Debates of Feb. 18th, 1999

Transfer Payments

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have invested $2 billion for this year and next year. We have invested another $500 million into research and development and so on. This is exactly what the NDP was asking for. Just like the Reform Party, it cannot take yes for an answer.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, two tier or not two tier, that is the question. Before this budget Ottawa paid 11 cents for every health care dollar. After the budget—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order. The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, they do not want to deal with the question of two tier or not two tier. Before this budget Ottawa was paying 11 cents of every health care dollar. After the budget, five years later it will be up to 12 cents, 1 cent more. Meanwhile, citizens are paying 30 cents on every health care dollar. Why will the government not admit that it is following the lead of the Reform Party?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there are reasonable NDP leaders. The Premier of Saskatchewan said he is in agreement with us. The minister of finance of B.C., another New Democrat, said that this is a good government. And then there is this complaining group in the corner. To be or not to be? I will take those who get elected and into government rather than the perpetual third party of Canada.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I made a mistake. It is the fourth party, not the third.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, when listening to the finance minister I am often reminded of that old Mark Twain adage “lies, damned lies and statistics”.

I am quoting Mark Twain but it is up to the public to decide. Will the minister admit that his health care budget will only bring us up to 1995 levels by 2004?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the budget put out two days ago was the largest single investment that has been made by a federal government in health care in over two decades. In addition, the investments in health care research are the largest that have been made by a federal government in over two decades. Essentially what the government did in this budget was make it very clear that the federal party that created medicare is going to stand behind it for generations to come.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the minister that he took the single biggest swipe at health care in the history of this country. Maybe the minister is in the black but unfortunately hospitals and health districts in province after province are deeply in the red. Given this accumulated debt imposed on the provinces by this radical surgery, can the minister still claim this new money is going into patient care, or is the money simply going into paying off past debts that he inflicted on these jurisdictions?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, as the member should know, if he listened to the budget presentation, the $3.5 billion available immediately to the provinces is available at their discretion to solve whatever problems they deem fit. That money has been made available and is part of an $11.5 billion investment, the single largest investment of this government and, as the member just heard, the single largest investment of any government in two decades.

National Defence

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we all want to protect the lives of innocent Kosovars but we also have the responsibility to protect our own troops. Let us talk about our troops in Macedonia. They have just received their flak jackets, they have been forced to eat raw meat, they have to beg for their food from the French and they were recently assigned axe handles to beat off the wild dogs.

Why is the defence minister sending our troops into a war zone with only axe handles for protection?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I would not believe any of that. I would believe that what we will do is ensure the proper protection of our troops.

If our troops go into Kosovo, and that has not been determined yet, they will be going on a peacekeeping mission. They will be going there only after the two parties reach an agreement. The conditions under which our troops will go in will help to ensure their safety.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is there are 62 members of the Canadian forces in Macedonia. They are ill equipped. They cannot do their jobs adequately. This government and this minister have the responsibility to look after them.

I am asking the defence minister again why he is sending our troops into harm's way and not giving them the proper tools with which to protect themselves.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, they are not being sent into harm's way. Those who were in the former republic of Macedonia are in fact there to help in an extraction force that would help to take our verifiers out of Kosovo if that is necessary. But they are there in an engineering capacity and in a medical capacity. They are not actually going into Kosovo at all. They are there in a supporting role. They are in fact quite safe and secure.

The Budget

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if population is a good criterion, synonymous with fairness for all people in Canada, why is it that the people in Quebec have only 19% of federal investments, only 20% of federal purchases of goods and services whereas they represent one quarter of the population?

Is it because, for the Liberals, the population criterion is proper and fair when it puts Quebec at a disadvantage?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the poor member is really out to lunch.

Under the labour market development agreement, with 24% of Canada's population, Quebec receives 28% of the expenditures. For immigrant settlement services, Quebec receives 34% of spending. For Technology Partnerships Canada, with 24% of the population, Quebec receives 53% of spending. From the Canada Development Bank, with 24%—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is taking us for a ride.

Will he recognize that, as far as cuts are concerned, in the past four years, 39% of federal cuts have been made in Quebec? However, when it is time to give back, population size is the criterion. That is the reality.

Will he acknowledge that, had the federal government spent as it should have on research and development, goods and services and regional development, Quebec would not be getting equalization payments today, but would be making them to the other provinces in Canada?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I will continue and give other examples.

From the Canada Development Bank, with 24% of the population, Quebec receives 37% of the loans and guarantees. From the Canadian foundation for innovation, with 24% of the population, Quebec receives 33% of the funds allocated. From the Canada Medical Research Council, with 24% of the population, Quebec receives 32% of the money spent.

This is the fault of the federal government.

Health Care

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what would you call a medicare system where desperate patients have to fly to the U.S. because they cannot get care at home?

One of the best new businesses in Canada is a business selling waiting line insurance.

You would call that two tier health. You would call that Liberal medicare.

Why does the Prime Minister not just get up and admit that is his legacy to the Canadian people, two tier health care, Liberal style?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, what the member has just described in fact is the Reform Party's policy, as clearly articulated by their leader to the Ontario Hospital Association, when he said, “We would enable the provinces to experiment with such options as user fees, deductibles and private delivery of services”.

I say to him and to all members, this party and this government will never permit that in Canada.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the rhetoric is fine but the facts are quite different.

If Canada has hit the debt wall, they have an excuse for this.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.