the government shows very little concern for the victims of the economic crisis. Instead of getting to the heart of the problem, it goes after the unemployed.

What happened to our Prime Minister? Perhaps the same thing that happened to the red book, the GST and all the rest.

The Prime Minister went on to say:

These measures will have a disturbing impact.

Is it not ironic that when he came to power our Prime Minister did exactly what he spoke out against? He went after unemployed workers and the result was very disturbing.

The Prime Minister was not the only one to oppose relentlessly the proposed changes to employment insurance. On July 31, 1989, my predecessor, Doug Young, said that the taxpayers of New Brunswick should vigorously oppose these changes, which would have serious consequences on the region.

I am prepared to give credit to the Liberals. They understood the situation before taking office in 1993. They knew that employment insurance was an important program that was part and parcel of the social fabric of our country.

I even believe that they know now that they are wrong. But the employment insurance fund is accumulating a surplus of $7 billion every year and they do not want to give up what this surplus brings them. As I said before and continue to say, workers are the victims in this case and this is unacceptable.

My hon. colleagues opposite sometimes point out to me that workers are abusing the employment insurance program. But the workers are not the ones dependent on the employment insurance system, the Minister of Finance is. He cannot do without it and he relies on it.

But to talk about employment insurance is not good enough. The problem with seasonal industries is that we do not think in the long term about the diversification of the economies dependent on these industries.

Seasonal work is found mainly in rural areas where natural resource development is the main activity.

It is not that people do not want to work. It is a situation where once their working season comes to an end, be it in forestry, the tourist industry, fishing or construction, there is no other work to be had.

Thus, apart from giving them access to the EI program, we must also invest to ensure economic diversification.

Too often these communities harvest the resource. For example, in communities like Caraquet, Shippagan, Lamèque, Bouctouche and Cap Pelé in New Brunswick, fish is caught and then sent to Japan for processing.

Why not do the processing at home? Why should we not do secondary and tertiary processing? Why do we not develop aquaculture, which could represent the future of fisheries?

However to develop such industries, we need a long term vision that builds on the experience and the know-how of all the players, investors, workers, community groups and elected officials, whatever their political affiliation.

For too long now Atlantic Canada has suffered because of decisions based on political motives rather than on the best interest of the communities. This has to change. We cannot go on like this.

The Liberals will have to stop giving away money only to their friends and start looking at the real economy and the way to develop it. What they are doing is the way things were done by politicians a century ago. It has to change. We have to work together to change things. We cannot go on like this. We need a long-term vision on how to develop the economy of our country and of our rural areas. As long as we do not do it, we will be missing the boat. We will be missing the boat and a great opportunity. We have to recognize the difference between rural Canada and urban areas.

We need to invest in our infrastructures so that our rural communities can become as competitive as our urban centres.

Again, in my province of New-Brunswick, the natural gas pipeline runs from Sable Island to the south, but does not go to the north. How do you expect northern New-Brunswick to compete with the south when the infrastructures serving these two areas are not the same?

Besides investing in the infrastructures, we have to invest in people. We have to give them some training. Not just any kind of training, but training in the industries that are liable to develop in their region.

We have to try to improve access to training. In order to diversify the economy, we need to provide the workers with the support they need to get jobs in the new industries.

The working group, in looking at the seasonal worker and employment insurance, said:

What is lacking in many areas dependent on seasonal work is the infrastructure to make diversification possible, for example:

Core infrastructure such as transportation, telecommunications, basic services such as water, electricity and waste disposal;

Access to research institutions with the corporate-government and university liaisons and the means to develop and market research ideas;

Access to education and training institutions, both the buildings and the hardware and software to reach rural communities;

Access to financial institutions to bridge the financing requirements at a reasonable cost for start-up companies and companies in need of restructuralizing, rationalizing or expanding.

In other words, we need some planning. We have to determine which regions rely on seasonal work and then develop strategies based on their specific needs.

We have to remember that seasonal workers are here to stay. We will always want to eat lobster and need lumber to build our houses.

We have to stop penalizing seasonal workers and try to find solutions to extend the working season in the communities that rely on seasonal work.

While we wait for medium and long-term solutions, we need to make the EI benefits more accessible by reducing the number of working hours needed to qualify.

We have to stop hurting seasonal workers. We have to get rid of the intensity rule. And lastly, we have to increase the benefit rate to 60%.

I have submitted my short, medium and long-term solutions to the seasonal work problem and I look forward to hearing your suggestions.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to speak following my neighbour from the north of my constituency, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, and also my good friend from Madawaska—Restigouche in the far north.

I recognize the work the hon. member has done with EI. He has travelled the country. His background has been with the labour movement. When he speaks he is certainly speaking on behalf of his constituents and the many people he has worked with in the mining sector and other sectors of the labour congress over the last number of years.

I differ very basically on some of the points the hon. member is making. His tremendous energy should be directed more toward the creation of employment, the creation of job opportunities for those people who are in need of work. We heard the speech of the hon. member. I see that you read the report of our Atlantic caucus.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

I ask the hon. member to address his comments through the Chair.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

The hon. member read the report of our Atlantic caucus. In fact his speech reflected the need for infrastructure, the need for development of industry, the need for greater attention to the economy of those areas and, above all, the great advent of technology.

Great strides have been made in the province of New Brunswick, both with the previous two premiers and our new premier who was elected last summer. We hope he will be able to follow in the footsteps of the previous two premiers.

Tonight I want to mention that employment insurance is not simply a relationship between the government and the workers of the country. It is a three way relationship. Employers pay into the fund 1.4 times the amount put in by employees. We have to ensure that it is a joint fund administered by the government of the country. There has to be a relationship among employers, employees and the government.

The fund was changed in the early 1990s and again in 1995-96. There are certain points we all must be concerned about. The hon. member brought out a good number of those points in terms of women, the intensity clause and seasonal workers about which we are so much concerned.

Tonight we should salute people who work in our seasonal industries. We talk about the people needed in the basic resource based industries such as fisheries, agriculture, forestry and other sectors. About 40% of the country's total gross domestic product in terms of exports is from basic resource based industries. We have to be sure the seasonal workers who participate in those industries are looked after adequately.

The intensity clause is one of the most difficult. Many members on this side of the House are concerned with the definite penalty against people who participate in seasonal industries.

As the hon. member indicated, an employee draws from the program for 20 weeks. Each time he draws after that he is penalized by 1%, going down eventually to 50%, which is a direct attack upon people who are mostly involved in seasonal industries. We too are concerned about that penalty or that intensity clause.

The employment insurance program has many good parts to it. For example, I mention Nova Scotia which has a very good program for people at the lower end of the economic scale. Families earning less than approximately $27,000 a year can receive a family supplement which will amount to approximately 80% of their earned income. That is a definite, positive aspect of the changes made in 1996.

We must also look at some government programs in terms of attempting to look at areas in need of more employment. We think of the former transitional jobs fund and, more specifically today, the Canada jobs fund. I see in the House tonight a number of members from New Brunswick. I think all of us from New Brunswick benefit from the Canada jobs fund.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

The problem is in my riding.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Madam Speaker, the hon. member's constituency has benefited more from the Canada jobs fund and the transitional jobs fund than any constituency in the province of New Brunswick. If he looks at the figures he will find that.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

That is not right.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Madam Speaker, he will have his opportunity. Hopefully he will give me mine.

The employment insurance program is under continuous review. We are attempting to look at some of the problems connected with people returning to the workforce after a period of being left out. We are looking at the fact that there are certain aspects of the program which will be brought to the attention of the minister. With them she would be able to come to the House to make changes to better improve the program for all Canadians.

The motion of the hon. member certainly needs to be amended because we might be led to believe that seasonal workers were left out of the program. Therefore I move the following amendment:

That the motion be amended by deleting all words after “immediate action to” and substituting therefor the following, “review employment insurance benefits for seasonal workers”.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The amendment is in order. Debate is on the amendment.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Reform

Maurice Vellacott Reform Wanuskewin, SK

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the concerns my NDP colleague has brought to the House. It is truly a very important issue that needs to be addressed by the government. We will go along and take some second thought on the amendment. I am not sure that it is an adequate response to the problem of the incomes of seasonal workers. I will relate some of the reservations I have about it. I acknowledge that it is an important issue and the member is to be commended for having raised it in the House this evening.

As was already said, it is a given that we have the reality of seasonal work in Canada. Certain businesses and industries in Canada have seasonal ups and downs regardless of the business cycle which means that fewer workers are needed at predictable times of the year. The result is that workers in those industries will apply for benefits at predictable times of the year on a repeated basis year after year.

Seasonal work is a reality in Canada, perhaps more so than in other countries because we have so many resource based industries compared to other countries around the world. As has been brought to our attention by the two previous speakers, the problem we have before us and the reason the motion is here today are because of the 1995 act and how it has affected seasonal workers. That is the reason we are debating this motion today. Seasonal workers are getting less in the way of benefits as a result of those changes to the unemployment insurance program introduced by the 1995 Employment Insurance Act.

The government member who spoke prior to me referred to the intensity rule which the act introduced. That rule in its first time coming into effect distinguishes between frequent and infrequent recipients of benefits under the EI program.

Frequent users of EI receive reduced benefits based on their previous use of the EI program. They are reduced by 1% when 20 weeks of benefits have been collected and may go as low as as 50%. They are not wiped out altogether but there is a significant 5% reduction depending on the frequency of previous claims. The lowest possible rate of 50% is in contrast with the standard rate of 55% for regular claimants. That has had an effect on real people, on Canadians, those who work in seasonal industries in Canada.

The 1998 EI monitoring and assessment report produced by the Department of Human Resources Development acknowledges that communities with high levels of seasonal employment were more likely to have industries that showed declining benefit levels.

What did the government intend to happen? What was the motive of the government in all of this? What did it hope to accomplish by means of this intensity rule?

It would seem that it hoped workers would move out of seasonal industries and seek employment in industries where they would be able to be employed year round. The reasoning is pretty simple. Since seasonal workers would get less in EI benefits, they would be in a position where they would seek employment that would not be seasonal, that it would have that effect upon them.

Seasonal workers are not doing anything different despite what the government assumed at that point. Unfortunately it did not have that effect on a wide scale. Most seasonal workers, at least during the time of the study that led to the 1998 monitoring report, said that the intensity rule would not affect their work patterns. That is their plain statement on the matter. When asked about their plans, they said that they had few employment opportunities outside of their existing seasonal jobs and that they would remain with their existing employment and continue to apply for EI despite the intensity rule.

There may be some different ways to deal with this but I do not believe we should go the route of what has been proposed today by my colleague from the NDP. There are arguments for leaving EI as it is if that is the only solution or proposal on the table.

First, Motion No. 222 would move EI away from pure insurance principles which the Reform Party supports for the employment insurance program. EI is supposed to protect workers against—and I underline it—the risk of “temporary involuntary unemployment”. The member who introduced this motion mentioned that, but I think we need to get the context here and underline that it is for those where there is risk and it is temporary and involuntary.

In the case of seasonal workers we are not talking about risk, will I or will I not. They well know that come that certain time of year, they will be laid off. There is that predictable pattern of unemployment. For this reason EI as an insurance program based on insurance principles is really compromised when workers come back year after year at the same time of year for benefits.

EI no longer functions as an insurance program, but rather it is a wealth distribution program. That is not to say that wealth distribution is not appropriate during a transition phase, but that is perhaps another debate for another day.

My point here is that the EI program as it was originally intended and as I quoted here would not be honouring true insurance principles if we used it to address the problem of seasonal workers.

The report of the Forget commission on UI stated on page 60: “Although it transfers money from the employed to the unemployed and to some degree from the rich to the poor, unemployment insurance is not a very effective income redistribution program”. There are other ways of doing it if that is our intent.

Second, Motion No. 222 would subsidize certain industries but not others. Companies that lay off workers at the same time every year have a huge benefit if those workers do not move away to find work elsewhere but stay in the area, collect EI and then are available to return to work when that work season begins again. This in effect means that such companies are being subsidized by the EI program.

If such companies were forced to pay higher premiums than other companies, then things might be fairer. Those companies might also be motivated to extend work seasons to avoid those higher premiums. That might be administratively difficult, I acknowledge.

Third is why we should stay as is as opposed to the motion of the member, unless there is some other proposal on the table. We do have an amendment to which we will have to give some thought and consideration. Some seasonal workers have not been as affected as regular workers by the 1995 changes. That needs to be brought to our attention.

Neither of the previous members made note of the fact that some seasonal workers have not been as affected as regular workers by the 1995 changes. In fact, the hours based system has actually helped some seasonal workers who work longer than the average hours per week, which is often the case with seasonal work. They work from sunup until sundown. They work long hours and they get lots of hours in over a short period of time. They are thus able to qualify for benefits in a shorter period of time. On the other hand non-seasonal workers who tend to work normal hours were not helped by the switch to the hours based system as some seasonal workers were.

Fourth, I would maintain the status quo or at least the present system as opposed to the motion under discussion here, because changing the rules for seasonal work might create an incentive for people to enter seasonal industries. We usually hear of the person who already has a seasonal job, but what about the person looking for a first job or looking to make a job switch? They might be more tempted to try to get a seasonal job than a long term employment option if they know that EI will supplement their income. Clearly we want some incentive in place that will make a person prefer the non-seasonal yearlong job. We need to have that in our EI program.

Can we affect seasonal patterns? I think to some extent we can over the course of time. Seasonal patterns themselves have changed over time. During the 1970s, seasonality in employment declined somewhat, primarily in the primary industries mainly due to the decline in the size of the agricultural sector relative to the rest of the economy.

Seasonal variability in unemployment has declined even more. In 1966 the difference between unemployment in the highest and lowest months was 46%. By 1980 the difference had declined to less than 26%.

We might ask how a government would go about affecting work patterns. One excellent proposal is that of experience rating. A fundamental reform which could help us is a proposal by Professor Jack Mintz contained in a taxation on business report. He talked about experience rating which relates to insurance premiums. This is used in the United States in cases where an insurance scheme penalizes those companies which lay people off more than the industry average. This is relevant to our situation today.

In a situation where there are many seasonal employees such as the forestry industry, a pulp and paper outfit which lays off more than the norm in that particular industry would see its premiums go up. This would create a disincentive to lay off people.

A couple of years ago I was struck by a situation in a Wal-Mart store in Maine. It hired a number of people before Christmas and then laid them off normally, but it hired people to do a variety of other things and kept them on in the long term.

We should pursue these types of possibilities in some of our other seasonal industries. It is doable. We need to use some creative minds in terms of our approach so that we go after experience rating as a possibility for seasonal workers.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to commend the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst for his motion. I think that the issue of seasonal workers is a real concern.

This is the third year of the intensity rule which penalizes seasonal workers, taking away 1% of their benefits every time they receive employment insurance benefits for 20 weeks. This means three years during which, in our ridings, the Liberals have condoned the unfair treatment of these people, who have earned these benefits through their hard work.

The motion, as it stands, is dynamic and interesting. We must change the intensity rule, the number of weeks where benefits can be paid out, the weekly employment insurance benefits and the number of hours to qualify. These four factors deeply influence the financial status of our seasonal workers.

Because of these requirements, young people and women who could have seasonal jobs are leaving some areas because they cannot work the 910 hours required to qualify. This is also true for our seasonal workers.

Most importantly, the law implies that these people have chosen not to work longer. That is what is left of the whole debate initiated by the Prime Minister when he called unemployed workers beer drinkers. Well, we have seen the consequences in the legislation. Today, a couple of weeks before Christmas, there are people who are wondering if they will have enough money to get through the holiday season and to survive until their next job in the spring.

The reason is not that there are fewer jobs than before, and the Liberals should understand that. Right now, we are in a period where the economy is strong but there are seasonal workers who have a job only during the summer. Because of restrictions in the EI program, either they qualify or they do not qualify, but the bottom line is that their annual income is lower than it was before the reform. This is totally unacceptable.

This proposal with regard to seasonal workers did not come only from opposition parties. It did not come only from the people we talked to on this subject. It was supported by the premiers, particularly those affected by the intensity rule that penalizes seasonal workers through a reduction of the number of weeks of benefits and the weekly amount.

Forestry workers who work hard but cannot work all year long find it difficult and unacceptable to see the government treat them as if they were lazy, especially when they do not have enough money to support their family. They then find that they do not have enough dignity to assume their responsibilities as family breadwinners and that is even harder on their self-esteem.

Farm workers live the same situation. In my town of Saint-Denis de Kamouraska and in all other villages, some must try to qualify, but ultimately they still may not receive enough money to support their family. The situation is serious because farms are the backbone of rural areas. It will last until that infamous rule is abolished. The Government of Canada is saying to seasonal workers that they do not deserve the same status as other workers. Yet during all the years when the plan was a valid one, they were allowed to earn an income.

We were happy to have those workers being employed, often for low wages, so that in the industrial urbanized areas, particularly in Ontario, people could earn a good income in the processing industries. However, there were no processing industries in our own areas.

In the meantime, people end up working in agriculture and forestry. There are also those who work in turf pits. I know families around Rivière-du-Loup in which the husband works at the turf pit and the wife works as a secretary. However, her job is also seasonal because the company hires her for only part of the year. They have a combined income of about $30,000 a year. At the end of the day we end up with the intensity rule, under which for every 20 weeks of EI, benefits are cut back from 55% of earnings to 54%, then to 53% and so on. This means that over three years almost all seasonal workers see their benefit rate reduced to 50%.

The consequences of that are absolutely absurd. In my area, between 1992 and 1998 the federal government invested, from year to year approximately $85 million less in the regional economy. That means that even if industries are very aggressive and manage to get $2 million or $2.5 million out of the Canada jobs fund, there is still an $83 million shortfall in the end. Those who rely on these industries and are seasonal workers do not benefit from that.

Faced with this situation, the federal government must respond quickly. Action is urgently required. The amendment the Liberal majority put forward earlier is not enough, in my opinion. It should be much more specific. I recall that at the first meeting of the Committee on Human Resources Development, the year following the 1997 election, there were members of the NDP, the Progressive Conservative Party and the Bloc Quebecois who asked that the first issue the committee were to consider be the EI reform.

The observations made today have already been made everywhere in our regions. The Liberal majority told us “This will not be on the agenda; we will not start on this right away.”

I do not like the amendment introduced by the Liberals because it could lead to “committee-itis” and we will end up with the same song and dance from the department. The minister has been telling us for some time now “We are going to review the reform. We will assess the new plan after one year and then we will act accordingly.”

A new minister is appointed and we get the same answer. We are now into the third year and soon enough it will be five years. Seasonal workers do not eat in the long term, they need to eat every day. They need rules providing them with enough money to feed their family when they are in between two jobs and retain their dignity.

This is what the federal government has failed to understand. I believe the amendment on the table is a sign the Liberal government has come to the realization that if it goes into an election with its employment insurance reform as it is, fewer liberal members will be elected in the maritimes and in Quebec, particularly in the areas concerned, and possibly in others too.

The liberal member said “There are three stakeholders in this: the government, the employers and the employees.” But the only thing the government has done so far is pocket the employment insurance fund surplus and pay down a part of the debt with it.

However, those who contributed, the employers and the employees, believe that $6 out of $18 billion going every year to fund something else than what it was intended for is highway robbery. It is embezzlement. This is what it looks like to them. This is what is being put directly on the table.

In light of all these issues, it seems to me that the valuable motion introduced by the hon. member should be amended. Therefore, I move:

That the following words be added at the end of the motion: “and that the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development review the situation of these workers at its next sitting”.

I am submitting this subamendment to the Chair to ensure that action will be taken in the short term. This amendment is supported by the hon. member for Portneuf and I hope that it will also get the support of the House. It would allow us to go beyond idle promises so that after two years all those who kept pushing to have this issue looked at by the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development would finally get some result as early as at the next sitting.

If the committee decides to sit tomorrow morning or the day after, it will not be a problem, we will be there. We will ensure that we can work on this issue.

I am urging the House to support the amendment and the subamendment so that seasonal workers can finally get justice. This is also an opportunity for the Liberal government to eliminate the terrible burden that it put on workers.

Seasonal workers are not lazy people. They want to work but the government has deprived them of the dignity associated with working. We must give it back to them.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the hon. member wish to submit a subamendment?

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I already did, but I can present it again: That the following be added at the end of the motion: “and that the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development review the situation of these workers at its next sitting”.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair has some reservations as to whether the amendment is in order. We will continue debate while the Chair considers the amendment proposed by the hon. member.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Angela Vautour NDP Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB

Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to thank my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst for giving us the opportunity today to discuss once again the serious problem of seasonal workers.

My Bloc Quebecois colleague who just spoke closed his speech with a reference to dignity. It is true that our seasonal workers have been stripped of their dignity. That happened some years ago already.

It happened the day that the Prime Minister of Canada, that same man who came to the riding I represent, then called Beauséjour, seeking votes. When he got back to Ottawa after campaigning in our riding, the first thing he told all the Canadians in the country is that he had been to New Brunswick where he had seen unemployed people bending their elbows in taverns. He said:

“In New Brunswick, seasonal workers are in taverns collecting EI”.

You can easily imagine what Canadians think of seasonal workers now. These words came from the mouth of the man who went after these same people to get voted into this House and to now be the Prime Minister. This gives us some idea of what kind of man is leading this country today. The people of New Brunswick could readily find a number of terms to describe him.

However, we have our hands full doing away with this perception and making Canadians realize that seasonal workers are not lazy people. If only hon. members could go to these plants, they would see that men and women there sometimes put in 100 or so hours a week for minimum wage, on their feet from morning to night, sunup to sundown, trying to earn a little money to take home.

The same thing can be seen in all sectors not just in New Brunswick. It is the same in any area of seasonal employment. First of all, it is not the workers who are seasonal, it is the work that is, or their communities, with their high unemployment levels.

Instead of trying to develop our regions, instead of trying to create more jobs, this government has taken away the only program that helped these people. The reform was well thought out by this Liberal government. It focussed on one particular group, the workers in areas of seasonal employment. They are the ones targeted.

This has created a situation that is quite desperate in some areas. We have a discriminatory clause on the intensity rule. We have all talked about it but nobody is doing anything about it. I do not see the Liberal government doing anything about it.

We do not hear enough about the divisor. Most of the MPs in the House probably do not know what the word means because they have never been on EI. Well some of us have collected EI cheques because we have needed to. The divisor is a serious problem because some people receive only $30 week. Before the last cuts to the program, they were receiving maybe $200 or $250 a week. This is what the new EI has done to these people. We have to recognize that in order to fix it.

How about the pilot project we are under? Practically the whole country is under this project and not under the real act because of the small weeks. We are not talking about that either. That has to be permanently correctly.

How about the zones? We could solve maybe 80% of the problems in some areas if we had a minister who would rezone the way it should be done. Let us put the rural communities together and the urban communities together. In Albert county, Petitcodiac and Salisbury, we have two national parks in one zone and another one in another zone. One group of workers in these parks can qualify with 420 hours while the other group of workers need 669 hours.

Let us talk about the duration for these two communities. In one community, the workers can receive 26 weeks of EI while in the other community the workers receive 15 weeks, but they are all in the same riding. How can this happen? It happened under this government.

We have to talk about the duration problem. We have people going with no incomes for up to 12 to 15 weeks. Can anybody here live with no income for 15 weeks? Why do we think that a person who has seasonal job can? It is unbelievable.

Let us talk about the Canada jobs fund. The Canada jobs fund can be very good if it is used right. The government likes to talk about abuse in the EI system but it forgets to talk about its abuse of the fund. I have to say that I have seen it work very well in my riding if it is done right. All we have to do is get the politicians who make it not right out of the picture. Let us just do it right. Let us let the MP recommend the project.

In one instance I did not recommend a project in my riding because I knew there was something wrong with it. Let us think for a minute what happened to it. Within a year it had folded and we lost the money. I had not recommended that project but the minister went over my head and gave funds to that group knowing it was not going to work. There was no plan. Little political favours like that cost a lot money. Those programs will work if we want them to work.

Since the last round of cuts, my riding alone has lot $52 million a year. New Brunswick has lost over a billion dollars in four years. That is a lot of money. That will not solve our problem. Our problem is high unemployment. We have to create the jobs. We probably will never create enough jobs for everybody to work year-round. We have to recognize that we have seasonal industries.

Employment InsurancePrivate Members' Business

6:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but the time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired. When this item comes up for debate again the hon. member will have three minutes remaining in the time allotted to her.

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business having expired, the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.