Debates of Oct. 17th, 2000

Information Commissioner's Report

[The Deputy Speaker]

The Right Hon. Prime Minister.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is a well-known process. We in my office, as in any other office, are following the precedents that have been established since the law was passed by parliament.

Now they want to move even further. They want to have, for example, my schedule. Perhaps I should give it. Perhaps I should not give it. However, I think there is some communication within an administration that belongs to the ministers and the Prime Minister. If the commissioner feels that he has the right to have it, he can apply, we will go to court, and the court will decide.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the information commissioner says that the Prime Minister set the worst record of any minister in 17 years. Looking at this, it is no secret the Prime Minister does not want to show off a recent poll which says Canadians think he is the most arrogant and untrustworthy of all political leaders.

He can restore some small faith to Canadians if he would admit that the $25 billion he ripped out of the health care system went to cover the $21 billion that he wasted in HRD. Will he admit that?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, he is all over the map. We decided to give good government to Canadian people. I have been a member of parliament since 1963 and I have always done my job in the proper way.

I always come to the House of Commons. I always reply to questions asked of me. I am always talking to the press. I have been the same and I am still the same. However, when the Leader of the Opposition makes accusations he should make accusations that are precise and not make big statements like that. That is why his credibility is going down every day.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, if the Prime Minister wants precise, it is here in the information commissioner's report: the worst record in 17 years.

If he will not admit that the information commissioner was telling the truth, if he will not take responsibility for wasting $3 billion a year which could have gone to health care, will he at least support the Canadian Alliance position on health care to add a sixth principle to the Canada Health Act that will guarantee funding at the federal level so that no federal government ever again could rip $25 billion out of the health care system?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have Bill C-45 before the House today that will guarantee money for the provinces for five years and the opposition is blocking the process to pass the bill.

If the Leader of the Opposition has any authority over his party, he will get up on his feet and say that the bill will be passed this afternoon.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, two important reports have been released in the last 24 hours: the report of the information commissioner and the report of the auditor general. These two reports show us just how democratic this government really is.

How can the Prime Minister ask the public to trust him when the information commissioner is making very serious accusations about the attempts by the Prime Minister's own department, the PCO, to control information in order to avoid accountability?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have disclosed more records over the past two years than ever before, thousands and thousands of records.

But the law provides that some records, such as those for internal use within each minister's office, may remain privileged, and this has been respected by all information commissioners over the years. I think that ministers are entitled to speak with their staff without having to release the content of such communications to the public.

If the commissioner feels that the government has acted contrary to the law, he has a recourse, but we are doing exactly what has been done since the law was first passed.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this government has been forced to disclose records. It holds the all-time record for RCMP investigations. More investigations have gone on in the riding of this Prime Minister than in the ridings of any of his predecessors.

How does he explain that the PCO, his own department, is challenging almost all the commissioner's powers, that it is ignoring information requests and that senior PCO officials are refusing to answer questions, probably under his orders, even under oath?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the member must know that the reason there are investigations is because we have asked for them.

In the case involving the riding of Saint-Maurice now before the courts, it was my office that called the police to inform them that there seemed to be some abuses.

The fact of the matter is that we have tabled thousands and thousands of documents and our present information policy is the one that has been around since 1979.

I repeat that there are records and communications that must remain privy to the government.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the PM has a short memory.

In the Placeteco affair, his government attempted to conceal all of the facts and it was the Bloc Quebecois which demanded an investigation.

The PM can give all the fine speeches he wants. Let him stand up and tell the public what his explanation is for the statement by the information commissioner, referring to him and his cabinet, that this was the first time in close to 17 years a minister has refused to co-operate in an investigation by the information commissioner. He is the one the commissioner is referring to.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I shall repeat again what I have already said.

Under the law, there are certain documents which are privileged information for the administration of a government, a minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office. There are others that are privileged information for MPs. There are certain things that belong to MPs, that relate to the operation of their offices. They do not want everyone seeing what goes on within their offices. The same goes for everyone.

I am entitled to speak with my staff and my ministers and to keep information just for myself. This is normal, and there have never been as many documents made public as there were in 1999 and 2000.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is a very sad turn of events.

Is it not sad to see that the key Liberal value used by this government as its mandate comes to an end is the control of information and thus of democracy? Is this not sad?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is focussing on just one part of the report. The commissioner also says that he congratulates certain organizations for their excellent co-operation.

The problem of concern to me is that they want to have access to everything that goes on in my office.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

In your riding.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

No, no. I believe I am entitled to communicate with the people who work with me without having to make public all the documents and all the conversations.

This is how a government is run. MPs do the same. They would be the first ones to complain if we went to see what goes on their offices every day.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the auditor general gives the government a failing grade in meeting its obligation for aboriginal health. Higher infant mortality, lower life expectancy and chronic disease are rampant. Suicide rates are astronomical.

Why has the government ignored 65% of the auditor general's recommendations from three years ago for meeting its health obligations to aboriginal Canadians?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, over the last 10 years the health status among the aboriginal population has improved, with reduced infant mortality and longer life expectancy, which is not to say there is not a great deal more to do.

We are grateful for the recommendations the auditor general has made in his most recent report. We take encouragement from the fact that the auditor general has pointed out that we have made progress since his recommendations in 1997. There remains more work to do and we are committed to doing it.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, if the health minister is so grateful for the auditor general's recommendations, why has he ignored 65% of them?

In 1994 Canadians were horrified to learn of the desperate conditions at Davis Inlet, particularly substance abuse and suicide among youth. The government promised urgent assistance, relocation and improved living conditions.

Six years later the suffering continues. The government's failure to address the underlying problems leaves the residents of that community at grave risk. Is the government prepared to sacrifice another generation of aboriginal youth?

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I want to inform the member that we have been working very closely with community members of Davis Inlet.

We are in the process now of moving a whole community, which takes a significant amount of time, effort and planning. We are on track to move a community out of a very desperate situation into a brand new place to live with brand new housing, sewer and water, all the different amenities people in Canada take for granted.

I hope that will be what the member is expecting, because that is what the aboriginal people in Labrador and the Innu are expecting.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the report of the auditor general revealed today a growing pattern of deals made in secret by the government, whether they have to do with specs that are changed or offices in Sydney or whether they have to do with approvals for HRDC grants that are given directly by the minister in the riding of the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

May I ask the Prime Minister one specific question about a deal made in private? Why was the $100 million expenditure on Downsview kept from parliament?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for Canada Lands, the creation of that corporation was according to the rules on creating crown corporations.

That corporation will report to parliament through an annual report of Canada Lands. That report will be available to the House committees. Therefore all parliamentarians can question the officials on the operation of that corporation. Everything is in the open.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the minister says everything is fine. He followed the rules he wrote. The rules he wrote said he could hide a $100 million expenditure from the House of Commons but he would let parliament look at it after the money was gone. That is perverse and that is wrong.

Will the Prime Minister of Canada undertake now first to change those rules his minister hides behind and, second, to stop this pattern of secret deals that betray the public interest of Canada?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, Canada Lands was built under an act of the Parliament of Canada. This corporation is obliged to report to the House of Commons in an annual report, as the minister said.

This is all according to the law passed by parliament. If the hon. member does not want to have a crown corporation of this type, he should say so.

We think that Canada Lands is a good operation at arm's length from the government, so there will be a minimum of intervention in its operation.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government is trying desperately to look good on all kinds of fronts.

The HRD minister has assured Canadians time and time again that there were very few grant overpayments at HRD. The auditor general disagrees with that. Only 76% of the more than 17,000 active files, that is, less than one-half of 1%, were subjected to departmental review. That one-half of 1% generated 11 police probes.

Why did the minister avoid the other 16,900-odd files? Were there not enough RCMP officers to go around for the investigation?