Debates of April 4th, 2000

Aboriginal Affairs

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have read some of these audit reports and they are a disgrace.

A crisis exists in Canada. The First Nations National Accountability Coalition presented its report, pleading for an end to the government's refusal to address the critical needs of ordinary people living on reserve. The coalition reports waste, corruption and dictatorship rule.

Will the minister and his government do the right thing and respond immediately to the recommendations of the accountability coalition, or will billions continue to be wasted on boondoggles—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, when we are dealing with government to government relationships, we allow first nations people to make their own decisions.

A number of years ago white governments made the decisions for first nations. That is not the policy of this government. The policy of this government is to let first nations make their own decisions. Those decisions will be made much better at the community level than they will be made by me as the minister or by that party across the way.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is too bad it is not government to people. That is what it ought to be.

The minister continues to hear the outcry of aboriginal people living on reserve. Grassroots aboriginal people have been begging the minister to stop the gross corruption and waste on reserve.

Others in Canada can access an ombudsman. Aboriginal people on reserve cannot. Will the minister respond to this request? Will the minister give aboriginal people on reserve the same rights and privileges that the rest of us have, and give them access to an ombudsman?

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me first say to the member that if he is making accusations of corruption in communities about individuals and elected officials, I would ask him to make those accusation in writing, give them to the solicitor general and we will look at them.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. If the hon. Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development needs more time, he may continue.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Kenora—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the issue of an ombudsman, it is a very interesting concept which the government is prepared to look at. However, we need to do what the hon. member who spoke yesterday suggested, that is, consult people before we make decisions related to a number of issues.

This is the same issue. We do not make decisions on behalf of first nations without holding consultations. We are in the process of consulting with the leadership of first nations. Once we have made the decision as to whether or not they think it is a good thing, we will undertake to do that.

Human Resources Development

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, disturbing facts regarding Placeteco keep accumulating: non compliance with Treasury Board rules, jobs not created, agreement not respected, clauses deliberately ignored, triple role played by Mr. Champagne as the department's trustee, Mr. Gauthier's lawyer and creditor in the bankruptcy, misappropriation of the grant, which was used to repay a loan to the National Bank, creditors cheated.

What more does the minister need to request a police investigation?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the House well knows that this question has been asked a number of times. It has also been answered a number of times, and the answer remains the same.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we never got an answer. Some people, including the minister, avoided the issue.

In the issue of the transfer of a grant from Rosemont to the riding of the Prime Minister, Saint-Maurice, there was a lot less to justify a police investigation. Still, after an administrative inquiry, the accounting firm decided to ask for a police investigation.

Why is there no investigation in the case of Placeteco, where the facts are much more serious, even though they were reprehensible in the other case? Is it because several of the people who would come under investigation are very close friends of the Prime Minister?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's assertion is absolutely false. As I have said on a number of occasions, we have had an administrative review of this file at the highest level in the department, and there is no overpayment that has been established.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development has told us that she has all the invoices justifying the grant to Placeteco.

However, a document from officials informs us that Placeteco no longer considers itself under any obligation to provide an accounting, since it has gone bankrupt, which would indicate to us that not all the information has been provided.

Given this contradiction between the two versions, should the minister not table the vouchers in this House to eliminate any ambiguity?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we have provided a considerable amount of information to the House on all the files related to grants and contributions. If the hon. member wants more detailed information in this regard, there are appropriate avenues that can be followed.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since, in her responses to our questions, the minister voluntarily mixes the files of Techni-Paint and Placeteco and since she also refuses to table the invoices she says she has in hand, could we not conclude that the invoices she has in hand are not those of Placeteco but those of Techni-Paint?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I can confirm that we have reviewed this file in detail at the highest level in the department and there was no establishment of an overpayment.

Again, I want to point out that there are approximately 78 people working on this undertaking who would not be working if we had taken the approach of that side of the House.

Health

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the story of another victim of Alberta's private health care is being widely reported. The patient was told she needed an MRI scan. She called the clinic, only to find out that the waiting list for a publicly funded MRI was nine months, but that she could be seen the very next day if she could pay the $600 fee.

When will the Minister of Health stand and say that this is wrong, that this is shameful, and when will the federal government finally take action to stop it?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I would remind the member that this is the first government since the enactment of the Canada Health Act to stop payment to a province. In fact it was Alberta, which conducted practices inconsistent with the act.

In relation to MRIs, I can tell the member that we are fully aware of concerns. We are investigating them. In fact I took the matter up with the Alberta health minister when I met him last Friday in Markham.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, a leaked report on Alberta health care shows once again that privatization does not work. Instead of innovation and improvement, it leads to queue jumping and it leads to a two tier system.

When the evidence is so overwhelming, and the minister knows it, why will he not speak up? Is not the real reason that the government refuses to stand up to Alberta's privatization plans that the Prime Minister actually supports the increased privatization of our health care system?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, that is nonsense. More than that, it is offensive nonsense. The Prime Minister is a man whose public career stands in testimony to his deep commitment to the principles of the Canada Health Act. It was under his leadership that this government acted to stop payment when Alberta conducted practices which were inconsistent with the act.

As to Bill ll, we have made it clear that at the appropriate time we will play our role to ensure that it is fully and entirely in keeping with the Canada Health Act.

Shipbuilding

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport knows better than most that there are shipyards sitting idle in this country from coast to coast. Yet when the people of Newfoundland needed an additional ferry, his personal appointee at Marine Atlantic bought a ferry built abroad.

The Minister of Industry has long told the House, day after day, that this government does indeed have a national shipbuilding policy that is competitive. If we have a policy that works, how on earth can this government justify buying a ferry that is anything but made in Canada, but made in Europe?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely astounded that the hon. member would come forward with this question, given the fact that there are members on her side from Newfoundland—only one left now—who have come to me over the last year and said “Get more capacity for the ferry from Marine Atlantic”. Now she is saying that because we will deliver on our promises that is somehow bad.

How does she explain that to Tories in Newfoundland?

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I have a follow-up question for the Minister of Transport.

The people of Newfoundland were waiting for that greatly needed additional ferry to service the North Sydney to Port-aux-Basques run, but before they could get it the Minister of Transport appointed a new chair of Marine Atlantic who changed the required specifications, we are told, at the very end of the bidding process.

Now that the ferry is apparently purchased, how can the minister defend the process to purchase a vessel that is in need of a full year of repair work before it will be ready for use?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the important issue here is, will there be additional capacity on the gulf run this summer? There will be additional capacity.

The new chair of Marine Atlantic, who is a captain from St. John's, an eminent seafarer, somebody who knows the marine industry, is an individual who has gone out and got the best deal for the Government of Canada. It does not come cheap. We are spending over $70 million for the service between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. I think that is very responsible.

Aboriginal Affairs

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the government spends billions of dollars on aboriginal specific programming that it claims will better the lives of Canada's aboriginal people, but too much of that money is getting into the hands of those who do not really deserve it.

On the Samson Cree reserve the band deficit is $50 million. The unemployment rate is 85%, and yet, according to the 1997-98 audit, the chief and council have been paid $1.9 million, tax free, in salaries and benefit.

Why is it that grassroots aboriginals get so little and band councils get so much?