Debates of Feb. 14th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, as far as I know, letters between a member of parliament and ministers about projects, not about individuals, are not subject to the Privacy Act.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the human resources minister has a peculiar sense of urgency.

In most circumstances the news of a $1 billion bungle would send shock waves through any organization. Immediate action would be taken, accounts would be frozen and people would be hauled up on the carpet. Not the human resources minister. She just gets upset if she cannot find a chequebook.

Why should Canadians have any faith that this minister will solve the problem?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers again to a billion dollars. Members opposite use figures very easily.

As I said to the House, there were 37 cases that needed further investigation and we have received more reports. Now, out of the $33 million, we have received final reports for $12.5 million. We have a number of reviews completed, with a total amount in overpayment of $251.50. They are still the same figures.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is hard to imagine being so cavalier about a billion dollar bungle.

At the same time as the human resources minister was boasting about her little six point plan she was cutting cheques for millions of dollars in more grants. She tried to cover up the audit and she got caught. She said she had a strategy to get out of the mess, but she blew millions of dollars more on the same grants. Instead of taking months to announce her six point plan, why did she not just quit signing the cheques?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, even the auditor general did not suggest that we suspend these important programs. What he did do was agree with our six point plan and agree that part of our six point plan and its implementation should include reviewing the files and ensuring that we have the appropriate paperwork before additional moneys are spent.

Let us be clear. The first thing we did was ask for a stronger management response that included going out and getting the advice of outside experts including the auditor general.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in March 1999, the Bloc Quebecois unveiled a quota system for recovering EI overpayments imposed on all Canada employment centres in Canada. Rates of recovery regularly exceeded 100% of targets.

How does the Minister of Human Resources Development square such efficiency in the battle against the unemployed with the systemic leniency that characterizes the management of over $1 billion in job creation funds?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, a correction is in order, because the member has quoted yet another figure. Two weeks ago, it was $3 billion. Now it has fallen to $1 billion.

But the fact is that the auditors have reviewed $200 million. Of the projects to which this $200 million went, they have found 37 cases with additional problems, representing $33 million. So far, their final review of how $12.5 million was spent shows one overpayment in the amount of $251.50.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is all very well for the Prime Minister to say week after week that the department is keeping tabs on every unemployed worker in the country.

But how does he explain that it kept no tabs at all on a $500,000 grant to Wal-Mart for several months? Is a double standard also becoming systemic?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again let us be clear. We know where the cheques have gone. They have gone to important organizations, small and medium size businesses. They have gone to individuals.

A billion dollars has not disappeared. What we are doing, and I repeat again, is improving our system of administration so that this problem will not happen again.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is always assuring us that the only money that is going out in the jobs grant is going to the poor and going to the needy. Yet what do we hear today? The developer for Wal-Mart received $500,000.

Would the Prime Minister kindly explain to Canadians what is poor and what is needy about Wal-Mart?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it was an initiative taken in a riding in Cornwall where this grant of $500,000 was for a big building construction.

There were 300 jobs created. Three hundred people got jobs because we helped the development, and these people are very happy to work today.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we just heard the minister say that it is small and medium size businesses and then we have the Prime Minister saying that they are huge. The minister is throwing taxpayer moneys at companies whether or not they need it.

Let us take the $80 million firm of RMH Corporation. It received $1.6 billion to set up shop in, guess where, the minister's riding even though, first, it did not qualify for a grant and, second, it admits it did not need the money in the first place.

Why did the minister hand out millions to foreign companies when they admit they did not need the money in the first place?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me clarify again that the transitional jobs fund did apply in my riding. Let me say too that I have had the pleasure not only of understanding and appreciating the role that the program has had in my riding, but also for those who happen to live in the city of Cornwall.

If the hon. member would do as I have done and go to the city of Cornwall and meet with Team Cornwall, the men and women who for years have been trying to improve and diversify the economy in that city, he would know how important this investment is to the men and women who live there.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it was as early as October 1997 that the Corbeil matter sounded the alarm on dubious project management practices at Human Resources Development Canada.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that the use of lists of beneficiaries of the Department of Human Resources Development grants for the funding of the Liberal Party was a strong indication of major administrative shortcomings even then at Human Resources Development Canada?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I will allow the question, because the question itself is in order, although the preamble is something of a mixed bag.

The hon. Prime Minister.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in the case of the incident mentioned by the hon. member, the minister acted immediately. The RCMP was informed immediately, and the person in question was taken to court. The individual pleaded guilty and has served the sentence handed down.

In all of that, we acted very quickly, and the person who abused the system was obliged to appear before the courts of Canada.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister thinks that by shifting the players the problems will disappear.

They promote Mel Cappe to the highest position in the public service and transfer the minister to international trade.

Does the Prime Minister really think that this camouflaging is enough this time to save his government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is an unfounded insinuation. There was a change in Cabinet, and I asked the minister to assume responsibility for which he was specifically trained, that is, international trade.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

You need only read the papers. I am not the one saying this.

Today in the paper there was a very long article on the management skills of the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Cappe, who was praised by those who know about these things, here in the City of Ottawa.

[Maurice Vellacott, Reform, Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the human resources minister and Team Liberal have been throwing good money after bad. She has doled out millions of dollars to profitable firms even though those companies would have set up shop anyway.

What was the minister's motivation for all this generosity? In a word slush? The Ekos audit showed there has been political interference in spreading the Liberal wealth. That wealth is the taxpayer's. Is it not the case that the human resources minister ignored that internal audit because she just could not bear the thought of losing that slush fund?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as we have indicated time and time again, if the hon. member would speak to his own colleagues he would see that the transitional jobs fund was a program that was made available for areas of high unemployment, including those represented by Reform members of parliament, those by the New Democrats, those by the Bloc, those by the Tories and, yes, those by this side.

The program was there to help individuals. It has done a good job of making sure that 30,000 men and women who were not employed before the introduction of this program now have gainful employment.

[Maurice Vellacott, Reform, Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the matter of who those individuals are is questionable. The human resources minister spent months trying to cover up that audit.

Most people would be concerned that maybe their boss would be mad about that, but the minister knew that her boss would not care and in fact would approve because they both have a vested interest in flexibly shovelling large sums of money into their ridings as hastily as possible.

Is the real reason the minister did not worry about the audit that she knew the Prime Minister would be pleased with this mismanagement?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I suggest to the hon. member that he perhaps ask the men and women in British Columbia, represented by Reform members of parliament, what they think about the transitional jobs fund and the opportunities it has given them.

I would suggest that those 30,000 men and women who thankfully are now gainfully employed are grateful that the federal government, at least on this side of the House, understands that there is a role for the Government of Canada when times are difficult in helping them find a job.