Debates of Feb. 9th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development is in denial.

Earlier today she admitted that on November 17 she discovered the reality of the audit that showed the huge waste in her department. However, on December 16 in this place she said “No moneys flowed until the appropriate approvals were in place”.

Why the contradiction? Why did the minister stand in her place and misrepresent the facts? Why did she not tell the truth?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, there is no contradiction. If the hon. member would put it in the context of the questions asked, he would see that the questions from his own party were in reference to specific projects.

I stand by my words in the House.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, weasel words will not save this minister from accountability. Speaking of which, in 1991 the Prime Minister said “When we form the government, every minister in the cabinet will have to take full responsibility for what is going on in his department”. He said “If there is any bungling in the department, the minister will have to take responsibility”.

Why has the Prime Minister broken his word? Why has he not held the human resources minister responsible for the bungling in her department and for misleading the House? Why was the minister—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I ask hon. members to please not use the word misleading. I find the question out of order. If the minister wants to answer it, she may.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, my ministers and I always take responsibility and that is exactly what we are doing at this time. The auditor general is working with senior bureaucrats of the department to make sure that the audit is done professionally. And that is exactly what is happening.

There were 37 cases where, in the mind of the auditors, there were some difficult problems. So far, out of $12 million, they have identified $251.50 in overpayments and we will collect it back.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the Prime Minister's credibility would improve if he were to play a different tape.

Why would we believe that the problem is fixed and that it boils down to $200,000 and change, when there are at least 30,000 cases to be examined? At least 80% of the 459 cases already looked at were problematic.

The Prime Minister should change tapes and tell us what is really going on in this department.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, part of the strength of our program is that we will be reporting to Canadians on a quarterly basis on the information that we receive on implementing the program and on the results which that program is going to have.

I am going to be at committee tomorrow. We will be talking about the results to date. I will be before Canadians on a quarterly basis talking about the results as we continue.

This is an open process and we are going to fix the problem.

Gasoline Prices

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry.

For several weeks now, consumers and truckers have been angered by the price of gasoline at the pumps, of diesel and of heating oil in Canada and in Quebec.

Consumers are right and want to know why the price of gasoline is continuing to climb and why governments are doing nothing about it.

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to say that the member is right to raise an issue that is very important to him—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please.

[John Manley, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

This does not seem to be an important issue for Reform Party members, Mr. Speaker.

First, I would say that, if there is a problem at the retail level, it is up to provincial governments to take action. Second, I have read the media reports from his riding, which say that diesel prices have jumped from 42 cents a litre to 78 cents a litre.

I am sure that the Minister of Natural Resources would agree with me that an explanation is in order and I would like—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please.

Human Resources Development

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the HRD minister has been working on a six point plan. She bungled a billion bucks. She spent five months trying to cover up the audit. She stood in this House and pretended that everything was just hunky-dory. She tried to blame her bureaucrats. Now we find that the TJF is some kind of photo-op.

Clearly the next logical step is for her to resign. Where is she now, at step five and a half?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. I received the report of the internal audit. It said that we had significant problems in the administration of our grants and contributions. I took that seriously. I demanded that we build a strong management plan for implementation. That is now being implemented and we will be reporting to Canadians on a regular basis until the problem is fixed.

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the human resources department is the Bre-X of the government. Instead of the ore being salted, the taxpayer has been assaulted.

A small sample audit of one-fifth of the department's activities found 87% of the files unsupervised and 15% with no record of application. If it were a CEO making this announcement the stock would be through the floor and he would be fired.

Why should Canadians tolerate anything less than the minister's resignation?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, forgive me but I do not think anybody on that side of the House has actually read the internal audit.

What it talks about are administrative challenges in the department's paperwork. We are taking it seriously because we have to have the foundation strong to support very important grants and contributions that are invested in ridings in all parts of this country.

We are taking this seriously. Canadians want the problem fixed and we will do that.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, we have all heard of the Book of Kells. The Liberal House leader is the chief scribe of the book of baloney. The Prime Minister knows it is the book of baloney or else he would share it with us, table it and let us have a look at the contents of the book.

I have my own book of facts and my book says that EI cuts took $20 million out of my riding last year, yet we did not qualify for a single penny of transitional jobs fund money.

I ask the Prime Minister, under what kind of perverse set of rules do rich ridings like Edmonton West and Brant qualify for transitional jobs fund money when my own riding qualifies for not one red cent?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member realized yesterday that he did not know his riding had received more than anyone else. He should check that. He knows it is available. Some programs apply in some ridings, other programs apply in others. But in fact, the member's riding did pretty well. He was shocked to know that he did not know what was going on in his riding.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely horrifying to me that this man who sells himself as the champion of clarity in this country really is the grandmaster of obfuscation. He is the Prime Minister of misinformation and he is hiding behind—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. Go directly to the question.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is simply this: If the transitional jobs fund is not a Liberal slush fund, then why is it that rich Liberal ridings with far lower unemployment rates than my riding qualify for millions of dollars in benefits? My own riding—