Debates of Dec. 2nd, 1999

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Oxford has a son who lives in my riding. He is depriving his son of a referendum on the Nisga'a deal.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

That is not a point of order.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my son is very supportive of some of the initiatives of the member for North Vancouver. He has written letters to him. I am quite aware of that. I also have a brother in Vancouver. I have known him for 68 years. He and I are at odds on many of these questions, the Musqueam leases being one and the Nisga'a agreement perhaps being another, although I have not discussed that with him fully.

The motions today are interesting. Most of them are frivolous; however, they do say that the bill will be changed to say “an act to implement” instead of “an act to give effect to”. I am not sure which is the more parliamentary term. I guess it does not matter very much since they both mean precisely the same thing in English.

When I first arrived here six years ago I did not know much about the Nisga'a or their land claims in the Nass Valley of British Columbia. I came to the House as the member representing Oxford County with a strong interest in the environment. I quickly had an opportunity to explore those interests as a member of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development.

As a member of that committee I had an opportunity to visit many of the northern regions of the country, places like Cambridge Bay, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, Resolute, Yellowknife and Whitehorse in Yukon. I spent some time in Vancouver and other parts of British Columbia, Kamloops, Okanagan, Shuswap and Vancouver Island, because, as the hon. member said, my oldest son and his family, my two grandsons, live there and I have a brother who lives there. I was able to learn a great deal about the incredible attachment of our native people to the land. Many of the northern environmental problems are also aboriginal problems.

As someone who cares about the environment, this was an attachment I was almost jealous of because I realized that no matter how much I learned, studied, travelled or used my training in the sciences I could never have the same spiritual connection to the land as native groups have across this great country of ours. I could, though, learn more about our first nations, work with them and for them to ensure their voices were heard. This would allow me to connect a little more deeply and a little more spiritually with our native people.

At this time I asked my party whip to move me to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, a committee on which I continue to sit as the vice-chair. It is a committee I enjoy. I relish the opportunity to learn more about those who settled, survived and lived in this beautiful, rugged, and at times forbidding land before European settlers arrived.

Over the past year I have learned a great deal about the Nisga'a agreement. I have studied it. I have talked to the people who negotiated it and those personally affected by its provisions. I have come to the conclusion that the agreement deserves to receive the approval of parliament and of all Canadians.

The national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Phil Fontaine, told our committee members just a week ago:

Notwithstanding the best attempts of reactionary forces, both in British Columbia, certain political parties and elsewhere, to describe the terms of the Treaty in inappropriate and misrepresentative terms, the truth is that its contents are fair, just and reasonable, not only because each and every part of the Treaty is defensible but because the very process of its negotiation was transparent, civil and comprehensive in a model of modern governance.

The Nisga'a treaty negotiations predate the British Columbia Treaty Commission process, which only began operation in 1993.

The federal government began negotiations with the Nisga'a in 1976. These negotiations were bilateral and progress on land related issues could not be achieved until 1990 when the provincial government formally joined the other two parties at the table.

From 1990 onward the negotiators conducted extensive consultations with the public and third parties. Advisory committees included the Kitimat-Skeena Regional Advisory Committee, made up of a broad range of community, local government, wildlife, fisheries, business, resource sector, and labour interests; the Nisga'a Fisheries Committee, made up of province-wide and local commercial fishing interests, processors, unions and Terrace sport fishing interests; the Nisga'a Forestry Advisory Committee, made up of the area's forestry companies and the Council of Forest Industries; the Nass Valley Residents Association, made up of the existing private property owners and residents of the Nass Valley, who told us personally that they were delighted with the Nisga'a agreement and supported it wholeheartedly; the Skeena Treaty Advisory Committee, made up of local government representatives from municipal governments and the two regional districts, Skeena-Queen Charlotte and Kitimat-Stikine; the Treaty Negotiation Advisory Committee and its sectoral committees, established in 1993 as a federal-provincial, ministerially appointed committee of 31 organizations which has sectoral committees for government, fisheries, lands, forest, wildlife and compensation; and the Certainty Working Group, which was established to review and discuss approaches to certainty.

Yet, the official opposition rails day after day that consultations among the people of B.C. and the Nass Valley were inadequate. I ask them now, which group was under-represented? Which voice was refused a hearing since 1990 with one of these groups? There have been more than 450 meetings before and since the agreement in principle was signed in March 1996. That is a meeting about every two days.

Between November 14 and November 19 I had the opportunity to go to British Columbia with the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, which held hearings on the Nisga'a agreement. While there we met with representatives of both sides of the debate. We also had to deal with a roomful of protesters who were asked by Reform members to disrupt the meetings. It was a difficult process, but I came away from those meetings even more convinced that adopting the Nisga'a treaty in this parliament is the right thing to do.

Reform members disagree with me, and that is their right. However, I ask them whether the Reform member of parliament for Skeena, which riding includes Nisga'a lands, has effectively represented the views of his constituents, the Nisga'a. Perhaps we should take the time to ask him how many times he visited and met with the Nisga'a tribal council, and how many times he held town hall meetings with the Nisga'a people. When we are finished asking him these important questions we may want to ask ourselves if this is effective representation. In my mind it is not.

How many of us have ignored over 5,000 people in our constituencies? It would be political suicide for most of us to do so, let alone shirking our duty as members of parliament for all of our constituents, whether they voted for us or not.

According to what the chief of the Nisga'a tribal council, Dr. Joseph Gosnell, told me and many others present at a breakfast meeting at the National Press Club, the member for Skeena met with the tribal council only once since his election in 1993, and I think it was in 1994. He could tell us that. That is one very short visit in six years. The visit was 30 minutes in length and he did not stay for lunch.

I am in favour of the Nisga'a treaty. I believe it is the right thing to do.

Day after day we hear members of the official opposition talk about how our native people want to be treated like other Canadians, how we are practising race based politics by making agreements with them. My answer is this. As a nation we must adhere to the principles for which we stand. It is fine to say that we must all be treated equally, but what if one portion of our society had their land taken, either by force or guile, had their children taken and placed in residential schools, had treaties signed and then forgotten? What of these people whom we have ghettoized to the point where their unemployment rate, suicide rate, drug abuse rate and infant mortality rate are far above the national average? Are we to say “Sorry. We will treat you just like any other Canadian now. There will be no assistance and you can enjoy the same rights and privileges as everyone else”? Or do we stand up, admit our mistakes, apologize for them and seek to assist our first nations in developing their communities, their infrastructure, their spirituality, their culture and their land to the point where they can become full partners in the Canadian dream? This is what Nisga'a does. I am proud of this agreement and I will wholeheartedly defend it in the House of Commons or anywhere else in the country.

[Louise Hardy, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, as a member of parliament and a member of the aboriginal affairs committee, I also travelled with the committee to B.C.

I do not think it helped parliament when the hon. critic from the Reform described the trip as a dog and pony show. I did not treat it as a dog and pony show and had in fact advocated early on last spring that it was important that the committee travel to B.C. because the treaty was so important in the area. Having come through a long negotiation and treaty process in the Yukon for self-government, I felt it was critical that we do go and hear from people in B.C.

Also, as a member of parliament, there were so many witnesses that I did not get on the list whom I advocated for and Reform members voted against them. It was a process to determine who we would put on the list. I think as a committee we did our best to hear from everyone. But to say that people were deliberately left off because they opposed the treaty is completely wrong. There were witnesses that I had proposed who were left off the list because there just was not room. It was a two way process. There were witnesses on both sides who did not get to be heard at all.

I was sitting here listening to the member for North Vancouver on a point of order talk about how the Reform Party is facing the tyranny of the majority and also speaking about what democracy is. We have decided on a democratic process in the country that we may not all agree with. I would prefer proportional representation myself, as a member of parliament, but we do not have that. We have a majority government. We have three other parties who support the treaty. At this point Reform is alone in opposing it.

There have been other times when the New Democratic Party has been alone in opposing government legislation. That is the democracy we face.

The comment made by the member for North Vancouver saying that Reform faces the tyranny of the majority is exactly what he is proposing for the Nisga'a people, that they should face the tyranny of a majority. These people, the first nations of the country, have faced the tyranny of the majority far more and in greater depth over this last century than we will ever imagine.

There is a very long and in depth paper on the history of discriminatory laws against first nations people. The discriminatory laws, as they are set out, infringed on their basic human rights.

I do not know if everyone here realizes, but there was a time on this continent when Indians were slaves. They were called Pawnee. It was perfectly all right under the British Empire for them to be slaves because they were Indian. They have been denied the vote. They have been denied property rights. They were denied the right to homestead. In fact, in B.C. there was a great scandal when an Indian tried to apply for land to homestead and was denied it. They have been restricted from the right to sell agricultural products. They have been restricted from the right to make a living. They have been restricted from a right to even write their own will. In fact if one was a woman one would face even worse conditions than anyone else. If a woman had a husband who died, she could not even inherit his property. If someone determined that one was a woman of poor moral character then she did not get anything at all.

I support the Nisga'a treaty because the Nisga'a people through incredible adversity have negotiated what they see as fit for them as a people. They have the support of their people to do that.

[An hon. member]

Not all of them.

[Louise Hardy, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Probably not all of them, but the majority of their people have voted that this agreement will give them a chance to determine their lives, their future and their government. There is room in the country for Nisga'a people to be Nisga'a and still be Canadians. There is no reason to fear the freedom of the Nisga'a people to determine what will suit them in their lives. I stand here to say I oppose the amendments made by the Reform Party because all it wants to do is slow down the process and deny these people the right to govern themselves. If they make mistakes, they will make them on their own merit and they will be responsible for their own mistakes. It will not be us who have nothing to be proud of when it comes to first nations people and telling them what is good or what is bad for them.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have been sitting in the House listening to the debate at the report stage of Bill C-9. Most of what the previous member who spoke said pertains to the Indian Act. I do not think there is anybody in the House—

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. He is such a good speaker and he was going to say such a good thing about the Nisga'a treaty, but I do not see any Liberals except for two who are listening to the debate. I would like to call quorum.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We have a quorum.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that intervention in regard to having a quorum in the House. After all, the government is supposed to listen, even though we know better. It has not happened in the House before. I do not expect it to happen now.

The previous speaker spoke basically on the Indian Act. I want to remind everybody who may be listening that the Indian Act, as we know it, has been strictly enforced by the Liberal government and by the previous Conservative government. The problem lies directly at their feet and at nobody else's. In regard to the Nisga'a agreement, nowhere in the agreement do I see that this will rectify the wrongs that have been done under the Indian Act.

I heard the previous government speaker talk about his travel to Vancouver and other parts of British Columbia. I live in British Columbia. I worked out of the New Aiyansh area in the Nass. I talked to a number of people there. I also had the opportunity and pleasure of having lunch with the Nisga'a chief and council and have met with them a number of times. We have politely agreed to disagree on this issue.

There are a number of concerns. I would also like everybody out there to understand that the hon. member for Skeena also has to represent many people in his riding. There is great concern in regard to the native populace, the Gitksan and the Gitanyow, about this so-called agreement. Their concern is that they are not being heard. They have claimed that parts of their land are being taken away. I can see nothing but ongoing confusion and ongoing law cases. As a matter of fact, I have come to the conclusion that the only certainty of livelihood in regard to the Nisga'a agreement will be the livelihood of a good living for the lawyers. I have absolutely no doubt that it will be an ongoing situation.

We also heard that this was the most studied and most heard piece of legislation in B.C. history. Let me give members an example of how the B.C. government worked with this. Very quietly it said is was going to hold consultations. There was absolutely no advertisement and no agenda. Nothing was put forward to the people of British Columbia so they would know who to get hold of or where to go for the hearings. When I found out about this I took the opportunity to advertise it in the local media in our constituency. They had no idea that this would be taking place. Through that advertisement, they were able to turn out for the hearings. Even the Government of British Columbia said the Salmon Arm turnout was the biggest it had in regard to the Nisga'a agreement.

Following up on that, we did a number of questionnaires and polls in the constituency of Okanagan—Shuswap on the Nisga'a agreement. Here are some of the results. I will read the questions so the people can understand.

Question one: “Do you believe the public has had an adequate opportunity to provide input into the Nisga'a treaty?”; 1,010 no, 106 yes and do not know 15.

Question two: “Do you believe that the people of British Columbia should have the right to vote on the principles of the Nisga'a treaty in a provincial referendum?”; 1,142 yes, they should have that right; only 92 voted no.

Question three: “How do you want your federal member of parliament to vote on this treaty in the House of Commons?”; 1,134 to vote against it; 91 in support; 8 to support if changes are made; 5 do not know.

That is a rough idea of what it is like in British Columbia in regard to the Nisga'a treaty and the ongoing debate. The people of British Columbia are very concerned with the lack of consultation with them and the unconstitutional move of not being allowed to vote on the Nisga'a treaty.

Before I go further in this debate, I want to go on record as saying that if this attitude of the government keeps up and if it thinks it has trouble now with the separatist talk and separatist movement in Quebec, it had better be well aware of the feelings in British Columbia right now, which are along those same lines. This is what I hear in British Columbia and it really concerns me. They are forcing the people of British Columbia to sit back and say that Ottawa really does not care what happens beyond those mountains, let alone west of Winnipeg. The people of British Columbia have a legitimate reason to have these concerns. They feel that if they cannot get legislation from the government that is beneficial for British Columbia, then why do they need this part of Canada to represent them. I have to question that myself.

I have a number of letters from my constituents with regard to the Nisga'a agreement. These are from people who were not allowed to be heard in the travelling dog and pony show of the Liberal standing committee on this matter. The Liberals said they debated, but they chose who would be heard.

I and I think everybody should have great concern over who was chosen. When the Liberals refused to listen to an ex-premier of British Columbia who sat in on the negotiations of the Nisga'a agreement when he was premier, when the Government of Canada refuses to allow that gentleman to sit in on these hearings and have a say, I think everyone in Canada should be concerned, not just us on this side.

We have heard from other members about how good the Nisga'a agreement will be. I have had the opportunity to speak to many Nisga'a who are not in favour of the agreement, particularly the women. They have grave concerns. I do not understand the NDP in the House not meeting with these people and listening to their concerns. They have real concerns about what could happen to them if the treaty goes through this way, if these land claims are to be furthered this way. They have grave concerns about what is going on here. I really wish they had the opportunity and time to talk to some of these people.

I have also talked to members of the aboriginal community who have actually been threatened if they showed up at these hearings. If they say anything, threats are made against them and their children. I have not heard that mentioned in the House.

When people ask me if I have concerns with regard to the Nisga'a agreement, I tell them that I have many and my constituents have many.

I have a letter from Mr. Hal Finlay. He says that the white paper that was presented by Prime Minister Trudeau and the then minister of Indian affairs, now the Prime Minister, in the early 1960s was on the right track. We have gone off that track. He has grave concerns about where we are going here with regard to the Nisga'a treaty.

In conclusion, I just want to stress to the House that the path the government is following on this is alienating the people of British Columbia. It should remember that and remember that I said it here.

[Reed Elley, Reform, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today and speak again to this very important issue, probably the most important piece of legislation that has come before the House maybe even in this century.

Some of my colleagues on this side of the House and in this party have talked today about the fact that as the official opposition we are the only party in the House that are standing against this legislation.

Sometimes people ask us why we are doing that. They want to know why we would stand against it when no one stands with us on it.

It is clear that there are times in one's life when one must take what might be considered an unpopular stand, one that perhaps may not win votes across the country and one that may engender hatred toward us, racial slurs, threats of violence and all kinds of things. They want to know why, in the face of all that, a party would take such an unpopular stand. We do it because we believe it is out of principle, the principle of fairness, the principle of equality and the principle justice. The former Premier of B.C. said that this agreement was a template for the many other agreements that are going to come along. If we do not take this stand now, I suggest things will not get better but will get a whole lot worse.

It has been my fervent wish that all British Columbians, indeed all Canadians, would have an opportunity to democratically state their opinion on the Nisga'a agreement. To date, only the Nisga'a people themselves have been afforded this opportunity. Even there it is not complete agreement by any means.

The government has tried to tell Canadians that the Nisga'a agreement is far too important and complicated for the citizens of B.C. to have a democratic vote. A lot of people would call this simply arrogance. The government prefers to keep its blinders on rather than listen to what the people of B.C., the people directly affected by this treaty, are saying to it.

I want to challenge, particularly the Liberal members from British Columbia, to listen to their constituents. I believe their constituents would like to say and are saying a lot of things but these members are not listening to them or hearing them.

The people of B.C. recognized long ago something that this Liberal government still ignores and fails to understand. The citizens of B.C. understand that the Nisga'a agreement will not solve the problems that are rife throughout the aboriginal system. They see the very real damage that this agreement will cause in British Columbia and, by extension, all across Canada.

The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is out of touch when he says that the people have already had their referendum when they elected MPs sitting in the House. Perhaps he would then convince the government House leader to make it a free vote and allow the members to truly vote on behalf of their constituents, particularly the Liberal members from B.C.

This is not the only example of the government's undemocratic ways. This treaty is not just about bringing equality to our native peoples. It is also about democracy and the misuse of it in the country. Let us consider how many times the House has had closure and time allocation invoked by the government. By my count, it is close to 60 times since the Liberal government came to power. It will soon eclipse Brian Mulroney's record.

We have also allowed the Prime Minister to have incredible power. The shift in power to the PMO from the House of Commons traces its roots back to the nemesis of western Canada, Pierre Trudeau. The current Prime Minister has continued to expand upon the flawed foundation that Trudeau built up from fuddle duddle, the one finger salute, the dreaded national energy program and now the Nisga'a agreement. Western Canadians fully understand what the Liberals think about them.

Naively, many people assumed that the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs' recent hearings would actually listen to the people of B.C. According to the member for Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, he stated “We are only out in B.C. because of a tactic by the Reform Party”. The Reform Party is proud that it forced the Liberal Party to actually go out to B.C. What is shameful is that the Liberal members cannot think for themselves and take the time to listen to the concerns of the people of B.C.

One of my constituents followed the committee process. He submitted his name to the clerk and asked to make a presentation. Everyone knows what the answer to that was. Even though he has worked for many years with native people in his capacity as an RCMP officer and could offer his own insights from a grassroots level, he was denied an opportunity to present his views or ask any questions of the committee.

I have known Mr. Ken Conrad personally for some years and I respect his opinion. I therefore want to put his brief into the record of the House of Commons today. Ken says:

I am 63 years of age and have been associated with native Indian people most of my adult life both here in B.C. and also in Saskatchewan. I have a great many close friends who are native Indians.

The current Reservation way of life has never worked and I see nothing in your current treaty negotiations which would change it. Native people have never owned any real property on Reservations, they have no hope of even owning the homes they live in. How can you expect anyone to have any sense of pride under these circumstances? Native people have always been at the mercy of their elected Chiefs and Council. If they vocally disagree with what is taking place politically on a reserve; they suffer the consequences.

At least in the past they could appeal to an outside agency in the provincial or federal governments. Under these agreements they will be at the mercy of a dictatorship. They will be forced off reserves when they find the political climate intolerable. They will be forced out of their homes rather than live under conditions which no other Canadian citizen would tolerate.

All this is an ill-conceived creation of the federal Liberal and provincial NDP governments. From all that I can gather from discussing these agreements with my native friends, your governments have made no effort to reach out to the grassroots natives who must live with this decision. The only people you have consistently consulted with are the persons who you deem to be leaders of the communities.

Do not use the excuse that they could submit their concerns direct to the Department of Indian Affairs. It is common knowledge that any adverse communication ends back in the hands of those being criticized. You have failed to communicate with these people directly and have lost their respect in any process which you are currently undertaking.

Your decision to move ahead with this treaty process will have grave consequences in other areas. I see adverse reaction to these special status Canadians already and it will continue to get worse.

The citizens of B.C. are questioning the process which you have rammed through without proper public discussion. I foresee a serious problem with racism, a problem that you and the B.C. NDP have created. You have made a very bad decision and unfortunately my children and grandchildren are forced to live with it.

I have taken the time to attend all public meetings (there were only two of them) which were available to me regarding treaty negotiations. The first was held in Mill Bay quite a number of years ago. At that time, I listened to the various presentations by both governments and native leaders and I was not impressed. There were too many uncertainties. What was shocking was the refusal of this committee of any public input. We as an audience were told that we could not give a submission and were only permitted to ask one question of the panel. I was completely outraged by this so-called information meeting. I did take the opportunity to ask my one allowed question and received a very ambiguous answer followed with the comment that I could discuss my question privately after the adjournment of the meeting.

The second occasion was a debate that attracted a large audience and one could see the serious concerns that were not being addressed by the panellists. The audience was not impressed by what they heard and became very vocal. The NDP representative did not seem too clear in his answers to such questions as cost to the taxpayers and the description of the type of government that would be controlling the reserves. He was vague on native Indian property rights. Instead of clarification he created even more questions to be asked for which he had no answers.

You have seriously underestimated the consequences of your ill-conceived action and I feel certain that there will be considerable unrest in B.C. as the general population start to understand more fully the mess your governments have created for us. I just hope that you have a plan in place to deal with these problems which I believe you have created.

The people of B.C. have been demanding a fair say on this matter. We need to return true debate back to the House. Let us begin now. I would ask that the government immediately take steps to bring forward a binding referendum on the Nisga'a agreement to the province of B.C. Let us try to bring democracy back to Canada.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my riding name was changed a couple of years ago. It was known as Victoria—Haliburton and has now changed to its official title to Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, recognizing the second largest riding in southern Ontario containing some 10,000 square kilometres. Together with the riding of Hastings, it makes up one-third of the land in southern Ontario. We do not cheer for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I want to thank the previous member for mentioning the fact that the committee travelled to British Columbia and had all party representation. It had some fine input from other members in other parties, in particular, the member for South Shore, even though he was verbally attacked by the members of the Reform Party who showed up to disrupt the meetings and cause dissension. There was a member of the Reform Party standing in the parking lot in Victoria with a bullhorn telling people to disrupt the meetings and do whatever they could to make the Liberals look bad. What they did was make themselves look bad. They showed their true faces. A lot of times they are frustrated with the facts. The fact is that we travelled to British Columbia. I have been there about 13 times now. It is a great province. My son even celebrated his first birthday there, despite all the heckling of the Luddites. The fact is that the people of British Columbia that I talked to, and I talked to people who oppose, do we take the Fraser Institute versus the dilatory—

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

I heard the hon. member refer to I think members of the Reform Party and indeed members of British Columbia as being Luddites. I would like to have the member retract it. The reason why those people were complaining is because they were not allowed to speak. Their democratic rights were being trampled upon by the government.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

No word is of itself unparliamentary. It is the form, the context and the tone. I would not rule the form, the context and the tone of the word Luddite in this instance to be unparliamentary.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, once again, a very wise ruling and one that recognizes the dilatory motions of the Reform Party to try to scuttle this agreement.

I went to British Columbia, as I said. We had some bad weather. We could not land in the airports where we were supposed to land. We had to travel by bus, but what that did was prove that one bad weather day in British Columbia is better than five good days in Ottawa. I love going to British Columbia. I am more than happy to relay to the House what actually happened, not what the Reform Party is talking about.

Let me quote from some of the people that appeared before the committee. Let me quote Mr. Bill Young, whose wife Norma and himself, and their company have registered fee simple to 160 acres of land in the beautiful Nass Valley. His take on the agreement is, and I quote:

Two, the access to our property is guaranteed by the laws of British Columbia and the provincial highways authority.

Well, does that put out an argument.

Third, concern regarding taxation is defined in the “Taxation” chapter, paragraph 1, page 217, which says our taxes will be levied and paid to the provincial government of British Columbia.

The fact that this third party negotiation and some kind of a nation that is going to appear out of the blue is just a bunch of hokey.

Let me quote from the presentation to the House of Commons committee by the mayor, Jack Talstra of the city of tariffs, right in the beautiful Nass Valley, the start of this area. He says:

We as local governments want treaty settlements to be certain and final, meaning that the final outcome of treaty negotiations will be a completion of the process of addressing outstanding first nations claims, and that in relation to the question of the aboriginal right and title, the treaties will bring finality and certainty to the greatest extent possible, recognizing that self-government for aboriginals is a dynamic, evolving form of government, as it is for local governments.

That, along with other presentations we heard, only strengthened our resolve that what this treaty does is take us out of the Indian Act and into a treaty process where fee simple rights are going to be granted and people are treated equally. I do not think there is anything wrong with being treated equally, but let me go to Professor Foster Griezic who made a presentation in beautiful Prince George. He said and I quote:

Nisga'a opponents favour assimilation, appear to reject the reality of history and prefer providing as little as possible for the Nisga'a and other first nations.

These are not my words. These are the words of the people who have appeared before us. The people who are against it, the Reform Party, in particular, question Nisga'a ownership of land, forgetting that when this occurred in 1887 a Nisga'a elder asked, and he is quoted:

Who gave the land to the Queen. This has always been and always will be Nisga'a land.

One Chief named David MacKay asked how the government could say “We will give you so much land” when the land is already ours. The Nisga'a own the land. We are not giving them back something. We are recognizing their rights as human beings to have fee simple property and to act as a local government. Coming out of municipal government where you deal with the rights of individuals and people who, God help them, are able to actually own their own land, I do not see anything wrong with that. Would this not be terrible to actually let people own their own land and be able to build a house on a piece of property and own the land that is underneath it?

As a former real estate agent, I find it passing strange that the Reform Party would be against that. Is it against fee simple? Is it against people being treated equally? Is it against everything? It voted against everything to do with native Canadians in the House and now it is going to tell us it is going to make everybody equal and everything will be wonderful.

Let me talk to the presentation given in Terrace, B.C. by another band who said: “Our traditional territories cover approximately 13,000 square miles of the northwest portion of British Columbia, including the areas of Terrace and Prince Rupert. This nation compromises approximately 10,000 members. They think in here that we are neighbours with the Nisga'a and we have a common border between the Skeena and the Nass watershed”.

They stood in 1966 with the Nisga'a to enter into a very historical and traditional ceremony. They stand with them. That is contrary to what we have been hearing here.

Once again they talk about the Nisga'a treaty bringing many benefits to northern B.C. It will enable the Nisga'a to work with other jurisdictions to improve the quality of life for all northern British Columbians. Their direct assistance with education, health, economic and general community development issues will be positive.

We know that negotiations between third parties have taken place for a period of years. An agreement has been reached, the Nisga'a have ratified it and British Columbia has ratified it. Now it is the responsibility of Canada to accept and finalize the agreement reached in good faith between the parties.

If we go to the comments of Chief Phil Fontaine, he said:

If there is a disagreement among natives, if there is a disagreement among aboriginals, let the chief of the Six Nations go and negotiate with the people that are involved.

Not the Canadian government, not the Reform party, definitely, and certainly, to a process that they themselves can best work out through their treaty negotiation that has carried on for thousands of years. They have a way of life that may be a little different than what the Reform Party wants, but they have a way of life that was established long before we as white people came to Canada.

Do not take my word for it, go to the B.C. Federation of Labour, a membership made up of more than 40 affiliated unions representing over 700 locals. It speaks on behalf of 450,000 working people in British Columbia. The federation is the single largest organization representing workers' interests in the province.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

What do the B.C. Liberals say?

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

I will come to that. I am being heckled here about the B.C. Liberal/Reform Party headed by Gordon Campbell, the B.C. Liberal/Reform member who swims from a very shallow gene pool when it comes to trying to get votes.

Bill Vander Zalm, the hero, the big reform guy out there in B.C. endorsed this. Now, flip flop, flip flop; it is worse than Stornoway. It is just another big flip flop by the Reform Party and Bill Vander Zalm. Get real. Bill Vander Zalm, man, that is sad. What people will not do in a leadership for votes. Where are they? They are running around to every camera. I will read this quote:

It is especially important now for the labour movement to discuss the Nisga'a Agreement everywhere we can since David Black, who publishes 60 community newspapers in B.C., has given instructions to his editors to publish only editorials opposing the settlement.

I saw a member of the Reform Party's research department trying to find a Globe and Mail this morning so—

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I request a quorum count.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. member feels there may not be a sufficient number of members to hear the pearls of wisdom coming from the member opposite so he has called quorum.

And the count having been taken:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We have quorum.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to disappoint my friend that there are enough people here who actually want to listen, that he is not alone even though all his people have abandoned him in trying to not have a quorum. I understand those dilatory type motions they have.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether you are giving me the V-sign for victory or whether I have actually come to the end of my term here, so this will be my wrap-up.

Since 1993 when the B.C. treaty process was launched, treaty negotiations have been wide open, the most open and accessible process of its kind that the treaty commission is aware of. That is from British Columbia. That is what British Columbians think. They do not think of the three Rs of parliament that the Reform Party brought—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Resuming debate, the hon. member for South Shore.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand in the House today to speak at the report stage of Bill C-9. There has been a lot of work done in committee and a lot of debate in the House. There has been a lot of information put forth and certainly a lot of misinformation put forth. It is very difficult, but it is an interesting challenge to discuss this treaty with most of the members of parliament in this place and in other places where the committee has been.

The point that needs to be made and made consistently over and over again is that this is a very important piece of legislation, that it will be one of the major pieces of legislation to dictate and formulate policy in the treaty process in this country as we continue down the road of negotiation and treaty making. Although this is not a template, there are certainly many areas in this treaty that one would wish to be a template for other treaties.

It is important for the public and Canadian citizens at large to understand those areas that the Reform Party has spoken to on many occasions and that other members of the House have spoken to. One of those areas is whether the Constitution of Canada will prevail, and it certainly does prevail. Another area is whether the charter of rights and freedoms will prevail, and it certainly does prevail. And on and on it goes.

We could continue to debate single and numerous issues but I have listed a few. I was able to stand in the House on several occasions and debate this treaty. There were a few times after I had looked back over what I had said that I noticed I had actually missed a couple of points. It is important that we get all the points out there so everybody can understand them.

First I will speak to the areas of the agreement where Nisga'a laws will prevail to the extent of inconsistencies with federal and provincial laws. I have heard a lot of chest pounding and a lot of discussion and debate about the fact that there are 14—some days it is 14, some days it is 17—areas where Nisga'a law will prevail. Let us take a look at those areas.

There are no areas of exclusive jurisdiction for Nisga'a government. Instead Nisga'a laws are required to meet the minimum standards of federal and provincial laws except in the following areas. The Nisga'a government will be able to establish laws on Nisga'a lands concerning administration, management and operation of Nisga'a government. I do not think the world is going to come to an end on that one. I do not think the earth will crack open and people will be tumbling down this great chasm never to be seen again.

They control Nisga'a citizenship now. On the preservation, promotion and development of Nisga'a culture and language I do not think there is a hidden agenda. I do not think there is anything in it so far that I have read to members of the House that will significantly change the country of Canada that we all live in.

On the use and management of Nisga'a lands, who should be in charge of Nisga'a lands but the Nisga'a themselves in the same way that anyone who owns fee simple property has responsibility and ownership of that fee simple property? On planning and development of Nisga'a lands including operation of a land registry and expropriation, the same laws are due to any municipality.

The agreement refers to possession and management of assets other than real property, provision of health services, authorization and licensing of aboriginal healers, and child and family services on Nisga'a lands. I have made the point several times but I think it deserves to be made again that it is fairly clearly stated in the Nisga'a final agreement that the Nisga'a laws regarding children and families cannot be less than the provincial laws that are already in place. They can be greater than. They can be more beneficial and more protective of families and children but they cannot be less beneficial or less protective of families and children.

On adoption of Nisga'a children, pre-school to grade 12 education on Nisga'a lands of Nisga'a citizens, post-secondary education on Nisga'a lands, devolution of the cultural property of Nisga'a citizens who die intestate, federal or provincial laws will prevail. Other areas included are public order, peace and safety, regulation of traffic and transportation on Nisga'a roads, design, construction, repair, demolition of buildings and structure, solemnization of marriages within British Columbia, provision of social services, health services, prohibitions and conditions for sale, possession and consumption of intoxicants on Nisga'a lands, and emergency preparedness and emergency measures.

Except for adoption, social services and solemnization of marriages, the Nisga'a government will only be able to exercise its power on Nisga'a lands. For the three areas I mentioned there is an obvious need for laws to apply outside Nisga'a lands.

A number of fallacies have also been mentioned with regard to the Nisga'a final agreement. I have spoken about them at length in earlier debate and I have mentioned some of them already today. The application of the Canadian constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms are areas that need to be discussed and explained in a rational and straightforward manner with extensive and substantive debate. The issues should be raised, listed in priority, listed in order, discussed and explained, and then we should move on.

For instance, there will be no taxation without representation, which I have heard time and time and time again in the House. I think the record would show that every Reform member of parliament who spoke to this issue stated somewhere in his or her speech that there would be taxation without representation. That is patently untrue. There is no provision for that. It will not happen.

The taxation chapter states that the Nisga'a Lisims government may make laws in respect of direct taxation of Nisga'a citizens on Nisga'a lands. If a non-Nisga'a person purchases a parcel of Nisga'a land, that person will pay taxes to the provincial government rather than to the Nisga'a Lisims government. It is true that non-Nisga'a people will not be able to vote in elections for the Nisga'a Lisims government, but in areas where their interests are affected non-Nisga'a people will be able to have input and participate on boards.

It should be noted that there are hundreds of thousands of citizens, permanent residents and landed citizens who pay municipal, provincial and federal taxes and are not given the right to vote.

The very small minority, the 90 plus non-Nisga'a residents who live on Nisga'a land will not be taxed by the Nisga'a government. They do not have the right to vote for that government although there are provisions that could possibly change in the future. They will not be taxed by that government. I heard a member on the other side saying that perhaps that is not correct.

Obviously there is a fair amount of work required to get through the Nisga'a final agreement. There is a lot of reading but it is not that complicated. It is very straightforward. I would recommend that before those members stand in the House to vote against the agreement they should read it. That is one recommendation I would like to make.

That the Nisga'a final agreement diminishes the rights of non-Nisga people is patently untrue. On the contrary, they will have far greater input than currently allowed under the old Indian Act.

One of the best points about the treaty, one of the issues that makes it work, is that the Nisga'a will no longer be covered by the Indian Act. They will come out from under that archaic and perhaps racist piece of legislation. They will have their own laws, laws similar to those of any other municipality, with some quasi-provincial applications and some quasi-federal applications. They will become, if I can use the term, full and equal citizens before the law and full participants in the Canadian economy. They will receive the benefits that accrue from it.

I also had the opportunity to travel in British Columbia. Regardless of what some members in the House have said, I was not dragged kicking and screaming to B.C. I voted to go to B.C. I was happy to go to B.C. and I would certainly go back.

There is nothing to be ashamed of in this piece of legislation. There is a lot to be explained. It is the job of the government to provide that explanation and part of the explanation is travelling to B.C. and speaking to all those who want to appear before the committee. Unfortunately everyone who wanted to appear before the committee was not able to be heard.

I appreciate having had the opportunity once again to speak to this important subject.

[Ghislain Fournier, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will begin by stating that the amendments proposed this morning strike me as useless, to say the least. They are not in the least intended to improve the bill, only to delay it being passed.

The number of amendments proposed by Reformers suggests to me that their sole objective is to slow down the process leading to the passage of Bill C-9. My colleagues and myself cannot endorse such action.

We support the Nisga'a agreement overall. Now that the committee deliberations are over and the bill has been thoroughly examined, we do not want to see it held up. It was important for a number of elements raised by the Nisga'a agreement to be discussed. But second reading, coupled with the committee meetings that were held in British Columbia, leads us to the conclusion that we have been able to examine the bill properly and that amendments are not appropriate.

I hardly need to reiterate that the Nisga'a final agreement was duly endorsed by the three parties that negotiated it. The Nisga'a nation gave majority approval to it in a referendum on November 19, 1998.

The Government of British Columbia signed and approved it on April 22, 1999 with the passage of Bill 51. As for the federal Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, she ratified it this past May 4.

All that is left is the passage of Bill C-9 for them to finally have the necessary tools to develop as a nation. The Nisga'a are most anxious to see this happen, and they deserve it. They have been at the negotiating table for nearly 25 years.

Since the arrival of the first Europeans in the Nass Valley, the Nisga'a nation has attempted to negotiate on numerous occasions and to sign a treaty relating to their land claims. In the mid 1880s, aboriginal leaders started making representations to the authorities. However, their efforts met with no success for several decades, because the leaders at the time refused to recognize the aboriginal titles to the land they were claiming.

Following written and verbal claims, official meetings and court proceedings, especially in the Calder case in 1973, they managed to establish the likelihood of ancestral claims to these lands and the need to negotiate to establish their ownership.

In 1976, the federal government began negotiations with the Nisga'a tribal council. In 1990, British Columbia joined the negotiations. In February 1996, the three parties reached an agreement, which was finalized in August 1998 with the signature of the final agreement.

This agreement therefore puts an end to over a century of claims. It puts an end to many years of claims by this nation regarding its ancestral rights over land in the Nass Valley. It means a settlement of the land rights of the Nisga'a and a lessening of the economic uncertainty over the ownership and the use of the lands and resources in the region.

So, Bill C-9 is the last stone needed to give effect to the tripartite agreement among the Nisga'a, the Government of British Columbia and the Government of Canada. We want to reiterate once again the Bloc Quebecois' support for the agreement and its pleasure at participating in this historical moment for the Nisga'a.

The type of amendments proposed by the Reform members do not improve the bill in any way. Right from the outset, Reformers said they would do everything in their power to delay implementation of the agreement. With the amendments they are now moving, that is exactly what they are doing.

Given the nature of the bill to give effect to the Nisga'a final agreement, we feel it is parliament's role to debate, approve or reject the bill, not to amend the proposed agreement. I repeat, it has been duly approved by the three parties that negotiated it.

In fact, under the provisions of clauses 36, 37 and 38 of Chapter 2, the agreement may not be amended without the consent of the Nisga'a—the Nisga'a of British Columbia, obviously—and of the federal government. Amending the bill would, in our view, be a show of paternalism that we want no part of.

That is why the Bloc Quebecois will not be commenting on each of the amendments moved by Reformers.

We would simply remind the House that the Bloc Quebecois supported the main recommendations of the Erasmus-Dussault commission, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, which proposed an approach to the concept of self-government based on recognizing aboriginal governments as having jurisdiction over how their people were governed and their well-being.

In addition, the entire report was predicated on recognizing aboriginal peoples as autonomous nations occupying a unique position in Canada. The Nisga'a final agreement fully reflects the spirit of the conclusions and recommendations of the Erasmus Dussault report, and therefore constitutes a positive step toward a healthier redefinition of relations between governments and the aboriginal nations.

The majority of the Nisga'a, or 61% of the eligible voters, voted in favour of this agreement, and we acknowledge their will in this. The agreement represents a compromise approved by the people. It is the result of close to 25 years of negotiations. It clearly reflects the will of a nation.

It is not a one-size-fits-all model. The first nations are very different one from the other, and there is no single way of negotiating that could meet the needs of all aboriginal peoples. It took many years to reach this agreement, and it would be unrealistic to think that all such agreements will follow a similar path. There may, however, be some similarity in the paths followed by other nations and, in our opinion, this constitutes a very positive step toward improved relations between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people.

We believe that the Reform Party's opposition is based on an erroneous concept of Canada's political history. No matter what they cost, they want all citizens to be treated on what they consider an equal footing, but they are on the wrong track. By so doing, they are completely closing their eyes to the particular characteristics of aboriginal issues. Equality does not equate with justice, and justice is what must be defended when culture, language and traditions are involved.

Recognition of the right to self-government is recognition of the right of aboriginal people to possess the tools required to develop as a nation. The Reform wants to give them nothing more than the powers of a municipality, while retaining federal control over all of their decisions. How could the Nisga'a accept having decisions affecting their daily lives and their culture entirely the responsibility of Ottawa?

The Reform is refusing to understand the realities of aboriginal peoples and their culture distinctiveness. They want to see a uniform vision of Canada at any price.

I will close by stating that the Bloc Quebecois supports Bill C-9, and opposes the amendments presented by the Reform Party.