Debates of Nov. 8th, 2001

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the speech given by the member for Lac-Saint-Louis. It rekindled happy memories from when we used to work together at Quebec's national assembly. He was already concerned about the environment back then, in Quebec City.

Earlier in the debate, a Liberal member stated—and I will cut to the quick—that the Bloc Quebecois was being mean, that it was apparently here to block it, because there is never enough for the provinces.

Could the member for Lac-Saint-Louis tell me what he thinks of the amendments that were rejected? I believe, as he explained, that everyone agrees with the principle of the bill. The rejected amendments, however, dealt with the requirement to negotiate with the provinces.

The hon. parliamentary secretary said that negotiating was normal. Why then was an amendment to that effect rejected by the government?

The amendments called for the participation of the provinces and consultations with local and aboriginal communities, while reducing the involvement of Heritage Canada, which should not be involved in conservation. The amendments reduced the number of stakeholders in the area. They harmonized the regulations with those of Fisheries and Oceans Canada and ensured that environmental considerations were given precedence over economic considerations.

It seems to me that these are very good amendments that would improve the bill. They show that we are not only here to block, but to move things forward, in the best sense of the word. This type of bill must not encroach on areas of provincial responsibility. I would like to hear the comments of the member for Lac-Saint-Louis on this.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think there has been a complete misunderstanding of the provisions of this bill, which are very clear.

Clause 5(2)( b ) says, and I quote:

(b) in a case where Her Majesty in right of a province had the administration and control of any of the lands to be included in the marine conservation area, the government of the province agreed to the use of those lands as a marine conservation area and transferred their administration and control to Her Majesty in right of Canada for that purpose;

If there is no transfer from the province to the federal government, if there is no agreement between the province and the federal government, then under this bill, it is not possible to create a marine conservation area.

What the Bloc Quebecois wanted, and this is what my colleague was talking about, was a complete veto in the case of wholly federal lands or jurisdictions in Quebec. This bill provides that the federal government may act only if it has “clear title to or an unencumbered right of ownership in the lands”. It is therefore only where the federal government has clear title. But if the provinces have rights over natural resources, which is the case most of the time, because the provinces manage natural resources, the federal government may not act without the agreement of the provinces, without their consent.

As for consultation, I will read clause 10, paragraph 1 of which says, and I quote:

10(1) The Minister shall consult with relevant federal and provincial ministers and agencies, with affected coastal communities, aboriginal organizations, aboriginal governments and bodies established under land claims agreements, and with other persons and bodies that the Minister considers appropriate in the development of marine conservation area policy and regulations—

There are therefore three ground rules. We cannot transfer when we want. The federal government can do nothing without the agreement of the provinces, if they have rights over natural resources. There must be broad consultation. Finally, all this must be debated in the House of Commons and the Senate, and referred to the House committee. I think that this bill provides all the necessary safeguards.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, one of the incoherent parts of this legislation is the part that prohibits the use of horizontal drilling. Horizontal drilling is drilling that would occur outside the marine conservation area. The drilling would finally make its way underneath the marine conservation area, below the surface of the ocean floor.

In my riding we do horizontal drill under a lake just south of where I live, called Lake Newell in Kinbrook Island Provincial Park. We also horizontal drill, as far as I know, under a world heritage site in my riding which is Dinosaur Provincial Park.

Why on earth would the government not permit horizontal drilling when it will have absolutely no impact on the marine conservation areas?

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the question is extremely subjective. I respect the member completely for his knowledge of these areas and the facts of the case. At the same time he takes for granted that there will be no impact. That is not what the scientists who appeared before us said. That is not what has happened in the north where they have drilled for diamonds. Lac de Gras has been severely impacted directly or indirectly by the drilling.

We are saying there is lots of room in the ocean. Before this marine conservation area is set up, the province will have to agree anyway. There will be extensive consultations. Once we have agreed, then we can say that particular area has to be protected fully from direct or indirect drilling.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I must remind my colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis that the amendment proposed by the Bloc Quebecois was a very simple one. It reads as follows:

(d) if a provincial legislature has passed legislation for the protection of marine areas, the federal government must negotiate with that province an agreement enabling that government to establish a marine conservation area within the province.

It merely means that when a province has decided to enact legislation on marine areas, the federal government must enter into an agreement with that province.

In Quebec, there has already been an agreement in connection with the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. I do not see why, today, we are rehashing a bill on which we, the representatives of Quebec, do not much agree, and in connection with which the amendment proposed might make things easier for everyone.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the amendment proposed by the Bloc Quebecois was totally redundant, because if the province has enacted legislation concerning marine areas, that is because it has a title to that resource. If it has title to that resource, then the law requires the federal government to negotiate with it.

If it does not have title and the land is wholly federal—for example, aboriginal lands or a lake under aboriginal jurisdiction, something wholly under federal jurisdiction with clear title—how could a province such as Quebec or B.C. create a marine area in a place it does not own? That is the question.

If, on the other hand, it does—which is the case 90% of the time, if not 99%, because the provinces control natural resources—then the federal government is required, according to clause 5(2)( b ) of the bill, to negotiate.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on the bill today. I have a number of concerns about it. It is interesting that in question period today we were talking about the possibility of a recession and a need for spending scarce government funds on a variety of issues.

When money is scarce and the government still has to spend money, we have to look at where we will find it. One area is to try to do something about controlling government spending. The bill, as far as I can see, flies right in the face of that objective of streamlining government and making government accountable.

Currently the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has a constitutional responsibility to protect the fisheries resource. Section 91(12) of the Constitution Act, 1867 states that the federal government has jurisdiction over “sea coast and inland fisheries”. This constitutional jurisdiction is exercised by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which manages and controls fisheries through the provisions of the Fisheries Act.

In a nutshell, the responsibility of the federal government has been addressed many times in court. In the Agawa decision, in the Ontario courts, it stated quite clearly that:

The purpose of the Fisheries Act and Regulations made thereunder, although binding upon all persons, is not to abolish the rights to fish of all persons, but to monitor and regulate, so that the fisheries resource will provide an adequate supply of fish now, and in the future.

In this constitutional obligation to manage the fishery, it is implicit upon the minister that he manage the fisheries resource and fish habitat so as to provide an adequate supply of fish now and in the future.

That comment in the Agawa decision is one which has been reflected in other decisions, not only of the Ontario court, but also the Supreme Court of Canada.

In that regard, back in 1995 John Fraser, a former speaker of the House, a former ambassador to the environment and a former minister of fisheries, made the statement in a report on the Fraser River sockeye. He said:

We recommend that DFO retain and exercise its constitutional conservation responsibilities and not in any way abrogate its stewardship of resources under federal jurisdiction. Conservation (of salmon stocks) must be the primary objective...

Mr. Fraser was saying that the federal minister had this constitutional obligation to protect the fisheries resource.

In this bill I see a wearing away of that particular responsibility. Not only that, it adds costs. What the constitution envisioned was that the minister of fisheries would be completely responsible for fish and fish habitat. That responsibility was his and his alone. There is a direct line drawn between the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and his responsibilities; fish and fish habitat.

What is happening now is a wearing away or an erosion of that responsibility. We see it with the Oceans Act. The Oceans Act puts on an equal footing with fish and fish habitat things like the exploration and drilling for oil and gas on the seabed. It puts aquaculture at the same level as fish and fish habitat. It equalizes and it makes for competing interests for the ocean resources.

I have a serious problem with that because the constitution intended that the minister would be responsible for fish and fish habitat and that responsibility gave fish and fish habitat a priority over all other ocean activities. The Oceans Act detracts from that responsibility.

In detracting from it with the Oceans Act, Bill C-10 and the Minister of the Environment, and I will get to that in a minute, we are putting another level of government into play here. In essence, who is responsible and why are we paying for another level of government when it comes to the management of the fisheries resource?

The Department of Canadian Heritage does not have the capability now to manage in the ocean environment. It will have to develop it. It will have to put in place the people and acquire the expertise to do its job of managing these ocean parks.

By the same token with the Fisheries Act, those responsibilities will have to be paid for. As I will demonstrate a little more clearly in a minute, under the environment ministry, it too will have to develop the expertise, expertise which the minister should have at his hand in the department now.

The question that comes to mind then is what really is the purpose of the bill? We should be asking that of any piece of legislation that comes before the House. What is its purpose? Is the purpose of the bill to protect fish and fish habitat?

The member for Lac-Saint-Louis spoke a little while ago about the cod prices on the east coast. He suggested that somehow by the creation of these marine parks we would prevent that sort of tragedy from happening again. However, that is not the fact. Fish are mobile creatures. They are not sedentary; they move. Simply establishing these marine parks as no catch zones will not protect the fisheries resource.

Is the purpose of these parks to protect the ocean environment from oil exploration and that sort of thing? I think not. It will protect a particular section of the ocean resource. However, earlier I heard a member on this side of the House talk about the fact that certain activities were taking place within 5 or 25 kilometres of the gully off Nova Scotia. That is true. If we establish a marine park and allow the drilling of oil five kilometres off the edge of that park and there is an accident, park or no park, there will be a problem. The bill will not protect the ocean environment from that sort of activity.

Is it then just to establish marine sanctuaries because someone else has done that? I heard that from the member for Lac-Saint-Louis. He suggested that others were doing it and that we were the last boys on the block to establish these kinds of sanctuaries. If that is the case, it is a poor reason to do it. If the purpose is to protect marine resources from a total collapse, I suggest that will simply not happen.

I mentioned earlier about the erosion on the authority of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to manage ocean resources and to manage fish and fisheries. I raised the issue about the Department of the Environment and the responsibilities that it seems to have.

In July 2001 there was an environment document entitled “Habitat Protection and Pollution Prevention Provisions—of the Fisheries Act”. This document claims that the Department of the Environment has a responsibility for habitat under the Fisheries Act, not the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The document states:

The Department of the Environment has been assigned responsibility for administration and enforcement of Fisheries Act provisions dealing with the deposit of deleterious substances into the water frequented by fish through a 1978 Prime Ministerial decision.

We tried to find this prime ministerial decision. What we found was a letter which was written November 9, 1978, from Prime Minister Trudeau to then fisheries minister Leblanc. That apparently is where this authority comes from. It does not come from an order in council or what in normal language we would call a cabinet decision. It comes from a decision made by a government nearing the end of its mandate and which, for all intents and purposes, I think may well have been simply a political decision, or an election ploy or whatever.

The Department of the Environment has taken this to the extreme. I draw the House's attention to an Environment Canada document, which is a compliance and enforcement policy for habitat protection and pollution prevention provisions of the Fisheries Act. This document lays out the notion that the Department of the Environment is already accepting responsibility for the ocean environment. I will quote from the document:

Any interested person--whether an individual, private company, federal department or agency, provincial, territorial or aboriginal government, environmental, health or labour group, aboriginal group or municipality--may comment. Environment Canada invites all interested persons to provide their comments, observations, recommendations or criticisms to the individual whose name and address appear below.

What this document does contain is an actual application form. The application form refers to types of activity and lists aquaculture.

The other place down the hall from here has just completed a study on aquaculture. The auditor general did a study on aquaculture and the government's response to it within the past year. The House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans has been looking at the issue also. The House committee has not yet published its report but certainly the auditor general and the folks down the way at the other place have made it very clear that the federal minister of fisheries is not fulfilling his mandate to protect fish and fish habitat in this critical area.

The bill is not going to accomplish what many people hope it will do. It is not going to protect fish or fish habitat. It is not going to protect the oceans from over exploitation. The only thing it is going to accomplish is to muddy the waters and eliminate direct responsibility of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans for fish and fish habitat and make it much more difficult for legitimate concerns like fishing companies and fishermen to do their business. It will not prevent serious harm happening to our resources. The only way we accomplish that is to provide the minister with encouragement to do the job that he is constitutionally required to do.

In conclusion, I would like to thank my friend down the way who allowed me to speak in her place.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Delta--South Richmond spoke of the British North America Act. I would like to hear what he has to say on the fact that the Constitution, the Constitution Act 1867—since we are on the topic of Canada's important constitutional legislation—gives the federal government exclusive jurisdictions. And it is recognized in principle that whatever is not a matter of exclusive jurisdiction is of shared jurisdiction. So, the environment, among others, is shared, as everyone recognizes.

The bill currently being considered, Bill C-10, which concerns national marine areas, is an environmental bill and must be assumed to be a bill of shared jurisdictions.

I would like to hear the hon. member on the fact that this bill is an environmental matter and its jurisdiction is shared between the federal government and the provinces.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not see this as an environmental bill. The push behind it or the driving force may be to protect the marine environment, but it is a bill essentially to create conservation areas.

The federal government is clearly responsible for the ocean below the low water mark. That is the minister's constitutional responsibility. The member is quite correct in that in this day and age we cannot simply march in and have our will prevail. The provinces certainly want a say, and have a right to a say, regarding the waters off their shores and how they want them developed.

My point is that ultimately somebody has to be responsible. The wisdom of the constitution was that it made somebody responsible. That somebody was the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. There was someone we could point the finger at when things went wrong. This bill is going to muddy that. No one is going to be responsible. I think it bodes ill for the fisheries and the fisheries resource.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague that the bill causes confusion. I would like us to be clear on the meaning of my next question.

It is an environmental bill and this is why the Bloc introduced the following amendment:

(d) if a provincial legislature has passed legislation for the protection of marine areas, the federal government must negotiate with that province an agreement enabling that government to establish a marine conservation area within the province.

This is what has to be agreed on. Given that the jurisdiction is shared, if a province decides to have legislation on marine areas, why not agree to a consensus between the two levels of government as was the case with the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, where the two levels of government agreed.

Should the bill, which seems muddled, not contain the amendment proposed by the Bloc?

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not have a problem with a provincial government stating that it wants to establish some sort of a marine park on its shores. In many ways it is certainly more accountable to the people that live in that province than we are in this place. That is just the nature of the government. I certainly do not have any difficulty with the federal government acting on that request of a provincial government.

The one caution I would make is that act can be complicated, especially in waters such as the Gulf of St. Lawrence where there are competing provincial jurisdictions and competing interests from other provinces. The lines in many respects are not clear there and that could be a complicating factor.

I do not have a problem with the principle of a province suggesting to the federal government minister that it would like something to happen, something that is not harmful to the environment but which may well help it, but ultimately the federal minister must have the clear responsibility to protect the resource because when things go wrong we have to know who to hold accountable.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the interesting speech made by the hon. member. As regards the protection of the resource, he referred to, among other things, the unfortunate experience that we had with the almost total extinction of certain species such as cod.

He also said that the act should go further and include restrictions or means to protect species such as cod.

I wonder if the hon. member could explain that part of his remarks again to make sure that I understood him correctly.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when I commented on the disappearance of the cod, I was responding to the suggestion of my friend from Lac-Saint-Louis that somehow these marine protected areas might assist in preventing that sort of thing from happening again.

My take on the cod issue is that there were too many politics in place in the allocation of access to the cod resource. What was really lacking were clear principles to manage the fisheries resource by. That is something that is still out there somewhere but has not been clearly stated. The minister has the authority but he must establish some clear principles by which to manage that resource. They must be principles against which we can measure his performance and thus hold him accountable. That is the best way to protect that fisheries resource.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville, Gun control; the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest, Health.

The hon. member for Drummond.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see that the government has decided to follow up on parliamentary issues that began during the 36th parliament.

National marine conservation areas have already been the object of two bills, namely Bill C-8 and Bill C-48.

Bill C-8 was introduced by Heritage Canada to provide a legal framework for the establishment of 28 marine conservation areas, representative of each of the Canadian ecosystems.

As always, the Bloc Quebecois supports the establishment of environmental protection measures. We supported the government when it introduced its legislation to create the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park.

I should point out that the Quebec government is currently taking measures to protect the environment and, more specifically, the seabed.

The Quebec government is also open to joint management, as demonstrated by phase III of the St. Lawrence action plan.

Having said that, we cannot support Bill C-10 for three reasons.

First, contrary to what was done in the case of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park, the federal government wants to act alone by giving itself the right to establish marine conservation areas without any regard for Quebec's jurisdiction over its territory and environment.

Second, the creation of a new structure proposed by Canadian Heritage will duplicate Fisheries and Oceans Canada's marine protected areas and Environment Canada's protected areas.

Third, although it is unable to protect the ecosystems in existing national parks, Canadian Heritage wants to create marine conservation areas.

The bill is consistent with the course set by a federal government, which is increasingly intruding on areas of provincial jurisdiction. Not only is it intruding, but now it is proposing duplication. In fact it would like to duplicate its own responsibilities.

Is it necessary to stress the fact that the bill before us does not respect the integrity of Quebec's territory? One of the main conditions to establish a marine conservation area is for the federal government to be the owner of the territory where it is to be established. The Constitution Act, 1867, states that the sale and management of public lands are an area of exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

Quebec legislation on public lands applies to all public lands in Quebec, including the beds of waterways and lakes and the bed of the St. Lawrence River, estuary and gulf, which belong to Quebec by sovereign right.

In addition, the legislation would provide that Quebec could authorize the federal government to use its lands in connection with matters under federal jurisdiction but only by order in council.

I would add that habitat and wildlife protection is an area of shared jurisdiction and that the Quebec government is planning to establish a framework for the protection of marine areas in the near future.

It would be in the best interests of the federal government to work with the provinces instead of challenging them.

We already have several examples of co-operation such as the protection of the ecosystems in the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park and in the St. Lawrence River. All federal and Quebec departments have endorsed the St. Lawrence action plan, phase III.

Can the government explain clearly why it wants clear title to submerged lands to establish marine conservation areas?

Can it give us assurances and commit to respecting Quebec's land claims? Or is it going to ignore them as usual and establish marine areas wherever it sees fit?

It is our opinion that the mirror legislation which established the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park must serve as the model. It provides that both levels of governments, in Quebec City and Ottawa, continue to exercise their respective jurisdictions. There was no transfer of lands. The co-ordinating committee, which was struck to recommend to the minister responsible measures to reach the management plan objectives, encourages the involvement of local communities and is part of a Canada-Quebec co-operation framework.

There are other examples of co-operation. The environment is a shared jurisdiction under the Constitution Act 1867, and Quebec's jurisdiction is also recognized in the British North America Act, 1867.

By rejecting the concept of co-operation and by imposing title to the territory as an essential condition for the creation of marine conservation areas, the federal government is disregarding Quebec's jurisdiction over the environment, a further intrusion into areas of provincial jurisdiction.

I would like to illustrate just how complex the situation is in Canada when it comes to bodies of water. I will give an example that I have already given in a prior parliament but I believe it demonstrates just how complex the issues of jurisdiction are in relation to bodies of water, and the duplication between the federal and provincial governments.

Take the example of a fisherman who wants to go fishing on the St. Lawrence River. So far, so good. This fisherman has to ask the provincial government for a fishing licence.

He fishes on a boat he purchased in Quebec but on which he obviously paid a federal tax and a provincial tax. In order to launch his boat he must register it with the federal government.

Up to this point, everything is fine but before launching his boat he gets ready on the shore. He is on a territory under Quebec jurisdiction since the shores come under provincial jurisdiction.

However, the moment he launches his boat he changes jurisdiction because his boat is now on water, which comes under federal jurisdiction.

However, for clarity I must say that the bottom of the river is still under provincial jurisdiction. The fish that swims in the water and that the fisherman will try to catch is, unknowingly, under federal jurisdiction. But its friend, the crab, which is crawling on the bottom of the river, is under shared jurisdiction, even though the bottom of the river is still under provincial jurisdiction.

Once it is harvested, the fish that swims in federal waters will end up at the bottom of a boat. Then it falls under provincial jurisdiction. One must pay very close attention to the regulations, since there are federal quotas for those fish.

If we are talking about commercial fishing, there are federal and provincial laws and regulations regarding food, the environment, safety, equipment and so on. Do members understand? It is very complicated, is it not?

It is even hard for us to find our way through all this, so members can imagine how lost the average citizen who is not familiar with all these jurisdictions feels when he is told to get a licence.

[An hon. member]

But fishers know how to cook fish.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

As my colleague just said, fishers know how to cook fish.

As if that was not enough, Bill C-10 would create duplication within the federal government through Canadian Heritage, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Environment Canada, which is why I said earlier that it was duplicating its own responsibilities.

There is good reason to be confused. The federal government wants to create marine conservation areas through Canadian Heritage, marine protected areas through Fisheries and Oceans Canada and, on top of that, marine wildlife areas through Environment Canada.

As shown in the example I gave a few moments ago, a particular site could have several designations. Why would Canadian Heritage want to create marine conservation areas?

We must go back to the preamble to the bill, where these reasons are listed:

—[protect] natural, self-regulating marine ecosystems ... for the maintenance of biological diversity;

establish a system of marine conservation areas that are representative—

ensure that Canada contributes to international efforts for the establishment of a worldwide network of representative marine protected areas,

provide opportunities for the people of Canada and of the world to appreciate and enjoy Canada's natural and cultural marine heritage,

provide opportunities... for the ecologically sustainable use of marine resources for the lasting benefit of coastal communities;

At Fisheries and Oceans Canada these are called marine protection zones. It use, a different terminology. In January 1997, a discussion paper entitled “An Approach to the Establishment and Management of Marine Protected Areas under the Oceans Act” specified the objectives of these zones: to protect fishery resources, commercial and others, including marine mammals and their habitats, unique habitats, marine areas of high biodiversity or biological productivity and any other marine resource.

The government likes to say that local communities will play a major role in the establishment of marine protection areas. Could the government tell us to how many information and organization meetings local people were invited to attend to satisfy its bureaucracy?

Let us keep going. As for Environment Canada, it proposes the establishment of what will likely be called marine nature areas. Drafters have a lot of imagination. In fact, these areas are an extension of the concept of national wildlife areas beyond the territorial sea to the 200 mile limit.

This is clear as mud. Complicated, is it not? Even Fisheries and Oceans Canada officials came to the conclusion that the different terms used generate a great deal of confusion among stakeholders regarding the various federal programs on protected marine areas: marine protection zones, national marine conservation areas and wildlife marine reserves. Why do the departments concerned not harmonize their efforts and co-operate in establishing these protected marine areas?

Would it not be preferable to have one, not three but one, department responsible for managing the protection of ecosystems, and would it not be preferable for the departments concerned to sign a framework agreement and delegate their respective responsibilities to that department? This government really likes to keep things simple.

Other sources of confusion? As if this was not enough. The bill provides that each federal department will keep its jurisdictions over marine conservation areas. The result is worse than in my story about the fisher. When Heritage Canada deems appropriate to do so, it can make regulations on a marine conservation area that differ from existing provisions, subject to the agreement of the minister concerned.

This change takes precedence over any other regulations made under the Fisheries Act, the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act, the Canada Shipping Act, the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act, the Navigable Waters Protection Act, or the Aeronautics Act.

I think that is plenty of confusion. It is enough to cause bloody chaos. Just reading it, one is aware of the increase in the coefficient of complication when this applies. To list them again: marine protected areas, marine wildlife areas and marine conservation areas, each with their own regulations, and then on top of that, the regulations superimposed by Heritage Canada. One can easily get lost.

Now let us look a little more closely at Heritage Canada's ability to protect the ecosystems of its existing national parks.

In 1996, the auditor general pointed out that Parks Canada's biophysical data were incomplete, or to put it more bluntly just not up to date, except for the Mauricie National Park. According to him, the department has not monitored ecological conditions in any regular and ongoing way.

The management plan for 18 of the national parks was 12 years old, whereas it was supposed to be reviewed every five years. During his visits, he became aware that there was no connection between the parks' business plans and their management plans. What is more, the management plans placed more emphasis on economic and social factors than on ecological ones.

There is also the marketing plan, which is aimed at drawing more visitors to national parks. The auditor general is concerned about Parks Canada's ability to preserve ecological integrity in national parks and to ensure sustainable park use.

People will understand, in the light of this unfortunate discovery, that we have little faith in Parks Canada's ability to preserve marine conservation areas, since it does not seem to have the resources to protect existing national parks.

In conclusion, the Bloc Quebecois would like the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park to serve as an example. This way, each time a new conservation area is to be established, the federal government would have to negotiate a partnership with Quebec. It must accept the principle that nothing is done without the agreement of the provinces concerned.

The opposition parties have proposed a whole series of amendments to prevent the federal government from acting unilaterally, but the government rejected them all.

The bill is another attack, another foray into the jurisdictions of Quebec and the other provinces, when they are involved. Quebec cannot function in this system. We have clearly demonstrated our openness to the federal government, particularly in the management of the marine area of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. It is sad and regrettable that this government has not learned the lesson.

This is why we continue to oppose Bill C-10, given that the Bloc's amendment was rejected and that we consider the improvements made are insufficient. Quebec's lands are not for sale.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the remarks by the hon. member for Drummond. I was closely involved in the creation of the Saguenay marine park. I signed the agreement in 1987, I think it was, for $10 million. It was signed with the Progressive Conservative government of the day, which launched the negotiations for the Saguenay marine park.

I am therefore very up on how this works. It is not correct to say today that this bill will not protect provincial jurisdictions. We rejected the Bloc Quebecois' amendment because it was redundant. Clause 5, if the member reads it, has three parts.

The first part provides that the federal government may not establish a marine conservation area unless it has complete and indisputable jurisdiction over the lands in question. For example, in the case of the Arctic Ocean, who has jurisdiction?

The second part provides for the case where a province has the administration and control of the lands. This is true in 90%, if not 99%, of cases. I agree with the member that the seabed belongs to the province. The federal government may not act without the express signed agreement of the province.

The third part of clause 5 says “the requirements of any applicable land claim agreement respecting the establishment of the marine conservation area have been fulfilled”.

It is therefore completely incorrect to say that, tomorrow morning, the federal government can establish a marine conservation area in British Columbia, Quebec or anywhere else without the agreement of the province. One need only take a look at what happened with the Saguenay. It was clear that Quebec had control of the lands and that an agreement was required. One can see what happened in British Columbia with Gwaii Hannas. The government of British Columbia had to sign an agreement. There is the example of Newfoundland where there was no agreement and the marine conservation area was not established.

I ask the member if she can show me where in the bill it says that the federal government can override the right a province which has control of its lands. Where does it say that? If she can tell me right now, I will agree. Can she tell me where she sees this in the bill? I have the bill here with me. Perhaps she could tell me where she saw it.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is strange to see that this government is so interested in marine areas, that it is such an important issue for this government. Let us not forget that the idea of passing mirror legislation with regard to the Saguenay-St. Lawrence marine park came from the government of Quebec.

The federal government thought it was a good idea and decided to copy it. So it included in its bill, as a condition for the establishment of a marine conservation area, that the federal government must own the lands where such marine conservation area is to be established.

So, unless one does not know how to read or is completely dumb, it seems to me that an essential condition for the establishment of a marine conservation area is that the federal government must own the lands where the marine conservation area is to be established.

This condition was not in the Saguenay marine park mirror legislation. In that case, we saw good co-operation between the federal government and the Quebec government. Everything was done through joint management, which we do not see in this bill.

Moreover, there is all this overlapping between the various departments I mentioned earlier. They are invading one another's areas of responsibility. It is so confusing. And, on top of that, the provinces would have to give up part of their lands so that the federal government can once again encroach on our jurisdiction.

This is typical of this government. Since we came here in 1993, it has been trying, in a roundabout way, to interfere in provincial jurisdictions. It needs all these powers to achieve the status of supranational government. It does everything it can to try to take away chunks of each province's territory and jurisdiction. We are not surprised to see the government impose a condition for the establishment of marine conservation areas. This is such an insidious way of getting what it wants. Canadian Heritage is using marine conservation areas to take away a chunk of Quebec's territory. We are not fooled.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member did not answer my question. Could she tell me in which clause I can find what she mentioned?

There are three parts to her remarks: first, the federal government does not want to establish marine areas without having full title; second, when dealing with provincial lands, the federal government must have the agreement of the province. This is exactly what happened in the Saguenay.

In which clause did the member see that the government can go ahead without the provinces' agreement? It is absolutely not true.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to my government colleague, we do know that he is not neutral in this whole story. He is very partisan. He has that reputation.

Perhaps I could ask him a question. Can his government give us some assurances and commit to respecting Quebec's land claims or is it going to ignore them as usual and establish marine areas wherever it sees fit?

Let the federal government prove that it is going to respect Quebec's land claims. As things stand now, there is nothing in the bill in this respect. The onus is on the government, not on the opposition.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the question I want to put to my colleague from Drummond flows from the comments made by the member for Lac-Saint-Louis.

The Bloc's amendment was simple. I will read it again:

In the event a provincial legislature has passed legislation to protect marine areas, the federal government must negotiate an agreement with the province in question to permit the federal government to set up a marine conservation area in the province.

This is the objective. If the province has legislation, the federal government must negotiate with the province. The member for Lac-Saint-Louis is telling us that if the provincial government has lands, it is going to have to negotiate with the federal government. Obviously, nobody is going to establish a marine area on lands belonging to Quebec.

One thing is certain though. What we are asking regarding this bill—and this is my question to my colleague—is for the federal government to recognize the legislation of the province and agree to negotiate with the province, when the latter has passed legislation. This was the objective of the Bloc's amendment and this is what the member for Lac-Saint-Louis and his government do not want to give us.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the House that the Constitution Act, 1867 recognizes that the management and sale of crown land are matters of exclusive provincial jurisdiction ant that the Quebec legislation on crown lands applies to all crown lands in Quebec, including the beds of waterways and lakes and the bed of the St. Lawrence river, estuary and gulf, which belong to Quebec by sovereign right.

I would like this government to assure us that it will respect the territories. To create the marine areas, it will need part of the territory. It cannot do otherwise.

We will never accept to surrender our lands to the federal government, so that it can meddle further in our affairs and intrude on our jurisdictions.

I urge this government to abide by the Constitution Act, 1867.

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, one problem with the bill is the jurisdictional aspect. Where there is provincial jurisdiction the province would have a great deal of input. However there are some major jurisdictional disputes over the seabed off the west coast of Canada. This is where we will run into problems in the long term. They are concerns for my colleagues down the road in this regard.

Given the lack of clarity over jurisdiction in some provinces, how does the hon. member feel about my amendment to the bill at third reading which would see the bill go back to the heritage committee to be amended to include a provincial veto. Does the member agree that the bill needs to include stronger provincial powers before it becomes law?

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I totally agree with the member. I would like to repeat what I said in my speech, that the protection of habitats and fauna is a matter of joint jurisdiction, and that the Government of Quebec plans to establish a framework for the protection of marine areas in the near future.

Therefore, it would be in the best interests of the federal government to agree to work in co-operation with all provinces instead of challenging them.