House of Commons Hansard #117 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was security.

Topics

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Pankiw Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-35 entitled an act to amend the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act.

The title of the bill of course does not very clearly delineate the purpose of the bill which essentially can be broken down into two parts. The first one relates to more clearly delineating the role of the RCMP in providing security measures when Canada hosts international events and conferences.

The problem with the bill is the aspect of it with regard to diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic immunity extends from the Vienna convention on diplomatic relations and it grants privileges and immunities to foreign representatives and members of international organizations. The bill would expand that immunity needlessly. It would expand it to delegates, to family members of officials and to staff. These would be people visiting our country for a few days to attend an international conference and they would have a licence to break whatever Canadian law they want while they are here. It makes no sense to expand that type of immunity to people who are temporary visitors to the country. Not only is there no need for it, there is no public interest in it. There has not even been a request from any foreign country or organization to expand the privileges of diplomatic immunity.

This really begs the question: Why is the government embarking on this venture when there is no appetite for it by the public? In fact, it is a cause for concern, especially in light of increased awareness and the need to clamp down on terrorists and criminals. Why would we be opening our doors to trouble? What this is, is an invitation to trouble.

The process that is set out in the bill would extend to the entire delegation that is coming from a given country to attend an international conference, so there is improper individual scrutiny. Individuals who would otherwise be barred from entering Canada could be given a special visa to enter our country and be exempt from our laws. Those special visitor visas would supercede the immigration minister's power to disallow potential visitors with criminal pasts from entering Canada.

The other inherent problem is that the bureaucrats in the Department of Foreign Affairs would be the ones making these decisions. Not only is the bill needlessly and irresponsibly empowering foreign affairs bureaucrats but it is potentially putting them in a conflict of interest. As the organizers of the event, they may have reasons for wanting specific individuals or groups to attend an international conference without regard to whether they have had a criminal past. I think it is very irresponsible to put that kind of power into the hands of those bureaucrats.

Furthermore, rather than expanding diplomatic immunity and creating a potential for trouble, the government should be focusing on the current loopholes in the immigration and refugee system that have been exploited by people with criminal pasts. In fact, in a five year period, I think 1993-98, 25,000 people who were issued deportation orders in Canada did not show up for their hearings and are on the loose in Canada. That is a great cause of concern. In light of that, why would the government be opening the door to further abuses of our laws by people who will be here for a very temporary period of time?

Over the past five years there have been 90 incidents of criminal misconduct by diplomats and their staff in Canada. We already have a problem. The government should be focusing on that instead of expanding the opportunity for more trouble.

The hon. member for Cumberland--Colchester, in the clause by clause stage at committee, proposed an amendment to the bill that would have required the annual reporting of anyone who claimed diplomatic immunity to be built into the legislation but the Liberal government voted against it. The member tried to reintroduce it in the House but was denied the opportunity to do so. What is even more disturbing is that this is yet another example of the Liberal government's tendency to hide information or not be as forthcoming as possible.

What possible harm could be done? The amendment proposed by the member for Cumberland--Colchester made good common sense. It would have given the House of Parliament and the Canadian public the right to know who had claimed diplomatic immunity. Not only was it common sense, it was responsible. It would have been a preventive measure, a method of monitoring warning signs so we could then bring pressure to bear on the embassy responsible for the individuals perpetrating the crimes. If this had been done perhaps the tragedy that occurred last January could have been prevented.

I am sure members are aware of the Russian diplomat who, by driving recklessly, killed a pedestrian. This caused a lot of public outrage. Even worse, that particular diplomat had a previous history of a series of criminal infractions. Had there been annual reporting of incidents of people who claimed diplomatic immunity, perhaps a tragedy like that could have been prevented.

This raises the point that when criminal acts are committed, there is usually a victim. We ought to be much more conscious and sympathetic to that. While there is a role for diplomatic immunity to be in place for foreign diplomats, it does not make any sense to extend that to delegates to a weekend convention or conference.

The Liberal government is actually enacting a double standard. On Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism bill, the committee passed an amendment for the annual reporting of incidents of preventive arrest and investigative hearings. If the solicitor general and the justice minister see the need for implementing a system of annual reporting of incidents within their legislation, why does the Minister of Foreign Affairs not see the benefit? It is a clear and obvious double standard.

My point is that there is a role for diplomatic immunity. However, as evidenced by these 90 incidents of criminal acts in the past five years by existing diplomats, we should be focusing on that. A system of annual reporting is one way to accomplish that. Perhaps there are other ways we could tighten this. The concept of diplomatic immunity, if anything, should perhaps be scaled back, re-examined or made more accountable. It certainly should not be expanded in such an irresponsible manner.

As I previously mentioned, there is a good aspect to the bill, which is to provide clear authority for the RCMP to fulfill their security requirements at international conferences. Following the APEC incident, it is obvious that there is a need for greater clarity in the role of the RCMP to provide security measures and to be independent from political interference from the Prime Minister's Office. The clear parameters for the RCMP is one good aspect of the bill but it is overshadowed by the very flawed and irresponsible concept of expanding diplomatic immunity to delegates, officials, staff and families who attend weekend international conferences in our country.

We do recognize the importance of the concept of immunity for diplomats in carrying out their work in countries around the world, particularly in countries that do not have the same degree of respect for democracy and human rights that Canada has. While there is a role for it, if we think about Canada and the degree of our democracy and of our legal code and our criminal code, why would we need to extend diplomatic immunity to people who are coming to our country to attend a conference?

The same would go for Canadians visiting other highly developed countries. If a Canadian delegate to a conference goes to England or to the United States, what would be the need for them to be granted diplomatic immunity while they were there? It would be nothing more than a licence or an invitation to break the laws of that country which are fair, reasonable laws.

The use of diplomatic immunity in the bill is becoming distorted by the Liberal government. The concept of diplomatic immunity is intended to protect foreign representatives from arbitrary harassment in the legal conduct of their affairs but not to be an invitation to commit crimes. The bill is even out of step with the government's own agenda. On the one hand the government has Bill C-36 which is seeking to improve security measures and increase police powers. At the same time it has Bill C-35 which is a complete contradiction of increasing security and an invitation to more criminal acts, inviting people and granting them diplomatic immunity if in other circumstances they would not even be allowed to enter our country. It does not make any sense.

It certainly once again raises the issue of priorities of the government. We have a health care system that is very dysfunctional right now. Waiting lists are unacceptably long for surgery and for seeing specialists; and the equipment, it is an underfunded system. Yet the government went ahead with its firearms registry. It has been willing to pump $500 million so far, and that number is climbing every day, into a system to make hunters and farmers register their rifles but it is not willing to put that money into health care. While perhaps we do need to examine our transportation security measures, and the government is moving in that direction, at the same time it has this contradictory desire to expand diplomatic immunity to people who are not justified in having it.

Our country is faced with a $579 billion national debt. The interest on servicing that debt is $42 billion a year. This is highly irresponsible fiscal management. There is a complete lack of accountability on monitoring the expenditures of government departments. There are annual increases in taxes. And the government is bringing in a bill to expand diplomatic immunity.

There are all these problems. We have a crime problem. There is the fiscal situation in Canada with the low dollar and our struggling economy. Yet the priority of the government is to expand immunity to delegates to international conferences. It does not make any sense. It is contradictory to the government's own legislative agenda vis-à-vis the transportation security measures and the anti-terrorism measures. It is simply irresponsible.

I speak today in the most definitive terms in speaking against this legislation. The Minister of Foreign Affairs should take the bill, shred it and forget about it.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, it was a pleasure for me to listen quite attentively to the remarks of my hon. colleague from Saskatoon--Humboldt on Bill C-35. I could not agree more with the sentiment of his comments. He did highlight the one good thing about Bill C-35, that it deals with a clearer definition of the role of the RCMP when Canada is hosting international conferences. Certainly that is a valid issue to address.

We need only look back to last weekend in Ottawa and the G-20 summit and the violence that was committed by protesters here in our capital to note the importance of clarifying what the role of the security forces are when we host these conferences. As everyone knows we were not even slated to host that G-20 conference. It just shows us how often we are called upon to do things like that especially at this time because of the greater concern for terrorism.

As my colleague pointed out, it strikes me more than a little bit odd. Rightly or wrongly, Canada is perceived to be somewhat of a safe haven for terrorists and organized crime because of what I think is widely believed in the international community to be some pretty lax laws. Yet once again the government is moving in an area to allow more foreigners who visit our country to have diplomatic immunity from some of our laws.

What I especially find troubling is that this legislation once passed, and it is virtually certain that the government will crack the whip and all the government members will stand up and vote for it, will give diplomats immunity from taxes and duty on the importation of alcohol. That is especially troubling. That is clearly sending the wrong message. It is sending the message that alcohol consumption, when someone is on a diplomatic mission to Canada, is quite acceptable. In fact, we are willing to help them with that by making them immune to any of the attributable taxes on alcohol. As my colleague said, especially in light of the tragedy last winter, I cannot believe the government is moving in that area.

There could be some argument put forward by the government for something like this if there were reciprocal agreements with some countries; in other words, if our delegates to a convention somewhere were to receive that. Oftentimes there are reciprocal agreements between nations in a wide variety of areas.

For our country to carte blanche give this blanket immunity to anyone that is going to land on our shore is a dangerous precedent. I have not heard a big hue and cry for it across the land or even from other countries. Perhaps the member would want to comment on the idea that at least there could be some argument put forward if it was specific to certain countries where there were reciprocal agreements negotiated. However, to just carte blanche bring in this blanket immunity is a dangerous precedent.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Pankiw Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to address a couple of the member's remarks.

He mentioned the G-20 summit recently held in Ottawa and the violent protesters. This is a dangerous trend we see developing. Quite frankly it is mostly a group of bad actors who are travelling to these things just for the sake of the thrill. They must find it thrilling. They are not achieving any political goal. They might claim to be making some kind of statement but the best political demonstration is a peaceful one. Those who vandalize property are nothing more than common thugs. That is what the demonstrators are.

I find it very disturbing. It is a good thing that the role of the RCMP is being clarified for the handling of that type of demonstrator. Anybody who wilfully damages property as an act of thuggery under the context of some type of political demonstration should be dealt with by a heavy hand because it is entirely inappropriate behaviour. A clear message should be sent to the demonstrators not only in Canada but elsewhere that they will not be tolerated.

We have a democracy. There are systems and processes in place of free speech and political activism. Resorting to violence is not acceptable.

The member also mentioned Canada becoming a safe haven for terrorists and terrorist organizations to conduct staging activities and fundraising. He used the words rightly or wrongly. I want to say that is rightly. A 1996 CSIS report warned the government of just that fact, that the loopholes in our immigration and refugee system allow criminals and terrorists to exploit our laws and abuse our country for evil purposes.

The Prime Minister's response shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks was that we are responsible for people who come into our country and the Americans are responsible for those who go into theirs. In other words, if the Americans do not want terrorists who enter Canada to use it as a staging ground to attack the United States, they should be stopped at the Canada-U.S. border. It was an absolutely ridiculous, irresponsible statement that he made. It sends a very dangerous economic message to the congressmen in the United States because they are talking about increasing border security and controls at the Canada-U.S. border. It is our shores that we need to protect from criminals and terrorists, not a common border with the United States. That is crazy.

We should be looking at ways to free the border and to protect our common shores. I wanted to put that on the record in response to the member's statement.

With respect to the specific question about reciprocal agreements, as my hon. colleague rightly indicated, the legislation is setting a dangerous precedent. Reciprocal agreements would head in the same direction.

It would be irresponsible for Canada, as he said, to grant blanket immunity, to invite people here to essentially break the law and even exempt them from taxes on alcohol. There would be no need for Canadians to seek this immunity elsewhere. Reciprocal agreements would be a move in the wrong direction.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, in an attempt to find out why the government brought the bill to parliament, I asked several members if they were aware of any case where Canada was refused attendance by a foreign delegation or if anybody has ever said they would not come to Canada because our immunity laws are not satisfactory, that they could not break Canada's civil and criminal laws and get away with it and consequently would not attend a convention.

Is the member for Saskatoon--Humboldt aware of any case where a convention held in Canada was prevented from going ahead because people would not come because there would not be immunity? Is there any justification at all by delegations from other countries to refuse to come to Canada because we do not have the bill in force?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Pankiw Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any case of a complaint or refusal by another country to come to Canada because the delegates could not be exempt from our laws.

Just to indicate why we should not have the legislation and why we should not grant blanket immunity, any country that looked at our criminal code and said unless it would be exempt from the law its people would not be prepared to come, is not a country whose people we would want here. Common sense is sorely lacking on the Liberal benches.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-35, a bill introduced by the federal government to modernize in various ways the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act.

It should be understood that the legislator had no other choice but to modernize the act since it dates back to 1991. Increasingly, society is changing; there is more talk about globalization. Over the past ten years, we have seen a range of organizations being created and meeting on a regular basis all over the world. This caused the Canadian government and the Minister of Foreign Affairs to look at this new phenomenon.

Among the various international organizations created during this period, there is the OSCE, the G-8—which will meet in Western Canada next year—, APEC, which met here in 1997. We all recall the unfortunate events which marred this international meeting held here.

One should also realize that this international phenomenon has triggered protests all over the world. We are living in a democratic universe, or at least we are fighting to keep it that way, and increasingly these large diplomatic events are attracting demonstrators who come to voice their disagreement about these international meetings.

Before getting further into the debate on Bill C-35, I would like to draw your attention to the way our Liberal colleagues are behaving in general, which is becoming increasingly obvious.

Since the September events, this government has tried very opportunistically to take advantage of the situation to set in motion a steam roller with, as a sole purpose, the trampling of every civic right and every gain for which we have fought so hard here in the Canadian Parliament over the past few years.

Last Tuesday night, I did not have the time to take part in the proceedings of the standing committee on justice but I was able to take 30 to 45 minutes to watch them on television. As for the behaviour of the government across the way, I must say that it is increasingly more undemocratic, and that was obvious that night. You should have seen how the chairman of the standing committee on justice was pushing through the amendments and also how the Liberal members ganged up and voted against every single amendment moved by our party, and this during the all important debate on Bill C-36.

In Bill C-35, even though this legislation is needed, here again, we are taking advantage of the attacks on New York and Washington. We are trying to give the police and RCMP officers powers they do not need. Our legal system already has all the powers it needs for dealing with these kinds of events.

It is clear again that the situation is being exploited and that the RCMP are being imposed everywhere they can be. They are not only being imposed, but they are being given the authority to rummage around in the personal lives of Canadians and Quebecers. Furthermore, these laws are so important that a time limit on them is out of the question. So we are moving toward the creation of a police state where they will have powers that will allow them to do whatever they want. I do not agree with that.

I do not know what has happened since September 11. There must have been bills on the back burner because, ever since, excessive security measures have been implemented anywhere Canadians might want to show their dissatisfaction with global and globalizing tendencies that they oppose. Where are we going with this government?

Today, we are debating Bill C-35. My colleagues and myself are against clause 5. We will, therefore, vote against Bill C-35, even though at the outset we were favourable to the basic principle. Members have also heard our views on Bill C-36.

This morning the Minister of Transport has done it again with yet another bill. Once again, this is a bill that reduces the powers of the public. He is going to give an unbelievable amount of leeway to our police forces. When the events of September 11 have been settled—one has to remain optimistic—at the rate things are going, what is the Canadian government going to do with this series of measures with no time limits that it has steamrollered through? We will need three to five years to get back to where we were after years of effort.

I would like to point out as well that other countries' laws are often said to be better. That is certain. Once again, during the debate on second reading, the Liberals claimed that this codification of the powers of the RCMP concerning the security perimeter was fully justified and was inspired by similar legislation in Australia and New Zealand.

The Australian legislation, passed by the state of Queensland, is temporary in nature, not permanent as the people over the way would have us believe. It addresses security perimeters for a specific event only. The same holds true for New Zealand. It was for the APEC summit in Auckland in 1999.

As well, the New Zealand legislation set limits on the size of the perimeter, and how long it could be in place. Bill C-35 has nothing of the like. Absolutely nothing. This government functions—and the hon. members will understand this example—like a NHL team suddenly demanding that the league change the rules. Instead of having three forwards and three defencemen, they want four players on defence and one on offence. That would not produce much of a game.

With the bills the government is presenting, and with Bill C-35, this means we are going to turn into a passive democracy rather than an active one.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have been studying further the legislation proposed in Bill C-35. Once the bill is passed and we extend the immunity to all sorts of individuals who attend an international gathering, conference, convention or whatever, what would happen to those individuals who committed a crime while in Canada? It would not have to be a horrendous crime, such as murder, or drunk driving causing death, or rape or something like that. It could be a white collar crime from which they financially benefited.

What would happen if those individuals turned around, as is often the case with foreigners who land on our shores, and requested asylum in Canada? Would that diplomatic immunity, which would prevent them from being prosecuted for that crime, be extended if they stayed here? It is not very clear in the bill. I suspect lawyers might have a field day with that one as well.

This one of the instances that for the life of me I cannot understand why the government is doing this or what has possessed it to bring this forward, especially at a time when the symbolized freedom loving peoples of the western world are concerned about potential terrorists, those who would commit crimes, coming to our land. The timing of this is just unbelievable.

I pose that question to my hon. colleague from the Bloc who has just spoken.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, that is a very complex and very hypothetical question. But, once again, we always have trouble understanding the real objectives behind legislation introduced by the government. We always have trouble understanding where it will lead. We always have trouble understanding what purpose the legislation will serve.

The problem raised by the member may be complex and hypothetical but it could arise. And we do not know how the government might handle it.

As I said earlier, we are about to give the police incredible powers but how they will use them is not clear. How can the police do their job clearly?

Because of all these laws, and particularly because of the historical context in which we now find ourselves, we should spend much more time debating these diplomatic, immigration, terrorism and transportation issues.

There is a sense of urgency across the way that I have trouble understanding. The government is in such a hurry to pass legislation that it is as though the world were going to stop turning after Christmas. But, later on, we will have to live with the consequences.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I will ask my traditional question. I am still seeking to find the reason why the government brought this bill forward because I am assuming there must be one.

Is the member aware of people from any country who have said that they would not attend conferences or meetings in Canada, such as the G-8 or G-20, unless we expanded our immunity to include officials, families and assistants aside from the senior diplomats or that they themselves would not come if this immunity was not expanded?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, obviously, I am not in a position to keep detailed track of all the requests to attend international meetings held in Canada.

But the tolerance and openness for which our country has always been known was not in evidence last weekend. I do not know whether the images of demonstrations, of police conduct on the weekend, were shown throughout the world, but I can say that our image of tolerance was far from representative. Our image took a beating.

Under no circumstances should a legislature prevent people, who could represent added value, from attending an international meeting. It should certainly not be the case that legislation prevents people from coming here to do their job properly in a diplomatic context and particularly from trying to find solutions to the problems raised in these international meetings which these people are addressing.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The vote has been deferred until next Tuesday at 3 p.m.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I propose that we see the clock as 2 p.m.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It is my understanding that if I call the time any time after 3 o'clock obviously we would all lose out on question period. I do not think it is in anyone's best interest to do any such thing, but I will make the following suggestion. I suggest that we suspend the House to the call of the Chair at 2 p.m.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

1:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(The sitting of the House was suspended at 1.49 p.m.)