Debates of June 5th, 2000

Human Rights

[Denis Paradis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, Canada is advancing four major points in Windsor. The first point is human security, as we discussed in the throne speech. The second point is human rights, which it is important. Democracy is an important issue also. The third point is the inclusion of civil society on the agenda. The fourth point is the agenda for the next summit of the Americas to be held in Quebec City next April.

We are speaking about human security. We are speaking about human rights.

Human Resources Development

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the recent disclosure by a staff member in the office of the Minister of Human Resources Development indicates that the problems in her department were known as early as October 20, and many would suggest earlier. On February 9 I asked the minister to inform Canadians on exactly what date she was first made aware of the problems.

Given today's disclosure, does she stand by her earlier answer that she was not aware of those problems until November 17?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, given the spinning, the nuancing and the attempts that have been made to backdate this, it is clearly impossible that the minister's office would not have kept such politically explosive information from her.

It is equally impossible to believe that someone did not tell the minister at least verbally that there was a serious problem within that department. Does the minister feel that Canadians can be misled and fooled into believing that she did not know this problem—

[The Speaker]

Order, please. Let us stay away from words such as misled. I want the member to go directly to his question.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

It is down to a matter of trust. Does the minister believe that Canadians should trust her answer, given what has transpired in her department on her watch?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, in the final stages of completing the audit there was time for briefing that had to be organized. E-mails were exchanged but that is the process as it would be normally undertaken.

Again I say to the hon. member that it is clear. It is in the public record that my briefing was on November 17. There is nothing in the information that is being brought forward today that suggests anything otherwise.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is being ever so careful with the words she chooses when she talks about when she was first aware of the problems in her department. She keeps saying that prior to November 17 there was only preliminary work done on the audit.

In the briefing schedule for the minister that we received through access to information it says that on the afternoon of August 9 she received briefings on the transitional jobs fund, the Canada jobs fund, and grants and contributions because those were the hot issues of the day and the minister wanted to be briefed.

Did she or did she not receive a briefing on August 9 about those hot issues, the transitional jobs fund—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we have talked about this on a number of occasions right in the House. I have said that indeed I talked and was concerned about specific projects from the transitional jobs fund and from the Canada jobs fund. There were many other issues of great concern to me as a new minister in this portfolio, and we talked about those as well.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, here are the facts. We know the HRD officials had a crisis management meeting in late July. On August 9 the minister received a briefing on the hot issues facing her department. We assume it included that information. On September 23 the media lines about audit were on the way to her office. On October 20 a key aide to the minister was aware of the audit. By November 5 even the Clerk of the Privy Council knew about the audit.

The minister knew about the boondoggle audit before November 17 and yet she told Canadians something different, or she was the last one in the entire government to know about it. Which is it?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing new here. The facts remain as they are. Indeed an audit was being undertaken in the department. Work was being done as a result of preliminary results of that audit. That is fully appropriate. I was briefed on the whole audit and the management response once that work was completed. That was on November 17.

What is critically important here is that we, once the management response was strengthened, provided information to Canadians that we had a problem, that we were prepared to deal with it, that we were going to fix it, and we are doing just that.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listen to the minister. She tells us that all of the department's senior officials discussed the problem. Her staff discussed it. E-mails were sent. Officials from the various regions of Canada met to discuss it, but she was not aware.

I imagine that, when she joined the department, they said “Not a word, here comes the minister. She must not know”.

Does she think we really believe her? Is she credible? Who besides her believes her?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, when it comes to trust the Canadian people can trust me to respect them. When it comes to trust, the Canadian people can trust me to tell them the good news but also to tell them when we have problems, to identify how we are going to fix them, and to go ahead and fix them.

When it comes to trust, the Canadian public can trust me to stand up against this kind of questioning which takes us back in time over issues that are a matter of public record and to confirm to the Canadian public that I am prepared to deal with tough issues to find the solutions with respect to their interests for the country.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, incredible statements are being made here.

I see the minister smiling often. I wonder what she finds funny in the fact that millions of dollars are beyond administrative control and that 13 investigations are being carried out by the RCMP in her department. What is funny about that? What is funny about trying to get people to believe such totally crazy things?

Is this minister finally going to understand that she is destroying the image, not only of this government, but of politics in general with this attitude, which shows no respect for the House, parliament and the public.

[The Speaker]

I think we are coming very close to using unparliamentary language. It is time to calm down a little. The Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is out of respect for the Canadian people that I made the internal audit public. It is out of respect for the Canadian people that we provided to the House 10,000 pages documenting where the grants and contributions, their tax dollars, were being invested right across the country.

It is out of respect for the Canadian people that my department reviewed 17,000 active files and identified quite clearly that this was not an issue of money but an issue of important paperwork being missing. For me, having that paperwork is fundamental and that is why we have taken—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Medicine Hat.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has talked all around this issue. I want a very specific answer. We have access to information documents that show she had a briefing on August 9 during which CJF, TJF, and grants and contributions were discussed.

My question is very specific. Was the issue of the internal audit brought up at that briefing? Yes or no.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of the internal audit was not brought up at that meeting. Let us look at what was: employment insurance, post-secondary education, seniors pensions, child poverty and, yes, the transitional jobs fund, all things that we know are of no interest to that party.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the briefing was supposed to give the minister some sense of what the hot issues were in her department. Now we have a situation where the minister has just told the House that according—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. We will hear the question.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

The minister had a briefing on the 9th. She was told that she was going to get all the information on the hot issues. Now she is saying that her own department would not give her the information about something as hot as that internal audit.

If the minister is that incompetent that she does not know what is going on in her department, will she resign?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, what is hot here is that hon. member's imagination. He and other journalists can look for something sinister in all this, but I am sorry, it is all about mundane scheduling.

I say again, based on preliminary results from the internal audit which was not completed until late in the fall, the department was preparing a management response. Then they brought it to my attention. There is no new information being brought forward to the House. The facts remain as they always have been.