Debates of Feb. 29th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, earlier in his questioning the member's leader said it is 21 years since the auditor general talked about grants and contributions and the need for us to improve our administration.

I am glad to say to the hon. member we are doing just that. In the context of grants and contributions in my department we are going to work to build the best system of modern comptrollership that is second to none in North America. This is an important undertaking and we are going to fix our problem and be the better for it.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it wears thin. I am sure hon. ministers have been saying that for 21 years now and we know who was in power then.

There is a cast of thousands involved here. Even the current HRD minister had her hand in this pie when she was at Indian affairs. She wrote a letter approving $200,000 in funding to that sawmill right around the same time.

It was René Fugère who had the magic touch. HRD officials said they had no money for any project, until they realized that Mr. Fugère was involved.

Why is there one set of rules for the Prime Minister's friends and another for every other Canadian?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, this is absolute nonsense and I reject the premise of the hon. member's question.

It is clear here yet again that on this side of the House we know that there is a role for the Government of Canada to play in supporting Canadians who do not have the same opportunities as others. What is clear is that this party—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

What is clear from the questioning from that side of the House is that they do not accept that there is a role for the Government of Canada to play. They talk about waste. I point out again and again and again, it cannot be a waste to support students with Canada student loans. It cannot be a waste to support parents who want to save for their children's education. It cannot be a waste to support Canadians with disabilities so that they can have an opportunity—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Placeteco, a company located in the riding of Saint-Maurice, received a $1.2 million grant. When that company went bankrupt, Human Resources and Development Canada put the money into a trust then gave it to the new owner, something which goes against the rules set by Treasury Board.

How can the minister explain that her own department is violating her government's administrative directives?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I responded to this question in the House earlier, before Christmas. I accepted that there were administrative problems with the decisions that the hon. member is actually making. That is why to me it is so important to undertake the six point plan, to implement it, to improve the administration of grants and contributions in my department because it is the foundation for these important contributions that the Government of Canada makes in the lives of Canadians.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious that the minister does not want any investigation. Yet, it is a great concern to see that the trustee appointed by HRDC was also the lawyer for Claude Gauthier, the person who bought the company.

Is this a pure coincidence? Absolutely not. Between 1993 and 1997, Claude Gauthier also contributed $48,673 to the Liberal Party coffers.

Does the minister not think that she should immediately order an investigation, since this might also allow her not to have to reply to other embarrassing questions in the House?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again this is an old story that we have reviewed in the House before. Fundamental in everything here is that these questions are old news. The issue that has been raised was raised by us. The identification that we could do a better job in administration was raised by us. We are going to work to improve the system of administration and in so doing ensure that the contributions that the Government of Canada makes in the riding of the hon. member and every other member of the House will be secure, will be strong and will be there in the future.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, here are a few interesting facts. In March HRDC said it could not fund the sawmill application because it had zero money left. In July HRDC said, “Look, quit asking. We already told you, all the money has been spent”. In August the Prime Minister's personal representative let HRDC know that it would have to deal with him on the sawmill file. Shortly thereafter HRDC mysteriously came up with over $250,000 for the sawmill.

What is there about the Prime Minister's buddy that forces public servants to scramble to do his bidding?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as a result of our undertakings in reviewing our grants and contributions, we are looking at all our files. The active files will be clarified and any necessary action taken.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Again I want to remind the House that when we are talking about transitional jobs fund grants and Canada jobs fund grants, not only are members of parliament involved, but the decisions include the consensus of or the acceptance by the governments in that jurisdiction, including the province of Quebec in this case and other governments like the kissing cousins of the Reform Party on decisions made in Ontario.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am just asking about one decision. Perhaps the minister could give a straight answer.

HRDC rejected the sawmill application not once but twice. Then Fugère showed up and money magically was shaken loose in the department.

What connections does this man have that he is able to pressure civil servants in her department into changing their decisions?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to accept the allegations made by the hon. member here today. What I will confirm, as I have confirmed over and over again, is that we are reviewing the files associated with the grants and contributions in my department. We will continue to make that information available and public.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, fundamentally what is clear here is that the opposition is caught up in its own rhetoric and cannot get moving forward.

What we know to be true is that Canadians understand this issue. They know that we are fixing the problem. They are probably sitting at home right now wondering why the parties on the other side are not asking about the important priorities that are facing them today.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister continues to refuse to put Placeteco under investigation. Yet, Placeteco refuses to be accountable to her department, because that company no longer feels bound by the grant it received through a trust which, incidentally, was not legal.

Will the minister finally agree that the time has come to launch an investigation at the earliest opportunity?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, clearly we are prepared to answer the questions. That is why last week we tabled the largest volume of information the House has ever seen in its history.

The hon. member asked about an independent review. I say again that an independent officer of the House, the auditor general, will be doing a full review of the transitional jobs fund and the grants and contributions in my department. That is good enough for me.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in a leaflet sent to all the residents of Saint-Maurice, in March 1997, the Prime Minister announced the creation of 174 jobs by Placeteco, when the file had not yet been finalized. By the way, no jobs were created. In fact, some jobs were even lost.

Can the minister tell us why there is still no investigation, since we do not know who got the money and what use was made of it?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again, the money was invested to create opportunities in an area of very high unemployment.

As we have said, and as I have talked about before, in this particular project administrative errors were made. They have been clarified.