House of Commons Hansard #103 of the 36th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was transport.

Topics

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Raymond Lavigne Liberal Verdun—Saint-Henri, QC

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the Second Report of the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament, presented earlier today, be concurred in.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

moved:

That this House recognize the urgent need to address the serious transportation problems facing the Canadian people, and call upon the government to establish a comprehensive national transportation policy that demonstrates leadership on this issue and which provides solutions to the problems shared coast to coast by all Canadians.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on this issue. My interest in transportation goes back a long way, perhaps to the early 1990s and probably into 1996, because of a project I wanted developed in my riding but there was a lack of federal government policy on funding for our national highway system.

The province of Nova Scotia, faced with a dangerous highway, no money and unable to establish an agreement with the federal government, tried to come up with an unique and innovative way to build part of our Trans-Canada Highway. It is now known as the Cobequid Pass and it is a toll highway. It is the only toll highway on the Trans-Canada Highway system right now and it runs entirely through my riding. It certainly focused the issue of transportation for me.

It is not only highways where there is a lack of co-ordinated, consistent policy, where there is a policy of long range planning rather than just react, react. It applies to the rail system; the airline system, as we have just seen recently; the port policies; shipbuilding; and passenger rail service. Again, there is just reaction. There is no long range plan, no consistent approach and no thought put behind these issues.

The ferry system in Canada, especially Marine Atlantic, is now coming under fire and criticism because again, after years of having one system of supplying and managing the Atlantic ferry system through Marine Atlantic, all of a sudden there is a new system and nobody understands what it is. The people in charge of Marine Atlantic are circumventing the process and nobody knows the thought processes, if there is any protection for consumers or if there is any accountability.

In this debate I will be focusing on some of the issues I have just listed. My very learned colleague from Brandon—Souris will be discussing rail and grain issues, which are in his area of expertise. The very distinguished member for St. John's East will be discussing the Marine Atlantic issue. I will also be focusing in on some airline issues.

This morning, for example, when I flew from Montreal to Ottawa, the plane was delayed for a little while. I called my office and said that I would be delayed and that I would be in Ottawa for my presentation this morning but that it would be close. When we were ready to get on the plane there was another delay. This has happened to consumers right across the country. I do not want to hone in on that because I know there are transitional issues, but delays for consumers now are completely unacceptable. There are consistent delays. I hope the new dominant airline can address these issues and bring them back to the former standards.

However, the problem is not Air Canada or the airline mergers. It is that there was very little government involvement in this merger issue. It was almost all private sector driven. The government should have been establishing plans years ago to predict the collapse of Canadian Airlines. It should have been prepared for it but it was not.

As things got worse and worse for Canadian Airlines, another private sector company, Onex, became involved and made a proposal. It looked like that was going to happen, then it did not happen. Then we had all kinds of other proposals and jiggery-pokery with American Airlines and many other partners in this whole issue. Again the private sector determined the aviation policy in this country, not the government. The government was behind the eight ball and it fell far short of the expectations of the Canadian people.

The first issue that I brought up was highways. This is probably the only country in the world that does not have a highway policy. Right now there is not one provincial transportation minister who can tell us what the federal government's policy is on highways. They have been making sounds about maybe some day establishing a policy, but right now there is no policy on highways. It is amazing that a country that is so dependent on highways like Canada, perhaps more than any other country in the world, has no highway policy. Years ago the provinces could make co-operative highway funding agreements with the federal government and now they have all expired except for a few. The remaining policies are now completely inconsistent.

To point out the inconsistency in my area over the next two years, the province of Newfoundland will get $55 million this year and $50 million in funding next year from the federal government, for a total of $105 million. That is on one side of Nova Scotia. On the other side of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick gets $102 million over the next two years. Nova Scotia, in the middle, gets zero. I point out that this is completely inconsistent. I do not say either one of them is right but the point is that it is completely inconsistent.

The road builders, the governments, the shippers, the manufacturers and the industrial parks cannot make plans on how they will establish their facilities, where to build their buildings, where they will hire people and how they will ship their products to market without a co-ordinated, long range, long term policy. That policy has to tie in rail with highway, highway with air and all these have to be tied into municipal passenger systems too. None of that is being done. We are addressing the issues as they come up: bang, there is a highway program, we will build a toll highway; VIA Rail is broke, we will give it more money; Canadian Airlines is in trouble, we will let them merge or whatever. This country, which is so dependent on transportation, perhaps more than any other country in the world because we are so big and our populations are so focused in certain areas, needs a transportation policy.

We want to grow, compete and be in the global market but we cannot be without a transportation policy that ties them all together. That means the government must work with the provinces, the industry, the shippers and the transportation industry to come up with a co-ordinated policy that handles all these issues.

Instead, we have piecemeal deals where the government decides to privatize the airports. This has not happened yet, but I predict that some of the smaller airports in Canada, which are the lifelines and the hope for economic development in small communities like Saint John, New Brunswick for instance, will suddenly find themselves unable to survive and compete.

It is critical that the small airports be brought into an overall policy of the government. We must not just diversify, privatize, commercialize or divest all the airports in Canada. They have to be part of an overall plan.

The big airports will survive. They will do well and prosper. I see great things in the future for the major airports.

Mr. Speaker, I neglected to mention that I will be splitting my time with the very hon. member for Brandon—Souris. He is very anxious to get up and talk about wheat. He knows a lot about wheat and I know very little about wheat, but I do know something about transportation. I do know that there should be a policy that co-ordinates all these issues together.

What has happened is that instead of having a department of transportation, we now have a profit centre. When the government came to power in 1993, the department virtually broke even or lost money. According to a Manitoba study, in the year 2002-03 the department will have a profit of $3.9 billion, counting all the fuel taxes, all the taxes it brings in, the rents from the ports and the rents from the airports.

I do not know how members feel, but the Department of Transport should not be a profit centre. It should not be an avenue to make money on behalf of the government. It should provide the very best transportation and infrastructure possible for this country. It cannot be done on a wing and a prayer. It has to be long range. Highways, rail lines, and airports take decades to plan and decades to build. It cannot be done in the haphazard manner that is happening now.

I will just go back to the aviation merger which changed things so much in the last few months. The divestiture of the ports and the airports are not all bad but they are not part of an overall plan. They have to be part of an overall plan.

There is no plan for highway construction in the country. When I was first given the position of transport critic for the Progressive Conservative Party, I wrote every provincial minister of transport in Canada. I asked them what the number one issue was facing ministers of transport. Every single one said that it was highways and that they needed highway money.

This is a critical issue because there is now such a large transfer of goods and services to the highways from rail. It is more economical, more efficient and more practical to ship by truck. Trucks are getting bigger. The provinces are all asking for permission to have bigger trucks and bigger regulations, which will put more workload on the highways, causing more damage to the highways.

The provincial ministers of transport, absolutely together, say that they need a transportation policy for highways, one that they can plan on for 10 to 20 years and one which they can count on for certain amount of funding based on the gas and oil tax that is collected. It is only fair. Right now only 5%, 6% or less than that goes back into highways. If 15% of the gas and diesel oil tax went back into highways it would resolve most of the issues in the country. It is not a lot to ask.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Jean Dubé Progressive Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his speech on transportation today. I also arrived late from New Brunswick. I was caught at the Montreal airport with my colleague.

What does my hon. colleague think can be done to rectify the problem with transportation in Canada? When I talk about the problems with transportation, I am talking about VIA Rail and the airlines. Should there not be a national policy on transportation that includes every region of every province?

VIA Rail was taken away from Saint John, New Brunswick not too long ago under this government. Today that region is looking for new ideas on transportation.

What does my hon. colleague think can be done if the government has done everything it can to guarantee access by all Canadians?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I do not think the government has done anywhere near enough to address the problem.

The problem is fundamental. We need a co-ordinated transportation system. We cannot make these decisions based on putting more money into small projects, or making a deal on certain provincial highways, or pouring more money into VIA Rail to help it survive but not making a change. There is no fundamental change. The minister should co-ordinate fundamental meetings with agendas to address all our transportation issues to try to co-ordinate all our modes of transport.

Some of the issues are being dealt with in the airline merger now with competition from companies like WestJet and all other charter airlines. My colleague just raised delays and such things a minute ago. I believe they will be addressed eventually, but still we do not have a co-ordinated approach.

When we go to other countries we can see where they have had long range planning. They have the rail lines co-ordinated with the ports, with the subway systems and with the highways systems. They have highways that go directly from the airports non-stop right into the centres of towns or industrial areas. The rail lines and the subways come directly to the airports.

We need a total co-ordinated transportation package in Canada, not piecemeal approaches to resolving the issues.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for bringing this issue to the floor of the House again. Obviously it is a serious issue. There is no question that there is a lack of vision in the transportation policy within the country in all modes of this sector.

I want to comment on one of the points the hon. member made. We have privatization of the airports. Certainly some airports will make dollars but there are those that will not.

In the hon. member's view is it okay to privatize as long as the privatized company or authority will make money but not okay if the others will not? Is it one or the other, or should we be looking at a policy that is there for all of Canada where we all support each other?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, the member's question is interesting. That is exactly the policy we used to have. The member for Churchill has described a policy we used to have wherein the Department of Transport managed and operated all airports in Canada. The stronger ones which had more economic opportunities and were more viable supported the weaker ones.

This is not a matter of poor management on the part of small airports. They just do not have the volume of passengers going through the small airports to establish alternative sources of revenue.

An airport like Calgary, for instance, has established itself almost as a destination point. It is almost worth going to Calgary just to see the airport. Such a dynamic business community has been created within the airport because millions of passengers go through there every year.

A small airport like Saint John, as I mentioned earlier, does not have the traffic to support the alternative sources of revenue like the stores, the food shops, the rental car facilities, et cetera. The small airports have no ability to generate alternative revenue. They have just a fraction of the revenue of big airports from terminal fees and landing fees. They do not have a chance to compete. Even though their expenses may be lower, their opportunities for revenue are much lower than those of the big ones.

The Government of Canada has to go back and revenue this decision. I do not disagree with turning the airports over to the communities, but the government has to review the decision and find a way to make it equitable for the small airports through negotiations on rental deals, a supply of capital or operating expenses to maintain their operations. We cannot let our small airports decline, become unsafe and deteriorate.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will start by thanking my illustrious colleague from Cumberland—Colchester who without doubt is the best and certainly the most informed member of the transportation committee and a critic par excellence. Other members of the other opposition parties could take some lessons from the illustrious member for Cumberland—Colchester.

Let me indicate exactly where I was heading. I would feel much more confident in the national transportation policy and where the country would be heading in the future if my colleague from Cumberland—Colchester were sitting in the minister's seat. He could put into place at least some of his understanding with respect to national transportation and some of his vision with respect to where the country could and should go with those types of policies put into place.

Let me talk about the motion before us today. We had some difficulty as a party trying to figure out which of the ministries was the most mismanaged because there was a smorgasbord of mismanaged departments.

We could talk about health care, which was put on the agenda previously by the NDP. We could talk about mismanagement of HRDC, which has been in the House continuously. We could talk about agriculture, which this party put forward as a topic of debate in a supply motion. That department is totally mismanaged to the point where there is no vision as to where agriculture in the country will go. However we came upon national transportation. When we started looking at a national transportation policy we discovered very quickly that there was none and that the government was heading in an ad hoc direction.

Transportation breaks down into a number of areas. I will speak to one on which I have a bit of understanding. Obviously that is grain transportation. I will not talk at length about it because there are other deficiencies in other areas of transportation and the non-transportation policy of the government.

Let us first open debate with respect to the grain transportation. Back in September of last year Arthur Kroeger tabled a report on grain transportation. Grain transportation is not something that just fell out of the sky. We have been talking about grain transportation in western Canada since the first kernel of wheat was planted in the western prairies. The fact is that the government did away with the crow rate benefit back in 1995. Since that point in time there has been absolutely nothing in place to help serve the farmers of our great country, particularly those in western Canada.

The problem is that one-third of the total value now being achieved through commodities that are grown is going to transportation costs. Unfortunately farmers cannot survive on two-thirds of the commodity price, pay their costs or make any type of a profit so they can continue on in the business. This should have been dealt with a long time ago.

What will happen today, tomorrow, this week or early next week is that the Minister of Transport will be tabling a bill. That bill could have been tabled two months ago when we could have debated that piece of legislation logically, openly and transparently. We will have to push the bill through before we rise in three weeks so that the government can put forward the legislation and it is effective by August 1, the new crop year.

I will have opportunity to tell the country why it is that the government has failed in its responsibility to put forward possibly the best legislation for producers and farmers.

Let us talk about other transportation issues which the hon. member talked about in his dissertation. One of them is highways. The country was built, developed and started on transportation. Does anyone remember the last spike? Does anyone remember bringing our country together from coast to coast with a transportation web, a rail web?

Our country still depends on transportation. The majority of what we produce is exported. It is either exported by sea, by land or by air. We depend on export commodities. We depend on international markets. Our transportation infrastructure is coming to the point now where it is deteriorating beyond that of a third world country.

Let us talk about those three areas. Let us talk about highways on which I have some knowledge. In a previous life I was a chartered member of an organization called the Highway No. 1 West Association. Our major land link, our number one highway, the Trans-Canada Highway, is absolutely deplorable. In areas of western Canada the number one highway is to the point now where truckers and people moving commodities and goods will no longer use it. They now go through the United States of America bypassing Canadian highways, come back up into Canada and deliver their goods. That is deplorable.

The government takes a gasoline excise tax every year in excess of $4.4 billion. The same government puts back less than 4.4% of that into our great highway system throughout Canada. The responsibility falls on the shoulders of the provinces. The provinces have a road network. They have to deal with provincial roads and municipal roads. Now they have to deal with national roads.

As my hon. colleague from Cumberland—Colchester asked, why is it that we cannot work with the provincial governments? We tried to work with the provincial governments when we were in power and were getting to a point of putting together a national highways program.

Unfortunately this government does not wish to deal with a national highways program. When I talked with the minister of transportation and highways in the province of Manitoba, he too came forward and said that the best thing we could do now is to have a long term national highways program.

What does that mean? That means stable funding over a period of years that will be distributed equally, honestly and fairly between all provinces to put in a national highways program.

Right now we have ad hoc programs that come forward from the government whenever there is an election. What a wonderful way to run our infrastructure, particularly our national highways program. Whenever there is an election the government will drib and drab a few dollars.

We have $175 million now for rural roads in the grain transportation strategy the government put forward. We have an infrastructure program of $100 million for this coming year for all of Canada. I believe that works out to $3.5 million for the province of Manitoba for its infrastructure program next budget year. Whoop-de-do, $3.5 million will do three kilometres of highway. It is not a sufficient program.

Let us talk about air service. My hon. colleague certainly understands air service better than the government side does. There is no vision. There is no policy. There is no understanding which is necessary so that we can continue to compete internationally and nationally with our competitors. No strategy has been put forward on transportation.

Another issue is sea transportation. Being from Brandon—Souris, I can honestly say that I do not speak with a lot of experience on open sea transportation, but the hon. member for St. John's East will speak to it a little later because he understands marine transportation.

The issue we are talking about now is the ideology or psychology that has escaped the government. It is an ideology or psychology on what we have to put into place so Canadians can compete in the international market for years to come.

We have heard that the majority of our future will be with knowledge based industries. I do not dispute that, but there has to be a balance. Not only are our knowledge based industries very important for us so that we can sell that knowledge throughout the world, which, by the way, the government does not really have a grasp of. We can talk about the numbers of knowledge based industries personnel leaving the country in the brain drain. At least we recognize there is a real advantage. We also have to recognize that the country was built on manufacturing, processing and commodities that have to be transported.

In western Canada the major transportation requirements are for potash, grain and fertilizers. We need rail transportation that is of a proper standard. We need infrastructure that can be continued into the future. We have nothing put forward by the government which indicates that it is prepared to invest in that infrastructure.

I ask the Minister of Transport to put before the House a well thought out, long term strategy and plan for a national highways program for rural roads throughout the country, as a well as a rail transportation policy not only for passengers but also for commodities. There is nothing I can put my hands on that will show me where those issues will be within the next two, five or ten years. I find it deplorable that the government has no vision for transportation. I would like to move the following amendment:

That the motion be amended by inserting after the word “to” the word “immediately”.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair will ignore the splitting of the infinitive and rule the motion in order.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Don Valley East Ontario

Liberal

David Collenette LiberalMinister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, I will be giving the government's view in a minute, but both the member for Cumberland—Colchester and the member for Brandon—Souris took us to task on a lack of vision with the airline policy. That party supported the government on Bill C-26 and I was very glad of that support.

I would like to ask my colleagues over there what was the alternative they wanted to what we actually did. Did they want the Government of Canada, the taxpayers of Canada, to bail out Canadian Airlines yet again? Did they want a bankruptcy of Canadian Airlines like some of their columnist friends in the national newspapers? Did they want 16,000 people put out on the street, including many in western Canada, Manitoba, the province of the hon. member for Brandon—Souris? I put that to them.

Would they have wanted an incredible disruption at Christmas where there was not capacity from Air Canada, U.S. carriers or our own charters? Thousands and thousands of people would have been stranded and in chaos at the airports. Is that the kind of chaotic policy response the Conservative Party follows?

We can see the chaos in their own party on an ongoing basis. It is okay for them to muck up their own party but do not ask us to muck up the airlines system just to emulate their own lack of cohesion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, if anybody mucked up the airline industry it was the government. I would suspect that anyone with an ounce of management ability would be a little bit proactive and would be able to see what was happening in the airline industry.

Why was the country put into that position? Why is it that customers of those airlines were made to have no choice on that December rush that the minister speaks about? Why was the government minister sitting back in his chair on his tush without putting something proactive in place instead of just simply reacting to a very, very serious circumstance?

Why were there plans not in place prior to Bill C-26? Why did the minister not have some discussions and put into place some of those solutions prior to the urgency with which it came forward? I still blame the government and will always blame the government and the minister for putting Canadians in that situation.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is truly a treat to be here today to listen to the members on the government side of the House and members from the opposition party down at the far end argue over who has been the worst at managing Canada's transportation system. That should tell Canadians up front and absolutely positively that neither of those parties or any like them are going to do what is best for Canadians in regard to the transportation industry.

Both of those parties have fought time and time again to privatize our entire system solely on the basis of privatization being the best answer to transportation in Canada and it has failed. What they should do is look back at what was really best for transportation in Canada which was a policy that was there to meet the needs of Canadians, not just for companies to make a profit off the backs of Canadians.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I assume the member for Churchill is speaking in favour of the motion. What it says right now is what we would like to put forward to the Canadian people. It calls upon the government to establish a comprehensive national transportation policy that demonstrates that leadership she is speaking of on this issue and which will provide solutions to the problems shared coast to coast.

I suspect that the member is speaking in favour of the motion because we agree with her. We believe there has to be a long term, well thought out transportation policy.

By the way, that also includes the port of Churchill with respect to grain transportation. We as a party have always accepted Churchill as part of the grain transportation system. I know she would agree with us in saying that. I thank the NDP for supporting the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

David Collenette Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked where the government was in foreseeing the problems with the airline industry. Where was he last August when we invoked section 47 of the Canada Transportation Act for the first time because we foresaw the difficulties, we foresaw the bankruptcy of Canadian Airlines at Christmas?

We did it. We set in motion a private sector practice that brought forward three alternatives, one of which we now have in place today. That was foresight on the part of the government. That was good planning and it has made for good airline policy.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, that was not good planning. It was a response to one corporation, Onex Corporation, which came forward with a suggestion as to how it could fix the airline situation. The government did not have any understanding as to what was happening until Onex made its proposal.

Why was it that the government was not looking for proposals from other corporations that could make the system work a lot better than what the Onex Corporation put forward?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Don Valley East Ontario

Liberal

David Collenette LiberalMinister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, there are so many erroneous assertions and false assumptions being made that I am pleased to rise in this debate.

I listened with amazement to the criticisms from my colleagues opposite. I believe this motion has it all wrong. When the facts are looked at, and I hope to put those facts rather succinctly in the next few minutes, I think I will have demonstrated that we do have a transportation policy which addresses the needs of Canadians from coast to coast. The government has demonstrated strong leadership in the transportation sector. As a result, perhaps even the Conservatives could rethink their motion and work with all of us tonight to defeat it when it comes to a vote.

The fact is the many reforms the government has put in place in the transportation sector since 1993 have followed a pattern and a philosophy that work today.

First of all, as the hon. member knows, we came into power in 1993 with a $41 billion annual deficit courtesy of the Mulroney Tories. We came here with no money having been spent on airports and infrastructure for nine years. While the Tories wantonly raised taxes to the highest levels in Canadian history, they never invested a nickel except some highway money in the transportation sector. We had to look at every single component.

We looked at airports. We had to get an investment of $8 billion or $9 billion into airports within a short period of time. How were we to do that? Transport Canada was taken out of the day to day management of the airports and local airport authorities were put in place. Those local airport authorities do not constitute privatization. We followed the Canadian model and the crown and the people of Canada still own the airports. They will be ours forever.

We have entered into 60 year management agreements with local airport authorities whose members come from the surrounding communities and understand their communities. I am speaking of people such as those the hon. member for Saint John knows who know all about the specific needs of her community. They are running the airport authority. They are coming forward with plans for new terminals and new infrastructure. This is working at the larger airports in the country. I grant that at smaller airports we have to keep an eye open especially given the airline restructuring. We have to keep an eye open to what has happened and we are monitoring the situation.

We are also looking at the larger airport authorities and reviewing all the leases. We want to see whether there are inequities. The Tories came into power and gave one deal to Vancouver, one deal to Calgary, one deal to Edmonton and another deal to Montreal. There was no consistency like all the other programs they put in place during those nine years. There was no consistency to the local airport authorities. We did some amending and we will be doing more.

When we came into power we brought in an airport policy which standardized the rules across the country. In this lease review we want to bring all of the airports under the ambit of the Canadian airport authority so there is transparency, accountability and a proper management regime which all Canadians can be proud of. A bill will be brought in later this year to effect these particular changes.

That is one example of where we took the lead. We have put the financing of these airports to the users, financed through charges, new rents and new revenues that come from the airports. That is much better than what Transport Canada was doing.

Let us look at the railways. There is the Canadian National Railways, an amalgam of bankrupt railways. To the credit of the Tories they came up with a good idea. It was either the government of Arthur Meighen or R.B. Bennett, one of those two shortlived Tory governments back in the nether part of the last century. They put the railways together under Canadian National Railways and the government invested heavily over the years. That railway was fat. It was inefficient. It was improperly managed. As a result we privatized Canadian National Railways and it has been a success story.

There are aspects of the Canadian National privatization which I am uncomfortable with but we cannot cry over spilled milk. We have to look at the success. The fact is it is a company that has pared down its labour force, opened new markets, forged new alliances in the United States and is truly becoming a North American railway and an institution of which we can be proud.

It wants to go even further with a consolidation with Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation. That is a subject of controversy. The U.S. service transportation board has said it wants time to think about it. It has put a moratorium on such discussions, although CN is appealing it in the U.S. courts. CN knows and hon. members know that I have asked the transport committee to look at that merger to see if it is in the best interests of Canada. The fact is this was a bold move that worked.

Air Canada was privatized by the Tories. That party loves privatization. Some people say that maybe we should have commercialized it and kept the ownership but they privatized it and got rid of the whole thing. Not only did they privatize Air Canada in 1988, the year before, they deregulated the domestic airline system. Part of the problem we have had with Canadian airlines over the last 10 years is that the Tories truly mucked up. They privatized a national carrier which was heavily invested in by the state. At the same time they deregulated and put Air Canada at an incredible advantage to all those other private companies that were then consolidating.

Remember in the 1970s and the 1980s Canadian Pacific, EPA, Transair and PWA were making money and even Québecair made money. What happened was the Tories came along and deregulated it. They would deregulate their uncles, brothers, everybody just out of ideology. And they privatized at the same time. This created an incredible problem for them and for us. Quite frankly, we should have moved to effect the private sector reorganization of the airline industry earlier in our mandate but we had so much on our plate we could not do it. We did it last year and I think it has worked extremely well. I will come back to that a little later.

We also commercialized the air navigation services. We were the first country to do so. Other countries around the world are emulating us. This has caused a great reorganization and investment in new capital equipment for air navigation. Now Canada has the best air navigation system certainly in North America if not the world.

The poor U.S. cannot cope. It has an explosion of flights and passengers. The air navigation services in the United States are creaking under the strain. Hopefully this will not cause a safety problem. In Canada we took a bold move. We have new systems and new equipment coming in. We will continue to have the safest and the best air navigation system in the world.

We commercialized ferry operations. We commercialized the St. Lawrence Seaway. We deregulated the trucking industry. Forget about the reorganization, we liberalized the air market and recently the charter market.

Charters almost have the ability to operate both as charters and scheduled carriers. There are no stopoff provisions and prepayments have been waived. The charter companies have responded. How have they responded? They responded by putting in new orders for equipment: Canada 3000, four A319s; Royal Air, another 757; Air Transat, a new A330; and so on. The charters are responding and filling the void that needs to be filled.

The CTA, the Canada Transportation Act, was brought in in 1996. It has had some success, but there have been some criticisms. Those criticisms can be examined in the debate that will follow in the next year.

However, there is no denying that under the Canada Transportation Act, of all of the railway lines that are up for abandonment, 80% are still being operated by short line railways, operating under provincial charters, responding to local needs, such as the Essex Terminal Railway in Windsor, which is operating on small trackage, Omnitrax to Churchill, and RailTex. These railways are there, they are making money, they are providing a service and they have allowed CN and CP to concentrate on their core activities.

The Canada Transportation Act is up for review as of July 1. Very shortly I will be appointing prominent individuals to conduct that review. That review will be very important. If the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester does not think we have a transportation policy, this review will give him and his party the chance to say “Let's have a national transportation policy that we, the Tories, can live with”, because the whole act will be up for review. It will take one year. We can look at every single aspect of the act.

If members from the west are not happy about the abandonment of track, we can look at that. With regard to urban Canada, I am meeting with my friend from Vancouver Quadra this afternoon about the Arbutus Corridor, a freight line that goes to downtown Vancouver which should be saved for a link to the airport. CP wants to sell it for $100 million. Is it right that the railways have the latitude, unfettered, to get rid of these rail lines in urban corridors? That is a matter that we should be looking at in the CTA review.

Parallel to that the committee will be looking at the BN-CN merger to see whether it is in the best interest of public transportation policy.

Not only is there a transportation policy, not only has it worked, we now have a vehicle, the CTA review starting in July, where for the next year we will be able to embellish that policy and change it however hon. members would wish to improve the entire transportation system in the country.

All of the things we have done in the last seven years have contributed to the prosperity of Canada and have resulted in reduced transportation costs. In fact, if we had not brought in the reforms of the last seven years transportation costs would be $8 billion higher today.

Because of the intense competition brought about by deregulation and all of the changes, most of the gains, which amount to $8.1 billion, have been transferred to consumers and shippers in the form of lower prices. Because transportation is part of everything that we buy, import or export, these gains have contributed to making the Canadian economy more competitive and to improving the standard of living for all Canadians.

I am not supposed to talk about what goes on in cabinet, but we had a good briefing from my colleague, the Minister of Industry, about the various productivity in industrial sectors in the country. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, what the most productive sector was in the last seven years? It was transport. Do you know why it was transport? Because of the policies of this government. I am saying we got it right. We can refine some of our policies, we can deal with airport leases, and we can even look at the rents. We will do that because we are not dogmatic. We are flexible. We can build on all of these successes and improve the transportation policy.

I want to say a few words about my time in this portfolio. Let us look at the accomplishments: Bill C-9, the Canada Marine Act. Two of my predecessors worked on that bill. We were not able to get it through the Senate. We got that bill through the House with the co-operation of colleagues on either side and in the other place. That bill allowed the 18 biggest ports to be commercialized, which has been a success that is working well. Great ports like Vancouver, Montreal and Halifax are doing even better because of those reforms that we brought in, as well as all of the smaller ports across the country.

Secondly, there was the airline rationalization. I gave my views the other week at third reading of Bill C-26, but somebody from outer space could only come to the conclusion that the government did not do the right thing. We have taken the largest airline in the country, the second largest airline in the country, 41,000 employees, 350 aircraft, serving hundreds of destinations, and have merged them in an almost seamless fashion across the country, without a nickel from the taxpayer by way of subsidy or bailout, with no job losses, with no communities disturbed. In fact, Charlo and Miramichi have had their air services restored. No one has lost their air service.

Air Canada can compete with the biggest and the best in the world. That will be good for overseas pricing because it will take on British Airways, Alitalia and Cathay Pacific. Before the merger we had 55% of the transborder routes between Air Canada and Canadian Airlines, and now it will grow even higher. We have beaten the Americans at their own game. That has been done by Canadian air carriers and we will improve their ability to compete even further with the Americans.

I will grant that we have a problem in domestic competition. As I have said in the House before, we will not open up the skies and let the Yanks come in with their huge fleets. United Airlines has 1,100 planes. It wants to merge with U.S. Air, which has 500 planes. Mr. Speaker, do you know what they could do? I know they are part of the Air Canada lines, but let us take American Airlines and let us take Delta Airlines. They would come in here like vacuum cleaners. They would not be interested in serving Churchill. My NDP friend from Churchill, our colleague from Yukon and my friend from Saskatchewan would not be served. Those airlines would not want those smaller communities. They would want to gobble up all the big bucks between Toronto and Vancouver or Montreal and Calgary.

It is like the old argument to privatize the post office. Remember all those people, those flat earth people, who said we should privatize the post office. We know what would happen if we privatized the post office. All of the FedExes, the Purolators and the UPSs would have their trucks whipping around between Toronto and Montreal on Highway 401, and they would be charging a premium. Who would give mail service to Iqaluit, to Amherst, Nova Scotia, to Medicine Hat, to Churchill or to any of those small communities? The good old muggins, the Government of Canada, the taxpayers would have to do that. We would have to subsidize it. We will not let the U.S. carriers in because I believe and this government believes that Canadian entrepreneurs can do the job.

I read all of the editorials and columns by all of the so-called experts. I do not want to debate with them on every point, but what a pathetic lot. They say “We cannot compete. We let the Americans in. They are the only ones who can do it”. If that is where the Canadian journalistic elite is going today, this country is in sad shape. They have no faith in Canada and no faith in Canadian entrepreneurs. All they have to do is look at the charter airlines. Look at the WestJets. Look at the smaller carriers. Look at First Air, which is owned by aboriginal Canadians. These carriers make money. These are Canadian entrepreneurs and we will give them time to fill the slack and give us the competition. It is happening.

Ken Rowe from Halifax has six 737 aircraft, plus he has his feeders. He is starting on August 1 and he will take on Air Canada in Halifax. He will take them on in Toronto, in Montreal, in Ottawa and in Winnipeg. I say more power to him. He is from Nova Scotia, a great province with entrepreneurs. Why do we need Americans when we have people from Nova Scotia, western Canada and elsewhere to do these jobs?

Before I finish I want to say a little about VIA Rail. That is an accomplishment. All the cuts the Tories made cut the lifeblood out of the passenger rail system. For the first time a government said “No more. We are committed to passenger rail. We will give you the subsidy for 10 years. More than that, we will give you $401 million for capital expenditures”. It has not been done before in Canada. This is a seminal mark in our history. The Government of Canada is committed to passenger rail.

The hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester says we are just throwing good money after bad. He should tell that to his constituents because VIA Rail goes through his constituency. We just restored the tourist train up to Cape Breton and we want to do more. Is he going to tell the people of Nova Scotia that $400 million should not be spent because it is throwing good money after bad? I dare him to say that to his constituents.

My last point, before I get totally wound up, is on grain transportation. This was a tough file. As a guy coming from Toronto, I had doubts sometimes about whether we could get a deal. We consulted stakeholders. We had two of the finest minds in the country, Mr. Estey and Mr. Kroeger, who came forward with reports. We spoke with everyone: the railways, the grain companies and the producers. Not all producers are happy about it. Some are opposed.

We studied this to death. We had tough arguments in our own caucus. I talked to opposition members. We got a compromise which starts us on the path to true commercialization in grain transportation.

I apologize for the fact that it comes so late. I will come back at 12 o'clock, after I go back to cabinet and get authorization for the bill, and introduce it. I cannot believe that anyone in the House would want to delay the grain bill and stop $178 million from going into the pockets of Canadian producers.

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11:10 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Jean Dubé Progressive Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Mr. Speaker, the minister says he does not speak out of cabinet and he has been briefed. I hope he was briefed by the HRDC minister throughout all of this mismanagement.

The minister was singing the government's praises earlier.

This is the same government that said it would scrap the GST in its red book. Remember that? This is the same government.

The minister stands today, looks Canadians in the eye and talks about Charlo Airport in New Brunswick. I am glad he knows about Charlo Airport. It was because of this government that this part of the country was cut off from the rest of the country with no air transportation.

Today I want to thank the Charlo Airport commission for the excellent work it did in restoring air service to Charlo.

What about rail service in New Brunswick? VIA Rail was there during the Tory government, but when the Liberal government came in it was taken out of Saint John and Edmunston, New Brunswick. These people as well were cut off from the rest of Canada.

I met with some students from McGill University and the University of New Brunswick. They said that the problem with Canada is that people do not know the country. They do not know what goes on in Quebec City. They do not know what goes on in western Canada. They do not know what goes on in Atlantic Canada. We have one part fighting with another part. They said it is too expensive to travel within Canada.

What has the government done? What does the government intend to do to restore VIA Rail service in New Brunswick, to Edmunston and to Saint John?

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11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Collenette Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my friend listened closely to my speech. The $400 million is to provide new equipment, track improvements and signalling, not just in the Windsor-Quebec corridor, but right across the country.

In the business plan, which I happen to have on my desk, which I am reviewing, I am asking VIA management to take a look at every single line which was cut in the last 10 to 15 years to see if there is a business case to bring that service back over a certain period of time.

I assume the hon. member from Madawaska—Restigouche agrees with me, but he should talk to his buddy in front of him, his transportation critic, who was the only person in the country who slammed the government for providing $400 million to revitalize passenger rail. Where is the consistency? Where is the logic in the Conservative Party?

With respect to Charlo and Miramichi, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the merger. InterCanadian was a private company, not part of Canadian Airlines. It was badly managed. It was overextended. It tried to blame airline restructuring for its own follies.

I felt badly for those people in those two communities and those in the other two communities in Quebec and Newfoundland. Happily the service has been restored, which shows how there can be flexibility. The experience has always been, and that is why we improved the exit provisions in Bill C-26, that someone will come into a market and offer the service if the market is there. The market is there in northern New Brunswick and it should be used.

On the last point, the hon. member from Saint John was heckling me about Saint John, Moncton and Fredericton. I want to pose a question to her and maybe she will answer it. She has to understand that there are three airports, Moncton, Saint John and Fredericton, all within a two to three hours drive. I guess the market will have to make some choices as to which airport will actually be the main airport.

I come from greater Toronto. We have one airport that serves eight million people. Someone coming from Cobourg or Kingston to Pearson has a three hour drive on Highway 401 and then has to park at alarmingly expensive rates. The minister of state for Parks Canada is up in Muskoka. He has to drive another two and a half hours. We are used to that kind of sacrifice, and I hope the people in New Brunswick could make some accommodations during this very difficult transition.

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11:15 a.m.

Reform

Howard Hilstrom Reform Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport certainly is waxing eloquent in a high, wide and handsome fashion with the facts as far as I can see.

I have two short questions. The minister spoke about no one in the House delaying the bill with regard to the rail transportation of grain in western Canada in particular. When did the minister receive the recommendations of the Kroeger-Estey commission that he commissioned? Why did it take until the first of June to bring forward the changes to the rail transportation system?

When the minister received that report, with the tremendous amount of research and consultation that went into it, did he not implement the very recommendations of the Kroeger-Estey report including the backup from the five big grain companies? In order to help the minister a little, I will just point out that I know the reason that did not happen. The reason is that the Canadian Wheat Board minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs told him that he could not implement that report.

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11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Collenette Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, we had the views of the experts, Mr. Estey and Mr. Kroeger. They were asked for technical opinions, their best work on what would make an efficient system.

We do not live in a perfectly technical world. We live in a world with real people who have real aspirations and we in this Chamber are all engaged in politics. Mr. Kroeger and Mr. Estey did not address the political issues. Someone had to, and it is us in the Chamber.

Granted, there was intense debate on this side of the House and trade-offs were made, but ultimately the package that came forward starts us on our way to a true competitive system and puts $178 million in the hands of prairie farmers. I think it will herald even more reforms once the logic of those reforms is accepted.

On a procedural matter, I said I would come back in a little while once we get approval in cabinet for the bill to try to get consent for first reading of the grain bill. I should also say that I have been talking with my colleague responsible for the wheat board because we together and our bureaucrats have been working on the MOU with the wheat board. I would like to have that MOU in the hands of the opposition before debate starts on Monday. We will try to get that organized.

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11:15 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister mentioned airports and one large airport. I want him to know that I have the largest city in the province of New Brunswick. It is Saint John, New Brunswick, not Moncton. That is the largest city.

When our party was in government we had 4,000 men working at the shipyard. What has happened? No one is working at the shipyard. We had 325 people working at the sugar refinery. What has happened? The sugar refinery, which dates back to 1903, closes down today. We had VIA Rail and a brand new train station built. What has happened? Mr. Doug Young closed down the train station and took away VIA Rail.

It is time the government sat down to look at what this means to the economy. The minister should come to Saint John. For the first time in the history of Saint John, New Brunswick, he will find paper bags on windows in the business sector of our city. This has never happened before. We need this turned around. If we are to have one airport, it better be in Saint John, New Brunswick, the industrial and business centre for the province of New Brunswick.

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11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David Collenette Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think my colleague from Saint John got me wrong. The government is not advocating the consolidation of the three airports in New Brunswick or the building of a superairport at Sussex.

What I am saying is that I would hope the people of New Brunswick would understand that, given the kind of commercial environment we live in, it will be the marketplace that will determine which of those three airports in effect gets the best options from the travelling public. It is not for us to say it is Moncton, Fredericton or Saint John. We have to give the local authorities there the ability to market their services and to go out and compete.

On the last point, the hon. member talked about the dearth in shipbuilding jobs in Saint John. I sympathize with her. I am a great advocate of the Canadian shipbuilding industry. The government is working on a new policy. The hon. member talked about all the jobs in shipbuilding from the frigate program. Guess who started the frigate program? It was the government of Pierre Trudeau in 1978. I was a proud member of that government. It carried Saint John through for 15 or almost 20 years. They built great ships. Let us try to build some more.

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11:20 a.m.

Reform

Roy H. Bailey Reform Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time that transportation in the history of this great place has been a hot topic. It probably will not be the last time. It is probably the reason that the transport committee room is the largest and at one time was considered the most important committee as the country developed.

It is interesting to note the sparring between the Progressive Conservatives and the government. This is May 2000. We have to look at what we have now and we have to look to the future. Trying to score political points on the past does not solve any transportation problems across Canada.

I congratulate the member for Cumberland—Colchester who serves on the transport committee. He is indeed a good member. His colleague inferred that he was the best member of the transport committee. I have been on the committee for three years. All parties are represented. No one on that committee behaves in a manner superior to somebody else. I find that a great insult to a committee that has worked on issues very co-operatively over the last three years. We may disagree on philosophy at points, but we have turned out a lot of work for the House. I take exception. I know the hon. member from the PC Party is on that committee.

It goes without saying that we cannot talk about Canada without talking about transportation. I do not suppose we ever will. In the first class on Canada at university one of the statements heard is that the very existence of Canada is a sin against geography, and it still is.

There are members sitting to my right from Churchill and from Yukon. What is their big problem? Transportation. What is the big problem in the prairie provinces, particularly in my province? Oh, boy, it is transportation. Members from the maritimes today raised their unique problem. Transportation.

It has always been a Canadian problem. It will always be a Canadian problem because the existence of Canada came about in a contradiction to geography. We are here and we are proud of it, but in the year 2000 we are facing some very difficult times in transportation.

From time to time Canadians have overcome many of their transportation problems. Let us look at the history of our country and the promises made. British Columbia came into Confederation because of a promise. What was that promise? It was the promise of a railway.

It is not possible to provide transportation to the scattered areas of Canada without transportation being expensive. Let us make no mistake about that. I happen to come from a province that has 240,000 kilometres of roads and one million people. With the railways disappearing, we have a serious problem. Is this the first time we have ever had a serious transportation problem? No. Is the problem today as serious as it has ever been? The answer to that question is yes.

This motion is asking the Government of Canada to pull together with its counterparts in the provincial and municipal governments to develop a strategy so that we do look ahead into planning for the future. Some bad things have happened in the last two decades. Let us take a look at them.

The west has lost thousands of miles of railways. For the most part of the prairies we have basically lost VIA Rail service. It is gone from most areas. I can catch an Amtrak train at a point south in the United States with fewer miles to travel than if I drive to Saskatoon. We have those problems, but those problems will not be fixed without a politically unbiased move to bring the country together to take a look at what has happened. I want to mention just one or two points.

It is obvious that today's Minister of Transport of Canada does not carry the same clout in federal financing as his predecessors once did. I could not believe it when I looked at past budgets. At one time the transport file was the big spender. That is not so today.

In many provinces including my own at one time 100% of everything taken in by Saskatchewan in fuel tax was spent on roads. Some provinces spent 110% or more than what was taken in. I believe the province of Manitoba was in that general area. To have that happen in Saskatchewan at the present time may not be possible.

Today our economy depends on a very good seamless transportation system. Earlier this morning I had the privilege of having breakfast with the Canadian Trucking Association. It desperately needs this policy to be in place. It desperately needs a sound transportation policy from the government in co-operation with the provinces and municipalities. We must interconnect all modes of transportation and we cannot do it on an ad hoc basis.

What must happen is that the federal government has to quit using fuel taxes as a cash cow. Therein lies the problem. Last year the federal government collected $4.5 billion in fuel taxes, I repeat $4.5 billion, and it has put back only $150 million. That is a national disgrace.

No one on this side of the House and I am sure no one on the government side would even come up with the idea that 100% has to be put back. The Canadian Automobile Association has stood by a figure of 20%. If 20% of the fuel tax collected by the government were to go back to the provinces, we would be in good shape.

A study by the University of Manitoba Transport Institute shows that the government collects a disproportionate share of fuel tax from the prairie provinces. I know we all guard our own little areas, the maritimes and so on. I want to point out very clearly that in the fiscal year 1998-99, the federal government collected $4.4 billion. The same year, according to the study by the University of Manitoba, the federal expenditures on road infrastructure were $198 million, less than a nickel out of every dollar collected.

Whether we are in the maritimes, on the coast, in the north or in the prairie provinces we cannot maintain our transportation road network on a mere five cents on the dollar being returned. It cannot be done. I cannot even travel my constituency now and use all of the highways. I have to go on gravel country roads because the highways are unsafe to travel. We could blame it on heavy trucking, we could blame it on many things but it is simply a fact. If Saskatchewan were to get 60% of the money that has been allocated through the grain transportation bill and if I could somehow persuade that it would all go to my constituency, it would not bring Highway 13 up to standard, it would not bring all of Highway 18 up to standard, it would not bring Highway 47 up to standard and it would not bring Highway 8 up to standard.

We are at a point in our history where the money has to be refunded. If we do not move up the scale to 25%, there are parts of Canada, including Saskatchewan, which will have to take away what pavement is left and return the roads to gravel. That is a conclusion which most people could draw.

There is no national highway program. There was when the Trans-Canada Highway was built. Some 25,400 kilometres was identified in 1992, eight years ago, by a joint federal-provincial highway policy study. There has been no administrative framework for maintaining or upgrading that highway and no national program since that time, for eight years, in a country that is totally dependent on its highway network.

Again, in the United States when I cross the border into North Dakota and get gas I see on the bowser the federal input, the state input and how much taxes are being paid.

In the United States transportation equity act, $26,174,381,000 in federal funding is going to be invested over the next five years. That is a tremendous amount of money. Almost 50% and in some cases 80% of what they collect goes back and we send 5% back. It just will not work. There are areas of Canada which just will not be able to do it. I believe if the House takes a look at our policy and the motion by the member, the need is very important.

Politics in fuel tax is a recent thing in our history. If we go back 25 years, a tax on fuel was used for that purpose. Now, in particular in this House and in some provinces the motor vehicle fuel tax is not being directed to roads. I suppose one could say politics is the art of the impossible and the federal government is severely addicted to tax revenue. That addiction is killing transportation in Canada. I wonder if the government would consider a proposal like that of the Canadian Automobile Association, that 20% of the funds be returned to the provinces.

My parents asked me to drive them to Ontario. Anyone who leaves my province and drives to Ontario, what route do they do? Those people who live in the southern part get on Highway 39 and get to U.S. 2 and come all the way through the United States. Why? Because of the roads and because of the cost factor. The trucks are doing it as well. It is because we have not had the ability or the common sense to put back into our transportation system the money that has been taken out. Is the money there? Absolutely.

When my colleagues and I on the transport committee discussed the airline bill, Bill C-26, I was amazed at the entrepreneurship out there to bring good air travel to Canada. I am amazed at the number of private entrepreneurs like WestJet and there are many more. As a result we are going to be well served in the future. I am not even questioning it.

However we should not expect a return in Canada to the VIA Rail service we once had. There is not enough money in the country to support that service as we have in the past. There is no passenger rail link anywhere in the world that does not have to be subsidized. When we in Canada have to subsidize up to 40% of what is called the most lucrative runs in Canada, we can readily understand why Canadians cannot expect to have the passenger rail service they once had. Would I like to see it? Yes I would like to see it. Does it sound good? Yes it sounds good. But let us deal with reality.

Let us look at these problems in the light of what we are facing in the year 2000. Never mind the bickering of the past and the political points to be scored. Let us go forward here. My colleague's motion is a good one. It does not deal with ideology. It does not deal with privatization against crown ownership, knowledge, regulatory features and so on. It is a good motion. The motion simply says that we should on a non-political non-partisan basis get together and establish a framework whereby we can look at the various transportation issues facing Canada.

I support that motion simply because Canadians need it. Canadians look forward to having some concrete body in place. The provinces are looking for it. The municipalities are looking for it. The lead has to come from the government. I will brag a little and say we certainly have a good transport committee to deal with it and to feed that information out to our counterparts in the municipalities.

In conclusion, it is 2000. Let us go on. We cannot forget the past, but let us not let the past dictate what we are going to have in the future. We must look ahead and we must do it co-operatively. When it comes to transportation, Canadians really do not care too much about the political debate in the House. They want to see something concrete.