Debates of Oct. 4th, 2001

Transportation Appeal Tribunal of Canada Act

[Val Meredith, Canadian Alliance, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to Bill C-34 on behalf of the coalition. It is interesting that the government is introducing the legislation. There are many important issues concerning transportation in the country. This is not one of them. Airline security, the state of Canada's airlines, and commercial transportation at the borders are all far more important to the average Canadian than the housekeeping bill the government has put before us today.

As is frequently heard from all parties in the House, September 11 has changed everything. It has changed the way the world operates. If there is any doubt, particularly from a transportation point of view, I need only point to the events of yesterday when a passenger slit the throat of a Greyhound bus driver in Tennessee. This caused an accident in which six people were killed. It was a tragic event.

Greyhound's response was to immediately shut down its whole U.S. transportation network. That is the kind of response we are seeing when something like this happens. Prior to September 11 it would have been treated as an isolated incident and dealt with by local authorities.

In the wake of September 11 with these kinds of situations happening it is interesting that the Liberal government feels we need to debate a housekeeping bill to create the transportation appeal tribunal of Canada. The purpose of Bill C-34 is to create the transportation appeal tribunal of Canada, an independent quasi-judicial body which would act as a mechanism for administrative and enforcement actions taken under various transportation acts governing the marine, rail and aviation sectors.

The new appeal tribunal would replace the Civil Aviation Tribunal which was established in 1986. The Civil Aviation Tribunal is a functioning body. It has been in existence since 1986. The changes being introduced by the legislation would expand it into a transportation tribunal as opposed to mere aviation tribunal. It would carry out the same basic functions as the Civil Aviation Tribunal but its responsibilities would be expanded to the marine and rail transportation networks.

Reviews of decisions affecting the marine and rail sectors are currently conducted by senior departmental officials and the minister. I think Canadians feel it is wise to move these kinds of reviews to an independent body as is done in the aviation industry. They feel it is better to get these kinds of appeals out of bureaucratic hands. There is no question that would be good.

The real issue with this housekeeping bill is that the Liberal government has had plenty of time during its nine years in office to have made the necessary changes. The aviation tribunal has been around since 1986. Why has the government chosen this time to bring the legislation on to the floor of the House?

It is quite clear that this is not a main concern to many Canadians. We did a computer search of Canada's major newspapers for the last three months. We turned up exactly zero articles that mentioned the Civil Aviation Tribunal or the proposed transportation appeal tribunal. It is not on the agenda of the ordinary Canadian or for that matter any political party. It has not been on anyone's agenda.

As a former member of the transportation committee I can say that the committee never dealt with any issues regarding the tribunal although the processes were mentioned in passing and whatnot. If people and government committees have not been talking about the need for it, why does the government see it as the most important transportation issue for the House to be addressing?

This housekeeping bill concerns the makeup and legislative authority of this new tribunal. The Civil Aviation Tribunal currently consists of a chair, a vice-chair and six other full time members in Ottawa. There are 26 part time members around the country who are supposed to be chosen on their knowledge and experience in aeronautics.

Bill C-34 states that the new tribunal, which would bring in marine and rail component industries, would consist of members who collectively have expertise in transportation sectors in respect of which the federal government has jurisdiction. One has to assume that the makeup would be of individuals who have knowledge of the marine, rail and aviation industries. We do not know how many additional members would be appointed or what the expansion of the budget would be.

Last year the budget of the Civil Aviation Tribunal was $1.2 million. To the ordinary Canadian that may sound like a lot of money, but to a government agency it is a very small amount. Unlike many other government agencies, the tribunal did not use its full budget. It only used $1.12 million.

This is not an issue of a grand haven for patronage appointments. It is not a tribunal that will expand to a size that Canadians should be concerned about. It is a housekeeping issue of changing the parameters of how the tribunal operates to include other modes of transportation outside aviation.

I urge individuals who have concerns about where the tribunal is going, its makeup or its mandate, to contact a transportation critic member or a member of the transportation committee to raise their concerns because it has not been a topic of high interest to people in the transportation industries or to members of the transport committee. To date we have not heard from anybody with concerns.

The coalition will be supporting this housekeeping legislation. We are concerned that this has been considered a priority of the government and has been put on the House agenda before other very important transportation issues. We urge the government to move quickly on the transportation concerns that have been identified as a result of the tragic events of September 11.

The U.S. congress passed legislation for airlines just 10 days after the terrorist attacks. The American senate is holding hearings about its concerns regarding the Canada-U.S. border.

While the U.S. congress is talking about the important issues confronting its country and the world, we are talking about housekeeping changes that could have been done any time in the last nine years.

The coalition's concern is that the greatest failing of the government is not what is in the bill but that the bill is what it feels is its priority on transportation issues.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I can only echo the comments of my colleague when she stated that the government has been slow to respond to issues of importance. She has indicated that this housekeeping bill could have been passed any time in the last nine years.

The government is continuing with a legislative program as though nothing has happened, at a time when we are facing a changed reality not only in Canada but in the world due to the events of September 11.

It is making some movement in some areas. However it has been very slow. It has not been comprehensive. It has not included all members. It has not activated our committee process in a meaningful way to address legislation that would take a look at issues such as border security and the perimeter of North America.

It has not taken any bold initiatives in bringing forward anti-terrorism legislation immediately. It has not brought a budget to the House to discuss with the people of Canada what the priorities of the government will be and how it will address issues such as border security, immigration and increased resources to find individuals who are under deportation order or are illegally in Canada.

We have not seen any concrete leadership in those areas. We have seen it in the United States and my colleague referred to that. We have seen the house of representatives and the senate committees getting to work the very next day after this event and changing the entire legislative agenda in the United States. It is changing the agenda of other legislatures across the world, yet it seems to have merely a ripple impact in the House of Commons.

I have stood on a number of occasions since September 11 and congratulated the government when it has done a good thing. I have also indicated that it is not doing enough.

We can tell when someone cares about an issue by the time, the effort and the resources they put into something. We implore the government to take this a little more seriously, to set the tone, to change the direction in this place, to bring us together in a less partisan way and to put us all to work. We are itching to make some concrete changes in these areas which in many ways have accumulated due to the neglect of resourcing from the government for the last eight years. I would like my colleague to comment on those concerns.

[Val Meredith, Canadian Alliance, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising some of those serious issues. The most serious issue facing Canada right now is the need for perimeter security which encapsulates Canada and the United States.

The threat to Canada right now is that there might be a security wall built along the Canada-U.S. border that prohibits the flow of goods and services as we experienced in the past and which we require for the growth and the stability of our economy.

That should be a major issue that the House addresses in a very serious way from security, transportation and foreign affairs points of view. When the United States decides it is creating this secure control we must ensure that Canada is within that wall, that we are part of what the United States considers the perimeter.

I am very concerned that from a transportation issue perspective we are not asking how to move goods and services more efficiently and quickly across that border. How will we prevent 4, 6, 12 and 16 hour tie ups for our trucks trying to get goods and services across the border into the United States? Our economy depends on that ability.

It depends on our ability to move deliveries from Canada to the United States just in time. If Canadian companies and manufacturers cannot meet that requirement, the American companies that depend on our manufactured goods will find an American company that can provide those goods.

That is a critical point that transportation and other agencies need to be addressing. How do we ensure that Canadians continue to participate in the economic growth and development of the North American continent? If we are not careful and if we do not start addressing those issues, our economy will be left out.

Canadians will suffer even greater unemployment and downturns in the economy. Those are the issues we should be discussing in the House and in committee. Those are the issues that are important to every Canadian, not the addition of marine and rail sectors to an aviation tribunal. That is not important to Canadians and it should not be the most important issue for the government and the House of Commons.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up with two other comments. One of them deals with airport security. Some individuals have told me they are still concerned about workers at the airports not going through metal detectors but coming to work with uniforms and security or clearance badges. I have not heard the minister address that concern. It is something that has to be looked at.

We have seen that the individuals who perpetrated the crimes of September 11 will go to any means to conceal their actions and participate in devious methods to gain access to secure areas.

I want to talk about something that I had hoped the immigration minister would have talked about: interdiction, sending individuals abroad. We have had an interdiction program in Canada. Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers worked with forces from other countries to expand our security perimeter not just to North America but to other areas where individuals who boarded planes to come to North America might gain access to our country.

This was a very good pilot project. I have not heard the minister talk about extending it. This would be the time to effectuate the program. It is an issue that I raised in committee a number of years ago. My colleague was also on the immigration committee in previous years. I would like to hear her comments about both airport security and the idea of interdiction abroad.

[Val Meredith, Canadian Alliance, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his insight into some of the issues the government should have before the House for debate. I report to my hon. colleague and to the House that the transport committee has started its work. We will be looking at the issues of airport and airline security. The committee will continue to work on that to make sure everything that can be considered will be put before the government for consideration.

The immigration interdiction program was a great pilot project. It had some very good results. This too is another area in which the government should be making sure that these kinds of issues are dealt with.

Canadians feel that these are important issues. They want to know that their government and legislators are dealing with the issues that have been brought to our attention as a result of September 11 and not that we are just sitting in the House of Commons.

They want to know that we are busy working on making our country, immigration system, airlines, rail lines and buses more secure. They want to know that this is the agenda of the government and the House of Commons, not minor housekeeping issues that can be dealt with later.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Accordingly the bill is referred to the Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

[Jacques Saada, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think if you were to seek it you would find unanimous consent for the House to proceed directly to Private Members' Business.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from May 16 consideration of the motion that Bill C-217, an act to provide for the taking of samples of blood for the benefit of persons administering and enforcing the law and good Samaritans and to amend the Criminal Code, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Blood Samples Act

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if there is someone who wants to debate the bill. If not, perhaps I, as the sponsor of the bill, could be given a couple of minutes to summarize it before we ask the question, as is commonly done. There may be someone who would like to speak to it.

[Gary Lunn, Canadian Alliance, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to private member's Bill C-217 brought forward by the member for Fraser Valley. The bill would allow collection of blood samples so that we could protect our emergency workers. If there were to be a concern that in the line of duty there was a question of a communicable disease from contact with someone, a sample could be obtained so that the emergency workers would actually know what they would be dealing with. At present there is no legislation in the country that protects our police officers, firemen and emergency personnel in this situation.

We have to set priorities for who we are going to protect. Following the incident on September 11, which is so often referred to now in the House, we see just how heroic these frontline officers are who protect us each and every day. There were hundreds of firemen who immediately entered the World Trade Center towers to help people. Probably many of them knew exactly what they were going into when they entered the towers, that is, trying to fight a fire some 100 floors above ground.

It is remarkable that the instinct of these workers is to go in and protect people. We, as parliamentarians, should be giving the same type of dedication to them. We should not hesitate at all when a bill like this comes before the House. Emergency workers and police officers in the country have been asking us to pass legislation so that they would be protected in such circumstances. We should rise to the occasion as they did, as we witnessed on September 11. They did not hesitate or flinch. Their instinct was to do their job and protect people. We should not flinch either. We have an opportunity to show emergency workers in our country that we want to protect them and give them every advantage.

I applaud the member for Fraser Valley who brought the issue before the House. This goes to one of my earlier speeches where I talked about a bill coming before the House and how if it is a good bill it should pass, just like that. There should be no politics. We have just had a debate on the modernization of parliament and now we will have an opportunity to see if it actually means anything. All the members of the House will have an opportunity. Are they serious about changing the culture of parliament? That is what this is about: changing the culture.

Here is a perfect example. Members will have an opportunity to do what is right, not to flinch or worry about politics, about whether it is a bill from the government or cabinet, but to look at the bill and say that emergency workers deserve our protection. When they are out there on the front line, in the line of duty, they at least have a right to know if people they are in contact with have a serious virus or serious diseases such as hepatitis B or AIDS, which could have a huge impact on the frontline officers and their families. They need this information. It is absolutely critical.

If I can use the terminology, Mr. Speaker, this is a no-brainer. This one is automatic. This is one where parliamentarians should stand up unanimously to support this bill.

I will conclude by saying that I hope every parliamentarian will not flinch just as all the emergency workers who went into the World Trade Center towers did not flinch. We have an opportunity to show the emergency workers of the country how much we care for the work they do and how much we support them.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would very much attach myself to the remarks of my learned colleague from Saanich--Gulf Islands. He has in a very eloquent way put into perspective for Canadians and for the House the importance of this bill.

He stated in a very poignant and emotional way that while others were fleeing those World Trade Center buildings that were under attack, while others were running for their lives to escape that atrocity, emergency workers, police officers and firefighters were running in. They were going into the buildings and many of them did so at a horrific cost, the cost of their own lives.

Not to put too fine a point on it, the bill brought forward by the member for Fraser Valley, my colleague in the coalition, is aimed specifically at allowing those firefighters, emergency care workers or anyone else who acts in a magnanimous way to at least be afforded the right to know what terrible consequences might flow from those actions. It helps those persons who put their own health and safety secondary to their attempts to assist people in dire straits, whether it be someone who has fallen ill on the sidewalk or victims of catastrophe. It helps those persons who put their lives at risk.

Let me be clear on what we are talking about. What I am talking about is the contracting of a deadly illness or life altering virus that the person who has acted so selflessly may have contracted in the process of rendering assistance. That also applies to citizens. If we are to encourage the values we all hold so dear in Canadian society, such as encouraging people to help their neighbours, encouraging people to help those in dire straits or those in need, I think it certainly bears enshrining in law the ability to later assist those individuals in finding out if in fact they have contracted a life altering illness.

There are so many practical and pragmatic elements to the bill. To reiterate the comments of my colleague from Saanich--Gulf Islands, the bill would allow those individuals some certainty and peace of mind as to the ensuing consequences of their actions. It would allow them to find out, for example, whether they have to undergo agonizing treatments in many instances, whether they have to embark on a process of prevention by taking chemical cocktails that are intended to fight off or in some ways stave off the effects of the illnesses that may have been contracted, whether it be hepatitis C, AIDS or any other illness that might be contracted through exchange of bodily fluids.

It could be the act of a civilian coming upon an accident scene where blood has been spilled. We have to speak in these graphic terms. If that person, in his or her efforts to save an individual in need or to somehow try to revive an individual, contracts an illness the bill would simply provide a legal avenue that can be pursued to determine whether an illness has been contracted.

I very much commend my learned colleague for bringing forward this issue. I think he has done so with the assistance of many Canadians across the country, many who work in emergency services and those who would be directly affected by this. If nothing else, what happened on September 11 put into a profound perspective for everyone the incredibly valuable and important service that is provided by emergency service workers.

As previously stated, I hope all members of the House will neither flinch nor hesitate in supporting this legislation so that it might be put forward immediately.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I echo the compliments to the members from the PC/DRC who put forward the bill in both the last parliament and this parliament. It is a bill that is intended to protect those individuals who, in the line of duty, in the line of protecting individuals, who seek to serve and protect others, are inadvertently potentially infected by a disease that could make them sick or at the very worst could be fatal. In particular we are talking about HIV, hepatitis B and hepatitis C, the three primary viruses prevalent in our society and unfortunately on the increase. The bill is designed to focus on those people who are doing good Samaritan acts or also acts in the service of others, particularly those people who are firefighters and police officers.

The bill has been on the legislative table for quite some time. As such, the member for Fraser Valley, like many others in the House, has done a lot of work in trying to get co-operation.

If the bill were bad, if the bill were somehow going to trample on the rights of others, we would not see the support we see for it from dozens of groups, and I will name just a few today, including the Canadian Police Association, the Ottawa-Carleton Regional Police, the Toronto Police Service, the RCMP veterans society, the Central Saanich Police Association and so on. Additionally there are dozens of police organizations, firefighting organizations and hospital organizations that support the bill.

The purpose of bill is to enable an individual who has been accidentally infected to have the blood of the person who accidentally infected him or her, or occasionally deliberately, as police officers have found in the line of duty, taken and examined. The information would be shared by the physicians treating the person and the physician or the medical personnel treating the individual who is accidentally infected. This information, as medical information, would be treated with the utmost respect and as such would not be shared with the general public. That was a concern of those individuals who in fact composed the bill.

Some say that the bill tramples on the rights of the individual who is sick and whose blood accidentally infects emergency personnel. The fact of the matter is that we have a legal precedent which says that it does not actually infringe upon the rights of individuals. That overarching philosophy imbued within our legislative codes is the good Samaritan bill, whereby if we found somebody sick on the side of the road we would be obliged to some degree, to the extent of our abilities, to help that person. If in the course of trying to help that person something happens where that person is injured or we are injured, we are protected by the overarching belief within our legal system that we were trying with the goodness of our heart and to the best of our ability to help that particular individual who was hurt. Therefore we are protected. The fact that we are protected also means that we are protected from other eventualities that could happen when we are trying to help that other person who is sick. That is what the bill is all about.

The bill, as the member for Fraser Valley has put it so articulately in the past, is meant to protect the good Samaritan, just as that good Samaritan is trying to protect the individual who is hurt. I define a good Samaritan as not only the member of the public who is trying to help somebody but also as the firefighters, the police officers and indeed the medical personnel who try constantly to help individuals in the line of duty.

We do not often speak about how prevalent this is, but we know at it is. There are people like Isobel Anderson, a constable here in Ottawa who has done a tremendous job of putting this on the board, and dozens of personnel who in the line of public service are accidentally infected by blood products. They go through all kinds of trauma. They go through emotional trauma and trauma with their families. They go through a great deal of uncertainty that by and large is not necessary.

The bill would remove that uncertainty to a large degree. It would give them much greater peace of mind, not absolute, but it would greatly diminish the consternation and psychological trauma they would endure if they were potentially infected.

As a physician I have worked in emergency medicine. I have treated many colleagues who have been accidentally infected. In the course of our duties in the emergency department we are continually confronted by blood sprayed out in all manner of ways when treating patients who are very sick. There are cases where unfortunately, people are infected. It does not happen very often but it can happen in the line of duty.

There are individuals who seek to deliberately infect police officers, firefighters and emergency room personnel. This is an assault of the most vile nature. As such, the emergency response personnel need to be protected. They must be protected in that particular environment.

I wanted to address a couple of issues because I am a strong supporter of the bill. A number of people have said that this bill is an effort to root out those people who have these diseases, that it is an effort to stigmatize those individuals. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There is not a man nor a woman in the House today who does not want to see a cure and a prevention for HIV, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. All of us recognize the scourge and the incredible heartbreak exerted on the individuals who are infected with these diseases. Our hearts go out to them.

Reciprocally, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of those people who are trying to help those individuals who have been infected and unfortunately, encounter blood borne product. On balance, the legislative framework within our country today, the good Samaritan laws clearly articulate that it is within the realm of fairness and of our legal system to protect those individuals who put their lives on the line in the service of others.

I encourage the House to adopt the bill, put it into legislation. The bill will give a great deal of comfort to the police officers, firefighters and emergency personnel who day in and day out put their lives on the line.

Given the number of groups in those three professions across the country that have supported the bill from the outset, those individuals and groups that have made eloquent interventions in support of the bill, it is important that the government listen to them. They are on the front lines. They are the ones who put their lives on the line and they deserve to be supported.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before I recognize the hon. member for Fraser Valley, let me say by way of an explanation that while the right of reply is of course applicable on non-votable items which do not enjoy the same length of debate, the member for Fraser Valley who was seeking the floor could certainly turn to his peers by way of unanimous consent.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are on a bit of a different schedule today and private members' business is not normally debated at this time. I would ask for the unanimous consent of the House for three or four minutes to summarize the bill.

[The Deputy Speaker]

From past experience we have put a definite limit. In this case I will take the liberty of saying a maximum period of four minutes.

The House has heard the terms of the proposal giving the hon. member for Fraser Valley four minutes of debate, closing the debate on his motion. Does the House give its consent for his proposal?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for its indulgence. It may be quicker than four minutes.

I would like to thank the several people who brought the bill to this stage. The member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca, who is a medical doctor, has done so much to promote this cause. Both he and I had very similar bills in the private members' hopper at the same time. It was the luck of the draw that mine was picked. It could just as well have been his bill we are voting on today. He certainly deserves at least half of the credit for what has gone on here, both for his expertise in drafting his bill, which again was very similar to mine, and for being a champion for this cause. I want to thank him personally for that.

I would also like to thank Isobel Anderson, who is a member of an Ontario police force. She is someone who has done a lot of service in highlighting the problem. She had a needle stick injury that put her and her family at risk. She pointed out the emotional trauma she went through and how unnecessary it was. The street person who could have infected her gave a blood sample to the medical practitioner in exchange for a hamburger. Her life was changed because a person accepted that exchange. It is just not fair and it is not right that someone's life goes on hold because someone else wants something to eat or is willing to trade that information for something as mundane as a hamburger. She pointed that out. She has done a great service on behalf of all of the people who work in emergency services by showing that laws needed to be changed.

I would like to thank a young man from my riding who, as a good Samaritan helped to arrest and hold someone who had stolen something from the Canadian Tire store where he worked. This 18 year old young man exemplified the best of our community's ideals. He put himself at risk to enforce the laws of the land and to do what is right. He went through six months of treatment with chemical cocktails because the person who was apprehended would not give a blood sample. That young man gave of himself for all of us. I want to thank him and his family for what they have been through.

I am pleased to report that now, after three years, that young man has no sign of any long term infection. He was fortunate, even considering the trauma he went through. Now he is a married man and is getting on with his life, but his life was on hold for a long time because our laws were inadequate.

The last time this bill was before the House it was passed unanimously and was sent to committee. While I do not claim that the bill is perfect, I think it should be sent to committee. At committee we will have to wrestle with balancing the rights of different individuals to make sure their charter rights are protected and so on. We can do that at committee. I urge members of parliament to pass the bill again, preferably unanimously, so that it will be sent to committee where we can wrestle with some of those intricacies. The justice committee is a good place to do that and it is infinitely qualified to do it.

Finally, all members of parliament will be getting an information packet with frequently asked questions and the detailed support from the dozens and dozens of national organizations that have supported the bill. I ask them to look at that in the days to come.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Pursuant to order made earlier today, all questions necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of Bill C-217 are deemed put and a recorded division is deemed demanded and deferred until Tuesday, October 16, 2001 at the expiry of the time provided for government orders.