Debates of Feb. 22nd, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member knew a bit about business she would know that when banks lose money, for every million dollars they lose, we lose half of that in taxes. When they make a profit we are happy because we collect half of it in taxes.

If I recall, an economy where there is no failure is called the communist system. I do not think the hon. member is in favour of that.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it will be interesting to see what Canadians make out of that bit of logic.

Yesterday the government released thousands of pages listing cheques written by the human resources minister. It shows that the Liberals are very good at handing out other people's money. But the minister failed to provide any evidence about how she managed the billions a year she was shovelling out the door.

When will she give Canadians full evidence showing what they got for all that money?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday we issued exactly what the members of parliament on the standing committee asked for. They wanted to know what the grants and contributions were that went to the ridings.

But the hon. member asked about external evaluations. We do them.

Let me point to the 1998 Ekos Research Associates' evaluation on the transitional jobs fund, which said that an estimated 30,000 jobs were created and 80% of the jobs created were permanent, year-round jobs.

Let us look at the 1998 PricewaterhouseCoopers' evaluation of EI active measures, which said that for 1997-98 120,000 unemployed Canadians—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what I asked the minister for 10 days ago was how much of the billions she spent which was not supported by proper documentation, which was misused or which was paid out before project information was in place.

She has never answered that question. She cannot tell us what the money was really used for.

Is it not true that the Liberals' so-called job creation numbers are just pulled out of thin air?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me say again that this money went to community organizations and individuals in ridings right across the country.

If the hon. member wants to talk about value for money, perhaps she would take the time to visit some of these investments in her own riding. We know that Gina Cameron, the program co-ordinator for the Beddington Heights Community Association, said that this member has not been in their doors. She has no concept of what goes on there. Perhaps she could do that to see how well our money is being invested.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in her desperate attempts to manage the crisis in her department, the Minister of Human Resources Development has flooded the department's Internet site with a list of projects from the transitional jobs fund.

What we fail to understand, because we refuse to believe that the minister is trying to hide the truth—this cannot be what she is trying to do—is why, in the list she is so proud of, the dates on which grants were paid out have suddenly disappeared.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me clarify: payments did not disappear. Payments are found in the organizations and with individuals in this member's riding and in the ridings of many others.

What we showed yesterday was exactly where the $1 billion is to be found. These investments are making differences in the lives of Canadians in the province of Quebec and in every other province and territory of this country.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister said, let me clarify. Either the minister does not understand the questions, or else she does not want to answer them.

I clearly asked her why the dates on which grants were paid out, which were indicated in the previous documents, had suddenly disappeared in the documents presented to us. The reason is because there was a problem with these dates. In some cases, the grants had been paid out two years before they were approved.

I am not asking the minister to tell us the story of her life. I am asking a simple question. Can she answer that question? Why are the dates on which the grants were paid out no longer shown in these documents? Is the question not clear enough?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the information that we have provided gives considerable data on all of the projects that are available.

One of the important pieces of the undertaking is also to provide an opportunity for individual members of parliament who want more information on individual projects to make a request, and that information will be provided to them in writing.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before the scandal on the management of grants at Human Resources Development Canada hit the fan, there was never any mention of “pockets of poverty” as a criterion for the transitional jobs fund.

Can the minister tell us when “pockets of poverty” were introduced as a criterion for transitional jobs fund projects?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as a matter of public policy we included flexibility in the transitional jobs fund. From our point of view it was extraordinarily important for local managers to have the opportunity to respond to local needs.

This has always been part of the program. The hon. member may have wanted us to pick a one size fits all strategy, to have Ottawa make all the decisions, but that was not the approach we took.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what is the minister waiting for to release the document identifying the criteria she used and to tell the House when she introduced them?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, details were provided yesterday to the hon. member and to others about how the transitional jobs fund works.

I quote from a 1996 brochure, which, in answer to the question “Who Can Participate?”, says:

To participate in (the transitional jobs fund) projects, individuals must be facing labour market difficulties as a result of high unemployment in their area.

It was very broad because the program was flexible to allow communities to respond to their local needs.

Canada Health And Social Transfer

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. When the Liberals took office in 1993 health and social transfers to the provinces were $19 billion. Today those transfers are $14.5 billion, and yet the Prime Minister stood in the House yesterday and claimed that the federal government has “restored the level of transfers to the provinces to the level it was in 1993-94”.

How could the Prime Minister stand in the House and state something that is so wildly inaccurate?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the member should check her files. She will understand that when we established the transfer payments in the 1970s it was clearly defined that the transfer of money was to be twofold: some had to be in tax points, some had to be in cash.

The tax points have been tailored to the needs of different provinces because the tax points do not produce exactly the same amount of money in every province. The tax points are constantly adjusted to make sure that the transfer is adequate and that is why we have—

[The Speaker]

The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, how can the Prime Minister be so out of touch? He must understand that the tax points argument does not cut it.

One of his Liberal premiers, in fact the only Liberal premier still standing in the country, stated recently that Canadians are becoming fed up, frustrated and frightened by what is happening to health care.

Tell the patients crammed into emergency rooms that everything is fine. Tell the patients lined up on waiting lists that everything if fine.

When will the government once again become a full partner in health care?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when we formed the government in 1993-94 transfers to the provinces, including cash, tax points and equalization payments, were $37.4 billion. In 1999-2000 they are $38.5 billion

That is the reality. These are the figures used by all of the ministers of finance. We are paying more today than in 1993-94.

Research And Development

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

There are grave concerns across the country about the allocation formula that is in place for the new 21st century research chairs to be included in next week's budget.

In the formula, only 2% or 40 of the 2,000 chairs will be allocated to the Atlantic region. Will the Prime Minister assure the House that these much needed chairs will be distributed in a fair and even manner so as not to further disadvantage small and medium size universities in Canada?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we intend to do.

The Economy

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, today the Prime Minister told truckers that the solution to their problems was to raise their rates for goods. This is the same Prime Minister who told Canadians if they did not like paying high taxes, they should just move.

Clearly the Prime Minister does not understand the impact his simplistic responses has on the cost to consumers. Did the Prime Minister consult with his finance minister before he came up with that one?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is very evident that the hon. member is really confused. I did not understand what he meant at all.

I keep repeating to the Canadian people that here in Canada the government has provided a situation that when the Tories left there was a $42 billion deficit and now we have a balanced budget. When the Tories left, unemployment was at 11.5% and now it is at 6.8%. I could go on and on and I know why the Canadian—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Medicine Hat.

Human Resources Development

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we always hear so many new and different stories from the human resources minister. Over the last several days we have heard many times that she delegated authority for approval of grants in her riding to her own deputy minister. But yesterday she told the House and the leader of the Bloc that really she did not have to do that, that there was no requirement to delegate that.

Which is it? She says on one day that she delegated that authority but now she is telling the leader of the Bloc that she does not have to do that. Which story is it?